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Reply #270 posted 07/30/21 6:36am

EmmaMcG

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CherryMoon57 said:



EmmaMcG said:


TweetyV6 said:



So what you say is that the 1,490 deaths are o.k. because it potentially saved 60,000?

With that reasoning, which is fine by me, by the way, what about the report from the Dutch Ministry of Economical Afairs and Environment.

They have calculated that the first Dutch lock down, which intended to save 100,000 life years actually has cost 620,000 life years (e.g. by postponing regular medical treatment)

So the Dutch sociëty has saved 100,000 QALY's of (very old) people with an average future life excpetancy of 3 years, but therfore has eliminated 620,000 QALY's of mainly young people.

And when looking at the costs (QALY's are a standard used in almost all countries)
In the Netherlands the standard is that preventive costs of saving one QALY should not exceed €20.000. Mediacal treatment to save 1 QALY should not exceed €80.000

So from a cost perspective, using the guidelines used ALLWAYS when expressing preventive or curative measurements to save QALY's , the preventive actions (lock down) should not have exceeded €2,000,000,000. (€2 billion)
The first lock-down in the Netherlands has cost Dutch society between €7.5 billion - €10 billion

4-5 times as much as what should have been deemed acceptable.
+ 520,000 QALY's (which is anoy=ther [at least!] €10,4 billion

So adapting your reasoning from above, lock downs should never ever be imposed on us. Agree?



This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about... Look, I know English is not your first language but if you have any interest in having an actual discussion based on facts (REAL facts, not made up numbers) without it being obscured by your political views, then read my post again, slowly. Only read the words I've written. Don't read into what you think I mean and try to approach discussions as discussions, not arguments. For some reason a lot of people on here have trouble understanding that basic concept. You (not just you, Tweety, ALL of you) are incredibly childish, passive aggressive and frankly not worth my time because I know that whenever you're faced with facts that damage your argument, rather than take it on board and learn from it, you dismiss it and bring up something completely unrelated. Like you've just done by introducing lockdowns into a conversation about the safety of vaccines. But if you want instead to talk about lockdowns, sure, I'll go along with that. And for what it's worth, I agree with you in principal that lockdowns should not be imposed. Although, I'm more of a mind that lockdowns should not NEED to be imposed. Unfortunately, people can't be trusted not to go out and get themselves and others infected so even though I feel lockdowns should not be needed, some people are too stupid to be left to their own devices and do require a firmer hand. Also, I'll just leave a little note here to advise you that if you respond with further conspiracy theory nonsense or attribute me with beliefs I don't hold or things I've it said, that I'll likely not bother replying to you. So you can celebrate that as a "win" or whatever it is you people do when you think you've won an argument. And again, this is not directed solely at you, Tweety. That's meant for everyone here. Right-wing or left-wing. You're all the same.

Oh I remember you did that to me too, last time we had a 'discussion' and you ran out of solid arguments... Attacking the person rather than maturely continuing the discussion, then officiously shutting them down. It sounds more like you are describing yourself here btw.



I don't remember you to be honest but I'm not attacking him personally. I don't know him (or you) so why would I attack some stranger in the internet? In fact, that was intended to be the opposite of an attack on him. All I'm saying is that I realise that English is not his first language so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to him possibly misinterpreting what I'm saying. I was talking to you about the vaccines and their safety and he started talking to me about lockdowns. I mean no disrespect to people who genuinely misunderstand something that's not written in their native language. I'm sure his English is better than my Dutch just as I'm sure your English is better than my French(?).

Like I said, I genuinely don't remember you so I can't claim innocence in your case. I may have been dismissive of you, like you say. I really don't know. If I was, I do apologise. I don't agree with your views on this topic but you're definitely not one of the orgers whose posts I instantly ignore. You'll notice that there are certain orgers who I never respond to because I simply don't bother reading their posts anymore because I know it'll just be more bullshit. You're not one of those orgers. Not agreeing with you on one or two (or ten) subjects doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If I see that you've come to your position by yourself and are willing to discuss the topic rather than just dismissing whatever goes against your point then I'll happily engage with you in conversation. Take, for instance, your post about the 1500 people or whatever it was dying from the vaccine. I never refuted that figure, nor did I agree that it was accurate. Because I didn't know. I'm willing to investigate that for myself though even if it damages my position as pro-vaccine. I think you might be willing to do the same even if it damages your position as anti-vaccine. Those are the conversations I'd like to have and those are the people I'd like to have those conversations with. You have to approach things with an open mind. Something a lot of people on here have trouble with.

