independent and unofficial
Prince fan community
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > Big Covid spike. Come on asshats get vaccinated!
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 9 of 48 « First<5678910111213>Last »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Reply #240 posted 07/29/21 6:55pm

PennyPurple

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

I don't know why everyone is so frickin worried about mandating shots...they've done that for at least 55+ years. Before we could be enrolled in school, we had to have our shots. I remember the health department coming to my elementary school, and all of us had to stand in line to get some of the vaccinations.


Heck I even had to show my shot records and get catch-up shots for my employer, once I was hired. The flu shot is required where I work also, and we have to show them proof that we received it.


If you went to school in the USA chances are you were mandated to get vaccines.

and I do not know why anyone is so worried if some people choose to not get a shot... what shots have been required? Not where I live... are you sure your kids had to have them? many states offer them.

and wait by your logic why change any laws to give people more freedoms, rights, or liberties?


as of now most states have exemptions for kids in public schools... a few do not respect individual freedoms...

BS, you have to have your shots before they let you in school. MMR, TDAP, Polio and small pox (when I was growing up), whooping cough & here are some others.

Vaccines required for day care, pre-K, and school attendance
  • Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (DTaP or Tdap)
  • Hepatitis B vaccine.
  • Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR)
  • Polio vaccine.
  • Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine.

Every state has laws that require children to get certain vaccines before they can go to school or day care. Yet parents can opt out of one or more vaccines for medical, religious, or personal reasons. Vaccine exemption laws vary from state to state. Some states make it easier to avoid vaccines than others.

U.S.A.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #241 posted 07/29/21 6:58pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

CherryMoon57 said:

EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said: Almost 130,000 people have died from COVID-19 in the UK so far. Plus, it's estimated that the vaccine has prevented 60,000 deaths in the UK according to the deputy chief medical officer. No vaccine in the world is completely without an element of risk. But it's far safer to have the vaccine than to be exposed to Covid with no vaccination. I understand your (and others) distrust of your government and I know that it's extremely difficult to find a news source that's actually, genuinely and completely unbiased from a political standpoint. But you can't argue with facts. We can all go hunting for figures that back up our preconceived notions but if you take a step back and look at the facts (REAL facts) you'd see that the vaccine is by far the lesser of two "evils".

I've no preconceptions... I'm just genuinely shocked and saddened to learn so many died just by getting the jab. Did you know this already? These are the officially published governmental figures btw. And yes, you are right, I kind of had to 'hunt' to find them as they were well hidden at the bottom of different reports (I also had to add them up myself), and the link to these was at the bottom of a long page, so it wasn't a straightforward thing to do... I know the virus has sadly claimed many lives, but didn't these other lives matter too? Why shouldn't we mention them?



[Edited 7/29/21 16:58pm]


Well, there are 71 people who died in the UK from the AstraZeneca vaccine from that type of rare blood clot, thrombocytopenia which is about what, at least 4-8 times more likely to arise from catching the virus. There may be other causes of death brought about by the vaccine, but certainly the one making the headlines was the unsual clotting events. The problem in the beginning was that the spike protein on which the vaccines are based came to be believed as non-toxic, when in actual fact the spike protein by itself is cytotoxic. Obviously a shame when you consider that it makes an excellent target for vaccines, because one, it's on the viral cell's surface (not on the inside like the M protein for instance), so therefore easily identifiable, but also because it's the spike protein elements that enable the virus to attach to human cells.

It's also the case, dying from the vaccine happens quicker than dying from the virus. Sometimes within a week.

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #242 posted 07/29/21 7:03pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

and I do not know why anyone is so worried if some people choose to not get a shot... what shots have been required? Not where I live... are you sure your kids had to have them? many states offer them.

and wait by your logic why change any laws to give people more freedoms, rights, or liberties?


as of now most states have exemptions for kids in public schools... a few do not respect individual freedoms...

