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Thread started 05/16/21 12:04pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Gaza vs Israel continues.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/live/israel-palestine-sheikh-jarrah-jerusalem-update

Gangs of Jews lynching arabs. Businesses being destroyed by gangs of Jews. Gaza being destroyed, including media outlets, huge war crimes. Woman, children slaughtered.

Human Rights Watch had amazing critique. B'tselem, the leading Israeli human rights group says the word they have never used before: Jewish supremacy. Sadly, Israel is now a country of hateful racists. Odd how our race clique have been silent.

Kudos to the squad for going hard on this issue, especially AOC. Even Ayanna Pressley has stepped up as well as Cori Bush. Biden has been awful, siding only with the killers.

And, yes, Hamas has the right to fight occupation.

** TITLED EDITED by Of4$ **

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #1 posted 05/16/21 12:24pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

And yet despite all that, Palestinians have more rights living in Israel than they do in either Saudi Arabia or Iran.


If you're a historian, you'll know how all this started and who squandered the grants bestowed on them on weapons and corruption all those years ago.

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Reply #2 posted 05/16/21 1:14pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Silly, silly.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #3 posted 05/16/21 2:32pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

Has it ever occurred to you (and many others judging by social media) that if there was no such group as Hamas then Israel almost certainly wouldn't have bulldozed homes in the Palestinian territories. You can perhaps reasonably argue, it is a pretext for occupying neighboring land, that Israel has no right to retaliate. Even so, no terrorist movement, and then Israel has no grounds on which to violently retaliate or occupy other's land. And I'm not saying two wrongs make a right. But if you look elsewhere in the world...

This situation happens in many other countries, whereby a guerilla force (not a peaceful protest or revolutionary movement) tries to mount an offensive against the state, often in the hope or expectation that they can effect a revolution through force. The state/ruling government then have 3 choices.

Either they do nothing and just hope the violent uprisers burn themselves out, get bored or view their actions as temporary, mission accomplished. Or they send in the state military to target homes, specifically identifed as inhabited by guerilla force members and try and take them out without hurting anyone else, but at great cost to their own lives. Or third, they bomb from the air in an attempt to kill Hamas members but at same time spare everybody else. Which is clearly impossible because bombing causes widespread destruction. The problem with doing nothing is that Hamas won't stop at small scale incursions. It's their modus operandi to wipe Israel off the map.

Essentially, the problem is that terrorist elements have wanted Israel destroyed since the time the state of Israel was declared. The PLO (the original palestinian terrorist organization) long predates Hamas. Don't forget how many countries declared war on Israel in 1948: a lot. You could say, they were rather quick to judgement. This was just 3 years after the end of WWII and the Jewish Holocaust. Talk about lack of empathy?! And there was plenty of desert in that part of the Middle East back in 1948. Always was, despite many times of being invaded over the centuries. Plenty of space for both provinces to live side by side. Quick history lesson. Israel said yes to peaceful coexistence. Palestine, supported by near neighbours said no. And there was no oppression going on at this time. For sure, there's definitely something not right in that part of the world. And it has as much to do with religion as politics. I really believe if you take religion out of politics then you have peace in that part of the world.

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Reply #4 posted 05/16/21 2:55pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

Don't get confused by word 'pretext' freaky. Doesn't mean what you think it means. You have to read shit sometimes, ya know wink



Reasons for Jews and Arabs' peaceful coexistence...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2000/10/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry


A Painting of a Jewish man from the Ottoman Empire, 1779.


Ah... how sweet! touched

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Reply #5 posted 05/16/21 3:37pm

IanRG

fortuneandserendipity said:

Has it ever occurred to you (and many others judging by social media) that if there was no such group as Hamas then Israel almost certainly wouldn't have bulldozed homes in the Palestinian territories. You can perhaps reasonably argue, it is a pretext for occupying neighboring land, that Israel has no right to retaliate. Even so, no terrorist movement, and then Israel has no grounds on which to violently retaliate or occupy other's land. And I'm not saying two wrongs make a right. But if you look elsewhere in the world...

This situation happens in many other countries, whereby a guerilla force (not a peaceful protest or revolutionary movement) tries to mount an offensive against the state, often in the hope or expectation that they can effect a revolution through force. The state/ruling government then have 3 choices.

Either they do nothing and just hope the violent uprisers burn themselves out, get bored or view their actions as temporary, mission accomplished. Or they send in the state military to target homes, specifically identifed as inhabited by guerilla force members and try and take them out without hurting anyone else, but at great cost to their own lives. Or third, they bomb from the air in an attempt to kill Hamas members but at same time spare everybody else. Which is clearly impossible because bombing causes widespread destruction. The problem with doing nothing is that Hamas won't stop at small scale incursions. It's their modus operandi to wipe Israel off the map.

Essentially, the problem is that terrorist elements have wanted Israel destroyed since the time the state of Israel was declared. The PLO (the original palestinian terrorist organization) long predates Hamas. Don't forget how many countries declared war on Israel in 1948: a lot. You could say, they were rather quick to judgement. This was just 3 years after the end of WWII and the Jewish Holocaust. Talk about lack of empathy?! And there was plenty of desert in that part of the Middle East back in 1948. Always was, despite many times of being invaded over the centuries. Plenty of space for both provinces to live side by side. Quick history lesson. Israel said yes to peaceful coexistence. Palestine, supported by near neighbours said no. And there was no oppression going on at this time. For sure, there's definitely something not right in that part of the world. And it has as much to do with religion as politics. I really believe if you take religion out of politics then you have peace in that part of the world.

.

Essentially, the problem is that there was an influx of European Jews following WW11 that used terrorist and paramilitary forces to seize land from a place that was Muslim, Jewish and Christian to be a Jewish State. Since then both sides have engaged in a series of wars and intransient negotiations that has seen horrendous acts against each other.