So again, no disrespect was meant to Tweety. And if I've disrespected you in the past, I'm sorry.
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Reply #271 posted 07/30/21 6:38am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

IanRG said:

PennyPurple said:

We know, you must not be comprehending our posts....

.

He is just trolling again, ignore him.

No what it is. You can't read, again. Mind like granite.

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #272 posted 07/30/21 6:42am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

https://www.independent.c...93498.html

What's the use of a mind if you're not prepared to change it?

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #273 posted 07/30/21 6:50am

EmmaMcG

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JorisE73 said:



EmmaMcG said:


PennyPurple said:

Florida’s COVID-19 hospitalizations and cases again jumped significantly this week as the vaccination rate in rural counties where some of the worst outbreaks are occurring remains well below the state and national averages.


About 5,300 Floridians are now hospitalized with COVID, a 65% jump since last week and nearly a tripling since June 14 when 1,845 were hospitalized, the Florida Hospital Association said. Officials have said more than 95% of those hospitalized were not vaccinated.



.....





"We are seeing younger people in their 20s and 30s with not much risk factors -- not obese, not diabetic — coming in very sick," Abbo said. "Some of them requiring potential lung transplants."



If people refuse a vaccine they should be refused medical treatment if they catch the virus (unless they've been advised by a doctor not to be vaccinated on medical grounds). That would free up a lot of space in hospitals for people who deserve treatment.



Missed this post, but this is kind of fascist thinking.
People pay for treatment (in some cournties not) and everybody has the same rights.
What's next ?
Refusing smokers treatment because they've chosen to kill themselves and treatment shouldn't be wasted on them?
Or people who willingly, knowing the dangers, worked with Asbestos and got lungcancer shouldn't be treated?
Or what about obese people who choose to not exercise and eat healthy should they also be left for dead when getting a heartattack even tho they also have the same rights?
It's still a choice and people still have the same rights.
If you really want to go this way then I think people who refuse a vaccine of which there is still doubt of it's protection and dangers should be getting treatment before all the examples I gave above simply becuase smoking, asbestos and obesity are known killers.



Maybe so. But that's how I feel.

Speaking as someone whose mother died in her mid 40s (7 years ago this week) from smoking and alcohol abuse, I'd say yes, she brought her ailments on herself and whereas I love her and still miss her, I don't feel much sympathy for her. It was her own stupidity that killed her. Obviously I'm glad she received medical treatment in her final weeks but maybe had she known that she wouldn't be getting that treatment, perhaps she might still be alive today. If she knew what was coming would she have quit her bad habits? Would my children have a grandmother?

Same scenario for the other groups you mentioned.

I obviously don't want people to die from Covid. But maybe the fear of being told they'd be refused medical treatment if they weren't vaccinated might encourage them to get over their unwarranted fear of the vaccine itself.

Though, this is purely hypothetical of course and ultimately, I don't care whether or not people I don't know get vaccinated or not just so long as their idiocy doesn't cause myself or anyone close to me to get sick.
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Reply #274 posted 07/30/21 6:54am

CherryMoon57

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IanRG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Then why bother listing it as 'fatalities' on the vaccine analysis if it has nothing to do with it at all? Also, for your information, Covid is not always a direct factor in the death for those included in the death toll. It just has to be a 'mention' of it. For instance, if someone who had Covid in the previous 28 days dies in hospital of another virus, they will be counted. Even if it wasn't Covid that killed them.

.

Because as the report say, it was merely deaths that occured within the period after vaccination that were given a yellow card. This means thry need to be looked at, not that the the vaccine killed them - Some people will have been killed, but if it like the equivalent Australian report, of the 210 equivalent deaths only 2 were as a result of the vaccine out of 3.6 million doses.

.

You are imagining that people filling in a legal document as HCP would make up the cause of death knowing that such a false claim that would tarnish their professional reputation and expose them to potent legal or disablinary consequences. The deaths from Covid are real.


All deaths of people who died within 28 days after a first positive Covid test are initially automatically included in the toll and announced daily on the BBC, while those dying shortly - sometimes very shortly - after getting the vaccine require further deliberation before a link is established. I am surprised you still don't see the blatant and potentially dangerous inconsistencies in approaches here.

But anyway, IF the figures in the UK yellow card reporting system turned out to not match the actual number of deaths confirmed as linked to the vaccine(s), and since you are usually quite good at finding reports, would you by any chance have any idea of how we could find out?