BS, you have to have your shots before they let you in school. MMR, TDAP, Polio and small pox (when I was growing up), whooping cough & here are some others.

Vaccines required for day care, pre-K, and school attendance
  • Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (DTaP or Tdap)
  • Hepatitis B vaccine.
  • Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR)
  • Polio vaccine.
  • Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine.

Every state has laws that require children to get certain vaccines before they can go to school or day care. Yet parents can opt out of one or more vaccines for medical, religious, or personal reasons. Vaccine exemption laws vary from state to state. Some states make it easier to avoid vaccines than others.

so which is it? you MUST have them or you can opt out?

"So the best way to get something done, if you, if you hold near and dear to that, you uh um, like to be able uh...Anyway." - Joe Biden
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #243 posted 07/29/21 7:05pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

and even if there were no exemptions that is a lousy reason to support there not being exemptions. I am sure I can list several laws that once limited people's rights that were in place for a long time that everyone would agree were bad laws.

"So the best way to get something done, if you, if you hold near and dear to that, you uh um, like to be able uh...Anyway." - Joe Biden
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #244 posted 07/29/21 7:10pm

PennyPurple

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

PennyPurple said:

BS, you have to have your shots before they let you in school. MMR, TDAP, Polio and small pox (when I was growing up), whooping cough & here are some others.

Vaccines required for day care, pre-K, and school attendance
  • Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (DTaP or Tdap)
  • Hepatitis B vaccine.
  • Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR)
  • Polio vaccine.
  • Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine.

Every state has laws that require children to get certain vaccines before they can go to school or day care. Yet parents can opt out of one or more vaccines for medical, religious, or personal reasons. Vaccine exemption laws vary from state to state. Some states make it easier to avoid vaccines than others.

so which is it? you MUST have them or you can opt out?

Everyone can't just opt out. Like my post said, some States it's easier to opt out. You can't just say my kids are opting out, you have to have certification and the STATE and School board's permission.

U.S.A.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #245 posted 07/29/21 7:13pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

PennyPurple said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

People suffering bad effects from the vaccines are having their videos taken down by the big tech companies. Which is essentially end of uncurtailed freedom of speech. Disgusting. confused


That is not true.

Stop spreading falsehoods.


^ Maybe an oversight on my part. But the videos are very hard to find. And Facebook closes down accounts and groups that are very antivax. Everyone knows that.

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #246 posted 07/29/21 7:21pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

It absolutely IS possible to become infected with the virus and pass it on after being double jabbed. Data's coming in that suggests the Delta variant is particularly transmissible due to higher viral loads, including from people who've been vaccinated. sick

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #247 posted 07/29/21 7:21pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

PennyPurple said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

so which is it? you MUST have them or you can opt out?

Everyone can't just opt out. Like my post said, some States it's easier to opt out. You can't just say my kids are opting out, you have to have certification and the STATE and School board's permission.


not in every state. some allow any or all to be exempted...

"So the best way to get something done, if you, if you hold near and dear to that, you uh um, like to be able uh...Anyway." - Joe Biden
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #248 posted 07/29/21 9:25pm

IanRG

OnlyNDaUsa said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Are you trying to say IanRG is an authoritarian? hmmm

Ian said so himself said people should not have an option to be vaccanated or not.

.

Show the post where I said this.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #249 posted 07/29/21 9:26pm

IanRG

djThunderfunk said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Are you trying to say IanRG is an authoritarian? hmmm


He certainly supports and approves of those that are, so yes, that's enough.

.

Bullshit

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #250 posted 07/29/21 9:29pm

IanRG

djThunderfunk said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Ian said so himself said people should not have an option to be vaccanated or not.


Those that support authoritarianism are as guilty as those that enforce it.


.

And you will be able to show where I have?

.

Because I know where you have absolutely selectively supported the authoritarian actions of the failed coup leader.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #251 posted 07/29/21 9:34pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

IanRG said:



OnlyNDaUsa said:




fortuneandserendipity said:



Are you trying to say IanRG is an authoritarian? hmmm




Ian said so himself said people should not have an option to be vaccanated or not.