.

As currently the Israelis have the upper hand through US etc support and now with the Middle East poltics shifting to focus on the Saudi allies (including Israel) vs the Iran allies, the plight of the Palestine people, especially in Gaza has become significantly worse.

.

Israel is not the poor put upon victims of terrorism. This latest flare up was started by Israeli against people in Gaza and they are using the responces against this (ie the rocket attacks) to justify even more violence.

[Edited 5/16/21 15:51pm]

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Reply #6 posted 05/16/21 3:47pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Hamas can legally use force. They are a legitimate guerrilla group resisting terror. To be fair all Palestinians are being targeted. There is no Hamas in Jerusalem where this started.

Occupiers have no excuses.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #7 posted 05/18/21 5:50pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

IanRG said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Has it ever occurred to you (and many others judging by social media) that if there was no such group as Hamas then Israel almost certainly wouldn't have bulldozed homes in the Palestinian territories. You can perhaps reasonably argue, it is a pretext for occupying neighboring land, that Israel has no right to retaliate. Even so, no terrorist movement, and then Israel has no grounds on which to violently retaliate or occupy other's land. And I'm not saying two wrongs make a right. But if you look elsewhere in the world...

This situation happens in many other countries, whereby a guerilla force (not a peaceful protest or revolutionary movement) tries to mount an offensive against the state, often in the hope or expectation that they can effect a revolution through force. The state/ruling government then have 3 choices.

Either they do nothing and just hope the violent uprisers burn themselves out, get bored or view their actions as temporary, mission accomplished. Or they send in the state military to target homes, specifically identifed as inhabited by guerilla force members and try and take them out without hurting anyone else, but at great cost to their own lives. Or third, they bomb from the air in an attempt to kill Hamas members but at same time spare everybody else. Which is clearly impossible because bombing causes widespread destruction. The problem with doing nothing is that Hamas won't stop at small scale incursions. It's their modus operandi to wipe Israel off the map.

Essentially, the problem is that terrorist elements have wanted Israel destroyed since the time the state of Israel was declared. The PLO (the original palestinian terrorist organization) long predates Hamas. Don't forget how many countries declared war on Israel in 1948: a lot. You could say, they were rather quick to judgement. This was just 3 years after the end of WWII and the Jewish Holocaust. Talk about lack of empathy?! And there was plenty of desert in that part of the Middle East back in 1948. Always was, despite many times of being invaded over the centuries. Plenty of space for both provinces to live side by side. Quick history lesson. Israel said yes to peaceful coexistence. Palestine, supported by near neighbours said no. And there was no oppression going on at this time. For sure, there's definitely something not right in that part of the world. And it has as much to do with religion as politics. I really believe if you take religion out of politics then you have peace in that part of the world.

.

Essentially, the problem is that there was an influx of European Jews following WW11 that used terrorist and paramilitary forces to seize land from a place that was Muslim, Jewish and Christian to be a Jewish State. Since then both sides have engaged in a series of wars and intransient negotiations that has seen horrendous acts against each other.

.

As currently the Israelis have the upper hand through US etc support and now with the Middle East poltics shifting to focus on the Saudi allies (including Israel) vs the Iran allies, the plight of the Palestine people, especially in Gaza has become significantly worse.

.

Israel is not the poor put upon victims of terrorism. This latest flare up was started by Israeli against people in Gaza and they are using the responces against this (ie the rocket attacks) to justify even more violence.

[Edited 5/16/21 15:51pm]


Well, Lehi and Irgun (both anti-British and anti-arab) were zionist terrorist paramilitary groups, both formally disbanded by 1948.
And let's not pretend the Arabs were peace loving people before 1948 either. Jerusalem has been invaded many times over the centuries, alternately, by Christians and Muslims.
Further, I would argue that by kinship, that area of the world is historically more Jewish than Arab. The Arabs were the ones that migrated to Israel, and in increasing numbers over time. While Jews originally inhabited the land.
More pertinently, there has been considerable Arab migration to Israel since the late 19th century.
Going much further back, the Arabs originally came from Saudi Arabia, to the south of Israel, and subsequently migrated to the Levant, more specifically Syria, to Israel's north.
Here are the links. Enjoy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/..._the_Arabs

https://www.jpost.com/blo...ine-402785

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Reply #8 posted 05/19/21 2:07am

IanRG

fortuneandserendipity said:

IanRG said:

.

Essentially, the problem is that there was an influx of European Jews following WW11 that used terrorist and paramilitary forces to seize land from a place that was Muslim, Jewish and Christian to be a Jewish State. Since then both sides have engaged in a series of wars and intransient negotiations that has seen horrendous acts against each other.

.

As currently the Israelis have the upper hand through US etc support and now with the Middle East poltics shifting to focus on the Saudi allies (including Israel) vs the Iran allies, the plight of the Palestine people, especially in Gaza has become significantly worse.

.

Israel is not the poor put upon victims of terrorism. This latest flare up was started by Israeli against people in Gaza and they are using the responces against this (ie the rocket attacks) to justify even more violence.

[Edited 5/16/21 15:51pm]


Well, Lehi and Irgun (both anti-British and anti-arab) were zionist terrorist paramilitary groups, both formally disbanded by 1948.
And let's not pretend the Arabs were peace loving people before 1948 either. Jerusalem has been invaded many times over the centuries, alternately, by Christians and Muslims.
Further, I would argue that by kinship, that area of the world is historically more Jewish than Arab. The Arabs were the ones that migrated to Israel, and in increasing numbers over time. While Jews originally inhabited the land.
More pertinently, there has been considerable Arab migration to Israel since the late 19th century.
Going much further back, the Arabs originally came from Saudi Arabia, to the south of Israel, and subsequently migrated to the Levant, more specifically Syria, to Israel's north.
Here are the links. Enjoy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/..._the_Arabs

https://www.jpost.com/blo...ine-402785

.