[Edited 7/30/21 10:54am]

Life Matters
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Reply #275 posted 07/30/21 7:00am

CherryMoon57

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JorisE73 said:

EmmaMcG said:

PennyPurple said: If people refuse a vaccine they should be refused medical treatment if they catch the virus (unless they've been advised by a doctor not to be vaccinated on medical grounds). That would free up a lot of space in hospitals for people who deserve treatment.



Missed this post, but this is kind of fascist thinking.
People pay for treatment (in some cournties not) and everybody has the same rights.
What's next ?
Refusing smokers treatment because they've chosen to kill themselves and treatment shouldn't be wasted on them?
Or people who willingly, knowing the dangers, worked with Asbestos and got lungcancer shouldn't be treated?
Or what about obese people who choose to not exercise and eat healthy should they also be left for dead when getting a heartattack even tho they also have the same rights?
It's still a choice and people still have the same rights.
If you really want to go this way then I think people who refuse a vaccine of which there is still doubt of it's protection and dangers should be getting treatment before all the examples I gave above simply becuase smoking, asbestos and obesity are known killers.

You've just hit the nail on the head here.

Life Matters
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Reply #276 posted 07/30/21 7:00am

TweetyV6

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IanRG said:

The deaths from Covid are real.


Sorry Ian, but no. The data for Covid-19 deaths has a serious integrity issue.

To determine what the actual cause of death of somebody was, you have to perform an autopsy.
Last year, a German pathologist (from Hamburg) did that for 27 Covid-19 deaths.
2 out of those 27 we actually deceased due to Covid-19, in 21 cases the cause of death was NOT Covid-19, in 4 cases it could not be determined exactly what the direct cause of death was.

His statement at that time, April 2020, was that all of the 27 people he (and his team) did an autopsy on would have died within the next few months.

Here's the overview of the US CDC about co-morbidities.
See table 3: Comorbidities and other conditions

1st hand story I have is a patient of my wife. She (the patient, not my wife) is the head anesthesiologist of the Zuyderland Hospital here in Heerlen (NL)
The first 5 Covid-19 deaths there were all patients suffering from cancer and already had received the terrible message that there were terminal. These 5 would not have survived the next 1-3 months. 3 of them already made arrangements to be brought to a hospice.
Then the Hospital unit in which cancer patients are treated got infected in late March 2020 and when those 5 people died, they were counted as Covid-19 deaths.

You might argue that the infection with SARS-CoV-2 was the direct cause for their death. But certainly not the dominant cause or root cause.

Other analysis I have done myself, very easy to do, I looked up the total deaths in 2020 in Germany.
Looked up the same for the years 1950-2019.
Made a relation to the total amount of inhabitants of Germany that year and ranked them.

70 years of data.
The year 2020 ranked 24th. So nothing out of the ordinary.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #277 posted 07/30/21 7:15am

CherryMoon57

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EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Oh I remember you did that to me too, last time we had a 'discussion' and you ran out of solid arguments... Attacking the person rather than maturely continuing the discussion, then officiously shutting them down. It sounds more like you are describing yourself here btw.

I don't remember you to be honest but I'm not attacking him personally. I don't know him (or you) so why would I attack some stranger in the internet? In fact, that was intended to be the opposite of an attack on him. All I'm saying is that I realise that English is not his first language so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to him possibly misinterpreting what I'm saying. I was talking to you about the vaccines and their safety and he started talking to me about lockdowns. I mean no disrespect to people who genuinely misunderstand something that's not written in their native language. I'm sure his English is better than my Dutch just as I'm sure your English is better than my French(?). Like I said, I genuinely don't remember you so I can't claim innocence in your case. I may have been dismissive of you, like you say. I really don't know. If I was, I do apologise. I don't agree with your views on this topic but you're definitely not one of the orgers whose posts I instantly ignore. You'll notice that there are certain orgers who I never respond to because I simply don't bother reading their posts anymore because I know it'll just be more bullshit. You're not one of those orgers. Not agreeing with you on one or two (or ten) subjects doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If I see that you've come to your position by yourself and are willing to discuss the topic rather than just dismissing whatever goes against your point then I'll happily engage with you in conversation. Take, for instance, your post about the 1500 people or whatever it was dying from the vaccine. I never refuted that figure, nor did I agree that it was accurate. Because I didn't know. I'm willing to investigate that for myself though even if it damages my position as pro-vaccine. I think you might be willing to do the same even if it damages your position as anti-vaccine. Those are the conversations I'd like to have and those are the people I'd like to have those conversations with. You have to approach things with an open mind. Something a lot of people on here have trouble with. So again, no disrespect was meant to Tweety. And if I've disrespected you in the past, I'm sorry.