.


Show the post where I said this.



So you oppose vaccination mandates? I thought you said you thought they should be required. If not I apologize.
"So the best way to get something done, if you, if you hold near and dear to that, you uh um, like to be able uh...Anyway." - Joe Biden
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #252 posted 07/29/21 10:10pm

IanRG

OnlyNDaUsa said:

IanRG said:

.

Show the post where I said this.

So you oppose vaccination mandates? I thought you said you thought they should be required. If not I apologize.

.

Everyone who can be vaccinated should be, but I never said they should be mandated. This is a delusion of the org far-right extremist hive mind in line with its corporate far right media queen.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #253 posted 07/30/21 1:10am

JorisE73

PennyPurple said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

People suffering bad effects from the vaccines are having their videos taken down by the big tech companies. Which is essentially end of uncurtailed freedom of speech. Disgusting. confused


That is not true.

Stop spreading falsehoods.


No falsehood, there were plenty of people with severe side effects that had there posts and videos removed.
And honestly I get it. These videos that put the vaccines in a bad spotlight are 500% more influencial and spread more fear and doubt about vaccines than positive stories, so I get why these get removed but on the other hand it's worrying that people are censored and treated as if there bullshitters when they are only providing info and warn people to the potential dangers, it's still a choice.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #254 posted 07/30/21 1:31am

CherryMoon57

avatar

fortuneandserendipity said:

CherryMoon57 said:

I've no preconceptions... I'm just genuinely shocked and saddened to learn so many died just by getting the jab. Did you know this already? These are the officially published governmental figures btw. And yes, you are right, I kind of had to 'hunt' to find them as they were well hidden at the bottom of different reports (I also had to add them up myself), and the link to these was at the bottom of a long page, so it wasn't a straightforward thing to do... I know the virus has sadly claimed many lives, but didn't these other lives matter too? Why shouldn't we mention them?



[Edited 7/29/21 16:58pm]


Well, there are 71 people who died in the UK from the AstraZeneca vaccine from that type of rare blood clot, thrombocytopenia which is about what, at least 4-8 times more likely to arise from catching the virus. There may be other causes of death brought about by the vaccine, but certainly the one making the headlines was the unsual clotting events. The problem in the beginning was that the spike protein on which the vaccines are based came to be believed as non-toxic, when in actual fact the spike protein by itself is cytotoxic. Obviously a shame when you consider that it makes an excellent target for vaccines, because one, it's on the viral cell's surface (not on the inside like the M protein for instance), so therefore easily identifiable, but also because it's the spike protein elements that enable the virus to attach to human cells.

It's also the case, dying from the vaccine happens quicker than dying from the virus. Sometimes within a week.

There have been 999 fatal outcomes (up to July 15) from the AstraZeneca vaccine alone. Thrombocytopenia appears in the list of fatalities but there are many other fatal side-effect categories such as respiratories (126), nervous system disorders (180), cardiac disorders (147), and even things put under the 'general disorders' umbrella (343). But even when not fatal, there are still many serious outcomes. And that's just for the AZ. If you visit the yellow card reporting (governmental) page, then click on 'Annex 1: Vaccine Analysis Print' (on the top left), then scroll down a little you will see all the reports in detail for each vaccine in the UK. The grand total (999) for the AZ is at the very end of the report, page 121. It is possible that some fatalities have been reported but not listed in the categories. https://www.gov.uk/govern...ysis-print

Life Matters
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #255 posted 07/30/21 1:33am

CherryMoon57

avatar

JorisE73 said:

PennyPurple said:

That is not true.

Stop spreading falsehoods.


