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Thread started 09/16/21 11:53am

OldFriends4Sal
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Biden announces security pact that would deliver nuclear submarines to Australia

I had a previous thread about China making some moves into this area and Africa. This is a continuation.

Biden announces security ... (msn.com)

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President Joe Biden announced a security partnership with Australia and the United Kingdom on Wednesday evening as the administration ramps up efforts to counter China's rising power. The Morning Joe panel discusses.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #1 posted 09/16/21 2:56pm

IanRG

Just to emphasise: These will be nuclear powered not nuclear armed submarines.

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As background Australia was looking at replacing its Swedish designed, Australian built diesel submarines with a unique Australian built diesel version of the French Barracouta nuclear submarines. In this process, the French have been failing to meet the agreements on time, progress and Australian industry participation. Part of the delays was a result of redesigning a nuclear sub to being a diesel sub. In the meantime, there has been an arms race on submarine capabilities in the Indian and Western Pacific.

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This agreement between the US, UK and Australia has pissed off the French for two reasons - the French have lost their contract and the agreement gives Australia access to US/UK naval nuclear power technology that France does not have. The French will "earn" a 400 million break fee.

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Outside of the obvious tensions with China, the New Zealand government has already stated that the submarines will be denied access to NZ ports (as are all nuclear-powered ships there). It will mean that plans to reintroduce submarines at Fleet Base East inside Sydney harbour will also be cancelled as reactors are not allowed in the Sydney basin - All US carrier and submarine visits by-pass this naval base for this reason.

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The changing international political landscape is at play here. This is a major move by the post-Brexit UK and follows its first deployment of major warships to the South China Sea in a very long time. It coincides with a just-announced defence agreement between Australia and Indonesia - Indonesia had been treated as the country outside of the superpowers most able to attack Australia.

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With China's border clashes with India, treatment of the Himalayan countries, support for dictatorships in Myanmar and North Korea, alliances with Putin, increasing threats to places China considers its own like Hong Kong and Taiwan, moves against ASEAN nations and debt trap loans to Micronesian and Polynesian countries, the situation is becoming more dangerous.

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The potential for conflict with China continues to increase.

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Reply #2 posted 09/17/21 5:37am

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Japan stakes claim to disputed islands and threatens China with force

Jack Newman For Mailonline 20 hrs ago

Nobuo Kishi in a suit and tie: MailOnline logo

Japan has staked its claim to the contested Senkaku Islands and will be defending them strongly against China amid escalating tensions in the region, the country's defence minister has warned.

Nobuo Kishi said the territories, known as the Diaoyu Islands in China, unquestionably belong to Japan and warned any provocation from Beijing will be fully matched.

His warnings come as a new three-way nuclear submarine pact between the US, UK and Australia aimed at combatting China was unveiled, to the delight of Japan and Taiwan.

Japan fears China's increasingly-assertive navy, which now frequently conducts patrols that skirt its territorial waters including with its new aircraft carriers.

Tokyo has beefed up its military presence around several disputed islands in response, raising fears of an accidental conflict.

It has added state-of-the-art F-35 fighter jets and converted warships to aircraft carriers, while building new destroyers, submarines and missiles.

Kishi told CNN: 'Against Chinese action to Senkaku Islands and other parts of the East China Sea... we have to demonstrate that the government of Japan is resolutely defending our territory with the greater number of Japanese coast guard vessels than that of China.

'There is no territorial dispute relating to the Senkaku Islands between Japan and other countries.'

The uninhabited islets in the East China Sea, controlled by Japan but claimed by China, have been at the centre of a long-standing dispute that has plagued the relations between Beijing and Tokyo for years.

They are located 1,200 miles southwest of Tokyo but only a third of that distance from Shanghai.

They are considered to have great economic and strategic values because they are close to important shipping lines and offering rich fishing grounds.

China and Japan both claim sovereignty over the islets, which are under Japanese administration, preventing wide-scale exploration and development of oil and natural gas in the East China Sea.

During a row over the territories in 2012, it led to mass protests in China where Japanese cars, shops and restaurants were destroyed and the embassy targeted.

China has been just as ardent in its claims as Japan, saying last year: 'The Diaoyu Island and its affiliated islands are an inherent part of China's territory, and it is our inherent right to carry out patrols and law enforcement activities in these waters.'

Japanese authorities say that this year alone, Chinese Coast Guard vessels have ventured into Japanese waters or 12 nautical miles of Japanese land more than 88 times.

Experts believe China intends to put forces in and around contested areas.

They are also exerting force over Taiwan, which Beijing views as part of China even though it has never been governed by the CCP.

Japan stakes claim to dis... (msn.com)

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #3 posted 09/17/21 7:48am

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AFP

Australia shrugs off China anger on nuclear subs

AFP 8 hrs ago

Australia on Friday shrugged off Chinese anger over its decision to acquire US nuclear-powered submarines, while vowing to defend the rule of law in airspace and waters where Beijing has staked hotly contested claims.

a large ship in a body of water: The deal extends US nuclear submarine technology to Australia as well as cyber defence, applied artificial intelligence and undersea capabilities© Jamica Johnson The deal extends US nuclear submarine technology to Australia as well as cyber defence, applied artificial intelligence and undersea capabilities

US President Joe Biden announced the new Australia-US-Britain defence alliance on Wednesday, extending US nuclear submarine technology to Australia as well as cyber defence, applied artificial intelligence and undersea capabilities.