Apologies accepted, although I have no position with regards to the vaccine programme. I am only asking legitimate questions to do with its implementation, which have yet to be answered.

Life Matters
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Reply #278 posted 07/30/21 7:16am

TweetyV6

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EmmaMcG said:

If people refuse a vaccine they should be refused medical treatment if they catch the virus (unless they've been advised by a doctor not to be vaccinated on medical grounds). That would free up a lot of space in hospitals for people who deserve treatment.


eek
Start with smokers first, then. They cause much more 'pressure' on the medical system than Covid-19 does. And then obese people. And then the couch potatoes.
Oh and preemptively kill anybody oler than 75.


Though, this is purely hypothetical of course and ultimately, I don't care whether or not people I don't know get vaccinated or not just so long as their idiocy doesn't cause myself or anyone close to me to get sick.


The only one who can protect you is you.
Don't project that responsibility onto others.
You know what the threats are and by now you should very well know what to do and what not to do.

Don't make your fear depend on me wearing a face mask or not.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #279 posted 07/30/21 7:27am

CherryMoon57

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Refusing people medical treatment simply because they are not vaccinated for Covid-19? Still can't get over that one... And on a Prince forum of all disbelief

Life Matters
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Reply #280 posted 07/30/21 7:28am

2freaky4church
1

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Tweety is a flat earther.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #281 posted 07/30/21 7:30am

CherryMoon57

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2freaky4church1 said:

Tweety is a flat earther.

I'm not

Life Matters
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Reply #282 posted 07/30/21 7:45am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

CherryMoon57 said:

IanRG said:

.

Because as the report say, it was merely deaths that occured within the period after vaccination that were given a yellow card. This means thry need to be looked at, not that the the vaccine killed them - Some people will have been killed, but if it like the equivalent Australian report, of the 210 equivalent deaths only 2 were as a result of the vaccine out of 3.6 million doses.

.

You are imagining that people filling in a legal document as HCP would make up the cause of death knowing that such a false claim that would tarnish their professional reputation and expose them to potent legal or disablinary consequences. The deaths from Covid are real.


All deaths of people who died within 28 days after a first positive Covid test are initially automatically included in the toll and announced daily on the BBC, while those dying shortly - sometimes very shortly - after getting the vaccine require further deliberation before a link is established. I am surprised you still don't see the blatant and potentially dangerous inconsistencies in approaches here.

But anyway, IF the figures in the yellow card system turned out to not match actual death confirmed as linked to the vaccines, and since you are usually quite good at finding reports, would you by any change have any idea of how we could find out?


^ Believe what you want to believe. But it's quite clear the 71 UK deaths from thrombocytopenia linked to the vaccine are fairly indisputable. These are extremely rare clotting events, totally unlike DVTs. They just don't ordinarily happen to people.

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #283 posted 07/30/21 8:06am

TweetyV6

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2freaky4church1 said:

Tweety is a flat earther.


lol Then you're a square earther lol

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #284 posted 07/30/21 8:52am

EmmaMcG

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CherryMoon57 said:

Refusing people medical treatment simply because they are not vaccinated for Covid-19? Still can't get over that one... And on a Prince forum of all disbelief



Purely hypothetical, as I said. I don't actually wish for people to be left on a trolley to die in hospital. But if they knew that would happen if they refused a vaccine, might that change their mind? That was what I was getting at. I'm not sure if you read my post in response to Joris but I explained it pretty clearly there.

Also, not sure what it being in a Prince forum has to do with it. There's a lot of things that are said on this forum that seem out of place on a fan forum for a black musician, but my comments rank pretty low on that scale lol
[Edited 7/30/21 8:54am]
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Reply #285 posted 07/30/21 9:00am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Refusing people medical treatment simply because they are not vaccinated for Covid-19? Still can't get over that one... And on a Prince forum of all disbelief

Purely hypothetical, as I said. I don't actually wish for people to be left on a trolley to die in hospital. But if they knew that would happen if they refused a vaccine, might that change their mind? That was what I was getting at. I'm not sure if you read my post in response to Joris but I explained it pretty clearly there. Also, not sure what it being in a Prince forum has to do with it. There's a lot of things that are said on this forum that seem out of place on a fan forum for a black musician, but my comments rank pretty low on that scale lol [Edited 7/30/21 8:54am]


What about fat people who can't physically squeeze out of their own bedroom door? so the fire service have to be called out to carve a hole into the wall of their house, just so said fat person can be manoeuvered down to the ground via the assistance of a crane. Should they just be left to eat and die. Or are they also deserving of sympathy? hmmm

The hypocrisy of the far-left is something else.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - this is where all religions fall down.
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Reply #286 posted 07/30/21 9:06am

EmmaMcG

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CherryMoon57 said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:


Oh I remember you did that to me too, last time we had a 'discussion' and you ran out of solid arguments... Attacking the person rather than maturely continuing the discussion, then officiously shutting them down. It sounds more like you are describing yourself here btw.



