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Reply #90 posted 07/23/21 7:10am

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:



2elijah said:


Strive said:

If you ever wonder why I rarely make serious long posts, there's your answer.



But you just made one on this thread. So what’s the problem? lol I guess if you can’t get some to agree with all your points, then it’s a problem. Like I said, your focus seems to be more on accusing those burning down the churches, as having some agenda ‘to take power’ and that their interests is not about the discovery of the Native childrens’ graves. [Edited 7/23/21 5:24am]


Because out of all the thoughts and ideas I raised, you boiled it down to.



1) "You're Catholic. Therefore you're too emotional about what's going on and your feelings don't matter" Even though churches are being burned down today. Not 30 years ago or 100 years ago. This is happening today. From June to July, 18 Christian (in some cases, not even Catholic) churches were burned due to the irresponsible and inaccurate reporting by the media.



2) "First Nations members have the right to question whether any of these childrens' death is due to abuse" Which is...they don't even know if it's children from the school in the 182 unmarked graves. And they aren't going to know because, as far as I know, they aren't going to disturb the graves. Let alone CSI do autopsies to try to figure out how they died 100 years ago.

So the problem is, it was a big waste of time writing all of that because I should have just been spamming https://www.steugene.ca/e...ed-graves/ the entire time instead of thinking you are a person that can read and comprehend and maybe come at me from a different, more interesting, angle.




Ok let me be clear. I was not dismissing your feelings about the situation because you are Catholic. Of course you have a right to be concerned, that Catholic Churches are being targeted, because you are a Catholic.

I’m basically saying, based on your comments, that you don’t t seem to be viewing the situation, from the First Nations point of view. Also, I didn’t agree with the vandalizing of the church as a response, to the graves of Native children being uncovered. Your concern seems to more politically related, because you referred to those using vandalism against the Churches, as communists, and that it’s just their agenda to ‘take power’. I’m going by your comment in your posts. I think it’s fair to say, that I don’t expect that we’d agree on everything on this topic.
[Edited 7/23/21 7:37am]
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Reply #91 posted 07/23/21 7:23am

2elijah

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Strive said:



2elijah said:


Posting this article that includes some elder survivors’ accounts of their experiences in those schools. https://www.wbur.org/here...us-schools


OMG genocide. Physical and mental abuse. Let's read these horrible acts.


.


“We tried to mention over, and over, and over, ‘there are many children missing,’ ” she told the audience. “Many of our children tried to cross the river to swim across, many were lost in the water, many of our children who ran away during the winter froze to death on their way home.”


.


So kids running away and dying is the wilderness is the fault of the schools.


.


“One of the worst stories I heard was a survivor saying that babies were put into incinerators in the schools,” she says. “These are crimes against humanity and crimes against children.”


.


lol Babies into incinerators. Next we're going to be hearing about milking machines that sucked the life out of boys and nuns dropping anvils on First Nations kids like they're villians out of Looney Toons cartoon.

[Edited 7/23/21 5:59am]





You forgot to mention this part of the article:



https://www.wbur.org/here...us-schools

Elder Evelyn Camille, a survivor of the Kamloops boarding school, said that fellow students had attempted to warn the authorities about the atrocities against children at the schools but their words fell on deaf ears.

“We tried to mention over, and over, and over, ‘there are many children missing,’ ” she told the audience….”



So basically you’re dismissing the accounts of some of the survivors, and that you don’t believe any abuse took place, that may have attributed to the death of some of the children who attended those schools.

See this is the problem when a group tries to tell of atrocities that happened to their ancestors, and some choose to ignore/turn a blind eye.

The crime in and of itself was creating those schools, and let’s be real here…it’s quite obvious the intention of those schools, was to destroy Native culture, and force them to submit to a foreign culture, by people who stole their land.

So besides the school situation, you would deny that no genocide happened to First Nations people or Native Americans, by their land being stolen by foreigners, no no forced removal from their homeland, no enslavement happened, no abuse, murder took place, and no transport of enslaved Indigenous to the Caribbean during the slave eras.
[Edited 7/23/21 12:30pm]
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Reply #92 posted 07/23/21 7:41am

Strive

I forgot to mention it by quoting the full quote, unlike you.

Strive said:

.

“We tried to mention over, and over, and over, ‘there are many children missing,’ ” she told the audience. “Many of our children tried to cross the river to swim across, many were lost in the water, many of our children who ran away during the winter froze to death on their way home.”

.

So kids running away and dying in the wilderness is the fault of the schools.

And yes, I'm dismissing the accounts of some of the survivors because they are saying outrageous stuff like "babies were thrown into incinerators in the schools" which cartoonish and absurd.

.

And I have a 100% valid reason to be concerned about the politics of all this when the leader of the Assembly of First Nations is publicly saying stuff like this. Again, from your own article. She's not only not condemning the burning of churches. She's saying more needs to be done. The entire system needs to be torn down.