So you know that the only reason that this is occuring is as a result of the terrorist paramilitary groups seeking to make the Israeli state. The terrorists in Lehi were inducted into the Israeli defence force in 1948 and there is a military decoration called the Lehi Ribbon for the terrorist activities in the struggle to create the Israeli State.

.

Knowing Israel, as it exists today, was formed by terrorist and paramilitary action, you seek to condemn thoase opposed to the ongoing moves by the Israelis to displace, isolate and kill people.

.

There is no perfect side but what you have is one side with a highly sophisticated military and another where Gaza has been forcibly isolated in ways that can only be considered as war crimes and human rights violations.

.

There is no way to "enjoy" any of this.

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Reply #9 posted 05/19/21 5:45am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

IanRG said:

fortuneandserendipity said:


Well, Lehi and Irgun (both anti-British and anti-arab) were zionist terrorist paramilitary groups, both formally disbanded by 1948.
And let's not pretend the Arabs were peace loving people before 1948 either. Jerusalem has been invaded many times over the centuries, alternately, by Christians and Muslims.
Further, I would argue that by kinship, that area of the world is historically more Jewish than Arab. The Arabs were the ones that migrated to Israel, and in increasing numbers over time. While Jews originally inhabited the land.
More pertinently, there has been considerable Arab migration to Israel since the late 19th century.
Going much further back, the Arabs originally came from Saudi Arabia, to the south of Israel, and subsequently migrated to the Levant, more specifically Syria, to Israel's north.
Here are the links. Enjoy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/..._the_Arabs

https://www.jpost.com/blo...ine-402785

.

So you know that the only reason that this is occuring is as a result of the terrorist paramilitary groups seeking to make the Israeli state. The terrorists in Lehi were inducted into the Israeli defence force in 1948 and there is a military decoration called the Lehi Ribbon for the terrorist activities in the struggle to create the Israeli State.

.

Knowing Israel, as it exists today, was formed by terrorist and paramilitary action, you seek to condemn thoase opposed to the ongoing moves by the Israelis to displace, isolate and kill people.

.

There is no perfect side but what you have is one side with a highly sophisticated military and another where Gaza has been forcibly isolated in ways that can only be considered as war crimes and human rights violations.

.

There is no way to "enjoy" any of this.


No. You're conveniently rewriting history in an attempt to portray the Jews as the bad actors. In actuality, the Palestinians have commmitted far more resources and means to terrorist attacks, and this occurred before 1948, as well as after.

Yes, Jews have been pushed out of Israel many times, hence the very long, drawn out diaspora. To reiterate, this has been a centuries old problem. One which even the Romans predating the Christians and Muslims had a go at, driving the Israelis to Babylonia and Persia.

But the real relevance here is what happened in the early 20th century, because that is chiefly why the bad situation today is playing out as it so often does. To draw a timeline through the 20th century, those aforementioned Jewish military groups (now disbanded) came about in reponse to bad actors pushing back against Jewish settlers. Specifically, Arab groups that emerged following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Empire collapsed in the aftermath of WW1, yet was on its knees before WW1. Like any other empire in history, it expanded to a size it couldn't control, nor to which economic or social order could be sustained. Note: you can't blame the Jews for this, as they were largely subservient. And yes, all empires are inherently imperialist, religious or otherwise. With the collapse of any empire obviously comes a degree of anarchy because revolutions always occur in a power vacuum. And as demonstrated in recent history with al-qaeda and islamic state, such paramilitary groups gain strongest foothold when states are at their weakest.

And so it was this collapse that led to the formation of the Palestine Mandate, under which Palestinians had a degree of self-sufficiency.
I
n 1930 emerged an anti-zionist, anti-British terrorist group called the Black Hand, in indignation at fellow Jewish settlers, who were not ruling over any state, still less presiding over any Palestinian people. And yet this group instigated many Arab revolts against Jews. As is recounted on Wikipedia...


"The attacks [in the 1930s] on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: firstly, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah, which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish land purchase and immigration."


I don't enjoy any of this btw. Merely a momentary facetious barb at people lacking knowledge of real life events because they don't have immediate relevance to the present situation.

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Reply #10 posted 05/19/21 5:45am

fortuneandsere
ndipity




[Edited 5/19/21 6:16am]

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Reply #11 posted 05/19/21 2:16pm

IanRG

fortuneandserendipity said:

IanRG said:

.

So you know that the only reason that this is occuring is as a result of the terrorist paramilitary groups seeking to make the Israeli state. The terrorists in Lehi were inducted into the Israeli defence force in 1948 and there is a military decoration called the Lehi Ribbon for the terrorist activities in the struggle to create the Israeli State.

.

Knowing Israel, as it exists today, was formed by terrorist and paramilitary action, you seek to condemn thoase opposed to the ongoing moves by the Israelis to displace, isolate and kill people.

.

There is no perfect side but what you have is one side with a highly sophisticated military and another where Gaza has been forcibly isolated in ways that can only be considered as war crimes and human rights violations.

.

There is no way to "enjoy" any of this.


No. You're conveniently rewriting history in an attempt to portray the Jews as the bad actors. In actuality, the Palestinians have commmitted far more resources and means to terrorist attacks, and this occurred before 1948, as well as after.

Yes, Jews have been pushed out of Israel many times, hence the very long, drawn out diaspora. To reiterate, this has been a centuries old problem. One which even the Romans predating the Christians and Muslims had a go at, driving the Israelis to Babylonia and Persia.