I don't remember you to be honest but I'm not attacking him personally. I don't know him (or you) so why would I attack some stranger in the internet? In fact, that was intended to be the opposite of an attack on him. All I'm saying is that I realise that English is not his first language so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to him possibly misinterpreting what I'm saying. I was talking to you about the vaccines and their safety and he started talking to me about lockdowns. I mean no disrespect to people who genuinely misunderstand something that's not written in their native language. I'm sure his English is better than my Dutch just as I'm sure your English is better than my French(?). Like I said, I genuinely don't remember you so I can't claim innocence in your case. I may have been dismissive of you, like you say. I really don't know. If I was, I do apologise. I don't agree with your views on this topic but you're definitely not one of the orgers whose posts I instantly ignore. You'll notice that there are certain orgers who I never respond to because I simply don't bother reading their posts anymore because I know it'll just be more bullshit. You're not one of those orgers. Not agreeing with you on one or two (or ten) subjects doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If I see that you've come to your position by yourself and are willing to discuss the topic rather than just dismissing whatever goes against your point then I'll happily engage with you in conversation. Take, for instance, your post about the 1500 people or whatever it was dying from the vaccine. I never refuted that figure, nor did I agree that it was accurate. Because I didn't know. I'm willing to investigate that for myself though even if it damages my position as pro-vaccine. I think you might be willing to do the same even if it damages your position as anti-vaccine. Those are the conversations I'd like to have and those are the people I'd like to have those conversations with. You have to approach things with an open mind. Something a lot of people on here have trouble with. So again, no disrespect was meant to Tweety. And if I've disrespected you in the past, I'm sorry.

Apologies accepted, although I have no position with regards to the vaccine programme. I am only asking legitimate questions to do with its implementation, which have yet to be answered.



And that's why I continue to engage with you. Because I know you're not one of the headcases who believe Bill Gates is injecting you with nano machines so he can track your movements. Which, by the way, is something some people actually believe.

You have valid concerns. I did too. I wasn't sure if I should be vaccinated because I'm pregnant and I remember seeing some stories advising pregnant women not to get the vaccine. Then there were other stories which said the opposite. Which is why I done my own research on sites with no political agenda and took advice from multiple doctors who also have no political agenda. And finding information from completely unbiased sources that is based in scientific fact is not easy. But after a lot of time spent researching and consulting doctors, I came to the conclusion that the vaccine is in my best interests. I had my first dose of Pfizer last Friday and so far, no side effects. Bit of a sore arm for a few hours immediately after it but that wore off quickly. My husband is a bit (well, 10 years) older than I am so he was well ahead of me in the queue and has had both doses and is now fully vaccinated. Again, he had zero side effects. In fact, out of everyone I know who has been vaccinated, my sister is the only one who experienced any side effects. And even then, it only made her tired. Although she was vehemently against getting it so I suspect her "side effects" were more of a mental thing.
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Reply #287 posted 07/30/21 9:07am

CherryMoon57

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EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Refusing people medical treatment simply because they are not vaccinated for Covid-19? Still can't get over that one... And on a Prince forum of all disbelief

Purely hypothetical, as I said. I don't actually wish for people to be left on a trolley to die in hospital. But if they knew that would happen if they refused a vaccine, might that change their mind? That was what I was getting at. I'm not sure if you read my post in response to Joris but I explained it pretty clearly there. Also, not sure what it being in a Prince forum has to do with it. There's a lot of things that are said on this forum that seem out of place on a fan forum for a black musician, but my comments rank pretty low on that scale lol [Edited 7/30/21 8:54am]


I don't think any form of blackmail, be it discrimination or pure threat, has ever been a good way to convince anyone to do anything. But anyway, keep digging...