A First Nations delegation will be headed to the Vatican this December to meet with Pope Francis, who has not apologized for the church’s role. Archibald has said she would not participate in the trip.
.

“We need more than an apology. We need reparations. We need justice,” she says. “We’re not going to get that by having a lovely visit with the pope in the Vatican.”

.
Since the first graves were discovered in May, at least five Catholic churches were set on fire in protest.

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She explains Canadians need to do more than destroy or burn the symbols and edificies of colonization. The entire system needs to be decolonized, she says.

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Also I posted links to 18 churches that were burned. The media only says five and that it was done "in protest". Well, I'm sure that was a simple mistake. One that they will explore in further articles the way that journalists do when reporting all sides of a story. rolleyes

[Edited 7/23/21 7:55am]

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Reply #93 posted 07/23/21 8:03am

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:

I forgot to mention it by quoting the full quote, unlike you.



Strive said:


.


“We tried to mention over, and over, and over, ‘there are many children missing,’ ” she told the audience. “Many of our children tried to cross the river to swim across, many were lost in the water, many of our children who ran away during the winter froze to death on their way home.”


.


So kids running away and dying in the wilderness is the fault of the schools.




And yes, I'm dismissing the accounts of some of the survivors because they are saying outrageous stuff like "babies were thrown into incinerators in the schools" which cartoonish and absurd.


.


And I have a 100% valid reason to be concerned about the politics of all this when the leader of the Assembly of First Nations is publicly saying stuff like this. Again, from your own article. She's not only not condemning the burning of churches. She's saying more needs to be done. The entire system needs to be torn down.




A First Nations delegation will be headed to the Vatican this December to meet with Pope Francis, who has not apologized for the church’s role. Archibald has said she would not participate in the trip.
.


“We need more than an apology. We need reparations. We need justice,” she says. “We’re not going to get that by having a lovely visit with the pope in the Vatican.”


.
Since the first graves were discovered in May, at least five Catholic churches were set on fire in protest.


.
She explains Canadians need to do more than destroy or burn the symbols and edificies of colonization. The entire system needs to be decolonized, she says.



[Edited 7/23/21 7:43am]

[Edited 7/23/21 7:43am]




I posted the part missing from that quote you posted, where it mentioned that many of the students tried to tell the school staff about the missing children, but they went unheard.

I guess everyone should care about how you feel about it, while you dismiss the accounts of the survivors, some of whom spoke of/witnessed the abuses that occurred in those schools.

At the end of the day, the decision as to what will come of this, will be up to the First Nations people, the Canadian government and what the results are based on any investigations taking place, that will determine the outcome of the situation.
[Edited 7/23/21 8:04am]
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Reply #94 posted 07/23/21 8:21am

Strive

Again, I posted the full quote that gives context to the why the kids were missing. If there were missing kids, they were missing because they ran away. That's the only thing we know for sure. That person claims they died in the wilderness.

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Nobody has made the claim that any kid was murdered and their murder concealed by being buried in an unmarked grave.

.

In fact, that link I posted said "Graves were traditionally marked with wooden crosses and this practice continues to this day in many Indigenous communities across Canada. Wooden crosses can deteriorate over time due to erosion or fire which can result in an unmarked grave. These factors, among others, make it extremely difficult to establish whether or not these unmarked graves contain the remains of children who attended the St. Eugene Residential School."

.

And the only claim of abuse in the article was a third party account of how "One of the worst stories I heard was a survivor saying that babies were put into incinerators in the schools"
.
Maybe if they weren't using such loaded language and putting the absurd stories at the forefront instead of actually explaining physical abuses took place, it would be easier to have sympathy for what took place and to greenlight an investigation into this.

.

We can all agree that forcibly taking kids from their homes is bad. Trying to forcibly assimilate them into society is bad. If abuses, beyond corporal punishment that was standard in all Catholic schools at the time, took place...that's a wrong that needs to be righted with an apology and compensation for their relatives (if there is any left)

.

Where we part is where you try to claim it's a genocide and that kids missing from the school because they ran away is proof that it was a genocide and that the people running the schools must have been cartoon villians that were putting babies into incinators and that this is where we must tear down all western civilization and replace it with communism.

.

[Edited 7/23/21 8:26am]

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Reply #95 posted 07/23/21 8:37am

Strive

While I was doing some research, I actually found out that it was the Catholic Church that funded one of these searches and that the money came from part of an insurance policy from a church that was burned down in 2018. Man, we really do live in Clownworld. haha.

https://leaderpost.com/ne...e-upgrades

Cowessess First Nation and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Regina have partnered to rejuvenate the gravesite, located on the reserve since 1898. The official partnership began last year and last week, the Archdiocese announced a $70,000 investment. Part of the money is for aesthetic upgrades, including trees and fences. It will also go toward identifying graves and creating a map of the site. A central monument for all individuals buried there is also planned, which will be beneficial for people like Lerat, who didn’t have the money to buy headstones.

