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Reply #30 posted 04/26/21 12:51pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Ian, I am against race politics, burn.

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Saying is not being.

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Despite your thread title, Tony was not a "White victim" to everyone not playing race politics. He was a mental health and bad policing victim.

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Reply #31 posted 04/26/21 1:03pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Who do cops over police? Poor people. Blacks are the big part of that content. But cops go after all poor people. Class is the main issue, race being a part of it. Obviously Chauven was a huge racist. His dimeanor proved that. The pigs who killed Timpa did it because of class and they hate mentally ill people. Timpa's cops got off, how odd.

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The mentally ill are not a class. The treatment by society of the mentally ill is not a class issue. It is a mental health and health care issue.

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The stats show that police over police poor people BUT within each socio-economic group they disproportionally over police people by race.

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This means that a criminal justice and policing system that has allowed police to get away with bad policing will impact more on people with wrong skin colour AND with mental health issues, both of whom tend to be poor - but they are not targeted because of their bank account but because of their differences.

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Reply #32 posted 04/26/21 1:26pm

IanRG

jaawwnn said:

I see the loony center are being delusional about their own fanaticism again.

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It is no coincidence that when societies are pushing to the extremes that these societies are going bad.

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Reply #33 posted 04/26/21 3:40pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Who do cops over police? Poor people. Blacks are the big part of that content. But cops go after all poor people. Class is the main issue, race being a part of it. Obviously Chauven was a huge racist. His dimeanor proved that. The pigs who killed Timpa did it because of class and they hate mentally ill people. Timpa's cops got off, how odd.



I call bullshit on this, simply because I personally know numerous middle and upper class Black people who have been stopped and harassed by the cops. One of them is literally a millionaire. Even wealthy Black celebrities like Chris Rock have said that they fear any interactions with the police. Do any middle or upper class White people feel this way??

I don’t disagree that the cops may also go after lower class Whites, but probably those who look and behave REALLY lower class, or dress outrageously, or demonstrate signs of mental illness.

You’re so obsessed with this “class “ issue that you’re unable to see how “race “ makes things more complicated. It’s easier to attack or ignore than it is to absorb truths that don’t fit your agenda
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Reply #34 posted 04/27/21 3:03am

jaawwnn

IanRG said:

jaawwnn said:

I see the loony center are being delusional about their own fanaticism again.

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It is no coincidence that when societies are pushing to the extremes that these societies are going bad.

No-one more extreme or lacking in self-doubt than a centrist.

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Reply #35 posted 04/27/21 4:10am

IanRG

jaawwnn said:

IanRG said:

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It is no coincidence that when societies are pushing to the extremes that these societies are going bad.

No-one more extreme or lacking in self-doubt than a centrist.

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This is simply wrong. You have just said that the extremists are less extreme than as those who are not extreme. You followed this up with those so driven by their stength of belief in their extremist ideology have more self-doubt that those less driven by ideology.

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Reply #36 posted 04/27/21 5:30am

jaawwnn

No such thing as "no ideology," that is ideology, there is no escape. I'm not trolling, I mean it. Your belief is that you can get opposing sides to compromise on whatever it is they are disagreeing about.

Centrism is to fervently believe in nothing, no goals but dissatisfaction and compromise for all. To declare a winner would be impure to the centrist, everyone must lose equally, everyone else must be the extreme ones despite the very extreme belief that there can be no winners.

Edit: "West-Wing brain" is what some call it, referring to the Aarin Sorkin show, where the liberal/centrist's perfect world includes no sweeping reforms, just endless bi-partisan compromise and as little achieved as possible.

[Edited 4/27/21 5:39am]

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Reply #37 posted 04/27/21 6:15am

2elijah

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Who do cops over police? Poor people. Blacks are the big part of that content. But cops go after all poor people. Class is the main issue, race being a part of it. Obviously Chauven was a huge racist. His dimeanor proved that. The pigs who killed Timpa did it because of class and they hate mentally ill people. Timpa's cops got off, how odd.



I call bullshit on this, simply because I personally know numerous middle and upper class Black people who have been stopped and harassed by the cops. One of them is literally a millionaire. Even wealthy Black celebrities like Chris Rock have said that they fear any interactions with the police. Do any middle or upper class White people feel this way??

I don’t disagree that the cops may also go after lower class Whites, but probably those who look and behave REALLY lower class, or dress outrageously, or demonstrate signs of mental illness.

You’re so obsessed with this “class “ issue that you’re unable to see how “race “ makes things more complicated. It’s easier to attack or ignore than it is to absorb truths that don’t fit your agenda

Yep, all the time.. everyday. The bad cops who stop Blacks, and have other intentions, don’t give a damn about the economic class of Black Americans..because they see ‘race’ first.
[Edited 4/27/21 15:37pm]
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Reply #38 posted 04/27/21 1:22pm

IanRG

IanRG said:

This is simply wrong. You have just said that the extremists are less extreme than as those who are not extreme. You followed this up with those so driven by their stength of belief in their extremist ideology have more self-doubt that those less driven by ideology.

jaawwnn said:

No such thing as "no ideology," that is ideology, there is no escape. I'm not trolling, I mean it. Your belief is that you can get opposing sides to compromise on whatever it is they are disagreeing about.