But the real relevance here is what happened in the early 20th century, because that is chiefly why the bad situation today is playing out as it so often does. To draw a timeline through the 20th century, those aforementioned Jewish military groups (now disbanded) came about in reponse to bad actors pushing back against Jewish settlers. Specifically, Arab groups that emerged following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Empire collapsed in the aftermath of WW1, yet was on its knees before WW1. Like any other empire in history, it expanded to a size it couldn't control, nor to which economic or social order could be sustained. Note: you can't blame the Jews for this, as they were largely subservient. And yes, all empires are inherently imperialist, religious or otherwise. With the collapse of any empire obviously comes a degree of anarchy because revolutions always occur in a power vacuum. And as demonstrated in recent history with al-qaeda and islamic state, such paramilitary groups gain strongest foothold when states are at their weakest.

And so it was this collapse that led to the formation of the Palestine Mandate, under which Palestinians had a degree of self-sufficiency.
I
n 1930 emerged an anti-zionist, anti-British terrorist group called the Black Hand, in indignation at fellow Jewish settlers, who were not ruling over any state, still less presiding over any Palestinian people. And yet this group instigated many Arab revolts against Jews. As is recounted on Wikipedia...


"The attacks [in the 1930s] on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: firstly, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah, which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish land purchase and immigration."


I don't enjoy any of this btw. Merely a momentary facetious barb at people lacking knowledge of real life events because they don't have immediate relevance to the present situation.

.

I am not the one who is re-wrting history - You came into the thread to blame it all on terrorism by one side only. All I did was point out the terrorism on the otherside that is imediately relevant to the present situation. You knew about this terrorism and dismissed it by saying that these terrorist groups disbanded without being completely honest by saying that they were absorbed into the Israeli defense force and honoured by the country for their success.

.

I said both sides have done horrendous things to each other. You ignored that the trigger for the latest violence was the Israeli actions to displace more people and the horrendous effects of the long term blockade of Gaza.

.

As we are talking about real life events in 2021 and you agree that all this deflection to 1948 and previously does not have immedaite relevance to the present situation, then instead of being facetious, perhaps you need to reflect on this. The history of conflict is perpetuated by people who maintain a list of one sided grievances against the otherside, especially when both sides do it to each other. The Israelis are doing the war crimes and crimes against humanity by their blockade of Gaza today, the trigger was the Israeli actions in East Jerusalem this year.

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Reply #12 posted 05/19/21 4:49pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

IanRG said:

fortuneandserendipity said:


No. You're conveniently rewriting history in an attempt to portray the Jews as the bad actors. In actuality, the Palestinians have commmitted far more resources and means to terrorist attacks, and this occurred before 1948, as well as after.

Yes, Jews have been pushed out of Israel many times, hence the very long, drawn out diaspora. To reiterate, this has been a centuries old problem. One which even the Romans predating the Christians and Muslims had a go at, driving the Israelis to Babylonia and Persia.

But the real relevance here is what happened in the early 20th century, because that is chiefly why the bad situation today is playing out as it so often does. To draw a timeline through the 20th century, those aforementioned Jewish military groups (now disbanded) came about in reponse to bad actors pushing back against Jewish settlers. Specifically, Arab groups that emerged following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. The Empire collapsed in the aftermath of WW1, yet was on its knees before WW1. Like any other empire in history, it expanded to a size it couldn't control, nor to which economic or social order could be sustained. Note: you can't blame the Jews for this, as they were largely subservient. And yes, all empires are inherently imperialist, religious or otherwise. With the collapse of any empire obviously comes a degree of anarchy because revolutions always occur in a power vacuum. And as demonstrated in recent history with al-qaeda and islamic state, such paramilitary groups gain strongest foothold when states are at their weakest.

And so it was this collapse that led to the formation of the Palestine Mandate, under which Palestinians had a degree of self-sufficiency.
I
n 1930 emerged an anti-zionist, anti-British terrorist group called the Black Hand, in indignation at fellow Jewish settlers, who were not ruling over any state, still less presiding over any Palestinian people. And yet this group instigated many Arab revolts against Jews. As is recounted on Wikipedia...


"The attacks [in the 1930s] on the Jewish population by Arabs had three lasting effects: firstly, they led to the formation and development of Jewish underground militias, primarily the Haganah, which were to prove decisive in 1948. Secondly, it became clear that the two communities could not be reconciled, and the idea of partition was born. Thirdly, the British responded to Arab opposition with the White Paper of 1939, which severely restricted Jewish land purchase and immigration."


I don't enjoy any of this btw. Merely a momentary facetious barb at people lacking knowledge of real life events because they don't have immediate relevance to the present situation.

.

I am not the one who is re-wrting history - You came into the thread to blame it all on terrorism by one side only. All I did was point out the terrorism on the otherside that is imediately relevant to the present situation. You knew about this terrorism and dismissed it by saying that these terrorist groups disbanded without being completely honest by saying that they were absorbed into the Israeli defense force and honoured by the country for their success.

.

I said both sides have done horrendous things to each other. You ignored that the trigger for the latest violence was the Israeli actions to displace more people and the horrendous effects of the long term blockade of Gaza.

.

As we are talking about real life events in 2021 and you agree that all this deflection to 1948 and previously does not have immedaite relevance to the present situation, then instead of being facetious, perhaps you need to reflect on this. The history of conflict is perpetuated by people who maintain a list of one sided grievances against the otherside, especially when both sides do it to each other. The Israelis are doing the war crimes and crimes against humanity by their blockade of Gaza today, the trigger was the Israeli actions in East Jerusalem this year.


