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Reply #60 posted 07/21/21 9:40pm

jjhunsecker

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Beware of anti Semites and bigots preaching morality and religion
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #61 posted 07/21/21 9:51pm

Strive

jjhunsecker said:

Beware of anti Semites and bigots preaching morality and religion

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Reply #62 posted 07/21/21 10:05pm

IanRG

Strive said:

PennyPurple said:

Oh sheesh, don't tell me you are harassing Ian in orgnotes now... pc

I sent him a book recommendation. A Church in Crisis: Pathways Forward By Ralph Martin. Is book recommendations harassment now? lol

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No you left the harrassment as part of your desire for public spectacles.

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And still no apology for your offensive false accusation.

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Reply #63 posted 07/21/21 10:09pm

Strive

You are a liar and only a christian when you need to be for an argument and you have to have the last word publically but have no desire to have a conversation without an audience.

I give you a bunch of chances to prove me wrong, Ian, and you behave the same way everytime.

So what is there to apologize for?

(Now lets see if you have the self-control to not respond to this)

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Reply #64 posted 07/21/21 10:34pm

IanRG

Strive said:

You are a liar and only a christian when you need to be for an argument and you have to have the last word publically but have no desire to have a conversation without an audience.

I give you a bunch of chances to prove me wrong, Ian, and you behave the same way everytime.

So what is there to apologize for?

(Now lets see if you have the self-control to not respond to this)

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This is just another of your posts made only to make another public spectacle

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I have not lied at all. You did attack me with the offensive and false accusatuion that "You are evil. You work for Satan. It's pointless to talk to you. I pray you repent but I doubt you will."

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Proof of this is your post #25 in this very thread.

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Reply #25 posted 07/05/21 2:06pm

Strive¤

onnow.gif

IanRG said:

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Once you fail to hold on to your ideals because you are too scared of the people that hold on to their's you have already lost.

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There always being some issue is life.

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Always seeking to do the right thing about each issue means never dismissing it as that is just being a commies or anti-white. As soon as you do this - YOU are the problem: You become the person always finding something. Others will see that for you it is never enough. See you find every white person wronged by a person of another race. See you take steps so others never seek to raise their heads as equals again. See you get them to pay damages by not being paid as equals or not having equal rights and access. See you have them kiss whichever national flag and celebrate the day they were invaded, enslaved etc. See you have every one of them publicly announce just how good and thankful they are for the white-washed history of colonisation and expansion forced to be taught in schools and on it goes. It is all about maintaining your power and it is never enough.

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Or we can see you address issue as it arises and see you find the best, fairest, most equitable solution for all in line with the best aspects of religious and moral beliefs where you show your ministry by knowing when to take the knocks for your failings, when to work together without any concern for what political flavour or ethnic hertiage the other person has. And when you must draw the line against the evils done by, or in the name of, every side of politics or every belief held including, and especially, your own.

Negative again.

The Christian ideal is to not hate them. Even thought they are doing Satan's work and trying to destroy and enslave us, we shouldn't hate them.

I am not giving up that ideal even as I call a spade a spade.

You are evil. You work for Satan. It's pointless to talk to you. I pray you repent but I doubt you will.

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Seeking to get the people you come here to publicly attack to show self control by not responding to your attacks says much more about you than anyone else.

[Edited 7/21/21 22:44pm]

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Reply #65 posted 07/22/21 6:03am

2elijah

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Back on topic….

The descendants of these families, deserve acknowledgement, an investigation and an apology from the Catholic Church and both the Canadian and U.S. governments, who took part in creating these boarding schools, and forcing First Nations/Native American children into these schools to denounce their cultures and force them to assimilate/accept a culture that was never theirs. Not to mention acknowledging and apologizing to these communities, regarding accusations of abuses that many survivors today, who attended those schools, were either victims of abuse or witnessed it. Also making sure the graves found are moved to proper burial sites within their respective communities.


https://www.americamagazi...ion-240950



EDITORIALS
AUGUST 2021 ISSUE
The Catholic Church must come clean—completely—about what it did to Native Americans
The Editors
June 30, 2021


“Canada’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission has helped all Canadians and First Nations communities grapple with the
The recent discovery of hundreds of unmarked graves at two schools, and the likelihood that thousands more will be found at other residential school sites, have added to the anguish. But at least in Canada, a foundation for healing is being laid by the government-sponsored truth and reconciliation commission.”

No similar process has started in the United States, though many of the same outrages likely occurred on this side of the border, in the system of more than 350 Native American boarding schools in the 19th century that were the model for the Canadian network. And just as in Canada, the Catholic Church had a significant role in the administration of this “schooling,” which stripped Native American children of their languages and cultures.”


(Edited for compliance)

“For decades the people of God were anguished by the obfuscation on the part of those church leaders who allowed only a trickle of incomplete document releases from diocesan and provincial archives while investigators struggled to get to the truth about the abuse of children by U.S. priests and the coverup of those crimes. The church in the United States must demonstrate that it has learned from the suffering such failures imposed on survivors, their families and Catholics everywhere.

Now is the time and here is the opportunity. As this preliminary investigation begins, the church must bring everything out into the light—completely and quickly. U.S. church officials should vigorously seek out and share the archives and material locked away in chanceries, academic archives and the attics of religious communities. Forgiveness and healing can begin only after the most difficult part is addressed: confronting the past, speaking the truth, revealing the worst.“
[Edited 7/22/21 6:08am]
PRESIDENT BIDEN, VICE-PRESIDENT HARRIS clapping
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Reply #66 posted 07/22/21 6:17am

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

Beware of anti Semites and bigots preaching morality and religion

I honestly can’t understand why some folks have a problem with those speaking out about atrocities that happened in this country or another, in the past, to members of specific communities, especially when those victims had ‘no voice’ when it happened to them. Their descendants have a right to to make sure those lives had value and what happened to them was wrong, and to make sure those atrocities are not kept hidden or lied about, especially since many textbooks exclude these kinds of historical tragedies or either sugarcoat/lie about it.