Centrism is to fervently believe in nothing, no goals but dissatisfaction and compromise for all. To declare a winner would be impure to the centrist, everyone must lose equally, everyone else must be the extreme ones despite the very extreme belief that there can be no winners.

Edit: "West-Wing brain" is what some call it, referring to the Aarin Sorkin show, where the liberal/centrist's perfect world includes no sweeping reforms, just endless bi-partisan compromise and as little achieved as possible.

[Edited 4/27/21 5:39am]

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Bullshit on so many levels.

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You have fabricated an ideology for others based on a TV show and myths.

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I never said "no ideology", I said less driven by ideology. This is the problem with extremist - they look down on all those not as extreme as them more than they look down on people at other extremes. The greatest enemy of the far left is the moderate left, not the right.

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Centrism is not an "ism" - that is just a name given to the enemy. It is not a belief in nothing. It does not mean to have no goals. It does not mean always just comprise and never seek to win because winning is bad. It is a myth created by people opposed to people like Tony Blair who was seen as selling out left-wing Labour beliefs.

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To think that centrist only believe that there must be no winners is your extremist belief, not the belief of any ordinary, normal person.

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The difference between an extremist and everyone else is not that everyone else thinks there must never be sweeping reforms. It is that, rather than always seeking a constant revolution against those other people or ideologies, there is a recognition that sweeping reforms, when required, are required for the benefits of reforms not the ideological agenda of the extremists pushing them. Jeremy Corbin and the other Brexiteers demonstrated that Western parliaments fail when extremists never seek to work together on a voted for sweeping reform, not when fictitious US Presidents seek to work with Alan Alda.

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In this case in this thread sweeping reforms of the police and how they handle people of targeted races or people with mental health issues are necessary. This is not because the police are the tools of the dominant class or race but because people are getting murdered with impunity and people are not getting the health care they need or the equal and equitable chances in society as others. The end result of these sweeping reforms is a win:win for everyone, not a bipartisan compromise where everyone is seeking to never win in the hope of achieving as little as possible.

[Edited 4/27/21 13:36pm]

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Reply #39 posted 04/28/21 5:43am

jaawwnn

"This is the problem with extremist - they look down on all those not as extreme as them more than they look down on people at other extremes. "

You said it buddy.

Keep shouting "extremist" at everyone who calls you on your beliefs though, real sophisticated argument. I'm just pinging it back to you and it kind of sucks doesn't it? Real reductive dumb stuff. Maybe think about that one.


But yes, Tony Blair is a war criminal who should be prosecuted as such. Hilarious that anyone would be defending him unprompted in 2021. The centrist dad is real!



[Edited 4/28/21 5:49am]

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Reply #40 posted 04/28/21 11:26am

2freaky4church
1

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Truth always before idealogy.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #41 posted 04/28/21 11:33am

IanRG

jaawwnn said:

"This is the problem with extremist - they look down on all those not as extreme as them more than they look down on people at other extremes. "

You said it buddy.

Keep shouting "extremist" at everyone who calls you on your beliefs though, real sophisticated argument. I'm just pinging it back to you and it kind of sucks doesn't it? Real reductive dumb stuff. Maybe think about that one.


But yes, Tony Blair is a war criminal who should be prosecuted as such. Hilarious that anyone would be defending him unprompted in 2021. The centrist dad is real!



[Edited 4/28/21 5:49am]

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No it does not suck, it comfirms what I said. You wrote off the majority of people with the myth that they believe in nothing, are goalless and hate to win at politics because winning is bad based on a TV show - all because, to you, they are not as good as you in your political beliefs.

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You need to learn to read. I NEVER defended Tony Blair - I just pointed out when the myth of the "extreme" centre became popular in the anti-liberal left. Here is the paragraph for you again:

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"Centrism is not an "ism" - that is just a name given to the enemy. It is not a belief in nothing. It does not mean to have no goals. It does not mean always just comprise and never seek to win because winning is bad. It is a myth created by people opposed to people like Tony Blair who was seen as selling out left-wing Labour beliefs."

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War criminals exist across the full spectrum of political beliefs. Naming an enemy of your faction does not mean I have defended anyone - There is no defence of Tony Blair in what I said. I am not even from the UK.

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Please note: No one called you an extremist in this thread, you tagged yourself as one. You came into the thread to attack those who, by definition are not extremists as extremists with you opening remark of "I see the loony center are being delusional about their own fanaticism again." How sophisticated is that?

