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Thread started 09/21/21 7:32am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Gender Pronouns...

and Gender Neutral discussion.




have you had any kind of interaction that dealt with the use of gender pronouns directly or indirectly?

I had one back in June where I reached out to a new vendor and in his email reply signature was (He/Him)




Why Gender Pronouns Are Becoming a Big Deal at Work

More people—and companies—seek to show support for transgender and nonbinary co-workers, so the practice of adding pronouns to email signatures and personal profiles is taking off

im-401148?width=860&height=573

Gender pronouns are showing up at work in email signatures, LinkedIn, Slack and Zoom.

ILLUSTRATION: PETER STRAIN
By
Te-Ping Chen
Sept. 16, 2021 9:00 am ET

When Justin Trowbridge comes to work at Columbia Sportswear Co., the Lancaster, Pa.-based store manager wears his commitment to diversity on his nametag. Instead of just reading “Justin,” the 28-year-old’s badge also includes the words “he/him/his.”

Why Gender Pronouns Are B...Work - WSJ

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #1 posted 09/21/21 8:25am

EmmaMcG

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I haven't heard of this to be honest. I'm not on Twitter or any of that so a lot of these new rules go over my head.

Genuine question, if he says his name is Justin is it really necessary to have "he/him" after his name? We know he's a man because Justin is a man's name. Like, I could understand if his name was Blair or something. I'd still think it odd that he'd feel the need to specify whether he's male or female but maybe he's had misunderstandings in the past or something. But I've never heard of any girls called Justin.
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Reply #2 posted 09/21/21 9:03am

TweetyV6

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OldFriends4Sale said:

Why Gender Pronouns Are Becoming a Big Deal at Work


Fuck this shit. I will refuse such bullshit untill I die

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #3 posted 09/21/21 10:13am

RichardS

TweetyV6 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Why Gender Pronouns Are Becoming a Big Deal at Work


Fuck this shit. I will refuse such bullshit untill I die

So will we.

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Reply #4 posted 09/21/21 10:34am

TrivialPursuit

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EmmaMcG said:

I haven't heard of this to be honest. I'm not on Twitter or any of that so a lot of these new rules go over my head. Genuine question, if he says his name is Justin is it really necessary to have "he/him" after his name? We know he's a man because Justin is a man's name. Like, I could understand if his name was Blair or something. I'd still think it odd that he'd feel the need to specify whether he's male or female but maybe he's had misunderstandings in the past or something. But I've never heard of any girls called Justin.


It's not about the gender-association of the name or assuming we know if someone is male or female by their name. Sure, there is Pat, Robin, Sean, Bobby/i, Randi/y, Blair, Kris, and so on that feel gender neutral. But we're not talking about someone's name.

It's about how he/she/they feel inside and how they think. People who are non-binary may be born physically male. But inside, they feel as much female as they do male. Or maybe they don't strongly feel either, and are somewhere in between - ergo non-binary. Same with someone born female. They may not adhere to all things female in their head. Their actions or reactions are those of just someone who is having a different experience than you, a female. (Or in the other case as me, a male.)

There are people who were born, look, and present male. Maybe they even have beards, and a lot of body hair. But they don't necessarily feel like they're all male. They're not stuck in that "males do this or look like this" category. They feel outside of that gender. And being non-binary (meaning only two, male or female), they don't feel particularly female either.

So while someone can be named Justin, the name given at birth and totally out of their control as a newborn, how they're wired and their experiences in life that have helped them explore their gender and personality is why people put he/him, she/her, them/they after their name. Sometimes, it's just because they want to be clear, not a big issue. But for non-binary or gender-neutral people, it's more important. Also, seeing cis-gendered people (those who were born male and fully identify as male; same for females) put their pronouns up lets the non-binary person know, "Hey, someone gets it. I'm not the only one having to announce myself in a room of people." (theoretically speaking; no one walks in a room and saying, "MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM!"

I know folks think "Oh God, now this? Fuck that!" That tells you a lot about a person. It's not much different than using someone's name. We have to sorta train ourselves to remember someone's name, first or last, so remembering that someone prefers to be called them/they as a pronoun is just part of that. We may slip up, and most times that person is forgiving when they know you're still trying to concrete them in your head. It's no different than accidentally calling someone the wrong name. It happens. But we eventually call a person by their name because we want to respect them, be respected by them, and frankly have them answer when we call on them.

It's kinda funny because we so often refer to someone as "they" anyway. "You won't believe what they did when they opened their present!" We're not talking about a large group of people simultaneously opening gifts. It's just a way we speak.

When you refuse to address someone as they wish to be addressed, it's ignorant and disrespectful. If someone introduces themselves as Robert, but you insist in calling them "Bob," despite them saying, "I prefer Robert, please," than the "Bob" caller is an asshole. I'm Ernest, and when people assume they can shorten by name to Ernie, I let them know I prefer Ernest. If they continue to try to get my goat or just because they think it's better for them, it immediately puts them in a place where I'll likely ignore them. They're disrespectful, and I can't be bothered with folks like that. Doesn't anger me. If anything, it lets me know right away who that person is. It's like when Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I think, "Oh, you're an asshole. I believe you! Thank you! I know exactly who you are now!"