Life Matters
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Reply #288 posted 07/30/21 9:08am

EmmaMcG

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fortuneandserendipity said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:

Refusing people medical treatment simply because they are not vaccinated for Covid-19? Still can't get over that one... And on a Prince forum of all disbelief



Purely hypothetical, as I said. I don't actually wish for people to be left on a trolley to die in hospital. But if they knew that would happen if they refused a vaccine, might that change their mind? That was what I was getting at. I'm not sure if you read my post in response to Joris but I explained it pretty clearly there. Also, not sure what it being in a Prince forum has to do with it. There's a lot of things that are said on this forum that seem out of place on a fan forum for a black musician, but my comments rank pretty low on that scale lol [Edited 7/30/21 8:54am]


What about fat people who can't physically squeeze out of their own bedroom door? so the fire service have to be called out to carve a hole into the wall of their house, just so said fat person can be manoeuvered down to the ground via the assistance of a crane. Should they just be left to eat and die. Or are they also deserving of sympathy? hmmm



I believe I already answered that in my response to Joris. Try reading that.
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Reply #289 posted 07/30/21 9:10am

EmmaMcG

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CherryMoon57 said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:

Refusing people medical treatment simply because they are not vaccinated for Covid-19? Still can't get over that one... And on a Prince forum of all disbelief



Purely hypothetical, as I said. I don't actually wish for people to be left on a trolley to die in hospital. But if they knew that would happen if they refused a vaccine, might that change their mind? That was what I was getting at. I'm not sure if you read my post in response to Joris but I explained it pretty clearly there. Also, not sure what it being in a Prince forum has to do with it. There's a lot of things that are said on this forum that seem out of place on a fan forum for a black musician, but my comments rank pretty low on that scale lol [Edited 7/30/21 8:54am]


I don't think any form of blackmail, be it discrimination or pure threat, has ever been a good way to convince anyone to do anything. But anyway, keep digging...



Purely hypothetical, is what I said. You see, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but you just seem to want an argument. Why is that?
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Reply #290 posted 07/30/21 9:38am

CherryMoon57

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EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:


I don't think any form of blackmail, be it discrimination or pure threat, has ever been a good way to convince anyone to do anything. But anyway, keep digging...

Purely hypothetical, is what I said. You see, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but you just seem to want an argument. Why is that?

Don't worry, I am not here for an argument and I have no need for any doubts of yours either. I am just still in disbelief with some of the stuff you have actually put forward on here; besides, you actually said 'If people refuse a vaccine they should be refused medical treatment if they catch the virus' which would normally be described as 'prescriptive' (or 'conditional' at best) but definitely not 'hypothetical'. You raised the bar by dissing other's comprehension skills, so please try and make an effort to set the example. Finally, when you criticise other's language skills then almost immediately go on to writing things like: 'Which is why I done my own research on sites with no political agenda' (post#286), you kind of lose any form of credibility. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones y'know...

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Reply #291 posted 07/30/21 9:42am

CherryMoon57

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EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Apologies accepted, although I have no position with regards to the vaccine programme. I am only asking legitimate questions to do with its implementation, which have yet to be answered.

And that's why I continue to engage with you. Because I know you're not one of the headcases who believe Bill Gates is injecting you with nano machines so he can track your movements. Which, by the way, is something some people actually believe. You have valid concerns. I did too. I wasn't sure if I should be vaccinated because I'm pregnant and I remember seeing some stories advising pregnant women not to get the vaccine. Then there were other stories which said the opposite. Which is why I done my own research on sites with no political agenda and took advice from multiple doctors who also have no political agenda. And finding information from completely unbiased sources that is based in scientific fact is not easy. But after a lot of time spent researching and consulting doctors, I came to the conclusion that the vaccine is in my best interests. I had my first dose of Pfizer last Friday and so far, no side effects. Bit of a sore arm for a few hours immediately after it but that wore off quickly. My husband is a bit (well, 10 years) older than I am so he was well ahead of me in the queue and has had both doses and is now fully vaccinated. Again, he had zero side effects. In fact, out of everyone I know who has been vaccinated, my sister is the only one who experienced any side effects. And even then, it only made her tired. Although she was vehemently against getting it so I suspect her "side effects" were more of a mental thing.


But anyway, congrats on your (third?) pregnancy. Despite all said, I truly hope it all goes well.

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Reply #292 posted 07/30/21 10:00am

EmmaMcG

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CherryMoon57 said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:



I don't think any form of blackmail, be it discrimination or pure threat, has ever been a good way to convince anyone to do anything. But anyway, keep digging...



Purely hypothetical, is what I said. You see, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but you just seem to want an argument. Why is that?

Don't worry, I am not here for an argument and I have no need for any doubts of yours either. I am just still in disbelief with some of the stuff you have actually put forward on here; besides, you actually said 'If people refuse a vaccine they should be refused medical treatment if they catch the virus' which would normally be described as 'prescriptive' (or 'conditional' at best) but definitely not 'hypothetical'. You raised the bar by dissing other's comprehension skills, so please try and make an effort to set the example. Finally, when you criticise other's language skills then almost immediately go on to writing things like: 'Which is why I done my own research on sites with no political agenda' (post#286), you kind of lose any form of credibility. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones y'know...