For instance, for one to think they were helping First Nations/Native Americans by forcing their children from their homes, into schools to intentionally denounce their cultures/history/languages ‘was not to ‘[ihelp them’, as someone suggested. That in and of itself would be just another way to hide the truth of the intention behind those schools.
[Edited 7/22/21 6:20am]
PRESIDENT BIDEN, VICE-PRESIDENT HARRIS clapping
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Reply #67 posted 07/22/21 7:49am

Strive

2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:
Beware of anti Semites and bigots preaching morality and religion
I honestly can’t understand why some folks have a problem with those speaking out about atrocities that happened in this country or another, in the past, to members of specific communities, especially when those victims had ‘no voice’ when it happened to them. Their descendants have a right to to make sure those lives had value and what happened to them was wrong, and to make sure those atrocities are not kept hidden or lied about, especially since many textbooks exclude these kinds of historical tragedies or either sugarcoat/lie about it. For instance, for one to think they were helping First Nations/Native Americans by forcing their children from their homes, into schools to intentionally denounce their cultures/history/languages ‘was not to ‘[ihelp them’, as someone suggested. That in and of itself would be just another way to hide the truth of the intention behind those schools. [Edited 7/22/21 6:20am]

The idea was to intergrate them fully into Canadian society. Make them the same as any other citizen. We can see now that's bad, especially the way it was done, but it wasn't done out of malice.

Even though the schools were run until the mid 90s, any deaths that occurred happened during the early 1900s from diseases that usually runs through overpopulated settings.

If you can't understand why people would be against subpar reporting on the past (this "mass grave" was discovered in an old cemetery where the wooden grave markers were lost to time & they don't actually know if it's students in the graves since they didn't dig them up) that resulted in 18 churches being burned down within a month's time, I don't know what to tell you.

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I've asked multiple times, how Canada can make this right to the First Nations, and nobody has given me an answer. That's because no action taken can be great enough and they don't actually care about making it right for the victims. They only care about advancing their agenda and taking power for their allies.

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See Ian's post on "oh you make this right by making sure it's never happen again...also we need to teach children CRT"

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The schools were closed 25 years ago, the deaths occured over a 100 years ago. It's terrible it happened. It should never happen again. That doesn't mean that any pride people have in their country should be suppressed and they should eternally self-flagellate themselves for their ancestors mistakes.

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[Edited 7/22/21 7:53am]

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Reply #68 posted 07/22/21 9:53am

SantanaMaitrey
a

The motto was: "kill the Indian to save the man".
If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger tool than I am.
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Reply #69 posted 07/22/21 12:44pm

2elijah

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Strive said:



2elijah said:


jjhunsecker said:
Beware of anti Semites and bigots preaching morality and religion

I honestly can’t understand why some folks have a problem with those speaking out about atrocities that happened in this country or another, in the past, to members of specific communities, especially when those victims had ‘no voice’ when it happened to them. Their descendants have a right to to make sure those lives had value and what happened to them was wrong, and to make sure those atrocities are not kept hidden or lied about, especially since many textbooks exclude these kinds of historical tragedies or either sugarcoat/lie about it. For instance, for one to think they were helping First Nations/Native Americans by forcing their children from their homes, into schools to intentionally denounce their cultures/history/languages ‘was not to ‘[ihelp them’, as someone suggested. That in and of itself would be just another way to hide the truth of the intention behind those schools. [Edited 7/22/21 6:20am]


The idea was to intergrate them fully into Canadian society. Make them the same as any other citizen. We can see now that's bad, especially the way it was done, but it wasn't done out of malice.



Even though the schools were run until the mid 90s, any deaths that occurred happened during the early 1900s from diseases that usually runs through overpopulated settings.

If you can't understand why people would be against subpar reporting on the past (this "mass grave" was discovered in an old cemetery where the wooden grave markers were lost to time & they don't actually know if it's students in the graves since they didn't dig them up) that resulted in 18 churches being burned down within a month's time, I don't know what to tell you.


.


I've asked multiple times, how Canada can make this right to the First Nations, and nobody has given me an answer. That's because no action taken can be great enough and they don't actually care about making it right for the victims. They only care about advancing their agenda and taking power for their allies.


.


See Ian's post on "oh you make this right by making sure it's never happen again...also we need to teach children CRT"


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The schools were closed 25 years ago, the deaths occured over a 100 years ago. It's terrible it happened. It should never happen again. That doesn't mean that any pride people have in their country should be suppressed and they should eternally self-flagellate themselves for their ancestors mistakes.


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[Edited 7/22/21 7:53am]



Ok, this is going to be a long one….

Let’s look at how telling an entire group of people that they are not allowed to embrace their history, culture or language, in a land that they inhabited first, by foreigners who claim they wanted to ‘help them’.

It was the European immigrants who were the foreigners, not the First Nations/Native Americans. So who were these foreigners who invaded a land that wasn’t theirs, given the right to tell the original inhabitants they had to conform to their way of life, speak their language and only embrace their culture? Let’s face it… it was not helping them.. it was destroying who they were and disrespecting their history/culture. Look at the damage the ‘so-called help’ did to many of them. The foreigners may have thought they were helping them, but at the same time, the intention of that help was to force them to submit to a culture that was not theirs, so that they would not be a threat to the European immigrants who stole their land, and to make them believe western culture was superior culture.

The past has so many mistakes, that learning from those mistakes is to not allow it to happen again, by acknowledging those wrongs, and to hopefully be better humans beings than those who participated in acts of Genocide/human abuse, etc., like many in the past.