No one gets the right to call someone else out of their name or identity.

Remember, for everyone, sexuality is who you go to bed with, gender is who you wake up as.

[Edited 9/21/21 10:37am]

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #5 posted 09/21/21 11:48am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Cartoon Network Tells Children
‘There Are Many Gender Identities’

Dec 16, 2020 DailyWire.com

the Cartoon Network is now telling kids about the many different “gender identities” they can partake in.

In a social media post on Monday, the children’s channel shared a comic strip about the supposed importance of not guessing someone’s pronoun or gender identity based on appearance.

“Here’s to not only normalizing gender pronouns, but respecting them, too. Whether you use he/she/them or something else, we acknowledge and LOVE you!” Cartoon Network captioned the post.

“Gender pronouns describe a person’s gender identity,” says one comic strip. “Examples of pronouns are she/her, they/them, and ze/zir. A lot of people are learning about gender. If you’re comfortable, you can share your own pronouns.”

Another comic featured two characters teaching a girl about different pronouns like “they/them.” “I’m Alex! Mine are they/them too! I feel seen,” one character says.

“Using someone’s pronouns shows respect. We all need to be seen and loved for who we are,” says the final comic strip.

“LANGUAGE IS OFTEN A REFLECTION OF CULTURE, and when unchecked, can be used to perpetuate violence and oppression,” said the toolkit. “Words have the power to reinforce stereotypes, marginalize the most vulnerable among us, and support harmful ideas about race, gender, sexual orientation and gender identity, socioeconomic status, and other factors. Language also has the power to be a revolutionary tool in dismantling existing power structures. Language has the capacity to liberate and empower.”


“The Words Matter Gender Justice Toolkit is designed to facilitate uncomfortable and, at times, difficult conversations that can save lives,” it continued. “This specific toolkit has been designed with the goal of ensuring gender justice in mind, which means ending the violence that Black women and girls—both cisgender and transgender, as well as gender non-conforming people— experience simply as a result of who they are and how they exist in the world.”

...

Cartoon Network Tells Chi...Daily Wire


Image

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #6 posted 09/21/21 2:13pm

EmmaMcG

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TrivialPursuit said:



EmmaMcG said:


I haven't heard of this to be honest. I'm not on Twitter or any of that so a lot of these new rules go over my head. Genuine question, if he says his name is Justin is it really necessary to have "he/him" after his name? We know he's a man because Justin is a man's name. Like, I could understand if his name was Blair or something. I'd still think it odd that he'd feel the need to specify whether he's male or female but maybe he's had misunderstandings in the past or something. But I've never heard of any girls called Justin.


It's not about the gender-association of the name or assuming we know if someone is male or female by their name. Sure, there is Pat, Robin, Sean, Bobby/i, Randi/y, Blair, Kris, and so on that feel gender neutral. But we're not talking about someone's name.

It's about how he/she/they feel inside and how they think. People who are non-binary may be born physically male. But inside, they feel as much female as they do male. Or maybe they don't strongly feel either, and are somewhere in between - ergo non-binary. Same with someone born female. They may not adhere to all things female in their head. Their actions or reactions are those of just someone who is having a different experience than you, a female. (Or in the other case as me, a male.)

There are people who were born, look, and present male. Maybe they even have beards, and a lot of body hair. But they don't necessarily feel like they're all male. They're not stuck in that "males do this or look like this" category. They feel outside of that gender. And being non-binary (meaning only two, male or female), they don't feel particularly female either.

So while someone can be named Justin, the name given at birth and totally out of their control as a newborn, how they're wired and their experiences in life that have helped them explore their gender and personality is why people put he/him, she/her, them/they after their name. Sometimes, it's just because they want to be clear, not a big issue. But for non-binary or gender-neutral people, it's more important. Also, seeing cis-gendered people (those who were born male and fully identify as male; same for females) put their pronouns up lets the non-binary person know, "Hey, someone gets it. I'm not the only one having to announce myself in a room of people." (theoretically speaking; no one walks in a room and saying, "MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM!"

I know folks think "Oh God, now this? Fuck that!" That tells you a lot about a person. It's not much different than using someone's name. We have to sorta train ourselves to remember someone's name, first or last, so remembering that someone prefers to be called them/they as a pronoun is just part of that. We may slip up, and most times that person is forgiving when they know you're still trying to concrete them in your head. It's no different than accidentally calling someone the wrong name. It happens. But we eventually call a person by their name because we want to respect them, be respected by them, and frankly have them answer when we call on them.

It's kinda funny because we so often refer to someone as "they" anyway. "You won't believe what they did when they opened their present!" We're not talking about a large group of people simultaneously opening gifts. It's just a way we speak.