No falsehood, there were plenty of people with severe side effects that had there posts and videos removed.
And honestly I get it. These videos that put the vaccines in a bad spotlight are 500% more influencial and spread more fear and doubt about vaccines than positive stories, so I get why these get removed but on the other hand it's worrying that people are censored and treated as if there bullshitters when they are only providing info and warn people to the potential dangers, it's still a choice.

I completely agree. And as with anything medical, it is very important that the general public makes an informed choice, not a blind 'forced' one.

Life Matters
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #256 posted 07/30/21 1:53am

TweetyV6

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

The UK yellow card scheme shows that 1,490 people have died as a result of the vaccination so far. 1,490 eek


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Almost 130,000 people have died from COVID-19 in the UK so far. Plus, it's estimated that the vaccine has prevented 60,000 deaths in the UK according to the deputy chief medical officer. No vaccine in the world is completely without an element of risk. But it's far safer to have the vaccine than to be exposed to Covid with no vaccination. I understand your (and others) distrust of your government and I know that it's extremely difficult to find a news source that's actually, genuinely and completely unbiased from a political standpoint. But you can't argue with facts. We can all go hunting for figures that back up our preconceived notions but if you take a step back and look at the facts (REAL facts) you'd see that the vaccine is by far the lesser of two "evils".

So what you say is that the 1,490 deaths are o.k. because it potentially saved 60,000?

With that reasoning, which is fine by me, by the way, what about the report from the Dutch Ministry of Economical Afairs and Environment.

They have calculated that the first Dutch lock down, which intended to save 100,000 life years actually has cost 620,000 life years (e.g. by postponing regular medical treatment)

So the Dutch sociëty has saved 100,000 QALY's of (very old) people with an average future life excpetancy of 3 years, but therfore has eliminated 620,000 QALY's of mainly young people.

And when looking at the costs (QALY's are a standard used in almost all countries)
In the Netherlands the standard is that preventive costs of saving one QALY should not exceed €20.000. Mediacal treatment to save 1 QALY should not exceed €80.000

So from a cost perspective, using the guidelines used ALLWAYS when expressing preventive or curative measurements to save QALY's , the preventive actions (lock down) should not have exceeded €2,000,000,000. (€2 billion)
The first lock-down in the Netherlands has cost Dutch society between €7.5 billion - €10 billion

4-5 times as much as what should have been deemed acceptable.
+ 520,000 QALY's (which is anoy=ther [at least!] €10,4 billion

So adapting your reasoning from above, lock downs should never ever be imposed on us. Agree?

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #257 posted 07/30/21 2:48am

EmmaMcG

avatar

TweetyV6 said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:

The UK yellow card scheme shows that 1,490 people have died as a result of the vaccination so far. 1,490 eek


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting



Almost 130,000 people have died from COVID-19 in the UK so far. Plus, it's estimated that the vaccine has prevented 60,000 deaths in the UK according to the deputy chief medical officer. No vaccine in the world is completely without an element of risk. But it's far safer to have the vaccine than to be exposed to Covid with no vaccination. I understand your (and others) distrust of your government and I know that it's extremely difficult to find a news source that's actually, genuinely and completely unbiased from a political standpoint. But you can't argue with facts. We can all go hunting for figures that back up our preconceived notions but if you take a step back and look at the facts (REAL facts) you'd see that the vaccine is by far the lesser of two "evils".


So what you say is that the 1,490 deaths are o.k. because it potentially saved 60,000?

With that reasoning, which is fine by me, by the way, what about the report from the Dutch Ministry of Economical Afairs and Environment.

They have calculated that the first Dutch lock down, which intended to save 100,000 life years actually has cost 620,000 life years (e.g. by postponing regular medical treatment)

So the Dutch sociëty has saved 100,000 QALY's of (very old) people with an average future life excpetancy of 3 years, but therfore has eliminated 620,000 QALY's of mainly young people.