Chief Cadmus Delorme said Cowessess partnered with the Archdiocese because the site includes graves of Catholic residents who lived nearby. Some attended Sacred Heart Catholic Church, which was on the reserve until it burned down last November. The $70,000 investment came from the insurance money collected after the fire.

The site was also located next to Marieval Residential School, which was in operation between 1898 and 1996. Because many graves are unmarked, it’s difficult to tell if any children from Marieval were buried there, but the Archdiocese said it’s likely because the school was in operation for so long and it was the community’s only burial site.


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https://nypost.com/2021/0...-burnings/

Canada’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission concluded in 2015 that at least 3,200 students died, later revising that figure to 4,100. The No. 1 cause of death was tuberculosis; influenza hit hard, too. Far from home, children were often buried on site, their graves marked with wooden crosses, most of which deteriorated and disappeared.
.

So this year’s “discoveries” are better called “confirmations.” As Assembly of First Nations national chief Perry Bellegarde declared, “While it is not new to find graves at former residential schools in Canada, it’s always crushing to have that chapter’s wounds exposed.”

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Yet the US press treated the news as if Canada had been hiding genocidal death camps.
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“Discovery of Mass Grave of Indigenous Children Prompts Grief and Questions” ran a Washington Post headline. “‘Horrible History’: Mass Grave of Indigenous Children Reported in Canada” was The New York Times’ headline.
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Those headlines were false — according to all three chiefs who made the discoveries. “This is not a mass grave site, this is just unmarked graves,” Cowessess First Nation chief Cadmus Delorme said of the biggest site. Indeed, the remains aren’t even believed to be all of children. A band leader said the site was a community cemetery, including graves of nonindigenous people — unmarked because wooden markers had decomposed.
.

The Washington Post eventually corrected “mass grave”; the Times’ headline remains.

[Edited 7/23/21 8:42am]

[Edited 7/23/21 8:44am]

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Reply #96 posted 07/23/21 8:42am

jjhunsecker

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Strive said:

Again, I posted the full quote that gives context to the why the kids were missing. If there were missing kids, they were missing because they ran away. That's the only thing we know for sure. That person claims they died in the wilderness.


.


Nobody has made the claim that any kid was murdered and their murder concealed by being buried in an unmarked grave.


.


In fact, that link I posted said "Graves were traditionally marked with wooden crosses and this practice continues to this day in many Indigenous communities across Canada. Wooden crosses can deteriorate over time due to erosion or fire which can result in an unmarked grave. These factors, among others, make it extremely difficult to establish whether or not these unmarked graves contain the remains of children who attended the St. Eugene Residential School."


.


And the only claim of abuse in the article was a third party account of how "One of the worst stories I heard was a survivor saying that babies were put into incinerators in the schools"
.
Maybe if they weren't using such loaded language and putting the absurd stories at the forefront instead of actually explaining physical abuses took place, it would be easier to have sympathy for what took place and to greenlight an investigation into this.


.


We can all agree that forcibly taking kids from their homes is bad. Trying to forcibly assimilate them into society is bad. If abuses, beyond corporal punishment that was standard in all Catholic schools at the time, took place...that's a wrong that needs to be righted with an apology and compensation for their relatives (if there is any left)


.


Where we part is where you try to claim it's a genocide and that kids missing from the school because they ran away is proof that it was a genocide and that the people running the schools must have been cartoon villians that were putting babies into incinators and that this is where we must tear down all western civilization and replace it with communism.


.

[Edited 7/23/21 8:26am]



Not one person here said “we must tear down Western civilization and replace it communism “. That’s a false argument and illustrates your delusions
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #97 posted 07/23/21 8:50am

jjhunsecker

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2elijah said:

SantanaMaitreya said:


That pretty much is my point. "I don't believe they had good intentions". It's not about what you believe! Studying history should be about gaining knowledge and finding out that people from the past had different beliefs from ours. What does that say about my own beliefs?
But reading your posts, it seems like you're doing the exact opposite: history is only there to prove that you were right all along.



Lmao….. if you want to gain knowledge of the past, then you also have to have an open mind, and not sugarcoat when a wrong was committed, and not excusing those wrongs by saying ‘ people in the past had different beliefs’ than ours. That’s basically excusing them for wrongs committed. I’m not buying that bs. Their intentions were to destroy the history, culture of First Nations people, while robbing them of their land. No sugarcoating. Certainly no denying it is an ugly history.
[Edited 7/23/21 5:31am]


Exactly! Like I said, if their beliefs led them to think that forced coercion, theft, violence, and the conviction of their superiority over others, were all perfectly fine as means to an end, then those beliefs should be scrutinized and questioned in the modern world
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #98 posted 07/23/21 11:42am

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:

Again, I posted the full quote that gives context to the why the kids were missing. If there were missing kids, they were missing because they ran away. That's the only thing we know for sure. That person claims they died in the wilderness.


.


Nobody has made the claim that any kid was murdered and their murder concealed by being buried in an unmarked grave.


.