When you refuse to address someone as they wish to be addressed, it's ignorant and disrespectful. If someone introduces themselves as Robert, but you insist in calling them "Bob," despite them saying, "I prefer Robert, please," than the "Bob" caller is an asshole. I'm Ernest, and when people assume they can shorten by name to Ernie, I let them know I prefer Ernest. If they continue to try to get my goat or just because they think it's better for them, it immediately puts them in a place where I'll likely ignore them. They're disrespectful, and I can't be bothered with folks like that. Doesn't anger me. If anything, it lets me know right away who that person is. It's like when Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I think, "Oh, you're an asshole. I believe you! Thank you! I know exactly who you are now!"

No one gets the right to call someone else out of their name or identity.

Remember, for everyone, sexuality is who you go to bed with, gender is who you wake up as.

[Edited 9/21/21 10:37am]



When I made my post I was not expecting anyone to actually explain it to me in such detail. I was hoping someone would but this is the org so I was sure I'd be met with a snide response. So thank you for your detailed reply. That's a great explanation too.
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Reply #7 posted 09/21/21 2:40pm

IanRG

My problem is grammatical confusion and implicit disrespect.

.

Using "they" as a first person or second person singular pronoun when it is traditionally normally a third person plural pronoun can create confusion until it generally accepted and common. Until then people can get confused when someone refers to themselves individually as "they".

.

There is also the potential for comments being seen as showing unintended disrespect. For example: "They don't understand" can become ambiguous. An unintended understanding could be "those people don't understand" rather than "Kim doesn't understand".

.

If only we agreed on a new non-gender specific singular pronoun to add to he/she and him/her, like say "shim".

.

But language changes all the time and people get used to it - a big one when I was started school was kids vs children where they would jump and down say a kid is a baby goat. Now schools and farms are full of kids and no one bats an eyelid.

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Reply #8 posted 09/21/21 3:25pm

EmmaMcG

avatar

IanRG said:

My problem is grammatical confusion and implicit disrespect.


.


Using "they" as a first person or second person singular pronoun when it is traditionally normally a third person plural pronoun can create confusion until it generally accepted and common. Until then people can get confused when someone refers to themselves individually as "they".


.


There is also the potential for comments being seen as showing unintended disrespect. For example: "They don't understand" can become ambiguous. An unintended understanding could be "those people don't understand" rather than "Kim doesn't understand".


.


If only we agreed on a new non-gender specific singular pronoun to add to he/she and him/her, like say "shim".


.


But language changes all the time and people get used to it - a big one when I was started school was kids vs children where they would jump and down say a kid is a baby goat. Now schools and farms are full of kids and no one bats an eyelid.



From what I've seen a lot of kids these days SHOULD live on a farm because, especially where I'm from, they're a bunch of fucking animals. But that's another issue altogether.


I see where you're coming from regarding potentially unintentional disrespect. It is very easy to offend people nowadays without realising it. But at the same time, if someone has told you that they prefer the "they/them" pronouns there's not really much chance in them taking what you said the wrong way. So I understand the example you're giving, I just don't think it would be a common issue.
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Reply #9 posted 09/21/21 3:25pm

TrivialPursuit

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EmmaMcG said:


When I made my post I was not expecting anyone to actually explain it to me in such detail. I was hoping someone would but this is the org so I was sure I'd be met with a snide response. So thank you for your detailed reply. That's a great explanation too.


I hope it wasn't preachy. My goal was to break it down, give a few examples, and lay it out so it made sense for anyone who may not be clicking into this ever-changing world we live in. I've certainly had my adjustment periods; still do.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #10 posted 09/21/21 3:36pm

EmmaMcG

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:



EmmaMcG said:



When I made my post I was not expecting anyone to actually explain it to me in such detail. I was hoping someone would but this is the org so I was sure I'd be met with a snide response. So thank you for your detailed reply. That's a great explanation too.


I hope it wasn't preachy. My goal was to break it down, give a few examples, and lay it out so it made sense for anyone who may not be clicking into this ever-changing world we live in. I've certainly had my adjustment periods; still do.



Not at all. It was exactly what I was looking for. I won't pretend that I understand the mindset of someone who feels they're a different gender but my mother never understood how I could be attracted to both men and women. It wasn't for her to understand my mindset, I just wanted her to be respectful to who I am. And this isn't for me to understand either but I do aim to be respectful to others who feel different. Maybe if I ever meet anyone who is non binary I can have a conversation with them about it and learn more. Until then, posts like yours are really helpful.
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Reply #11 posted 09/21/21 3:44pm

IanRG

EmmaMcG said:

IanRG said:

My problem is grammatical confusion and implicit disrespect.

.

Using "they" as a first person or second person singular pronoun when it is traditionally normally a third person plural pronoun can create confusion until it generally accepted and common. Until then people can get confused when someone refers to themselves individually as "they".

.

There is also the potential for comments being seen as showing unintended disrespect. For example: "They don't understand" can become ambiguous. An unintended understanding could be "those people don't understand" rather than "Kim doesn't understand".

.

If only we agreed on a new non-gender specific singular pronoun to add to he/she and him/her, like say "shim".

.

But language changes all the time and people get used to it - a big one when I was started school was kids vs children where they would jump and down say a kid is a baby goat. Now schools and farms are full of kids and no one bats an eyelid.