Yep, you got me. My grammar isn't what it should be. And yeah, you're right, I should make more of an effort to make my original posts clearer to avoid having to explain myself a further 4 or 5 times that I wasn't actually suggesting that people should really be refused medical treatment. I'd have thought those further explanations were good enough though. But my original post wasn't clear and I agree with you on that. Other than posting on here, I don't type much. I don't do social media and I don't send emails. I rarely even text. So sometimes I have trouble properly expressing myself in pure text form. Things which seem obvious to me are not obvious to the reader.

Although, again, I wasn't criticising Tweety's language skills, as I've already explained. I was genuinely wondering if he'd perhaps misunderstood what you and I were talking about. I may have critisised your language skills in the past. I don't remember doing it but I believe you when you say I did. And again, I'm sorry for that.
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Reply #293 posted 07/30/21 10:04am

EmmaMcG

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CherryMoon57 said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:


Apologies accepted, although I have no position with regards to the vaccine programme. I am only asking legitimate questions to do with its implementation, which have yet to be answered.



And that's why I continue to engage with you. Because I know you're not one of the headcases who believe Bill Gates is injecting you with nano machines so he can track your movements. Which, by the way, is something some people actually believe. You have valid concerns. I did too. I wasn't sure if I should be vaccinated because I'm pregnant and I remember seeing some stories advising pregnant women not to get the vaccine. Then there were other stories which said the opposite. Which is why I done my own research on sites with no political agenda and took advice from multiple doctors who also have no political agenda. And finding information from completely unbiased sources that is based in scientific fact is not easy. But after a lot of time spent researching and consulting doctors, I came to the conclusion that the vaccine is in my best interests. I had my first dose of Pfizer last Friday and so far, no side effects. Bit of a sore arm for a few hours immediately after it but that wore off quickly. My husband is a bit (well, 10 years) older than I am so he was well ahead of me in the queue and has had both doses and is now fully vaccinated. Again, he had zero side effects. In fact, out of everyone I know who has been vaccinated, my sister is the only one who experienced any side effects. And even then, it only made her tired. Although she was vehemently against getting it so I suspect her "side effects" were more of a mental thing.


But anyway, congrats on your (third?) pregnancy. Despite all said, I truly hope it all goes well.



Third child. Fourth pregnancy. Which explains my initial trepidation about the vaccines. And thank you. Disagreements on certain issues doesn't mean that we can't agree on other things. Or, heaven forbid, be friendly with each other eek

After all, my own sister is very outspoken about these things. I'm sure if she wasn't so lazy she'd be out protesting against it razz
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Reply #294 posted 07/30/21 10:46am

CherryMoon57

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EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:


But anyway, congrats on your (third?) pregnancy. Despite all said, I truly hope it all goes well.

Third child. Fourth pregnancy. Which explains my initial trepidation about the vaccines. And thank you. Disagreements on certain issues doesn't mean that we can't agree on other things. Or, heaven forbid, be friendly with each other eek After all, my own sister is very outspoken about these things. I'm sure if she wasn't so lazy she'd be out protesting against it razz

Lol. Sounds like I would probably get along fine with your sister...

Do you think you will get your older children vaccinated too when that becomes available for them?

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Reply #295 posted 07/30/21 1:07pm

Strive

As much as I enjoy seeing the flailing back and forth between them saying you have to get vaccinated to stop covid to try to get vaccination rates up and them also saying that 75% of dreaded delta variant infections, at some Fourth Of July celebration, were vaccinated to try to jusitfy lockdowns and infringing your freedom...

Just don't play along. The goalposts will always be moving. They will never free you, but they also never had the right to restrict your freedom in the first place.

Don't get vaccinated. Don't honor their restrictions. Live your life normally.

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Reply #296 posted 07/30/21 1:15pm

EmmaMcG

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:



EmmaMcG said:


CherryMoon57 said:



But anyway, congrats on your (third?) pregnancy. Despite all said, I truly hope it all goes well.



Third child. Fourth pregnancy. Which explains my initial trepidation about the vaccines. And thank you. Disagreements on certain issues doesn't mean that we can't agree on other things. Or, heaven forbid, be friendly with each other eek After all, my own sister is very outspoken about these things. I'm sure if she wasn't so lazy she'd be out protesting against it razz

Lol. Sounds like I would probably get along fine with your sister...


Do you think you will get your older children vaccinated too when that becomes available for them?