In fact, that link I posted said "Graves were traditionally marked with wooden crosses and this practice continues to this day in many Indigenous communities across Canada. Wooden crosses can deteriorate over time due to erosion or fire which can result in an unmarked grave. These factors, among others, make it extremely difficult to establish whether or not these unmarked graves contain the remains of children who attended the St. Eugene Residential School."


.


And the only claim of abuse in the article was a third party account of how "One of the worst stories I heard was a survivor saying that babies were put into incinerators in the schools"
.
Maybe if they weren't using such loaded language and putting the absurd stories at the forefront instead of actually explaining physical abuses took place, it would be easier to have sympathy for what took place and to greenlight an investigation into this.


.


We can all agree that forcibly taking kids from their homes is bad. Trying to forcibly assimilate them into society is bad. If abuses, beyond corporal punishment that was standard in all Catholic schools at the time, took place...that's a wrong that needs to be righted with an apology and compensation for their relatives (if there is any left)


.


Where we part is where you try to claim it's a genocide and that kids missing from the school because they ran away is proof that it was a genocide and that the people running the schools must have been cartoon villians that were putting babies into incinators and that this is where we must tear down all western civilization and replace it with communism.


.

[Edited 7/23/21 8:26am]


You must be losing sleep because I never said it was Genocide regarding the schools, however I won’t discount what happened to First Nations people isn’t considered Genocide, considering the history of what happened to many of them.


The person in the article mentioned Genocide regarding Secondly, again, it was you who mentioned a survivor stating babies being put into incinerators. I see the problem with you is your insecurity that if any evidence of physical abuse or death by murder found to be true, against those children, makes you uncomfortable if evidence shows that members of the Catholic Church committed it.

You’ve already presented your bias towards the survivors by immediately discounting what some witnessed, so it says a lot about where you stand with this topic, as your view comes across as it’s all a lie to you. I’ll stick with the survivors account. Your view is full of bias and denial of actual survivors/witnesses’ accounts of abuse.
[Edited 7/23/21 11:56am]
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Reply #99 posted 07/23/21 12:04pm

Strive

I literally just quoted your article. I didn't go looking for the absurd. You brought it to me. If I'm a denier because I won't believe some third party account of somebody claiming that they saw babies being thrown into incinerators in the schools, whatever.

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Reply #100 posted 07/23/21 12:19pm

2elijah

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

2elijah said:




Lmao….. if you want to gain knowledge of the past, then you also have to have an open mind, and not sugarcoat when a wrong was committed, and not excusing those wrongs by saying ‘ people in the past had different beliefs’ than ours. That’s basically excusing them for wrongs committed. I’m not buying that bs. Their intentions were to destroy the history, culture of First Nations people, while robbing them of their land. No sugarcoating. Certainly no denying it is an ugly history.
[Edited 7/23/21 5:31am]


Exactly! Like I said, if their beliefs led them to think that forced coercion, theft, violence, and the conviction of their superiority over others, were all perfectly fine as means to an end, then those beliefs should be scrutinized and questioned in the modern world

Agree, and for some to say those folks in the past, believed they were doing good, doesn’t make sense, because those schools ran through the late 1990s, so by then they couldn’t see what they were doing by removing children from their homes, to send them to school to force assimilation? Didn’t this same thing happen in Australia?

If abuses happened in any form, that was cause of death to some of those Native children, then the families and communities have a right to know, especially if any of those deaths wasn’t because of illness. If survivors are giving their accounts of what they witnessed, then people should at least respect what they have to say and not be so quick to label it a lie. But why am I not surprised, at the quickness by some, to dismiss/deny/downplay what many survivors have expressed about their experiences? That kind of response is all too familiar. wink
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Reply #101 posted 07/23/21 12:28pm

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:

I literally just quoted your article. I didn't go looking for the absurd. You brought it to me. If I'm a denier because I won't believe some third party account of somebody claiming that they saw babies being thrown into incinerators in the schools, whatever.


You stated that I said what the survivors stated in the article. It was their comments not mine. I just shared the article and gave my opinion.

No one here is asking you to believe anything, about what any of the survivors witnessed or said, because at the end of the day you will not have any authority to make the final decision on the matter, from any investigation or communication between the First Nations people, survivors, and the Canadian government. But you’re welcome to keep complaining and airing your angst on the matter.
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Reply #102 posted 07/23/21 12:35pm

Strive

Well, if it was a genocide like you claim, they did a piss poor job if they only managed to kill 4,100 kids (by disease) from 1898 to 1996. It seems like a very ineffective way to carry out genocide. Especially when you think of how many First Nation kids must have attended those schools over the 98 years they were open. If they were cartoonishly throwing babies into the furnace, that kill count should be way higher, right?

.

And you once again push the fantasy narrative that this is the family members and communites looking for signs of abuse. That isn't true. They don't even know if it's kids from the schools in those graves. They're just trying to identify the people they can and honor the dead by putting up a monument for those they can't. (oh and the evil Catholic Church bankrolled that as an olive branch)
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They aren't digging up the graves. They aren't doing CSI autopsies trying to determine cause of death.