Yes I'm pointing out people's ignorance of history. If they knew the history of events in that part of the world then they wouldn't jump to conclusions about how evil 'Apartheid Israel' are, as some of them put it. And you're trying to conflate Israeli terrorist groups that broke up long long ago, and which only formed in response to deliberately calibrated Arab terrorism, with the government of the day over some medal name. And my point about the lacking immediate relevance is on them, not me. What's going on today has everything to do with what's gone on before.

But if you want to look at today's events as happening in a vacuum, ask yourself how many terrorist groups, at present, are motivated by the Jewish faith in relation to that geography of the earth? Zero. How many terrorist groups are there motivated by the Islamic faith in relation to that same geography. Ignoring the pan-global ones, two. Hamas and Hezbollah, both funded by Iran incidentally. Both want Israel wiped off the map. Both would not stop with their violence after a two state solution has been realized. It's in their manifestos, and both are prepared to use weapons in order to do it. I could also have mentioned in earlier response the fact that, going on years now, Hamas routinely try to burrow tunnels to cross into Israel illegitimately. They're not doing that because they want to be cuddly next door neighbors. And that by the way has nothing to do with your blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt in 2007, which was in response to - yup you guessed it - Hamas seizing control of the Gaza Strip. Or I could have mentioned that they've been shown on video throwing their children into the line of Israeli fire. Because ya know that happened too. Sub-human behavior.

And as an aside, if you so believe that Israeli terrorist organizations have such a fine history why are none of them blowing themselves up in German restaurants in revenge for the Holocaust?

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Reply #13 posted 05/19/21 8:16pm

IanRG

fortuneandserendipity said:

IanRG said:

.

I am not the one who is re-wrting history - You came into the thread to blame it all on terrorism by one side only. All I did was point out the terrorism on the otherside that is imediately relevant to the present situation. You knew about this terrorism and dismissed it by saying that these terrorist groups disbanded without being completely honest by saying that they were absorbed into the Israeli defense force and honoured by the country for their success.

.

I said both sides have done horrendous things to each other. You ignored that the trigger for the latest violence was the Israeli actions to displace more people and the horrendous effects of the long term blockade of Gaza.

.

As we are talking about real life events in 2021 and you agree that all this deflection to 1948 and previously does not have immedaite relevance to the present situation, then instead of being facetious, perhaps you need to reflect on this. The history of conflict is perpetuated by people who maintain a list of one sided grievances against the otherside, especially when both sides do it to each other. The Israelis are doing the war crimes and crimes against humanity by their blockade of Gaza today, the trigger was the Israeli actions in East Jerusalem this year.


Yes I'm pointing out people's ignorance of history. If they knew the history of events in that part of the world then they wouldn't jump to conclusions about how evil 'Apartheid Israel' are, as some of them put it. And you're trying to conflate Israeli terrorist groups that broke up long long ago, and which only formed in response to deliberately calibrated Arab terrorism, with the government of the day over some medal name. And my point about the lacking immediate relevance is on them, not me. What's going on today has everything to do with what's gone on before.

But if you want to look at today's events as happening in a vacuum, ask yourself how many terrorist groups, at present, are motivated by the Jewish faith in relation to that geography of the earth? Zero. How many terrorist groups are there motivated by the Islamic faith in relation to that same geography. Ignoring the pan-global ones, two. Hamas and Hezbollah, both funded by Iran incidentally. Both want Israel wiped off the map. Both would not stop with their violence after a two state solution has been realized. It's in their manifestos, and both are prepared to use weapons in order to do it. I could also have mentioned in earlier response the fact that, going on years now, Hamas routinely try to burrow tunnels to cross into Israel illegitimately. They're not doing that because they want to be cuddly next door neighbors. And that by the way has nothing to do with your blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt in 2007, which was in response to - yup you guessed it - Hamas seizing control of the Gaza Strip. Or I could have mentioned that they've been shown on video throwing their children into the line of Israeli fire. Because ya know that happened too. Sub-human behavior.

And as an <irrelevant and pointless> aside...

.

You are merely imagining a lack of understanding of history whilst demonstrating a one sided bias in your understanding. This was clearly demonstrsted by the treatment of defensive actions by one side as terrorism and dismissive way you admitted to terrorism in the set up of Ersatz Israel ignoring that these terrorist were absorbed into the Israeli defence forces and recognised as by the military and government as heroes. It is not the Israelis being thrown out of homes, fenced off behind walls, starved of food and medical supplies to the point that they need to something to stop from wiped out in Gaza and east Jerulsalem. It is a sick statement to blame the people being shot because so many of them are children and not blame the shooters. This is not two armies fighting each other, this is a superior force attacking whole communities pretending and lying that they are only attacking another military force.

.

It is not my blockade of Gaza. This is a field of war crimes and a humanitarian nightmare created by what became of Jewish terrorists. The difference is once the European Jews established their Jewish State by displacing Muslims and Christians in the area, they ceased be considered terrorists. The simple fact is, as I said, both sides have done horrendous things to each other but the Israelis have the upper hand, the superior weapons with the same resolve against the other side.

.

Blaming people for what they are doing in 2021 is not looking at what is happening in a vacuum. It is holding the people who initiated this latest flare-up responsible for their actions by not hiding behind "oh but they did this to us previously". Holding one side responsible for their actions is not excusing the other side for their historical actions, or indeed their response today. Both sides are responsible for horrendous actions (who said this a number of times before here?). Both sides need to work together to live together in a fair, just, equal and equitable way, just the same as any other groups of people in many places around the world.

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Reply #14 posted 05/20/21 11:53am

fortuneandsere
ndipity

IanReg said:

fortuneandserendipity said:


Yes I'm pointing out people's ignorance of history. If they knew the history of events in that part of the world then they wouldn't jump to conclusions about how evil 'Apartheid Israel' are, as some of them put it. And you're trying to conflate Israeli terrorist groups that broke up long long ago, and which only formed in response to deliberately calibrated Arab terrorism, with the government of the day over some medal name. And my point about the lacking immediate relevance is on them, not me. What's going on today has everything to do with what's gone on before.