That’s the purpose of ‘listening’ to the survivors account, and allowing the investigations to pursue, as yes, many of those children may have died from diseases such as TB, but let’s not just only use that, to steer away from the possibility that there has also been accusations of abuse to many of those children, that may have contributed to their cause of death.

It’s really not up to you, me or any non-Native to accept which way to correct this. It’s really up to the descendants to question/express their opinion about their deceased relatives who passed, and may have suffered abuses, when they attended those schools, as well as, the living survivors, to meet with the Canadian and U.S. governments, to find a way to decide what’s the right way to handle it. All others can do is give their opinion. You don’t have to agree with what that community decides is the right way to deal with this.

I also don’t think any community, would think violence is the answer in resolving these type issues, but unfortunately, out of anger some sought to use violence against Catholic Churches. That in and of itself, should not be an excuse, to overlook the main issue of the graves of Native children found, and questions about their death, possible abuses against some/many of the deceased children, and living survivors who either witnessed those abuses or were survivors of abuse, when attending those schools.

It may be years later, these accounts of abuse are being exposed, but maybe because when survivors tried to tell their stories..… nobody really listened or cared.
[Edited 7/22/21 12:56pm]
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Reply #70 posted 07/22/21 1:18pm

SantanaMaitrey
a

^Yeah, that's all very easy to say more than a hundred years later. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but when we study the past we should take off our 21st century glasses in order to see more clearly. The people who started these schools really did believe that killing the Indian was the best way to save the men (and women). Just like the Europeans who colonized Africa believed they were bringing civilization.
If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger tool than I am.
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Reply #71 posted 07/22/21 1:35pm

IanRG

Strive said:

2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said: I honestly can’t understand why some folks have a problem with those speaking out about atrocities that happened in this country or another, in the past, to members of specific communities, especially when those victims had ‘no voice’ when it happened to them. Their descendants have a right to to make sure those lives had value and what happened to them was wrong, and to make sure those atrocities are not kept hidden or lied about, especially since many textbooks exclude these kinds of historical tragedies or either sugarcoat/lie about it. For instance, for one to think they were helping First Nations/Native Americans by forcing their children from their homes, into schools to intentionally denounce their cultures/history/languages ‘was not to ‘[ihelp them’, as someone suggested. That in and of itself would be just another way to hide the truth of the intention behind those schools. [Edited 7/22/21 6:20am]

The idea was to intergrate them fully into Canadian society. Make them the same as any other citizen. We can see now that's bad, especially the way it was done, but it wasn't done out of malice.

Even though the schools were run until the mid 90s, any deaths that occurred happened during the early 1900s from diseases that usually runs through overpopulated settings.

If you can't understand why people would be against subpar reporting on the past (this "mass grave" was discovered in an old cemetery where the wooden grave markers were lost to time & they don't actually know if it's students in the graves since they didn't dig them up) that resulted in 18 churches being burned down within a month's time, I don't know what to tell you.

.

I've asked multiple times, how Canada can make this right to the First Nations, and nobody has given me an answer. That's because no action taken can be great enough and they don't actually care about making it right for the victims. They only care about advancing their agenda and taking power for their allies.

.

See Ian's post on "oh you make this right by making sure it's never happen again...also we need to teach children CRT"

.

The schools were closed 25 years ago, the deaths occured over a 100 years ago. It's terrible it happened. It should never happen again. That doesn't mean that any pride people have in their country should be suppressed and they should eternally self-flagellate themselves for their ancestors mistakes.

.

[Edited 7/22/21 7:53am]

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Why the cowardous in bringing me into the conversation indirectly again?

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This is a deliberate lie. I never said that. When you quote someone with words they never said and arguments they never made you are just being dishonest.

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I said "So it is important to recognise this and prevent it happening again by being open and honest about it. Not allow people to hide behind but what about communism or by teaching the ills of the past, you are teaching CRT etc"

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I appreciate that it hard for people with little understanding of basic English, so I will break this down for you:

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1 Being open and honest about actual events is a good thing. It is a far right extremist/white supremacist lie that this is CRT. It is just facts.

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2 Preventing cultural and identity destruction by recognising that the process used here to do this was wrong is a good thing. Hiding behind the evil was not meant with malice, even though it was bad is no excuse. It was bad and it has damaged and disadvantaged people alive today.

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3 Seeking to ignore and hide that there was mental, physican and sexual abuse by people responsible for looking after children only enables this to happen again. Being on the side of abusers lest it impact on our pride is no source of pride - We are at our best when we answer the call to fight for the poor, weak and downtrodden, not when we want to hide our shame for what we did behind pride.

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4 When you hide behind the excuse that recognising the wrongs done in our name is giving into to communism, you have already lost. You are now justifying evil to proect your earthly politics.

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5 When you hide your history behind the far-right political stance that teaching history that does not glorify your nation is CRT, it is not anyone else saying you need to teach CRT, it is just your sin of false pride. Every nation and people have things that they can be immensely and justifiably proud of and things that shame them. We are at our best when we recognise both and don't lie to hide the bad bits.

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6 I never said you make this right by making sure it never happens again. I said you need to correct for this where you can and you need to make sure it never happens again. You cannot meld correcting for the past with making sure it does happen in the future. This is silliness. They are two separate things. You lied that I said one fixes the other - preventing this in the future by relying on recognising the past does not mean the past is fixed by the future - you have it arse-about.

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Reply #72 posted 07/22/21 1:58pm

jjhunsecker

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SantanaMaitreya said:

^Yeah, that's all very easy to say more than a hundred years later. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but when we study the past we should take off our 21st century glasses in order to see more clearly. The people who started these schools really did believe that killing the Indian was the best way to save the men (and women). Just like the Europeans who colonized Africa believed they were bringing civilization.