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That's all shit you just made up in your brain.

.

[Edited 7/23/21 12:38pm]

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Reply #103 posted 07/23/21 1:55pm

SantanaMaitrey
a

2elijah said:

SantanaMaitreya said:


That pretty much is my point. "I don't believe they had good intentions". It's not about what you believe! Studying history should be about gaining knowledge and finding out that people from the past had different beliefs from ours. What does that say about my own beliefs?
But reading your posts, it seems like you're doing the exact opposite: history is only there to prove that you were right all along.



Lmao….. if you want to gain knowledge of the past, then you also have to have an open mind, and not sugarcoat when a wrong was committed, and not excusing those wrongs by saying ‘ people in the past had different beliefs’ than ours. That’s basically excusing them for wrongs committed. I’m not buying that bs. Their intentions were to destroy the history, culture of First Nations people, while robbing them of their land. No sugarcoating. Certainly no denying it is an ugly history.
[Edited 7/23/21 5:31am]

I'm not excusing anything. And you don't exactly have an open mind yourself.
If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger tool than I am.
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Reply #104 posted 07/23/21 1:57pm

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:

Well, if it was a genocide like you claim, they did a piss poor job if they only managed to kill 4,100 kids (by disease) from 1898 to 1996. It seems like a very ineffective way to carry out genocide. Especially when you think of how many First Nation kids must have attended those schools over the 98 years they were open. If they were cartoonishly throwing babies into the furnace, that kill count should be way higher, right?


.


And you once again push the fantasy narrative that this is the family members and communites looking for signs of abuse. That isn't true. They don't even know if it's kids from the schools in those graves. They're just trying to identify the people they can and honor the dead by putting up a monument for those they can't. (oh and the evil Catholic Church bankrolled that as an olive branch)
.
They aren't digging up the graves. They aren't doing CSI autopsies trying to determine cause of death.


.


That's all shit you just made up in your brain.


.

[Edited 7/23/21 12:38pm]


You need to calm down. What is your problem with any accusations of abuse from survivors who witnessed and are sharing what happened when they were there? It’s as if, you think you have some right to tell the survivors they’re liars drumming up fantasies about what happened. Then accusing me of making comments, that were actually made by those quoted in the articles. Smh.

You’re looking for any reason to dismiss the survivors’ accounts, because of your bias against anyone exposing any possible abuse to any of those children, that may have been committed by members of those schools.

Your fantasized assumption of ‘it’s about taking power and the ones vandalizing burning churches are communists’ is a bit far fetched. Yeah… maybe you need to take a break from the topic. hmmm
.
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Reply #105 posted 07/23/21 1:58pm

2elijah

avatar

SantanaMaitreya said:

2elijah said:




Lmao….. if you want to gain knowledge of the past, then you also have to have an open mind, and not sugarcoat when a wrong was committed, and not excusing those wrongs by saying ‘ people in the past had different beliefs’ than ours. That’s basically excusing them for wrongs committed. I’m not buying that bs. Their intentions were to destroy the history, culture of First Nations people, while robbing them of their land. No sugarcoating. Certainly no denying it is an ugly history.
[Edited 7/23/21 5:31am]

I'm not excusing anything. And you don't exactly have an open mind yourself.

Yeah ok.. lol. You have a good day.
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Reply #106 posted 07/23/21 2:11pm

Strive

2elijah said:

What is your problem with any accusations of abuse from survivors who witnessed and are sharing what happened when they were there? It’s as if, you think you have some right to tell the survivors they’re liars drumming up fantasies about what happened.

What's my problem with a third hand account of "babies were put into incinerators in the schools" being treated as gospel?
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What's my problem with people using loaded language and highly charged rhetoric and misdirection of the facts to describe past events, which inspired 18 acts of arson against houses of worship within a month's time?

.

It's a mystery, 2elijah. Complete mystery.

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Reply #107 posted 07/23/21 2:20pm

2elijah

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Some research on the residential schools that existed in Canada.

Apparently there was allegations of excessive punishment, physical and sexual abuse, in some of those schools, according to this article:


https://www.thecanadianen...al-schools



Residential Schools in Canada

Updated by Tabitha Marshall, David Gallant
Published Online October 10, 2012
Last Edited June 1, 2021


Abuse at Residential Schools

Many students suffered abuse at residential schools. Impatience and correction often led to excessive punishment, including physical abuse. In some cases, children were heavily beaten, chained or confined.”

Some of the staff were sexual predators, and many students were sexually abused. When allegations of sexual abuse were brought forward — by students, parents or staff — the response by government and church officials was, at best, inadequate.The police were seldom contacted, and, even if government or church officials decided that the complaint had merit, the response was often simply to fire the perpetrator. At other times, they allowed the abuser to keep teaching.