And when looking at the costs (QALY's are a standard used in almost all countries)
In the Netherlands the standard is that preventive costs of saving one QALY should not exceed €20.000. Mediacal treatment to save 1 QALY should not exceed €80.000

So from a cost perspective, using the guidelines used ALLWAYS when expressing preventive or curative measurements to save QALY's , the preventive actions (lock down) should not have exceeded €2,000,000,000. (€2 billion)
The first lock-down in the Netherlands has cost Dutch society between €7.5 billion - €10 billion

4-5 times as much as what should have been deemed acceptable.
+ 520,000 QALY's (which is anoy=ther [at least!] €10,4 billion

So adapting your reasoning from above, lock downs should never ever be imposed on us. Agree?



This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about...

Look, I know English is not your first language but if you have any interest in having an actual discussion based on facts (REAL facts, not made up numbers) without it being obscured by your political views, then read my post again, slowly. Only read the words I've written. Don't read into what you think I mean and try to approach discussions as discussions, not arguments. For some reason a lot of people on here have trouble understanding that basic concept. You (not just you, Tweety, ALL of you) are incredibly childish, passive aggressive and frankly not worth my time because I know that whenever you're faced with facts that damage your argument, rather than take it on board and learn from it, you dismiss it and bring up something completely unrelated. Like you've just done by introducing lockdowns into a conversation about the safety of vaccines.

But if you want instead to talk about lockdowns, sure, I'll go along with that. And for what it's worth, I agree with you in principal that lockdowns should not be imposed. Although, I'm more of a mind that lockdowns should not NEED to be imposed. Unfortunately, people can't be trusted not to go out and get themselves and others infected so even though I feel lockdowns should not be needed, some people are too stupid to be left to their own devices and do require a firmer hand.

Also, I'll just leave a little note here to advise you that if you respond with further conspiracy theory nonsense or attribute me with beliefs I don't hold or things I've it said, that I'll likely not bother replying to you. So you can celebrate that as a "win" or whatever it is you people do when you think you've won an argument. And again, this is not directed solely at you, Tweety. That's meant for everyone here. Right-wing or left-wing. You're all the same.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #258 posted 07/30/21 3:06am

IanRG

CherryMoon57 said:

The UK yellow card scheme shows that 1,490 people have died as a result of the vaccination so far. 1,490 eek


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

.

Directly from the report:

.

"The MHRA has received 460 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 999 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, seven for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 24 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the vaccines has increased over the course of the campaigns and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in these deaths."

.

The hint is in the name - yellow card - this is just deaths soon after getting the vaccine, so they need to be investigated and absolutely should be as a matter of urgency. The same thing happened in Australia, but we reported it better:

.

"To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over. Many of the deaths relate to elderly aged-care residents. The TGA reviews all deaths reported after vaccination and monitors for safety signals. Part of our analysis includes comparing expected natural death rates to observed death rates following immunisation. To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of deaths."

.

Indeed, in the investigations only 2 deaths have been ultimately attributed to a covid 19 vaccine so far.

[Edited 7/30/21 3:07am]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #259 posted 07/30/21 4:35am

PennyPurple

avatar

fortuneandserendipity said:

It absolutely IS possible to become infected with the virus and pass it on after being double jabbed. Data's coming in that suggests the Delta variant is particularly transmissible due to higher viral loads, including from people who've been vaccinated. sick

We know, you must not be comprehending our posts....

U.S.A.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #260 posted 07/30/21 5:06am

CherryMoon57

avatar

IanRG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

The UK yellow card scheme shows that 1,490 people have died as a result of the vaccination so far. 1,490 eek


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

.

Directly from the report:

.

"The MHRA has received 460 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 999 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, seven for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 24 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the vaccines has increased over the course of the campaigns and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in these deaths."

.

The hint is in the name - yellow card - this is just deaths soon after getting the vaccine, so they need to be investigated and absolutely should be as a matter of urgency. The same thing happened in Australia, but we reported it better:

.