From what I've seen a lot of kids these days SHOULD live on a farm because, especially where I'm from, they're a bunch of fucking animals. But that's another issue altogether. I see where you're coming from regarding potentially unintentional disrespect. It is very easy to offend people nowadays without realising it. But at the same time, if someone has told you that they prefer the "they/them" pronouns there's not really much chance in them taking what you said the wrong way. So I understand the example you're giving, I just don't think it would be a common issue.

.

I agree that it is much better to refer to a person the way they ask to be referred to. The new ambiguities could cause unintended disrespect is less of issue than deliberately disrespecting the person.

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Reply #12 posted 09/21/21 4:36pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Yeah the They/Them is a hard one. I only use those when I'm refering to someone 'not' in my presence.

I would just call the person by name.

I cannot see myself looking at someone and saying "Hey they" and I don't mean that disrespectfully.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #13 posted 09/21/21 5:59pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

IanRG said:

My problem is grammatical confusion and implicit disrespect.

.

Using "they" as a first person or second person singular pronoun when it is traditionally normally a third person plural pronoun can create confusion until it generally accepted and common. Until then people can get confused when someone refers to themselves individually as "they".

.

There is also the potential for comments being seen as showing unintended disrespect. For example: "They don't understand" can become ambiguous. An unintended understanding could be "those people don't understand" rather than "Kim doesn't understand".

.

If only we agreed on a new non-gender specific singular pronoun to add to he/she and him/her, like say "shim".

.

But language changes all the time and people get used to it - a big one when I was started school was kids vs children where they would jump and down say a kid is a baby goat. Now schools and farms are full of kids and no one bats an eyelid.


I think you mean third person singular pronoun by "they". People don't refer to themselves as "they" in the first person, nor to someone they're directly talking to.

Those pronouns would still remain, I/me/myself/mine and you/yourself/yours, regardless of gender difference.


The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #14 posted 09/21/21 7:12pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah the They/Them is a hard one. I only use those when I'm refering to someone 'not' in my presence.

I would just call the person by name.

I cannot see myself looking at someone and saying "Hey they" and I don't mean that disrespectfully.

.

When you have people referring to themselves as "they" (albeit rarely) and replacing you with "they" (more commonly) to emphasise that others should refer to them as "they" it just makes a mess.

.

Refering to the person you are talking to by name is not always possible as this sentence shows - It can be said as "Referring to the person they are talking to ..." where this is instead of "you" meaing you or anyone in general. Replacing "you" with a name here will lose the generic and unspecified nature of "you" in this circumstance.

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Reply #15 posted 09/21/21 10:05pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

If people are now referring to themselves as "they" then the world really has gone bonkers.

We have wars always happening in at least one country, poverty and disease endemic across the world, awful politicians representing us as leaders, emotional abuse occurring in some relationships, intergenerational trauma affecting many, while people snipe at eachother too often in most workplaces. List goes on...

But someone who is either crossgender, transgender or gender fluid is going to take offence if you don't refer to them in the 2nd person as "they". wacky


The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #16 posted 09/22/21 12:33am

TweetyV6

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:

EmmaMcG said:

I haven't heard of this to be honest. I'm not on Twitter or any of that so a lot of these new rules go over my head. Genuine question, if he says his name is Justin is it really necessary to have "he/him" after his name? We know he's a man because Justin is a man's name. Like, I could understand if his name was Blair or something. I'd still think it odd that he'd feel the need to specify whether he's male or female but maybe he's had misunderstandings in the past or something. But I've never heard of any girls called Justin.


It's not about the gender-association of the name or assuming we know if someone is male or female by their name. Sure, there is Pat, Robin, Sean, Bobby/i, Randi/y, Blair, Kris, and so on that feel gender neutral. But we're not talking about someone's name.

It's about how he/she/they feel inside and how they think. People who are non-binary may be born physically male. But inside, they feel as much female as they do male. Or maybe they don't strongly feel either, and are somewhere in between - ergo non-binary. Same with someone born female. They may not adhere to all things female in their head. Their actions or reactions are those of just someone who is having a different experience than you, a female. (Or in the other case as me, a male.)

There are people who were born, look, and present male. Maybe they even have beards, and a lot of body hair. But they don't necessarily feel like they're all male. They're not stuck in that "males do this or look like this" category. They feel outside of that gender. And being non-binary (meaning only two, male or female), they don't feel particularly female either.

So while someone can be named Justin, the name given at birth and totally out of their control as a newborn, how they're wired and their experiences in life that have helped them explore their gender and personality is why people put he/him, she/her, them/they after their name. Sometimes, it's just because they want to be clear, not a big issue. But for non-binary or gender-neutral people, it's more important. Also, seeing cis-gendered people (those who were born male and fully identify as male; same for females) put their pronouns up lets the non-binary person know, "Hey, someone gets it. I'm not the only one having to announce myself in a room of people." (theoretically speaking; no one walks in a room and saying, "MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM!"