I'd say you probably would, haha. Probably my husband too.

My daughter is 10 and my son will be 2 in December. So that rules him out. My daughter? I'm honestly not sure. If it's offered to kids that young then I'll think about it. Until then it's not something I'll worry about. I wouldn't make that decision on my own though. As always, I'll follow the advice of my GP (and get a second and third opinion) and if it's deemed safe then I'll ask her if she wants it. I know she's still very young but I kind of don't want to force my opinions on her. I want her to make her own mind up. The virus doesn't impact children the way it does adults though does it? And at that point I'd be fully vaccinated, as would my husband and most of my family so I wouldn't have to worry too much about my daughter catching whatever mild version of the virus kids get and passing on a more serious version to an adult. Long story short, I'm not sure.
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Reply #297 posted 07/30/21 2:47pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Lol. Sounds like I would probably get along fine with your sister...

Do you think you will get your older children vaccinated too when that becomes available for them?

I'd say you probably would, haha. Probably my husband too. My daughter is 10 and my son will be 2 in December. So that rules him out. My daughter? I'm honestly not sure. If it's offered to kids that young then I'll think about it. Until then it's not something I'll worry about. I wouldn't make that decision on my own though. As always, I'll follow the advice of my GP (and get a second and third opinion) and if it's deemed safe then I'll ask her if she wants it. I know she's still very young but I kind of don't want to force my opinions on her. I want her to make her own mind up. The virus doesn't impact children the way it does adults though does it? And at that point I'd be fully vaccinated, as would my husband and most of my family so I wouldn't have to worry too much about my daughter catching whatever mild version of the virus kids get and passing on a more serious version to an adult. Long story short, I'm not sure.


Yes, Covid vaccination for kids is an even trickier one, with the risks currently outweighing the benefits. As for me, I think I will probably try and get an immunity certificate - to visit my mum in France - if I can, as I am pretty sure I had Covid back in January 2020 when it all started. This might be enough to show at the French border and other places, at least for now. Still pretty annoying to have to go through all this though. Having to constantly justify and pay for travel tests that are rather expensive (last time I checked it was £85 per person) and that are only valid for 3 days.

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Reply #298 posted 07/30/21 3:10pm

CherryMoon57

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Strive said:

As much as I enjoy seeing the flailing back and forth between them saying you have to get vaccinated to stop covid to try to get vaccination rates up and them also saying that 75% of dreaded delta variant infections, at some Fourth Of July celebration, were vaccinated to try to jusitfy lockdowns and infringing your freedom...

Just don't play along. The goalposts will always be moving. They will never free you, but they also never had the right to restrict your freedom in the first place.

Don't get vaccinated. Don't honor their restrictions. Live your life normally.

For sure... I have been watching all of this unfold from the start and I noticed that everytime an MP in the news complained about an absurdly restrictive proposal like the Health passports, then you could be sure that was exactely what would happen next. It's almost like they gradually get us used to the idea, then implementation follows. I have been living relatively normally so far, but it is a different story when you have to travel abroad though. A hint of things to come had already started to emerge in 2019 with the Brexit measures. I had been a UK resident for most of my adult life, but suddenly I had to apply for a right to live here. No one was guaranteed a positive answer. Mine was successful but I knew then that this was just a preparatory phase for even bigger changes to come. I just didn't know they were going to happen so fast.

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Reply #299 posted 07/30/21 3:28pm

IanRG

TweetyV6 said:

IanRG said:

The deaths from Covid are real.


Sorry Ian, but no. The data for Covid-19 deaths has a serious integrity issue.

To determine what the actual cause of death of somebody was, you have to perform an autopsy.

You might argue that the infection with SARS-CoV-2 was the direct cause for their death. But certainly not the dominant cause or root cause.

.

Sorry Tweaty but no, this is factually wrong.

.

It is also another deflection because you jumped in on the 1490 yellow card deaths on the assumption that they were vaccine deaths. You failed to do basic due diligence and read the report before you did because the report made it specifically clear that this is NOT what they were saying at all.

.

Almost NO deaths have an autopsy to determine the cause of death. Worse than that, in the USA only one out of six deaths from the flu even have a positive test for a flu virus - It is just assumed a form of the flu was at least one of the causes of death. Against this guess, in most places in the world, if the person has not had a positive test for covid, it is not considered to be one of the causes of death.

.

The covid deaths are real whenever this is a direct cause of death even if the person had comorbidities, even if there was another cause that can be seen as the dominant or root cause.

I may not agree with what you say, but I will never seek to cancel you with an anti-free speech signature
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