But if you want to look at today's events as happening in a vacuum, ask yourself how many terrorist groups, at present, are motivated by the Jewish faith in relation to that geography of the earth? Zero. How many terrorist groups are there motivated by the Islamic faith in relation to that same geography. Ignoring the pan-global ones, two. Hamas and Hezbollah, both funded by Iran incidentally. Both want Israel wiped off the map. Both would not stop with their violence after a two state solution has been realized. It's in their manifestos, and both are prepared to use weapons in order to do it. I could also have mentioned in earlier response the fact that, going on years now, Hamas routinely try to burrow tunnels to cross into Israel illegitimately. They're not doing that because they want to be cuddly next door neighbors. And that by the way has nothing to do with your blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt in 2007, which was in response to - yup you guessed it - Hamas seizing control of the Gaza Strip. Or I could have mentioned that they've been shown on video throwing their children into the line of Israeli fire. Because ya know that happened too. Sub-human behavior.

And as an <irrelevant and pointless> aside... [yeah i suppose if you think suicide bombings aren't relevant]

.

You are merely imagining a lack of understanding of history whilst demonstrating a one sided bias in your understanding. This was clearly demonstrsted by the treatment of defensive actions by one side as terrorism and dismissive way you admitted to terrorism in the set up of Ersatz Israel ignoring that these terrorist were absorbed into the Israeli defence forces and recognised as by the military and government as heroes. It is not the Israelis being thrown out of homes, fenced off behind walls, starved of food and medical supplies to the point that they need to something to stop from wiped out in Gaza and east Jerulsalem. It is a sick statement to blame the people being shot because so many of them are children and not blame the shooters. This is not two armies fighting each other, this is a superior force attacking whole communities pretending and lying that they are only attacking another military force.

.

It is not my blockade of Gaza. This is a field of war crimes and a humanitarian nightmare created by what became of Jewish terrorists.
The difference is once the European Jews established their Jewish State by displacing Muslims and Christians in the area, [ABSOLUTE nonsense btw. In actual fact, they built new settlements in the desert]
they ceased be considered terrorists. The simple fact is, as I said, both sides have done horrendous things to each other but the Israelis have the upper hand, the superior weapons with the same resolve against the other side.

.

Blaming people for what they are doing in 2021 is not looking at what is happening in a vacuum. It is holding the people who initiated this latest flare-up responsible for their actions by not hiding behind "oh but they did this to us previously". Holding one side responsible for their actions is not excusing the other side for their historical actions, or indeed their response today. Both sides are responsible for horrendous actions (who said this a number of times before here?). Both sides need to work together to live together in a fair, just, equal and equitable way, just the same as any other groups of people in many places around the world.


There is no imagining anything on my part. I'm merely interested in facts and removing bias. But because you get your facts from social media it's blinding you to the reality of events. The Israeli paramilitaries pre 1948 were responding to Arab aggression. The Arabs weren't accommodating of their Israeli neighbors, and unleashed terrorist acts. Those Israeli groups then responded with terrorist acts of their own. This all happened before 1948. And about that newly designated State of Israel... https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-44124396


"In 1947, the UN voted for Palestine to be split into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem becoming an international city.

That plan was accepted by Jewish leaders but rejected by the Arab side and never implemented".


Where are the Jews supposed to go after the horrors of what happened in Europe? Why can't they be allowed to live in their original homeland, peacefully coexisting with Palestinians of a different religion and slightly different bloodline. And why, if a gang of countries then decide to coalesce in order to militarily overthrow the state of Israel, should Israel not be allowed to defend herself? Logic tells you any other country would. Ah but because it's Israel, and because they decide to lump in the name of a medal with some freedom fighting/slightly terrorist but only in response to others' terrorism/former guerilla force, they're forever stained by that immoral act.

No fan of Netanyahu but he was right when saying that Hamas were basically to Israel what Islamic State were to the world. And it's not just Hamas that have behaved like terrorist assholes in recent times. Here's another link based on facts. What was the Israeli provocation here? Can't see any... still looking. https://en.wikipedia.org/...n_conflict

.

[Edited 5/20/21 12:10pm]

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Reply #15 posted 05/20/21 1:46pm

Strive

fortuneandserendipity said:

And as an aside, if you so believe that Israeli terrorist organizations have such a fine history why are none of them blowing themselves up in German restaurants in revenge for the Holocaust?

Look up the Lavon Affair, Samson Option, USS Liberty and "dancing Israelis"

That's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Mossad, the world's largest terrorist organization smile

[Edited 5/20/21 13:59pm]

"When you deny people the option to not pick a side, you may not like the side they'll pick."
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Reply #16 posted 05/20/21 2:58pm

IanRG

fortuneandserendipity said:

IanReg said:

.

You are merely imagining a lack of understanding of history whilst demonstrating a one sided bias in your understanding. This was clearly demonstrsted by the treatment of defensive actions by one side as terrorism and dismissive way you admitted to terrorism in the set up of Ersatz Israel ignoring that these terrorist were absorbed into the Israeli defence forces and recognised as by the military and government as heroes. It is not the Israelis being thrown out of homes, fenced off behind walls, starved of food and medical supplies to the point that they need to something to stop from wiped out in Gaza and east Jerulsalem. It is a sick statement to blame the people being shot because so many of them are children and not blame the shooters. This is not two armies fighting each other, this is a superior force attacking whole communities pretending and lying that they are only attacking another military force.

.