I know folks think "Oh God, now this? Fuck that!" That tells you a lot about a person. It's not much different than using someone's name. We have to sorta train ourselves to remember someone's name, first or last, so remembering that someone prefers to be called them/they as a pronoun is just part of that. We may slip up, and most times that person is forgiving when they know you're still trying to concrete them in your head. It's no different than accidentally calling someone the wrong name. It happens. But we eventually call a person by their name because we want to respect them, be respected by them, and frankly have them answer when we call on them.

It's kinda funny because we so often refer to someone as "they" anyway. "You won't believe what they did when they opened their present!" We're not talking about a large group of people simultaneously opening gifts. It's just a way we speak.

When you refuse to address someone as they wish to be addressed, it's ignorant and disrespectful. If someone introduces themselves as Robert, but you insist in calling them "Bob," despite them saying, "I prefer Robert, please," than the "Bob" caller is an asshole. I'm Ernest, and when people assume they can shorten by name to Ernie, I let them know I prefer Ernest. If they continue to try to get my goat or just because they think it's better for them, it immediately puts them in a place where I'll likely ignore them. They're disrespectful, and I can't be bothered with folks like that. Doesn't anger me. If anything, it lets me know right away who that person is. It's like when Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I think, "Oh, you're an asshole. I believe you! Thank you! I know exactly who you are now!"

No one gets the right to call someone else out of their name or identity.

Remember, for everyone, sexuality is who you go to bed with, gender is who you wake up as.

[Edited 9/21/21 10:37am]


So I have to 'acknowledge' how somebody feels?
We, as society, have to adapt to what? 0,005% of the population.

Fuck this woke shit.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #17 posted 09/22/21 12:52am

EmmaMcG

avatar

TweetyV6 said:



TrivialPursuit said:




EmmaMcG said:


I haven't heard of this to be honest. I'm not on Twitter or any of that so a lot of these new rules go over my head. Genuine question, if he says his name is Justin is it really necessary to have "he/him" after his name? We know he's a man because Justin is a man's name. Like, I could understand if his name was Blair or something. I'd still think it odd that he'd feel the need to specify whether he's male or female but maybe he's had misunderstandings in the past or something. But I've never heard of any girls called Justin.


It's not about the gender-association of the name or assuming we know if someone is male or female by their name. Sure, there is Pat, Robin, Sean, Bobby/i, Randi/y, Blair, Kris, and so on that feel gender neutral. But we're not talking about someone's name.

It's about how he/she/they feel inside and how they think. People who are non-binary may be born physically male. But inside, they feel as much female as they do male. Or maybe they don't strongly feel either, and are somewhere in between - ergo non-binary. Same with someone born female. They may not adhere to all things female in their head. Their actions or reactions are those of just someone who is having a different experience than you, a female. (Or in the other case as me, a male.)

There are people who were born, look, and present male. Maybe they even have beards, and a lot of body hair. But they don't necessarily feel like they're all male. They're not stuck in that "males do this or look like this" category. They feel outside of that gender. And being non-binary (meaning only two, male or female), they don't feel particularly female either.

So while someone can be named Justin, the name given at birth and totally out of their control as a newborn, how they're wired and their experiences in life that have helped them explore their gender and personality is why people put he/him, she/her, them/they after their name. Sometimes, it's just because they want to be clear, not a big issue. But for non-binary or gender-neutral people, it's more important. Also, seeing cis-gendered people (those who were born male and fully identify as male; same for females) put their pronouns up lets the non-binary person know, "Hey, someone gets it. I'm not the only one having to announce myself in a room of people." (theoretically speaking; no one walks in a room and saying, "MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM!"

I know folks think "Oh God, now this? Fuck that!" That tells you a lot about a person. It's not much different than using someone's name. We have to sorta train ourselves to remember someone's name, first or last, so remembering that someone prefers to be called them/they as a pronoun is just part of that. We may slip up, and most times that person is forgiving when they know you're still trying to concrete them in your head. It's no different than accidentally calling someone the wrong name. It happens. But we eventually call a person by their name because we want to respect them, be respected by them, and frankly have them answer when we call on them.

It's kinda funny because we so often refer to someone as "they" anyway. "You won't believe what they did when they opened their present!" We're not talking about a large group of people simultaneously opening gifts. It's just a way we speak.

When you refuse to address someone as they wish to be addressed, it's ignorant and disrespectful. If someone introduces themselves as Robert, but you insist in calling them "Bob," despite them saying, "I prefer Robert, please," than the "Bob" caller is an asshole. I'm Ernest, and when people assume they can shorten by name to Ernie, I let them know I prefer Ernest. If they continue to try to get my goat or just because they think it's better for them, it immediately puts them in a place where I'll likely ignore them. They're disrespectful, and I can't be bothered with folks like that. Doesn't anger me. If anything, it lets me know right away who that person is. It's like when Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I think, "Oh, you're an asshole. I believe you! Thank you! I know exactly who you are now!"

No one gets the right to call someone else out of their name or identity.

Remember, for everyone, sexuality is who you go to bed with, gender is who you wake up as.


[Edited 9/21/21 10:37am]




So I have to 'acknowledge' how somebody feels?
We, as society, have to adapt to what? 0,005% of the population.

Fuck this woke shit.