What people “believed “ in the past is almost irrelevant. It’s what they actually DID in the furtherance of those beliefs that truly matters. And if that includes coercion, stealing property, rape, violence, and murder, then we have every right, even an obligation, to question the validity of those beliefs today, and examine the havoc and destruction that they might have created
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #73 posted 07/22/21 2:00pm

jjhunsecker

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Strive said:



jjhunsecker said:


Beware of anti Semites and bigots preaching morality and religion




A stinking pile of horseshit
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #74 posted 07/22/21 2:34pm

IanRG

jjhunsecker said:

SantanaMaitreya said:
^Yeah, that's all very easy to say more than a hundred years later. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but when we study the past we should take off our 21st century glasses in order to see more clearly. The people who started these schools really did believe that killing the Indian was the best way to save the men (and women). Just like the Europeans who colonized Africa believed they were bringing civilization.
What people “believed “ in the past is almost irrelevant. It’s what they actually DID in the furtherance of those beliefs that truly matters. And if that includes coercion, stealing property, rape, violence, and murder, then we have every right, even an obligation, to question the validity of those beliefs today, and examine the havoc and destruction that they might have created

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Exactly - It does not take 21st century glasses to see that there was real malice in what was done in the past to children and communities by invading colonisers. The evil committed in the name of Kings' and God in South America was long before the assimilate with those of us who took your land or loose your children, language and culture programs.

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The 21st century problem is people that seek to hide evil behind the excuse that this may affect national pride or help people on the left, so they hide facts behind slogans that miscast understanding and teaching actual history as if it is "CRT".

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Reply #75 posted 07/22/21 3:17pm

2elijah

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SantanaMaitreya said:

^Yeah, that's all very easy to say more than a hundred years later. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but when we study the past we should take off our 21st century glasses in order to see more clearly. The people who started these schools really did believe that killing the Indian was the best way to save the men (and women). Just like the Europeans who colonized Africa believed they were bringing civilization.

That pretty much is my point. I don’t believe they had good intentions by forcing Native children into these schools and away from their parents. They were pretty much trying to erase Nationally ven culture.

On the other hand. the Europeans’ thought’ they were bringing civilization to Africa, because they refused to accept that Africans were already civilized within their own cultures. They (Europeans)just didn’t respect either groups’ cultures.
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Reply #76 posted 07/22/21 3:18pm

Strive

2elijah said:

Ok, this is going to be a long one…. Let’s look at how telling an entire group of people that they are not allowed to embrace their history, culture or language, in a land that they inhabited first, by foreigners who claim they wanted to ‘help them’. It was the European immigrants who were the foreigners, not the First Nations/Native Americans. So who were these foreigners who invaded a land that wasn’t theirs, given the right to tell the original inhabitants they had to conform to their way of life, speak their language and only embrace their culture? Let’s face it… it was not helping them.. it was destroying who they were and disrespecting their history/culture. Look at the damage the ‘so-called help’ did to many of them. The foreigners may have thought they were helping them, but at the same time, the intention of that help was to force them to submit to a culture that was not theirs, so that they would not be a threat to the European immigrants who stole their land, and to make them believe western culture was superior culture. The past has so many mistakes, that learning from those mistakes is to not allow it to happen again, by acknowledging those wrongs, and to hopefully be better humans beings than those who participated in acts of Genocide/human abuse, etc., like many in the past. That’s the purpose of ‘listening’ to the survivors account, and allowing the investigations to pursue, as yes, many of those children may have died from diseases such as TB, but let’s not just only use that, to steer away from the possibility that there has also been accusations of abuse to many of those children, that may have contributed to their cause of death. It’s really not up to you, me or any non-Native to accept which way to correct this. It’s really up to the descendants to question/express their opinion about their deceased relatives who passed, and may have suffered abuses, when they attended those schools, as well as, the living survivors, to meet with the Canadian and U.S. governments, to find a way to decide what’s the right way to handle it. All others can do is give their opinion. You don’t have to agree with what that community decides is the right way to deal with this. I also don’t think any community, would think violence is the answer in resolving these type issues, but unfortunately, out of anger some sought to use violence against Catholic Churches. That in and of itself, should not be an excuse, to overlook the main issue of the graves of Native children found, and questions about their death, possible abuses against some/many of the deceased children, and living survivors who either witnessed those abuses or were survivors of abuse, when attending those schools. It may be years later, these accounts of abuse are being exposed, but maybe because when survivors tried to tell their stories..… nobody really listened or cared. [Edited 7/22/21 12:56pm]

Santana touched on part of what I'm thinking but I'll go a little deeper into it.

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It's good to know the truth about the past. It's also good to look at why people are hurting today and if there's any restitution possible. (Granted just because somebody feels a certain feeling or blames their lot in life on some external thing that doesn't mean that it's valid, still we'll ignore that for now) But it's also good to know why people made wrong decisions so we don't reduce them to mustache twirling villians. What good is knowing the wrong committed if you don't know how that wrong was made and how to avoid making that same type of wrong in the future?
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Let's go back to when these schools were established and try to imagine us in their shoes. You're trying to build a nation. Within this nation is a downtrodden group - uneducated, unable to fit in society, living on the outskirts. Generation after generation passes and this group clings to their way of life that makes them social pariahs. So you say "we're going to intergrate them into our society so we can live together". That's noble enough. And the Catholic Church volunteers to house and educate these children for the state.

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We know now that it turned out horribly. For the reasons you mentioned and more. It isn't right for the state to do that to anybody. The Catholic Church's ways of teaching children were well-intended but overly harsh until recent time. That harshness may be viewed as abuse under modern definitions.