(Edited for compliance)

Health, Death and Disease at Residential Schools

According to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), at least 3,200 Indigenous children died in the overcrowded residential schools. Due to poor record-keeping by the churches and federal government, it is unlikely that we will ever know the total loss of life at residential schools. However, according to TRC Chair, Justice Murray Sinclair, the number may be more than 6,000.

In May of 2021, results from a ground survey at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School in Kamloops, BC, uncovered the remains of 215 children buried at the site. The nearby Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation had hired a team of specialists using ground-penetrating radar to find the remains. Chief Rosanne Casimir said that the process of identifying the children’s remains has been ongoing since the early 2000s. A recent grant from BC’s Pathway to Healing program provided the funding for the ground-penetrating radar technology.

In operation by the Catholic Church from 1890 to 1969, the Kamloops Indian Residential School reported having up to 500 children registered each year, according to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation (NCTR). The 2008 TRC was told that only 50 deaths had occurred at the institution. The school officially closed in 1978 after the federal government took over control in 1969.

There have been findings using ground penetrating technologies at very few residential school burial sites due to the sensitive process and impact on communities. It is presumed that historical records pertaining to deaths at the institutions are flawed due to some Catholic orders withholding statistics on the institutions. As a result, similar findings, such as those at the Kamloops Indian Residential School could occur in the future.

Underfed and malnourished, the students were particularly vulnerable to diseases such as tuberculosis and influenza (including the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918–19). Food was low in quantity and poor in quality, in large part due to concerns about cost. Faced with limited funding, schools were instructed to observe “the strictest economy… in all particulars.” In general, school menus seem to have been both monotonous and nutritionally inadequate. According to Basil Johnston, who attended the residential school in Spanish, Ontario, he was served “mush, mush, mush, sometimes lumpy, sometimes watery, with monotonous regularity every Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday.”



Although medical experts such as Dr. Peter Bryce, Dr. James Lafferty, Dr. O.I. Grain and Dr. E.L. Stone recommended measures to improve health and medical treatment, these were not implemented by the government, largely due to concerns about cost and opposition by the churches.

”The schools could have helped children to reduce their vulnerability to tuberculosis by providing them with sanitary, well-ventilated living quarters, an adequate diet, warm clothing, and sufficient rest. Rather, the residential schools regularly failed to provide the healthy living conditions, nutritious food, sufficient clothing, and physical regime that would prevent students from getting sick in the first place, and would allow those who were infected a fighting chance at recovery.”

[Edited 7/23/21 14:29pm]
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Reply #108 posted 07/23/21 2:26pm

2elijah

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Continued..

https://www.thecanadianen...al-schools



Key Facts About Residential Schools


What were residential schools? Residential schools were government-sponsored schools run by churches.

What was the purpose of residential schools? The purpose of residential schools was to educate and convert Indigenous youth and to assimilate them into Canadian society.

How many students attended residential schools? An estimated 150,000 children attended residential schools.

How many children died at residential schools? An estimated 6,000 children died at residential schools (records are incomplete).

How many residential schools were there in Canada? In total, over 130 residential schools operated in Canada between 1831 and 1996.

In 1931, there were 80 residential schools operating in Canada. This was the most at any one time.

When did the first residential school in Canada open? The Mohawk Institute in Brantford, Ontario, accepted its first boarding students in 1831.

When did the last residential school in Canada close? The Gordon Residential School in Punnichy, Saskatchewan, closed in 1996. It was the last federally-funded residential school in Canada.
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Reply #109 posted 07/23/21 2:46pm

PennyPurple

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2elijah said:



Exactly, because if that happened today, it would be questioned and investigated.

Well look how the Catholic Church has sexually abused boys.

It's still not ALL out in the open, and there are cover ups, Galore.

U.S.A.
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Reply #110 posted 07/23/21 2:47pm

2elijah

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PennyPurple said:



2elijah said:






Exactly, because if that happened today, it would be questioned and investigated.

Well look how the Catholic Church has sexually abused boys.


It's still not ALL out in the open, and there are cover ups, Galore.


So true.
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Reply #111 posted 07/23/21 2:53pm

Strive

It doesn't help what you're trying to push but, sure, I like reading.
.
"Underfed and malnourished, the students were particularly vulnerable to diseases such as tuberculosis and influenza (including the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918–19). Food was low in quantity and poor in quality, in large part due to concerns about cost. Faced with limited funding, schools were instructed to observe “the strictest economy… in all particulars.”

.

Ok, so from your own link, it says that the deaths were related to diseases of the time and that they weren't underfed out of malice but out of a lack of funding. Which raises some good questions. Why was the funding so low? Was the government not providing enough money to run these schools? Was it the Canadian government or the higher levels of the church that instructed the schools to observe "the strictest economy"? Did the church push back against health recommendations because there was no money to implement them? In what way did they "push back"?

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Because the way I'm reading it...it sounds like medical experts from the late 1880s/1900s - volunteering their time to help - made recommendations to the government, the government passed those recommendations onto the church and the church went "lol no, we can't afford it"

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So it's incompetence of all parties involved but it's still a million miles away from the claim of genocide and the people running those schools being so evil that they were throwing babies into the incinerators. There's no reality where that story makes sense.