It's not about adapting to 0.005% of the population. It's about not being an asshole and just having some respect for others. You can disagree with the premise all you want. You're free to still refer to them as he or she or whatever the case may be. But if you're going out of your way to address someone directly as one thing when they've told you their another just because you're of the "fuck that woke shit" mentality, that makes you an asshole. It costs nothing to show a little respect for others. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't understand it myself but I'm not going to tell someone they're wrong for living how they want to live.
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Reply #18 posted 09/22/21 4:16am

RichardS

TweetyV6 said:



TrivialPursuit said:




EmmaMcG said:


I haven't heard of this to be honest. I'm not on Twitter or any of that so a lot of these new rules go over my head. Genuine question, if he says his name is Justin is it really necessary to have "he/him" after his name? We know he's a man because Justin is a man's name. Like, I could understand if his name was Blair or something. I'd still think it odd that he'd feel the need to specify whether he's male or female but maybe he's had misunderstandings in the past or something. But I've never heard of any girls called Justin.


It's not about the gender-association of the name or assuming we know if someone is male or female by their name. Sure, there is Pat, Robin, Sean, Bobby/i, Randi/y, Blair, Kris, and so on that feel gender neutral. But we're not talking about someone's name.

It's about how he/she/they feel inside and how they think. People who are non-binary may be born physically male. But inside, they feel as much female as they do male. Or maybe they don't strongly feel either, and are somewhere in between - ergo non-binary. Same with someone born female. They may not adhere to all things female in their head. Their actions or reactions are those of just someone who is having a different experience than you, a female. (Or in the other case as me, a male.)

There are people who were born, look, and present male. Maybe they even have beards, and a lot of body hair. But they don't necessarily feel like they're all male. They're not stuck in that "males do this or look like this" category. They feel outside of that gender. And being non-binary (meaning only two, male or female), they don't feel particularly female either.

So while someone can be named Justin, the name given at birth and totally out of their control as a newborn, how they're wired and their experiences in life that have helped them explore their gender and personality is why people put he/him, she/her, them/they after their name. Sometimes, it's just because they want to be clear, not a big issue. But for non-binary or gender-neutral people, it's more important. Also, seeing cis-gendered people (those who were born male and fully identify as male; same for females) put their pronouns up lets the non-binary person know, "Hey, someone gets it. I'm not the only one having to announce myself in a room of people." (theoretically speaking; no one walks in a room and saying, "MY PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM!"

I know folks think "Oh God, now this? Fuck that!" That tells you a lot about a person. It's not much different than using someone's name. We have to sorta train ourselves to remember someone's name, first or last, so remembering that someone prefers to be called them/they as a pronoun is just part of that. We may slip up, and most times that person is forgiving when they know you're still trying to concrete them in your head. It's no different than accidentally calling someone the wrong name. It happens. But we eventually call a person by their name because we want to respect them, be respected by them, and frankly have them answer when we call on them.

It's kinda funny because we so often refer to someone as "they" anyway. "You won't believe what they did when they opened their present!" We're not talking about a large group of people simultaneously opening gifts. It's just a way we speak.

When you refuse to address someone as they wish to be addressed, it's ignorant and disrespectful. If someone introduces themselves as Robert, but you insist in calling them "Bob," despite them saying, "I prefer Robert, please," than the "Bob" caller is an asshole. I'm Ernest, and when people assume they can shorten by name to Ernie, I let them know I prefer Ernest. If they continue to try to get my goat or just because they think it's better for them, it immediately puts them in a place where I'll likely ignore them. They're disrespectful, and I can't be bothered with folks like that. Doesn't anger me. If anything, it lets me know right away who that person is. It's like when Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." I think, "Oh, you're an asshole. I believe you! Thank you! I know exactly who you are now!"

No one gets the right to call someone else out of their name or identity.

Remember, for everyone, sexuality is who you go to bed with, gender is who you wake up as.


[Edited 9/21/21 10:37am]




So I have to 'acknowledge' how somebody feels?
We, as society, have to adapt to what? 0,005% of the population.

Fuck this woke shit.



You must have been really pissed off when Prince changed his name to a symbol.
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Reply #19 posted 09/22/21 6:09am

TruthBomb

“Everything WOKE turns to SHIT”

-President Donald J Trump
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Reply #20 posted 09/22/21 6:29am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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RichardS said:

TweetyV6 said:


So I have to 'acknowledge' how somebody feels?
We, as society, have to adapt to what? 0,005% of the population.

Fuck this woke shit.

You must have been really pissed off when Prince changed his name to a symbol.

I don't think the Prince situation was about being 'woke'

But I noticed when doing ERA threads for th 1995-1997(?) period that doing internet searches for Prince was a bit chaotic. Hey maybe that's what he wanted at the time Chaos & Disorder

But you can't do a 0-+> search, lol, I tried

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #21 posted 09/22/21 6:34am

OldFriends4Sal
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IanRG said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yeah the They/Them is a hard one. I only use those when I'm refering to someone 'not' in my presence.

I would just call the person by name.

I cannot see myself looking at someone and saying "Hey they" and I don't mean that disrespectfully.

.