"To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over. Many of the deaths relate to elderly aged-care residents. The TGA reviews all deaths reported after vaccination and monitors for safety signals. Part of our analysis includes comparing expected natural death rates to observed death rates following immunisation. To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of deaths."

.

Indeed, in the investigations only 2 deaths have been ultimately attributed to a covid 19 vaccine so far.

[Edited 7/30/21 3:07am]


Yeah, however you want to interpret all of this Ian... It's your choice, but then the same measure should be applied to both Covid and the vaccine in that case. Instead, the mere mention of Covid - even if undirectely linked - on the death certificate means that the death will be included in the general Covid death toll... Double standards!

Life Matters
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #261 posted 07/30/21 5:11am

CherryMoon57

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

TweetyV6 said:

So what you say is that the 1,490 deaths are o.k. because it potentially saved 60,000?

With that reasoning, which is fine by me, by the way, what about the report from the Dutch Ministry of Economical Afairs and Environment.

They have calculated that the first Dutch lock down, which intended to save 100,000 life years actually has cost 620,000 life years (e.g. by postponing regular medical treatment)

So the Dutch sociëty has saved 100,000 QALY's of (very old) people with an average future life excpetancy of 3 years, but therfore has eliminated 620,000 QALY's of mainly young people.

And when looking at the costs (QALY's are a standard used in almost all countries)
In the Netherlands the standard is that preventive costs of saving one QALY should not exceed €20.000. Mediacal treatment to save 1 QALY should not exceed €80.000

So from a cost perspective, using the guidelines used ALLWAYS when expressing preventive or curative measurements to save QALY's , the preventive actions (lock down) should not have exceeded €2,000,000,000. (€2 billion)
The first lock-down in the Netherlands has cost Dutch society between €7.5 billion - €10 billion

4-5 times as much as what should have been deemed acceptable.
+ 520,000 QALY's (which is anoy=ther [at least!] €10,4 billion

So adapting your reasoning from above, lock downs should never ever be imposed on us. Agree?

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about... Look, I know English is not your first language but if you have any interest in having an actual discussion based on facts (REAL facts, not made up numbers) without it being obscured by your political views, then read my post again, slowly. Only read the words I've written. Don't read into what you think I mean and try to approach discussions as discussions, not arguments. For some reason a lot of people on here have trouble understanding that basic concept. You (not just you, Tweety, ALL of you) are incredibly childish, passive aggressive and frankly not worth my time because I know that whenever you're faced with facts that damage your argument, rather than take it on board and learn from it, you dismiss it and bring up something completely unrelated. Like you've just done by introducing lockdowns into a conversation about the safety of vaccines. But if you want instead to talk about lockdowns, sure, I'll go along with that. And for what it's worth, I agree with you in principal that lockdowns should not be imposed. Although, I'm more of a mind that lockdowns should not NEED to be imposed. Unfortunately, people can't be trusted not to go out and get themselves and others infected so even though I feel lockdowns should not be needed, some people are too stupid to be left to their own devices and do require a firmer hand. Also, I'll just leave a little note here to advise you that if you respond with further conspiracy theory nonsense or attribute me with beliefs I don't hold or things I've it said, that I'll likely not bother replying to you. So you can celebrate that as a "win" or whatever it is you people do when you think you've won an argument. And again, this is not directed solely at you, Tweety. That's meant for everyone here. Right-wing or left-wing. You're all the same.

Oh I remember you did that to me too, last time we had a 'discussion' and you ran out of solid arguments... Attacking the person rather than maturely continuing the discussion, then officiously shutting them down. It sounds more like you are describing yourself here btw.

Life Matters
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #262 posted 07/30/21 5:36am

IanRG

CherryMoon57 said:

IanRG said:

.

Directly from the report:

.

"The MHRA has received 460 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 999 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, seven for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 24 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the vaccines has increased over the course of the campaigns and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in these deaths."

.