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Still, the Catholic Church always tries to grow and react but it also has to protect itself. You can't expect an insitution to stand for 2000 years without doing so. The reason why this stuff bothers me so much is because I'm a Catholic and I see the changes the church does. Where when I volunteer to lector (yes, believe it or not, I am a respected member of my community in real life) and they fingerprint me and they background check me because there's a chance that I can be around an underage alter server. Yet, the first thing I read about on any Catholic article in the comments is pedophile priests and how the church is evil and needs to be abolished. Why do people still react that way when changes have been made to protect the innocent and make sure that the wrongs of the past are corrected? Because these people don't care about the victims. It was never about the victims. It was always a bludgeon against the church because they're enemies of the church.

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Likewise with the story, it was never about the graves or whether there were actually victims from the schools in the ground. It was about canceling Canada Day and making people ashamed of their country and background. It was a way to seize power. It was a way for communists to (in their mind) justly tear down statues and burn down churches and erase the presense of Canadian history/culture. Things they wanted to do anyways but now feel embolded to carry out.

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Which, again, is ironic considering what they're so angry about but look at jjhunsecker saying "What people believed in the past is almost irrelevant." They're not mad that an injustice happened in the past, they're mad they weren't able to carry it out for their side.
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And also, how far back in history do we want to go? Could we talk about the Catholic missionaires and First Nation converts that were slaughtered by fellow First Nation tribes in the past? That happened a number of times while Catholicism spread through Canada before gaining a foothold. It's talked about in the book I suggested on the first page of this thread.
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Would you think it's right to bring up if I was also trying to use that fact to justify the Catholics' actions with their schools? Or if I was saying "well, the First Nation tribes did it to the Catholic and so it's no big deal if the Catholic inadvertedly did it to them. The chickens came home to roost for the First Nations"? I really hope you wouldn't view that as valid. Because I certainly don't.
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And I really hope everybody will able to realize the danger of the fire they're playing with before it causes more death and destruction but this is humanity. We never learn from our mistakes because it's much easier to view the world in black and white. "My actions are always just and right. I'm not like the people in the past because I'm on the right side of history this time"

.

[Edited 7/22/21 15:30pm]

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Reply #77 posted 07/22/21 3:24pm

2elijah

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

SantanaMaitreya said:

^Yeah, that's all very easy to say more than a hundred years later. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but when we study the past we should take off our 21st century glasses in order to see more clearly. The people who started these schools really did believe that killing the Indian was the best way to save the men (and women). Just like the Europeans who colonized Africa believed they were bringing civilization.


What people “believed “ in the past is almost irrelevant. It’s what they actually DID in the furtherance of those beliefs that truly matters. And if that includes coercion, stealing property, rape, violence, and murder, then we have every right, even an obligation, to question the validity of those beliefs today, and examine the havoc and destruction that they might have created

Exactly, because if that happened today, it would be questioned and investigated.
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Reply #78 posted 07/22/21 3:35pm

Strive

2elijah said:

Exactly, because if that happened today, it would be questioned and investigated.


Exactly. Like burning down 18 christian churches within a month's time.
.
That is also international news and the Canadian government is vowing to investigate what is going on. There's a committee being put together. The media is saying that they're going to review their inflamatory rhetoric and see how they got a story so wrong. Journalists are being fired. Retraction articles printed.

.

Oh wait, none of that happened. In fact, you probably never would have heard of it if others didn't put the pieces together and post links.

.

Oh well. Maybe next turn on the wheel we'll get it right. lol

.

[Edited 7/22/21 15:47pm]

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Reply #79 posted 07/22/21 4:23pm

SantanaMaitrey
a

2elijah said:

SantanaMaitreya said:

^Yeah, that's all very easy to say more than a hundred years later. And I'm not disagreeing with you, but when we study the past we should take off our 21st century glasses in order to see more clearly. The people who started these schools really did believe that killing the Indian was the best way to save the men (and women). Just like the Europeans who colonized Africa believed they were bringing civilization.

That pretty much is my point. I don’t believe they had good intentions by forcing Native children into these schools and away from their parents. They were pretty much trying to erase Nationally ven culture.

On the other hand. the Europeans’ thought’ they were bringing civilization to Africa, because they refused to accept that Africans were already civilized within their own cultures. They (Europeans)just didn’t respect either groups’ cultures.

That pretty much is my point. "I don't believe they had good intentions". It's not about what you believe! Studying history should be about gaining knowledge and finding out that people from the past had different beliefs from ours. What does that say about my own beliefs?
But reading your posts, it seems like you're doing the exact opposite: history is only there to prove that you were right all along.
If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger tool than I am.
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Reply #80 posted 07/22/21 7:41pm

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:



2elijah said:


Ok, this is going to be a long one…. Let’s look at how telling an entire group of people that they are not allowed to embrace their history, culture or language, in a land that they inhabited first, by foreigners who claim they wanted to ‘help them’. It was the European immigrants who were the foreigners, not the First Nations/Native Americans. So who were these foreigners who invaded a land that wasn’t theirs, given the right to tell the original inhabitants they had to conform to their way of life, speak their language and only embrace their culture? Let’s face it… it was not helping them.. it was destroying who they were and disrespecting their history/culture. Look at the damage the ‘so-called help’ did to many of them. The foreigners may have thought they were helping them, but at the same time, the intention of that help was to force them to submit to a culture that was not theirs, so that they would not be a threat to the European immigrants who stole their land, and to make them believe western culture was superior culture. The past has so many mistakes, that learning from those mistakes is to not allow it to happen again, by acknowledging those wrongs, and to hopefully be better humans beings than those who participated in acts of Genocide/human abuse, etc., like many in the past. That’s the purpose of ‘listening’ to the survivors account, and allowing the investigations to pursue, as yes, many of those children may have died from diseases such as TB, but let’s not just only use that, to steer away from the possibility that there has also been accusations of abuse to many of those children, that may have contributed to their cause of death. It’s really not up to you, me or any non-Native to accept which way to correct this. It’s really up to the descendants to question/express their opinion about their deceased relatives who passed, and may have suffered abuses, when they attended those schools, as well as, the living survivors, to meet with the Canadian and U.S. governments, to find a way to decide what’s the right way to handle it. All others can do is give their opinion. You don’t have to agree with what that community decides is the right way to deal with this. I also don’t think any community, would think violence is the answer in resolving these type issues, but unfortunately, out of anger some sought to use violence against Catholic Churches. That in and of itself, should not be an excuse, to overlook the main issue of the graves of Native children found, and questions about their death, possible abuses against some/many of the deceased children, and living survivors who either witnessed those abuses or were survivors of abuse, when attending those schools. It may be years later, these accounts of abuse are being exposed, but maybe because when survivors tried to tell their stories..… nobody really listened or cared. [Edited 7/22/21 12:56pm]


Santana touched on part of what I'm thinking but I'll go a little deeper into it.