It is not my blockade of Gaza. This is a field of war crimes and a humanitarian nightmare created by what became of Jewish terrorists.
The difference is once the European Jews established their Jewish State by displacing Muslims and Christians in the area, [ABSOLUTE nonsense btw. In actual fact, they built new settlements in the desert]
they ceased be considered terrorists. The simple fact is, as I said, both sides have done horrendous things to each other but the Israelis have the upper hand, the superior weapons with the same resolve against the other side.

.

Blaming people for what they are doing in 2021 is not looking at what is happening in a vacuum. It is holding the people who initiated this latest flare-up responsible for their actions by not hiding behind "oh but they did this to us previously". Holding one side responsible for their actions is not excusing the other side for their historical actions, or indeed their response today. Both sides are responsible for horrendous actions (who said this a number of times before here?). Both sides need to work together to live together in a fair, just, equal and equitable way, just the same as any other groups of people in many places around the world.


There is no imagining anything on my part. I'm merely interested in facts and removing bias. But because you get your facts from social media it's blinding you to the reality of events. The Israeli paramilitaries pre 1948 were responding to Arab aggression. The Arabs weren't accommodating of their Israeli neighbors, and unleashed terrorist acts. Those Israeli groups then responded with terrorist acts of their own. This all happened before 1948. And about that newly designated State of Israel... https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...t-44124396


"In 1947, the UN voted for Palestine to be split into separate Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem becoming an international city.

That plan was accepted by Jewish leaders but rejected by the Arab side and never implemented".


Where are the Jews supposed to go after the horrors of what happened in Europe? Why can't they be allowed to live in their original homeland, peacefully coexisting with Palestinians of a different religion and slightly different bloodline. And why, if a gang of countries then decide to coalesce in order to militarily overthrow the state of Israel, should Israel not be allowed to defend herself? Logic tells you any other country would. Ah but because it's Israel, and because they decide to lump in the name of a medal with some freedom fighting/slightly terrorist but only in response to others' terrorism/former guerilla force, they're forever stained by that immoral act.

No fan of Netanyahu but he was right when saying that Hamas were basically to Israel what Islamic State were to the world. And it's not just Hamas that have behaved like terrorist assholes in recent times. Here's another link based on facts. What was the Israeli provocation here? Can't see any... still looking. https://en.wikipedia.org/...n_conflict

.

[Edited 5/20/21 12:10pm]

.

Your bias leaves all the fault at the feet of anyone else but the Israelis.

.

Your lack of interest in the facts has been pointed out and you have failed to address it:

.

1 You blamed the other side for their terrorism without mentioning the Israeli terrorism that was used to create Ersatz Israel.

.

2 When the issue of Israeli terrorism was raised, you said oh but they disbanded hiding the fact that the terrorist were just absorbed into the Israeli defence force and hailed as military heroes.

.

3 You imagine that my sources are just social media whilst using wikipedia as your source. My sources are NOT social media and your's IS wikipedia.

.

If something goes wrong in the country I live in, should I be allowed to invade the place of my ancestors and force large parts of the country to be my religious state?

.

You need to look outside of wikipedia. The current flare up was as a result of Israeli actions in East Jerusalem in 2021. The European Jews did not just set up in the desert without ever forcing people out of areas. Everyone who engages in invasion, terrorism and war to secure territories where other people live is forever stained by their immoral acts. The stain on my country for what it did with its colonisation is also regularly referred to as an indelible stain. The resolution is how to forgive but not forget and move on together.

.

You are imagining a lack of understanding of history whilst demonstrating your lack of understanding of history. Both sides are responsible for horrendous actions and both need to stop it and work together without all this "Oh but you did X in 1948, 1967, in the 1930s, the 18 hundreds, a thousand years ago, 3 thousand years ago" they use on each other. The refusal to agree to a settlement solution is not just one sided. The Israelis have rejected and undermined international solutions or agreed solutions as much as the Muslim and Christian Palestinians.

[Edited 5/20/21 18:33pm]

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Reply #17 posted 05/21/21 1:27pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Note that the anti racism people are not in this thread, and this is a racism thread.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #18 posted 05/21/21 4:08pm

coldcoffeeandc
ocacola

avatar

They've agreed a ceasefire!
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Reply #19 posted 05/22/21 2:19pm

fortuneandsere
ndipity

Hamas only agree to ceasefires when they run out of rockets.


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Reply #20 posted 05/22/21 3:21pm

IanRG

fortuneandserendipity said:

Hamas only agree to ceasefires when they run out of rockets.


.

This is an assumption based on your bias.

.

Whereas Netanyahu openly and publicly stated that he would only agree to a ceasefire once his forces had achieved their objective. Remember this flare up was started by Israel. The Israeli objective is to reduce the Palestinian's ability to oppose future actions by the Israelis to cease property and to maintain the blockade of Gaza. Netanyahu couched this in terms of making it safe for the people of Israel but they were only attacked in response to what they did against the Palestinians. Netanyahu only agreed to a ceasefire after international pressure, notably two calls on successive days from Biden.

[Edited 5/22/21 16:40pm]

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Reply #21 posted 05/22/21 9:13pm

luv4u

Moderator

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Conflict in Israel and Palestine: Crash Course World History 223


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Reply #22 posted 05/23/21 4:54pm

2freaky4church
1

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Norman Finkelstein made a great point. If the rockets were so fearsome why was there so little damage to buildings in Israel?

An IDF pilot just admitted he bombed the AP tower out of spite.

The best book on the subject is by Tom Segev. Follow human rights group B'tselem.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #23 posted 05/23/21 5:12pm

2freaky4church
1

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Huge censorship of youtube videos and AP reporters fired because of pro Palestine views. Now we are seeing faked hate crimes. Awful.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #24 posted 05/25/21 10:00am

jaawwnn

avatar

History is what it is, fact is right now Israel hold all the cards, including the ones for water and power.