Beijing described the new alliance as an "extremely irresponsible" threat to regional stability, questioning Australia's commitment to nuclear non-proliferation and warning the Western allies that they risked "shooting themselves in the foot".

China has its own "very substantive programme of nuclear submarine building", Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison argued Friday in an interview with radio station 2GB.

"They have every right to take decisions in their national interests for their defence arrangements and of course so does Australia and all other countries," he said.

In a series of media interviews, the Australian leader said his government was reacting to changing dynamics in the Asia-Pacific region where territory is increasingly contested and competition is rising.

Australia is "very aware" of China's nuclear submarine capabilities and growing military investment, he told Channel Seven television.

...

Australia shrugs off Chin... (msn.com)

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #4 posted 09/22/21 8:15am

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US-Australia submarine deal: what are the risks?

AFP 22 hrs ago

The US decision to sell nuclear-powered submarines to Australia has put at risk longstanding but fragile global pacts to prevent the proliferation of dangerous nuclear technologies, according to experts.

The deal killed a previous French agreement to sell non-nuclear subs to Australia, and radically bolsters Canberra's ability to project military power across the Asia-Pacific region.

But will it encourage other countries to freely sell their nuclear technology, potentially expanding the number of countries who can build nuclear weapons?

- The uranium problem -

Australia had originally sought conventional diesel-powered French submarines, which are more easily detected and must rise to the surface every few days to recharge their batteries.

Nuclear-powered submarines can spend weeks on end beneath the surface, traveling long distances undetected, only limited by stocks of food and water for the crew, generally a maximum of three months.

The submarines used by the US Navy, and also the British, who are part of the deal with Australia, use highly enriched uranium, or HEU, enriched to a level of 93 percent. At that level the submarines can run for 30 years without new fuel.

But that is also the same level of uranium concentration necessary for a powerful nuclear weapon...

US-Australia submarine de... (msn.com)

a person riding a wave on top of a body of water: The Los Angeles-class attack submarine USS Tuscon in the East Sea off the coast of South Korea

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #5 posted 09/23/21 4:31pm

onlyforaminute

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Well they risked pissing off France.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #6 posted 09/26/21 11:33am

2freaky4church
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Insane. France is going nuts, and it tells China to keep arming more. What is wrong with our President?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #7 posted 09/26/21 2:18pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Insane. France is going nuts, and it tells China to keep arming more. What is wrong with our President?

.

France is going nuts because it lost a contract. It lost the contract because those subs were supposed to be $50bn and now they are $90bn. The first was supposed to be ready for testing in 2032, this has slipped to 2038. This means that we were forced to put in place a program to upgrade our existing subs so they can last longer in our increasingly dangerous environment. France - both the Government and its government-owned sub building company have known their lack of performance has been a concern - this was raised a while ago directly by the Australian Prime Minister with the French President.

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France is going nuts because this contract was part of their plans to be more militaristic in the Indo-Pacific region. Just after the British sent its first large Aircraft Carrier since it scrapped those started in WWII in the 1970s to the South China Sea and promoted that it is helping Australia build new warships to announce its return to this region, the French hoped to do the same with its nuclear-powered Aircraft Carrier and the 12 Australian built Shortfin Barracoutas.

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France is going nuts because it knew that the Australian Government was looking at how China has increased its military, political and economic aggression against India, Taiwan, Japan, South East Asia, Australia and the Pacific Islands, assisted the coup in Myanmar, and how China is building up naval forces to rival the US. France probably hoped that the review would result in Australia switching from diesel electric (D/E) Shortfin Barracoutas to nuclear powered Barracoutas (they could charge more and do less redesign work). It did not and this aggravated France in two ways: Firstly, it exposed the shortcomings of French nuclear subs (they need to be cut in half every 10 years to be refueled, whereas the US/UK subs are fuelled for life). The second way is France has always been excluded from accessing this US/UK technology and this continues the exclusion whilst letting another country in.

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Whether Australia has 12 new French designed D/E subs or 8 new US or UK designed nuclear subs by sometime in the 2040s will make little difference to China's plans - they were already working to have 10 new nuclear powered submarines ready in the same time.

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Why is this the US President's fault? This is an Australia choice due to French fuck ups and the destabilising situation in our area as a direct result of increasing Chinese aggression and threats. Things are very different in the Indo-China area from what it was like in 2009 to 2016 when the D/E subs were evaluated and selected.

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Is this just Biden Derangement Syndrome?

[Edited 9/26/21 15:15pm]

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Reply #8 posted 09/30/21 11:21am

OldFriends4Sal
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'Let us meet in the sky': China boasts US Air Force should fear new arsenal

Joel Gehrke 22 hrs ago

America should fear China's growing military might, a senior Chinese air force official boasted, ominously inviting his U.S. counterparts to a meeting "in the sky."