.


It's good to know the truth about the past. It's also good to look at why people are hurting today and if there's any restitution possible. (Granted just because somebody feels a certain feeling or blames their lot in life on some external thing that doesn't mean that it's valid, still we'll ignore that for now) But it's also good to know why people made wrong decisions so we don't reduce them to mustache twirling villians. What good is knowing the wrong committed if you don't know how that wrong was made and how to avoid making that same type of wrong in the future?
.


Let's go back to when these schools were established and try to imagine us in their shoes. You're trying to build a nation. Within this nation is a downtrodden group - uneducated, unable to fit in society, living on the outskirts. Generation after generation passes and this group clings to their way of life that makes them social pariahs. So you say "we're going to intergrate them into our society so we can live together". That's noble enough. And the Catholic Church volunteers to house and educate these children for the state.


.


We know now that it turned out horribly. For the reasons you mentioned and more. It isn't right for the state to do that to anybody. The Catholic Church's ways of teaching children were well-intended but overly harsh until recent time. That harshness may be viewed as abuse under modern definitions.


.


Still, the Catholic Church always tries to grow and react but it also has to protect itself. You can't expect an insitution to stand for 2000 years without doing so. The reason why this stuff bothers me so much is because I'm a Catholic and I see the changes the church does. Where when I volunteer to lector (yes, believe it or not, I am a respected member of my community in real life) and they fingerprint me and they background check me because there's a chance that I can be around an underage alter server. Yet, the first thing I read about on any Catholic article in the comments is pedophile priests and how the church is evil and needs to be abolished. Why do people still react that way when changes have been made to protect the innocent and make sure that the wrongs of the past are corrected? Because these people don't care about the victims. It was never about the victims. It was always a bludgeon against the church because they're enemies of the church.


.
Likewise with the story, it was never about the graves or whether there were actually victims from the schools in the ground. It was about canceling Canada Day and making people ashamed of their country and background. It was a way to seize power. It was a way for communists to (in their mind) justly tear down statues and burn down churches and erase the presense of Canadian history/culture. Things they wanted to do anyways but now feel embolded to carry out.


.


Which, again, is ironic considering what they're so angry about but look at jjhunsecker saying "What people believed in the past is almost irrelevant." They're not mad that an injustice happened in the past, they're mad they weren't able to carry it out for their side.
.


And also, how far back in history do we want to go? Could we talk about the Catholic missionaires and First Nation converts that were slaughtered by fellow First Nation tribes in the past? That happened a number of times while Catholicism spread through Canada before gaining a foothold. It's talked about in the book I suggested on the first page of this thread.
.
Would you think it's right to bring up if I was also trying to use that fact to justify the Catholics' actions with their schools? Or if I was saying "well, the First Nation tribes did it to the Catholic and so it's no big deal if the Catholic inadvertedly did it to them. The chickens came home to roost for the First Nations"? I really hope you wouldn't view that as valid. Because I certainly don't.
.
And I really hope everybody will able to realize the danger of the fire they're playing with before it causes more death and destruction but this is humanity. We never learn from our mistakes because it's much easier to view the world in black and white. "My actions are always just and right. I'm not like the people in the past because I'm on the right side of history this time"


.


[Edited 7/22/21 15:30pm]


You’re making this about your feelings, because of your association with the Catholic Church. But it’s not about you, it’s about the First Nations right to question if any of those childrens’ deaths was due to abuse. Even in present day if are any abuses by members of the Church, it should be exposed.

Those burning down churches will eventually be found. No one is saying it is right to burn Churches down over what happened. It’s apparently being investigated. All anyone can do is wait to see how the First Nations and the Canadian government will handle the discovery of the childrens’ graves, and investigation of any possible abuse that may have led to some of those deaths.
[Edited 7/23/21 4:16am]
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Reply #81 posted 07/22/21 8:18pm

Strive

If you ever wonder why I rarely make serious long posts, there's your answer.

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Reply #82 posted 07/22/21 8:54pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

Strive said:



2elijah said:


Ok, this is going to be a long one…. Let’s look at how telling an entire group of people that they are not allowed to embrace their history, culture or language, in a land that they inhabited first, by foreigners who claim they wanted to ‘help them’. It was the European immigrants who were the foreigners, not the First Nations/Native Americans. So who were these foreigners who invaded a land that wasn’t theirs, given the right to tell the original inhabitants they had to conform to their way of life, speak their language and only embrace their culture? Let’s face it… it was not helping them.. it was destroying who they were and disrespecting their history/culture. Look at the damage the ‘so-called help’ did to many of them. The foreigners may have thought they were helping them, but at the same time, the intention of that help was to force them to submit to a culture that was not theirs, so that they would not be a threat to the European immigrants who stole their land, and to make them believe western culture was superior culture. The past has so many mistakes, that learning from those mistakes is to not allow it to happen again, by acknowledging those wrongs, and to hopefully be better humans beings than those who participated in acts of Genocide/human abuse, etc., like many in the past. That’s the purpose of ‘listening’ to the survivors account, and allowing the investigations to pursue, as yes, many of those children may have died from diseases such as TB, but let’s not just only use that, to steer away from the possibility that there has also been accusations of abuse to many of those children, that may have contributed to their cause of death. It’s really not up to you, me or any non-Native to accept which way to correct this. It’s really up to the descendants to question/express their opinion about their deceased relatives who passed, and may have suffered abuses, when they attended those schools, as well as, the living survivors, to meet with the Canadian and U.S. governments, to find a way to decide what’s the right way to handle it. All others can do is give their opinion. You don’t have to agree with what that community decides is the right way to deal with this. I also don’t think any community, would think violence is the answer in resolving these type issues, but unfortunately, out of anger some sought to use violence against Catholic Churches. That in and of itself, should not be an excuse, to overlook the main issue of the graves of Native children found, and questions about their death, possible abuses against some/many of the deceased children, and living survivors who either witnessed those abuses or were survivors of abuse, when attending those schools. It may be years later, these accounts of abuse are being exposed, but maybe because when survivors tried to tell their stories..… nobody really listened or cared. [Edited 7/22/21 12:56pm]