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This whole discussion is making me want to track down the TRC report on this to see more details regarding the physical abuse claims.

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(No shit the church wasn't good at handing sexual abuse allegations in the past. That isn't news)

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(Also if the numbers you provided are true. That means that 0.04% of students died from disease over the course of 98 years. And I'm guessing that the majority of those deaths took place in the late 1880s/early 1900s. But you didn't provide a breakdown so I can only guess off of what you provided for me to read. If it was modern, there would be first hand accounts and accusations)

.

[Edited 7/23/21 14:58pm]

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Reply #112 posted 07/23/21 2:58pm

PennyPurple

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Strive said:

.

(Yes and no shit the church wasn't good at handing sexual abuse allegations in the past. That isn't news)

.

eek In the PAST? How about in the PRESENT.


The Catholic Church has hid a lot of things it has done.

U.S.A.
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Reply #113 posted 07/23/21 3:11pm

Strive

PennyPurple said:

eek In the PAST? How about in the PRESENT.


The Catholic Church has hid a lot of things it has done.

The present where I had to get fingerprinted and a background check and had to watch a hour long training video about approriate behavior/how to react to claims of abuse because there was a possiblity that I might be around children while lectoring?
.
(If you're curious, the church's current stance is to always report it to the police first and if it's a kid accusing their parent of abusing them, don't inform the parent before you contact the police.)

.

The Church would be alot more open if there wasn't financial liability hanging over its head. Despite what you might think, the Catholic Church's riches aren't liquid. It's property and priceless artifacts. The big dioceses can take the hit but small ones can't.

[Edited 7/23/21 15:11pm]

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Reply #114 posted 07/23/21 3:47pm

PennyPurple

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Strive said:

PennyPurple said:

eek In the PAST? How about in the PRESENT.


The Catholic Church has hid a lot of things it has done.

The present where I had to get fingerprinted and a background check and had to watch a hour long training video about approriate behavior/how to react to claims of abuse because there was a possiblity that I might be around children while lectoring?
.
(If you're curious, the church's current stance is to always report it to the police first and if it's a kid accusing their parent of abusing them, don't inform the parent before you contact the police.)

.

The Church would be alot more open if there wasn't financial liability hanging over its head. Despite what you might think, the Catholic Church's riches aren't liquid. It's property and priceless artifacts. The big dioceses can take the hit but small ones can't.

[Edited 7/23/21 15:11pm]

Join the club, I had to get gingerprinted, and background checked for my job. Lot's of us do.


The Catholic church does not have a history of being very forthcoming. Even NOW they aren't forthcoming.

U.S.A.
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Reply #115 posted 07/23/21 4:22pm

Strive

PennyPurple said:

Join the club, I had to get fingerprinted, and background checked for my job. Lot's of us do.


The Catholic church does not have a history of being very forthcoming. Even NOW they aren't forthcoming.


Name another religion or organization that goes through the same process for volunteers that have a possiblity of being around children. And alot of the stuff in the video was way overly cautious, but they are trying to do right.

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And what has that gotten them? Universal derision. Their enemies using it to try to tear down the church.

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Even in this case, the local church gave $70,000 as an olive branch so that local First Nations tribe could find unmarked graves and renovate the cemetery and build a monument marker for all those who are unknown. What did it get them? International press coverage about "mass graves" being "discovered", the national First Nations leader calling them perpetrators of genocide and a number of their churches being burned down.

[Edited 7/23/21 16:23pm]

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Reply #116 posted 07/23/21 4:28pm

IanRG

Strive said:

PennyPurple said:

eek In the PAST? How about in the PRESENT.


The Catholic Church has hid a lot of things it has done.

The present where I had to get fingerprinted and a background check and had to watch a hour long training video about approriate behavior/how to react to claims of abuse because there was a possiblity that I might be around children while lectoring?
.
(If you're curious, the church's current stance is to always report it to the police first and if it's a kid accusing their parent of abusing them, don't inform the parent before you contact the police.)

.

The Church would be alot more open if there wasn't financial liability hanging over its head. Despite what you might think, the Catholic Church's riches aren't liquid. It's property and priceless artifacts. The big dioceses can take the hit but small ones can't.

[Edited 7/23/21 15:11pm]

.

As both a practicing Catholic heavily involved with the running of my local church and it Sunday evening Mass and a victim of childhood sexual abuse by a member of clergy, I could not care less about you needing to be background checked etc. and I commend the Church for doing this.

.