The hint is in the name - yellow card - this is just deaths soon after getting the vaccine, so they need to be investigated and absolutely should be as a matter of urgency. The same thing happened in Australia, but we reported it better:

.

"To 23 May 2021, 3.6 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given in Australia. In this period, the TGA has received 210 reports of deaths following immunisation – 109 have been reported for the Pfizer vaccine, 94 for the AstraZeneca vaccine and seven where the vaccine was not specified. Most of these reports (93%) were for people 65 years of age and over, and over three quarters were 75 years of age and over. Many of the deaths relate to elderly aged-care residents. The TGA reviews all deaths reported after vaccination and monitors for safety signals. Part of our analysis includes comparing expected natural death rates to observed death rates following immunisation. To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of deaths."

.

Indeed, in the investigations only 2 deaths have been ultimately attributed to a covid 19 vaccine so far.

[Edited 7/30/21 3:07am]


Yeah, however you want to interpret all of this Ian... It's your choice, but then the same measure should be applied to both Covid and the vaccine in that case. Instead, the mere mention of Covid - even if undirectely linked - on the death certificate means that the death will be included in the general Covid death toll... Double standards!

.

It is not a matter of having the choice to create interpretations - it is specifically and directly stating this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in these deaths. There is only one way to interpret this - the link you are imagining is directly contradicted as not being their in the source you used to pretend it is there.

.

This is different from a HCP specifically stating on the formal document about a individual's death that they had covid and it was a cause of death. There is no double standard here because the first has been identified as NOT indicating a link because it is just te number of people who died soon after getting a vaccine from any cause and the second has been identified as specifically having a direct link between them having Covid and their death where Covid was determined to be a key factor.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #263 posted 07/30/21 5:37am

IanRG

PennyPurple said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

It absolutely IS possible to become infected with the virus and pass it on after being double jabbed. Data's coming in that suggests the Delta variant is particularly transmissible due to higher viral loads, including from people who've been vaccinated. sick

We know, you must not be comprehending our posts....

.

He is just trolling again, ignore him.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #264 posted 07/30/21 5:40am

JorisE73

fortuneandserendipity said:

It absolutely IS possible to become infected with the virus and pass it on after being double jabbed. Data's coming in that suggests the Delta variant is particularly transmissible due to higher viral loads, including from people who've been vaccinated. sick


I had the same understanding but it'\s explained some posts up. It's a simple misunderstanding.
Even if you''ve been vaccinated you can still get Covid and spread it, but that doesn't mean that when you're vaccinated you automatically become infected with COVID.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #265 posted 07/30/21 5:41am

CherryMoon57

avatar

IanRG said:

CherryMoon57 said:


Yeah, however you want to interpret all of this Ian... It's your choice, but then the same measure should be applied to both Covid and the vaccine in that case. Instead, the mere mention of Covid - even if undirectely linked - on the death certificate means that the death will be included in the general Covid death toll... Double standards!

.

It is not a matter of having the choice to create interpretations - it is specifically and directly stating this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in these deaths. There is only one way to interpret this - the link you are imagining is directly contradicted as not being their in the source you used to pretend it is there.

.

This is different from a HCP specifically stating on the formal document about a individual's death that they had covid and it was a cause of death. There is no double standard here because the first has been identified as NOT indicating a link because it is just te number of people who died soon after getting a vaccine from any cause and the second has been identified as specifically having a direct link between them having Covid and their death where Covid was determined to be a key factor.

Then why bother listing it as 'fatalities' on the vaccine analysis if it has nothing to do with it at all? Also, for your information, Covid is not always a direct factor in the death for those included in the death toll. It just has to be a 'mention' of it. For instance, if someone who had Covid in the previous 28 days dies in hospital of another virus, they will be counted. Even if it wasn't Covid that killed them.

Life Matters
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #266 posted 07/30/21 5:45am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

PennyPurple said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

It absolutely IS possible to become infected with the virus and pass it on after being double jabbed. Data's coming in that suggests the Delta variant is particularly transmissible due to higher viral loads, including from people who've been vaccinated. sick

We know, you must not be comprehending our posts....