All I have to do is replace Israel with Britain, Hamas with IRA, and I can see how both simple and complex these things are at the same time. When you have a nuclear power, and a military armed to the teeth, lined up against a repressed minority who resort to terrorism in desperation... yeah it gets murderous.

You want peace then you need to negotiate a Good Friday Agreement and then try and hold it for, god, about six generations. Just my two cents, I see no way out of this without everyone working together. Blind support of Israel's apartheid state is the worse option to me but you can't ignore hundreds of years of antisemitism either. hmm.



[Edited 5/25/21 10:06am]

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #25 posted 05/25/21 12:21pm

Ace

fortuneandserendipity said:

And yet despite all that, Palestinians have more rights living in Israel than they do in either Saudi Arabia or Iran.


If you're a historian, you'll know how all this started and who squandered the grants bestowed on them on weapons and corruption all those years ago.


Exactly.

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Reply #26 posted 05/25/21 1:11pm

Ace

jaawwnn said:

...you have a nuclear power, and a military armed to the teeth, lined up against a repressed minority who resort to terrorism in desperation... yeah it gets murderous.


But, jaawwnn, the "repressed minority" you speak of is only "repressed" because they continue to threaten Israel.

If the Palestinians would jettison corrupt "leaders" like Hamas and Abbas, and make nice with their neighbors, there would be no more "repression" (including Egypt's blockade of Gaza - which is never mentioned).

And what, exactly, do they believe terrorism will accomplish? Do they really think it's going to change anything in their favor? The "desperation" you refer to is the result of Hamas, Abbas (and Arafat before him) pocketing aid and living like kings, while being perfectly happy to let their people suffer:

https://youtu.be/h0PGqJ3065Q

Blind support of Israel's apartheid state


Israel isn't an apartheid state.

Lebanon is an apartheid state. The 175,000 Palestinians in that country can't become citizens. And...

"Without citizenship, Palestinians in Lebanon do not have Lebanese identity cards, which also entitles the holder to health, education and other government services. To receive health, education and other social services, Palestinian refugees are obligated to live in the twelve refugee camps in Lebanon set up by UNRWA. According to Human Rights Watch, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon live in "appalling social and economic conditions." Non-citizen Palestinians are also legally barred from owning property and barred from entering a list of desirable occupations.[


"Employment requires a government-issued work permit, and, according to the New York Times, although "Lebanon hands out and renews hundreds of thousands of work permits every year to people from Africa, Asia and other Arab countries... until now, only a handful have been given" to Palestinians. They labor under legal restrictions that bar them from employment in at least 25 professions, "including law, medicine, and engineering," a system that relegates them to the black market for labor. And they are "still subject to a discriminatory law introduced in 2001 preventing them from registering property.

"In 2016, Lebanese authorities began constructing a concrete wall with watch towers around the Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp, the largest Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon. The wall has faced some criticism, being called "racist" by some and supposedly labeling residents as terrorists or islamists. As of May 2017, the wall construction was nearing completion.


"For travel abroad non-citizen Palestinian residents of Lebanon can obtain travel documents that serve in place of passports. Travellers who hold only a Palestinian passport are refused entry to Lebanon."

You want peace then you need to negotiate a Good Friday Agreement and then try and hold it for, god, about six generations. Just my two cents, I see no way out of this without everyone working together.


You're absolutely right: There's no way out without everyone working together.

To this end, the Palestinians have to install leadership that actually has their best interests at heart. If they'd only realize that they're being played for pawns (by Hamas, Abbas, Iran, et al.), forget about the religious bullshit, and make peace with Israel - their quality of life would increase a zillion-fold. They'd have a partner with a strong economy who'd have a vested interest in helping them grow theirs, and Egypt would also remove their blockade.

The whole thing's just absolutely tragic on so many levels.

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Reply #27 posted 05/25/21 1:26pm

Ace

2freaky4church1 said:

Huge censorship of youtube videos and AP reporters fired because of pro Palestine views. Now we are seeing faked hate crimes. Awful.


Actually, social media like YouTube and Facebook are notorious for being too hospitable to anti-Israel propaganda. If they're "censoring", it's because they have proof that what's being posted is false. And I seriously doubt any AP reporters have been fired "because of pro Palestinian [sic] views". Perhaps, more accurately, some have been let go due to expressing anti-Israel propaganda?


"Faked hate crimes"? Please... Palestinians have, for years, been documented producing videos that present false narratives (to the extent that I've seen the term "Pallywood" being bandied about). So, let's not waste time going down that road...

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Reply #28 posted 05/25/21 1:46pm

Ace

2freaky4church1 said:

Norman Finkelstein made a great point. If the rockets were so fearsome why was there so little damage to buildings in Israel?

An IDF pilot just admitted he bombed the AP tower out of spite.

The best book on the subject is by Tom Segev. Follow human rights group B'tselem.


While I had newfound respect for Finkelstein after seeing him call out that BDS mental midget, he's still a bit of a kook.


Here's Finkelstein and you:


'The rockets haven't done much damage so far. So why is Israel being so mean and trying to stop more from being fired at them?'

confused


And can you please direct me to a (legitimate) source re: your claim re: the IDF pilot?

The best book on the subject is by Mosab Hassan Yousef. Follow @noatishby.

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Reply #29 posted 05/25/21 1:54pm

Ace

IanRG said:

Remember this flare up was started by Israel.


False.


The Israeli objective is to reduce the Palestinian's ability to oppose future actions by the Israelis to cease property and to maintain the blockade of Gaza.


False. The Israeli objective is stop rockets being targeted at their civilians.

And you perpetuate the myth that Israel is illegally seizing property from Palestinians. You also neglect to mention that Egypt is also blockading Gaza. What do you think Egypt's objective is there?

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