My abuser was in an Anglican (not Catholic but this makes no difference) ring that was run by a person who was a senior person in the local theology college and in managing children who were altar servers across the Diocese. He was protected by the local Bishops. He had a special room in the local orphanage for him and his inner circle to gang rape boys (I was never in that room, but I know people who were). This is what you are required by your faith to address. Not whether you are inconvenienced by processes to protect children that are common across many countries and across many religious, sporting, educational and cultural institutions. Not seeking to justify where people are still today hiding the truth and lying to cover up evil because of potential financial impacts. Not seeking to dismiss real concerns as just communists attacking Canadian pride. Not seeking to support the far-right obsession with treating any teaching of history that makes the far right and white supremacists look bad as CRT.

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Reply #117 posted 07/23/21 4:52pm

2elijah

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IanRG said:



Strive said:




PennyPurple said:


eek In the PAST? How about in the PRESENT.



The Catholic Church has hid a lot of things it has done.




The present where I had to get fingerprinted and a background check and had to watch a hour long training video about approriate behavior/how to react to claims of abuse because there was a possiblity that I might be around children while lectoring?
.
(If you're curious, the church's current stance is to always report it to the police first and if it's a kid accusing their parent of abusing them, don't inform the parent before you contact the police.)


.


The Church would be alot more open if there wasn't financial liability hanging over its head. Despite what you might think, the Catholic Church's riches aren't liquid. It's property and priceless artifacts. The big dioceses can take the hit but small ones can't.


[Edited 7/23/21 15:11pm]



.


As both a practicing Catholic heavily involved with the running of my local church and it Sunday evening Mass and a victim of childhood sexual abuse by a member of clergy, I could not care less about you needing to be background checked etc. and I commend the Church for doing this.


.


My abuser was in an Anglican (not Catholic but this makes no difference) ring that was run by a person who was a senior person in the local theology college and in managing children who were altar servers across the Diocese. He was protected by the local Bishops. He had a special room in the local orphanage for him and his inner circle to gang rape boys (I was never in that room, but I know people who were). This is what you are required by your faith to address. Not whether you are inconvenienced by processes to protect children that are common across many countries and across many religious, sporting, educational and cultural institutions. Not seeking to justify where people are still today hiding the truth and lying to cover up evil because of potential financial impacts. Not seeking to dismiss real concerns as just communists attacking Canadian pride. Not seeking to support the far-right obsession with treating any teaching of history that makes the far right and white supremacists look bad as CRT.


This^^. clapping

(Also, sorry to hear what happened to you Ian, and hope your abuser answered for for what he did to you).
[Edited 7/23/21 16:52pm]
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Reply #118 posted 07/23/21 6:15pm

jjhunsecker

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Strive said:



PennyPurple said:


eek In the PAST? How about in the PRESENT.



The Catholic Church has hid a lot of things it has done.




The present where I had to get fingerprinted and a background check and had to watch a hour long training video about approriate behavior/how to react to claims of abuse because there was a possiblity that I might be around children while lectoring?
.
(If you're curious, the church's current stance is to always report it to the police first and if it's a kid accusing their parent of abusing them, don't inform the parent before you contact the police.)


.


The Church would be alot more open if there wasn't financial liability hanging over its head. Despite what you might think, the Catholic Church's riches aren't liquid. It's property and priceless artifacts. The big dioceses can take the hit but small ones can't.

[Edited 7/23/21 15:11pm]



They need to sell all of that shit and pay off the abuse survivors. Sell of St Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC if they have to,

Because not nearly enough has been done to compensate the victims-across decades if not centuries- of these degenerate priests and their enablers
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #119 posted 07/23/21 6:52pm

IanRG

jjhunsecker said:

Strive said:

The present where I had to get fingerprinted and a background check and had to watch a hour long training video about approriate behavior/how to react to claims of abuse because there was a possiblity that I might be around children while lectoring?
.
(If you're curious, the church's current stance is to always report it to the police first and if it's a kid accusing their parent of abusing them, don't inform the parent before you contact the police.)

.

The Church would be alot more open if there wasn't financial liability hanging over its head. Despite what you might think, the Catholic Church's riches aren't liquid. It's property and priceless artifacts. The big dioceses can take the hit but small ones can't.

[Edited 7/23/21 15:11pm]

They need to sell all of that shit and pay off the abuse survivors. Sell of St Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC if they have to, Because not nearly enough has been done to compensate the victims-across decades if not centuries- of these degenerate priests and their enablers

.

"For when two or three are gathered in my Name, I am there among them".

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Temples, buildings and assets come and go, the Body of the Church is us. We can meet in a shed, a community hall, whatever. But we will only continue to meet and do the good works if we maintain faith and not see it destroyed by those who seek to protect pride and assets or to protect sins done by people, many of whom have already had to answer to God (including my abuser and his groomer and protector).

.

Much of what was done in these residential schools would have been positive, good and of great benefit. This does not excuse where what was done by the government and the organisations and people involved was evil. In my area many of the local denominations have rationalised assets and landholdings to better serve the community by correcting for past wrongs.

.

Where people decide it is better to protect the organisations and the assets than the people, this is why people move away from these organisations. Is it better have all the assets mostly empty or to seek to better follow the teachings by Christ and therefore encourage others by our example, honesty and commitment to work for all?

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