Say again...? delta variant vaccinated ...ding.com

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #267 posted 07/30/21 5:54am

JorisE73

EmmaMcG said:

PennyPurple said:

Florida’s COVID-19 hospitalizations and cases again jumped significantly this week as the vaccination rate in rural counties where some of the worst outbreaks are occurring remains well below the state and national averages.

About 5,300 Floridians are now hospitalized with COVID, a 65% jump since last week and nearly a tripling since June 14 when 1,845 were hospitalized, the Florida Hospital Association said. Officials have said more than 95% of those hospitalized were not vaccinated.


................



"We are seeing younger people in their 20s and 30s with not much risk factors -- not obese, not diabetic — coming in very sick," Abbo said. "Some of them requiring potential lung transplants."

If people refuse a vaccine they should be refused medical treatment if they catch the virus (unless they've been advised by a doctor not to be vaccinated on medical grounds). That would free up a lot of space in hospitals for people who deserve treatment.



Missed this post, but this is kind of fascist thinking.
People pay for treatment (in some cournties not) and everybody has the same rights.
What's next ?
Refusing smokers treatment because they've chosen to kill themselves and treatment shouldn't be wasted on them?
Or people who willingly, knowing the dangers, worked with Asbestos and got lungcancer shouldn't be treated?
Or what about obese people who choose to not exercise and eat healthy should they also be left for dead when getting a heartattack even tho they also have the same rights?
It's still a choice and people still have the same rights.
If you really want to go this way then I think people who refuse a vaccine of which there is still doubt of it's protection and dangers should be getting treatment before all the examples I gave above simply becuase smoking, asbestos and obesity are known killers.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #268 posted 07/30/21 6:05am

IanRG

CherryMoon57 said:

IanRG said:

.

It is not a matter of having the choice to create interpretations - it is specifically and directly stating this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in these deaths. There is only one way to interpret this - the link you are imagining is directly contradicted as not being their in the source you used to pretend it is there.

.

This is different from a HCP specifically stating on the formal document about a individual's death that they had covid and it was a cause of death. There is no double standard here because the first has been identified as NOT indicating a link because it is just te number of people who died soon after getting a vaccine from any cause and the second has been identified as specifically having a direct link between them having Covid and their death where Covid was determined to be a key factor.

Then why bother listing it as 'fatalities' on the vaccine analysis if it has nothing to do with it at all? Also, for your information, Covid is not always a direct factor in the death for those included in the death toll. It just has to be a 'mention' of it. For instance, if someone who had Covid in the previous 28 days dies in hospital of another virus, they will be counted. Even if it wasn't Covid that killed them.

.

Because as the report say, it was merely deaths that occured within the period after vaccination that were given a yellow card. This means thry need to be looked at, not that the the vaccine killed them - Some people will have been killed, but if it like the equivalent Australian report, of the 210 equivalent deaths only 2 were as a result of the vaccine out of 3.6 million doses.

.

You are imagining that people filling in a legal document as HCP would make up the cause of death knowing that such a false claim that would tarnish their professional reputation and expose them to potent legal or disablinary consequences. The deaths from Covid are real.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #269 posted 07/30/21 6:10am

djThunderfunk

avatar

IanRG said:

djThunderfunk said:


Those that support authoritarianism are as guilty as those that enforce it.


.

And you will be able to show where I have?

.

Because I know where you have absolutely selectively supported the authoritarian actions of the failed coup leader.


You have repeatedly shown support for forced vaccination and lockdowns.

So sure, show me where I "supported the authoritarian actions" of... well, ANYONE, ever.

I'll wait. popcorn

I'm in the control group.
https://www.britannica.co...trol-group
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 9 of 48 « First<5678910111213>Last »
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > Big Covid spike. Come on asshats get vaccinated!