Santana touched on part of what I'm thinking but I'll go a little deeper into it.


.


It's good to know the truth about the past. It's also good to look at why people are hurting today and if there's any restitution possible. (Granted just because somebody feels a certain feeling or blames their lot in life on some external thing that doesn't mean that it's valid, still we'll ignore that for now) But it's also good to know why people made wrong decisions so we don't reduce them to mustache twirling villians. What good is knowing the wrong committed if you don't know how that wrong was made and how to avoid making that same type of wrong in the future?
.


Let's go back to when these schools were established and try to imagine us in their shoes. You're trying to build a nation. Within this nation is a downtrodden group - uneducated, unable to fit in society, living on the outskirts. Generation after generation passes and this group clings to their way of life that makes them social pariahs. So you say "we're going to intergrate them into our society so we can live together". That's noble enough. And the Catholic Church volunteers to house and educate these children for the state.


.


We know now that it turned out horribly. For the reasons you mentioned and more. It isn't right for the state to do that to anybody. The Catholic Church's ways of teaching children were well-intended but overly harsh until recent time. That harshness may be viewed as abuse under modern definitions.


.


Still, the Catholic Church always tries to grow and react but it also has to protect itself. You can't expect an insitution to stand for 2000 years without doing so. The reason why this stuff bothers me so much is because I'm a Catholic and I see the changes the church does. Where when I volunteer to lector (yes, believe it or not, I am a respected member of my community in real life) and they fingerprint me and they background check me because there's a chance that I can be around an underage alter server. Yet, the first thing I read about on any Catholic article in the comments is pedophile priests and how the church is evil and needs to be abolished. Why do people still react that way when changes have been made to protect the innocent and make sure that the wrongs of the past are corrected? Because these people don't care about the victims. It was never about the victims. It was always a bludgeon against the church because they're enemies of the church.


.
Likewise with the story, it was never about the graves or whether there were actually victims from the schools in the ground. It was about canceling Canada Day and making people ashamed of their country and background. It was a way to seize power. It was a way for communists to (in their mind) justly tear down statues and burn down churches and erase the presense of Canadian history/culture. Things they wanted to do anyways but now feel embolded to carry out.


.


Which, again, is ironic considering what they're so angry about but look at jjhunsecker saying "What people believed in the past is almost irrelevant." They're not mad that an injustice happened in the past, they're mad they weren't able to carry it out for their side.
.


And also, how far back in history do we want to go? Could we talk about the Catholic missionaires and First Nation converts that were slaughtered by fellow First Nation tribes in the past? That happened a number of times while Catholicism spread through Canada before gaining a foothold. It's talked about in the book I suggested on the first page of this thread.
.
Would you think it's right to bring up if I was also trying to use that fact to justify the Catholics' actions with their schools? Or if I was saying "well, the First Nation tribes did it to the Catholic and so it's no big deal if the Catholic inadvertedly did it to them. The chickens came home to roost for the First Nations"? I really hope you wouldn't view that as valid. Because I certainly don't.
.
And I really hope everybody will able to realize the danger of the fire they're playing with before it causes more death and destruction but this is humanity. We never learn from our mistakes because it's much easier to view the world in black and white. "My actions are always just and right. I'm not like the people in the past because I'm on the right side of history this time"


.


[Edited 7/22/21 15:30pm]



What you ASSUME I believe is a complete fabrication on your part
I does give us a good insight into your paranoia, and fears that so many are just “out to get you “

And it’s people like you IN the church that was one of the main reasons I left...
[Edited 7/22/21 21:09pm]
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #83 posted 07/22/21 9:01pm

jjhunsecker

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Strive said:

If you ever wonder why I rarely make serious long posts, there's your answer.



They’re LONG, that’s for sure
But I wouldn’t exactly call them SERIOUS...

You simply jump to conclusions about what other people “believe “, ironically since you complain that others do that very thing
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Reply #84 posted 07/22/21 9:06pm

jjhunsecker

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SantanaMaitreya said:

2elijah said:


That pretty much is my point. I don’t believe they had good intentions by forcing Native children into these schools and away from their parents. They were pretty much trying to erase Nationally ven culture.

On the other hand. the Europeans’ thought’ they were bringing civilization to Africa, because they refused to accept that Africans were already civilized within their own cultures. They (Europeans)just didn’t respect either groups’ cultures.

That pretty much is my point. "I don't believe they had good intentions". It's not about what you believe! Studying history should be about gaining knowledge and finding out that people from the past had different beliefs from ours. What does that say about my own beliefs?
But reading your posts, it seems like you're doing the exact opposite: history is only there to prove that you were right all along.