When you have people referring to themselves as "they" (albeit rarely) and replacing you with "they" (more commonly) to emphasise that others should refer to them as "they" it just makes a mess.

.

Refering to the person you are talking to by name is not always possible as this sentence shows - It can be said as "Referring to the person they are talking to ..." where this is instead of "you" meaing you or anyone in general. Replacing "you" with a name here will lose the generic and unspecified nature of "you" in this circumstance.

Yes it is messy. It's just not correct grammer. To try to teach that to children who are trying learn who to correct communicate in the world(and that will vary depending on the actual language), it's just problematic..

.

If I refer to someone as They/Them in person it comes across as 'dismissive' which is usually how that goes. Talking about someone in your presence as if they are not there or don't matter.

.

I mean I've thought about it and trying to wrap my head around it, I just think I would end up avoiding someone who I had to do this with. And I don't mean that disrespectfully either.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #22 posted 09/22/21 6:37am

JorisE73

I can't care about what people want to be called, if they want me to call them he/she/it/they/bobo/lala/ironjuice or whatever then I'll try and do that. I won't make a list or take extra effort to remember it tho so I'll mess up alot because I can't even remember peoples names and people will probably get mad and think I'm an asshole. oh well. shrug
If it looks like a duck and all.
This whole gender phase people are in now just seems like another construct for attention starved people and feel the need to be seen. But myabe I'm wrong and it s a natural evolution thing and centuries from now we will all be the same 'individual'.

I wonder how people would react if some white male demands to be called a 'black woman' just because he 'feels' like one.

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Reply #23 posted 09/22/21 6:56am

OldFriends4Sal
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My Friends Want Me to Use Gender-Neutral Pronouns for Their Baby

Dear Care and Feeding: My Friends Want Me to Use Gender-Neutral Pronouns for Their Baby

Dear Care and Feeding,

I am a single, childless woman in my early 30s. My friends “John” and “Lily” recently had a baby who was born male. They have decided to give their child a gender-neutral name, “Sam,” and only refer to Sam using the pronouns they/them. John and Lily insist that everyone else does this as well, because “we don’t know what Sam’s gender identity will end up being.” I certainly agree that when Sam grows older, they should be free to choose whatever gender identity and pronouns feel right to them. But it seems strange to me to insist on they/them while Sam is still a baby, and almost like it’s pressuring Sam to not be cisgender. Just based on probability, it’s most likely Sam will end up being cis, so why not start with that and then change as necessary? I’m not planning on saying anything to John and Lily about this; I’m just genuinely curious, especially since I would like to have a child in the future. Is this normal? Should everyone refer to children by gender-neutral pronouns until we are told otherwise?

—Baby Confusion


Dear Baby Confusion,

To answer your final question first, every parent should do what they believe is right for their kids as long as those parents keep their children safe mentally, emotionally, and physically. Would I personally refer to my children with they/them pronouns until they decide on their genders? No, I wouldn’t. They were born girls and (so far) have chosen to be girls. Does that make my decision the correct one for every parent? Of course not.

You asked if your friends’ behavior is “normal.” I tend to shy away from labeling things “normal,” but is it happening more than it used to? Yeah, I think so. Recognizing a person’s preferred pronouns shows that you care about their feelings and respect how they choose to be identified. In this case, John and Lily are showing respect to Sam to let them decide how they choose to be identified. I’m on board with it—even though I didn’t do the same with my kids.

From where I sit, what your friends are doing hurts absolutely nobody. If your friends thought it would be a good idea to teach Sam to juggle knives blindfolded, then we would have a different discussion.

Genderless pronouns: pare...slate.com)

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #24 posted 09/22/21 7:16am

OldFriends4Sal
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JorisE73 said:

I can't care about what people want to be called, if they want me to call them he/she/it/they/bobo/lala/ironjuice or whatever then I'll try and do that. I won't make a list or take extra effort to remember it tho so I'll mess up alot because I can't even remember peoples names and people will probably get mad and think I'm an asshole. oh well. shrug
If it looks like a duck and all.
This whole gender phase people are in now just seems like another construct for attention starved people and feel the need to be seen. But myabe I'm wrong and it s a natural evolution thing and centuries from now we will all be the same 'individual'.

I wonder how people would react if some white male demands to be called a 'black woman' just because he 'feels' like one.

This is something a lot of my mixed ethnic/biracial friends have been bringing up in a group I'm in.
.
A biracial person can get total disrespect for saying who they are/how they identify and have to deal with mockery if they don't identify (usually as Black). Meghan Markle had to correct Oprah a few times that she was biracial, not black. But I suspect if the person was non binary she would have used the person correct pronouns.

.

There is a woman in the group who apologetic about people who call mixed folk other than what they are, but very adamant about people being disrespectful concerning pronouns

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #25 posted 09/22/21 11:16am

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France Bans Gender-Neutral Language in Schools, Citing 'Harm' to Learning

The education ministry's decree seeks to end the use of the midpoint in words, stating that it create confusion in learning the language.

In the decree, Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, perpetual secretary of the French Academy and Marc Lambron, current director of the French Academy, stated that the use of gender-neutral language in schools "harmful to the practice and intelligibility of the French language."