© Provided by Washington Examiner

The grim warning from People’s Liberation Army Deputy Air Force Commander Wang Wei was in apparent response to U.S. Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall’s pledge last month to develop weapons that “scare China.” Wang said China, which is becoming increasingly belligerent in the Indo-Pacific region, is rolling out fearsome weapons of its own.

“I can only say, if they are not scared, let us meet in the sky,” Wang said at a recent air show.

Wang's boast extended from his own military branch to China's navy.

“The Chinese navy is capable and confident to ensure national security and defend integrity, as well as make a contribution to world peace,” said Wang, who referred to Kendall only as “a counterpart of mine who is from a major country.”

...

“I’ve been obsessed, if you will, with China for quite a long time now — and its military modernization, what that implies for the U.S. and for security,” Kendall said last month in a Defense News interview. “They’re moving faster than I might have anticipated. So, we have a lot of work to do.”

U.S. and European allies have increased their deployment of naval forces in the Indo-Pacific region. And a landmark deal to provide U.S. and British nuclear submarine technology to Australia includes a broader plan to expand the U.S. military presence in Australia.

'Let us meet in the sky':... (msn.com)

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #9 posted 10/01/21 9:46am

2freaky4church
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Ian, we should not sell arms!

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #10 posted 10/01/21 2:49pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Ian, we should not sell arms!

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Ideally I completely agree.

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However, should the French sell arms?

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Did Biden start the sale of arms by the US?

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Is the best response to China'a increasing aggression to just acquiesce?

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It would be a wondeful world if no country ever needed to acquire arms to defend itself from aggressors. But that is just not reality.

[Edited 10/1/21 16:39pm]

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Reply #11 posted 10/04/21 8:58am

2freaky4church
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No, we talk to China. We are the major threat.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #12 posted 10/04/21 11:49am

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Australia sets conditions... (msn.com)

Australia sets conditions for China joining Pacific pact

AFP 9/22/2021

China must end a freeze on contacts with senior Australian politicians if it hopes to join a trans-Pacific trade pact, Canberra's trade minister said Wednesday, setting de facto preconditions for accession.

Dan Tehan linked China's bid to join an 11-nation trading alliance with steps to improve bilateral relations that are at their lowest ebb in decades.

China formally applied to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) last week, and is lobbying to gain the consensus support of members including Australia.

This comes after a war of words between the two countries, a string of sanctions on Australian goods and a months-long freeze on senior-level government contacts.

"When I became trade minister, I wrote to my Chinese counterpart in January setting out how we can work more closely together. I am still waiting for a reply," Tehan said in a Monday speech.

"One of the most important things about negotiating the accession process of any country into the CPTPP is that you have to be able to sit down at ministerial level, look your economic partner in the eye, and talk about that accession process."

Tehan also indicated China would have to resolve disputes at the World Trade Organization (WTO) stemming from a slew of politically driven sanctions on Australian imports.

...

a large building: China formally applied to join the regional trade pact last week, and is lobbying to gain the consensus support of members including Australia

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
“Strong people define themselves; weak people allow others to define them.” ― Ken Poirot
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Reply #13 posted 10/04/21 1:13pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

No, we talk to China. We are the major threat.

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Ask Taiwan who is the major threat.

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Ask Hong Kong

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Ask India

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Ask Tibet

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Ask the Thai and Nepalese oppositions (not the pro China governments)

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Ask the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia and Malaysia in regard to the Spratlys and related Chinese incursions and claims.

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Ask Myanmar who armed the Coup

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Ask Cambodia

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Ask Japan

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Why do you think that we are not trying to talk to China? The reason China is not talking to Australia is because we called for an investigation into the causes of the covid pandemic. Prior to that our relationship with China was good.

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There is a whole world outside of the USA. We in the Indo-Pacific see the Chinese as the major threat and outside of North Korea, China and Russia have no fear of US invasion.

[Edited 10/4/21 13:30pm]

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Reply #14 posted 10/08/21 1:15pm

2freaky4church
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How can I ask a state? lol

Unless you get a kink out of nuclear war. This is why I am a Christian. This world is sinful as hell.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #15 posted 10/08/21 2:19pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

How can I ask a state? lol

Unless you get a kink out of nuclear war. This is why I am a Christian. This world is sinful as hell.

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Shh, I don't think anyone noticed that you avoided answering the question just because you know the answer you would give goes against your claim.

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You just said "we talk to China" - How do we talk to a state? This is rhetorical - as has been shown above - we are trying to talk to China but the Chinese government is not responding because we asked for an investigation into the causes of the pandemic.

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The point I was making, as you well know, is that, in general, the people of Taiwan, Hong Kong, India, Tibet, Thailand, Nepal, The Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar, Cambodia and Japan ALL recognise that military and political expansionism of China as the major threat in the Indo Pacific today.

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No one is getting a kink (sic) out of nuclear war. The submarines in question are only nuclear powered - It was specifically stated that these will NOT be nuclear armed. If you don't believe this then consider that if we built the 12 French designed submarines instead of the 8 US or UK designed submarines, these could also carry nuclear armed missiles as can any submarine.

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How can a planet be sinful? See I can be as silly as you.

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