But what is wrong about attempting to discern the beliefs of others (past or present) based on their actions? Or is history just a dry recitation of “facts” ?
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Reply #85 posted 07/23/21 5:18am

2elijah

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SantanaMaitreya said:

2elijah said:


That pretty much is my point. I don’t believe they had good intentions by forcing Native children into these schools and away from their parents. They were pretty much trying to erase their culture.

On the other hand. the Europeans’ thought’ they were bringing civilization to Africa, because they refused to accept that Africans were already civilized within their own cultures. They (Europeans)just didn’t respect either groups’ cultures.

That pretty much is my point. "I don't believe they had good intentions". It's not about what you believe! Studying history should be about gaining knowledge and finding out that people from the past had different beliefs from ours. What does that say about my own beliefs?
But reading your posts, it seems like you're doing the exact opposite: history is only there to prove that you were right all along.



Lmao….. if you want to gain knowledge of the past, then you also have to have an open mind, and not sugarcoat when a wrong was committed, and not excusing those wrongs by saying ‘ people in the past had different beliefs’ than ours. That’s basically excusing them for wrongs committed. I’m not buying that bs. Their intentions were to destroy the history, culture of First Nations people, while robbing them of their land. No sugarcoating. Certainly no denying it is an ugly history.
[Edited 7/23/21 5:31am]
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Reply #86 posted 07/23/21 5:20am

2elijah

avatar

Strive said:

If you ever wonder why I rarely make serious long posts, there's your answer.


But you just made one on this thread. So what’s the problem? lol
I guess if you can’t get some to agree with all your points, then it’s a problem. Like I said, your focus seems to be more on accusing those burning down the churches, as having some agenda ‘to take power’ and that their interests is not about the graves of the First Nation children, who attended those schools.
[Edited 7/23/21 5:37am]
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Reply #87 posted 07/23/21 5:42am

2elijah

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Posting this article that includes some elder survivors’ accounts of their experiences in those schools.


https://www.wbur.org/here...us-schools

Indigenous Kids' Bodies Recovered — Not Discovered, Says Canada's Assembly Of First Nations Chief


“It’s been a painful month for Canada's Indigenous communities.

RoseAnne Archibald was recently elected Canada's first female national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, leading more than 900,000 Indigenous people in 634 First Nations Communities.

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Just days later, another 160 unmarked graves were uncovered at a former Indigenous residential school site on a Southern Gulf Island off of British Columbia. This discovery adds to the more than 1,000 graves believed to contain remains of children forcibly taken from their families and housed in the so-called schools from the late 1880s to the 1990s.

Survivors describe horrific mental and physical abuse at the sites, including the prohibition of any Indigenous cultural practices such as the use of their own languages.

“I don’t like to call them schools — they were institutions of assimilation and genocide,” Archibald says. “And our survivors said that for the longest time they were told stories of the deaths and murders that happened in these schools.”


The investigation and location of the mass graves were conducted with the use of ground penetrating radar technology.

Less than a week ago, members of the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nations held a day of testimony about the findings at the Kamloops Residential School in British Columbia where the remains of 215 children were discovered in late May.

“It was extraordinarily emotional and heartbreaking,” Archibald says. “And as I was sitting in the room, I was watching other people and many of them were triggered into their old trauma.”

[color=blue]Archibald describes the powerful testimonies by elders who were only 5 or 6-years-old when they were taken to the schools, eliciting tears from fellow survivors in the audience. Many survivors still suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, she says.

“That’s where the majority of Canadians have been deeply affected by this,” Archibald says, “because they see their own children and they understand that now, No. 1, that genocide did happen in Canada and that our children were targets of that.”[color=blue]

[Edited 7/23/21 5:46am]
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Reply #88 posted 07/23/21 5:45am

Strive

2elijah said:

Strive said:

If you ever wonder why I rarely make serious long posts, there's your answer.

But you just made one on this thread. So what’s the problem? lol I guess if you can’t get some to agree with all your points, then it’s a problem. Like I said, your focus seems to be more on accusing those burning down the churches, as having some agenda ‘to take power’ and that their interests is not about the discovery of the Native childrens’ graves. [Edited 7/23/21 5:24am]

Because out of all the thoughts and ideas I raised, you boiled it down to.

1) "You're Catholic. Therefore you're too emotional about what's going on and your feelings don't matter" Even though churches are being burned down today. Not 30 years ago or 100 years ago. This is happening today. From June to July, 18 Christian (in some cases, not even Catholic) churches were burned due to the irresponsible and inaccurate reporting by the media.

2) "First Nations members have the right to question whether any of these childrens' death is due to abuse" Which is...they don't even know if it's children from the school in the 182 unmarked graves. And they aren't going to know because, as far as I know, they aren't going to disturb the graves. Let alone CSI do autopsies to try to figure out how they died 100 years ago.

So the problem is, it was a big waste of time writing all of that because I should have just been spamming https://www.steugene.ca/e...ed-graves/ the entire time instead of thinking you are a person that can read and comprehend and maybe come at me from a different, more interesting, angle.

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Reply #89 posted 07/23/21 5:58am

Strive

2elijah said:

Posting this article that includes some elder survivors’ accounts of their experiences in those schools. https://www.wbur.org/here...us-schools

OMG genocide. Physical and mental abuse. Let's read these horrible acts.

.

“We tried to mention over, and over, and over, ‘there are many children missing,’ ” she told the audience. “Many of our children tried to cross the river to swim across, many were lost in the water, many of our children who ran away during the winter froze to death on their way home.”

.

So kids running away and dying is the wilderness is the fault of the schools.

.

“One of the worst stories I heard was a survivor saying that babies were put into incinerators in the schools,” she says. “These are crimes against humanity and crimes against children.”

.

lol Babies into incinerators. Next we're going to be hearing about milking machines that sucked the life out of boys and nuns dropping anvils on First Nations kids like they're villians out of Looney Toons cartoon.

[Edited 7/23/21 5:59am]

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