The decree sent to schools across France stated that "so-called 'inclusive' writing should be avoided, which notably uses the midpoint to simultaneously reveal the feminine and masculine forms of a word used in the masculine when it is used in one sense."

"In addition, this writing, which results in the fragmentation of words and agreements, constitutes an obstacle to reading and understanding the written word. The impossibility of verbally transcribing texts using this type of writing hampers reading aloud as well as pronunciation, and consequently learning, especially for the youngest," the decree stated, which was translated by Google.

According to the Telegraph, Nathalie Elimas, France's state secretary for priority education, said that the use of midpoints "dislocates words, breaks them into two."

"With the spread of inclusive writing, the English language—already quasi-hegemonic across the world—would certainly and perhaps forever defeat the French language," Elimas said according to the Telegraph.

France's Education Minister Jean-Michel Blanquer told the French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche, that the use of midpoints also poses an issue for students with learning disabilities.

"Putting dots in the middle of words presents a barrier when it comes to teaching the [French] language," Blanquer told Le Journal du Dimanche.

Despite the decree from the education ministry, the French teacher's union, the SUD Education Union, issued a statement criticizing the decree and called for schools across the country to ignore it.

"SUD Education demands from the Minister that he stop trying to impose his backwardness on the educational community. SUD calls on staff to take no account of these instructions from another time, and to exercise as they wish, depending on professional situations, the full use of their pedagogical freedom," the union said in a statement, translated by Google.

France Bans Gender-Neutra...sweek.com)

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #26 posted 09/22/21 12:51pm

2freaky4church
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Gender pronouns began in the Bible. God is both She/He and IT. Creation is a she, wisdom is female, violence and power, male. Nature is female, there are plants that are both male and female.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #27 posted 09/22/21 2:10pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

The Bible is about as scientific as Harry Potter.


The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #28 posted 09/22/21 2:49pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

France Bans Gender-Neutral Language in Schools, Citing 'Harm' to Learning

The education ministry's decree seeks to end the use of the midpoint in words, stating that it create confusion in learning the language.

In the decree, Hélène Carrère d'Encausse, perpetual secretary of the French Academy and Marc Lambron, current director of the French Academy, stated that the use of gender-neutral language in schools "harmful to the practice and intelligibility of the French language."

The decree sent to schools across France stated that "so-called 'inclusive' writing should be avoided, which notably uses the midpoint to simultaneously reveal the feminine and masculine forms of a word used in the masculine when it is used in one sense."

"In addition, this writing, which results in the fragmentation of words and agreements, constitutes an obstacle to reading and understanding the written word. The impossibility of verbally transcribing texts using this type of writing hampers reading aloud as well as pronunciation, and consequently learning, especially for the youngest," the decree stated, which was translated by Google.

According to the Telegraph, Nathalie Elimas, France's state secretary for priority education, said that the use of midpoints "dislocates words, breaks them into two."

"With the spread of inclusive writing, the English language—already quasi-hegemonic across the world—would certainly and perhaps forever defeat the French language," Elimas said according to the Telegraph.

France's Education Minister Jean-Michel Blanquer told the French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche, that the use of midpoints also poses an issue for students with learning disabilities.

"Putting dots in the middle of words presents a barrier when it comes to teaching the [French] language," Blanquer told Le Journal du Dimanche.

Despite the decree from the education ministry, the French teacher's union, the SUD Education Union, issued a statement criticizing the decree and called for schools across the country to ignore it.

"SUD Education demands from the Minister that he stop trying to impose his backwardness on the educational community. SUD calls on staff to take no account of these instructions from another time, and to exercise as they wish, depending on professional situations, the full use of their pedagogical freedom," the union said in a statement, translated by Google.

France Bans Gender-Neutra...sweek.com)

.

It is so much easier to use English in a gender neutral way just by being sensible and respectful than to do it in French. We don't have gendered nouns and articles for non gendered things.

.

In Burmese the control of which gendered pronoun you use is in the hands of the speaker - In most cases the gender of the pronoun used refers to the gender of speaker eg a male will say ခင်ဗျား (kʰə-myà) for you regardless of the gender of the person they are speaking to. A female will say ရှင် (shin). There are gendered 1st person pronouns but 3rd person pronouns are not gendered. There are generally no subject pronouns used in conversation. The definite or indefinite article are simply not commonly used except to remove ambiguity. However, as a base syllable/word and particle language, there are gender based particles - An elephant is a ဆင် (hsin) but will generally be referred by its gender - a female elephant is a hsin-ma. In short, you just use the pronoun that describes you without needing to describe the person you are speaking about.

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Reply #29 posted 09/22/21 3:20pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

This is all very silly. Even if you've forgotten someone's name you don't have to use a pronoun, ever. See following.


"A few of us are going to the cinema later, wanna come?"

"I'm going to the supermarket now. Fancy anything?"

"I want to have sex later. Care to join me?"


That's without needing to use 'you', in case they get offended hmm . Of course, if 'we' is allowed and why should it not be? that makes things even easier.


The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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