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If you want something to think about - consider this: The last person who should seek to define other people's ideology is a person who hates those other people because they don't have the same ideology as them - This results in plainly stupid assumptions like "Xism is to fervently believe in nothing, no goals but dissatisfaction and compromise for all. To declare a winner would be impure to the Xist, everyone must lose equally, everyone else must be the extreme ones despite the very extreme belief that there can be no winners." You were pinged for this bullshit and you replied to that ping as above!!!

[Edited 4/28/21 11:44am]

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Reply #42 posted 04/28/21 11:41am

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Truth always before idealogy.

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Exactly. So this means looking at the statistics that comfirm that are every income level, the US Police force is far more likely to use more aggressive methods against a Black American than against another person in the same socio-economic group - whether or not they have committed a crime.

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This does not mean that bad policing is limited to being against just people from one race. It also occurs disproptionally against people with mental health issues.

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This is not an ideological class war.

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Reply #43 posted 04/28/21 11:44am

2freaky4church
1

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Because the black community has more concentrated poverty. Cops do similar pograms in places like West Virginia. Thomas Sowell even made the dumb claim that blacks learned their "bad" culture from white Rednecks, his term. Odd that he is a hero of the right.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #44 posted 04/28/21 11:49am

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Because the black community has more concentrated poverty.

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You keep missing the point - AT EVERY level of income. AT every level of income. At every LEVEL OF INCOME.

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It is not an ideological class war. It is systemic racism. That poverty can lead to people seeking to do more non white collar crimes can exist side by side with systemic racism but at every level of income the Police overpolice based on race.

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Reply #45 posted 04/28/21 11:54am

2freaky4church
1

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Evidence?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #46 posted 04/28/21 12:03pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Evidence?

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Yes there is oodles of evidence. It has been produced here many, many times everytime someone here from the far right has sought to deny systemic racism.

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Look it up.

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In the meantime ponder the word of Chomsky on this:

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"There is also a common variant of what has sometimes been called “intentional ignorance” of what it is inconvenient to know: “Yes, bad things happened in the past, but let us put all of that behind us and march on to a glorious future, all sharing equally in the rights and opportunities of citizenry.” The appalling statistics of today’s circumstances of African-American life can be confronted by other bitter residues of a shameful past, laments about black cultural inferiority, or worse, forgetting how our wealth and privilege was created in no small part by the centuries of torture and degradation of which we are the beneficiaries and they remain the victims. As for the very partial and hopelessly inadequate compensation that decency would require — that lies somewhere between the memory hole and anathema."

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Reply #47 posted 04/28/21 12:40pm

2freaky4church
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Here's your evidence bub:

https://www.nyu.edu/about...olice.html

Remember police patrol black neighborhoods more, why they stop more drivers. You can prove some racism but not universal racism, since there are black cops.

Actual brutality happens with the poor.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #48 posted 04/28/21 12:42pm

2elijah

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Evidence?


You need to research some police that broke the blue wall of silence, and revealed the racism that exists in policing.
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Reply #49 posted 04/28/21 12:45pm

2freaky4church
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Never said there wasn't racism.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #50 posted 04/28/21 12:46pm

2freaky4church
1

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It's just real hard to define what racism actually is.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #51 posted 04/28/21 1:11pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Here's your evidence bub:

https://www.nyu.edu/about...olice.html

Remember police patrol black neighborhoods more, why they stop more drivers. You can prove some racism but not universal racism, since there are black cops.

Actual brutality happens with the poor.

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If you know the evidence, why push the line that systemic racism is not the issue?

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This report confirms that BY RESIDENTIAL area, Black Americans are stopped more. It states that they are LESS likely to find drugs, guns etc in the cars of Black people when stopped. It found that by individual area and across the nation that there is a drop in the disparity between stops when the Police could not see the race of the people in the car.

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This is not a ideological class issue.

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Seeking to find excuses such as the are black police to make it primarily another issue is what Chomsky would call "intentional ignorance of what is inconvenient to know".

[Edited 4/28/21 13:17pm]

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Reply #52 posted 04/28/21 1:39pm

2elijah

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

It's just real hard to define what racism actually is.


Are you serious? This country was built on it. With all the shared experiences over the years discussed about it here, documented history, and you don’t know what racism is? Listen to the many people that described their experiences, and tactics used for years to deny equal opportunity to many.
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Reply #53 posted 04/28/21 1:41pm

2elijah

avatar

IanRG said:



2freaky4church1 said:


Here's your evidence bub:



https://www.nyu.edu/about...olice.html



Remember police patrol black neighborhoods more, why they stop more drivers. You can prove some racism but not universal racism, since there are black cops.



Actual brutality happens with the poor.





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If you know the evidence, why push the line that systemic racism is not the issue?


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This report confirms that BY RESIDENTIAL area, Black Americans are stopped more. It states that they are LESS likely to find drugs, guns etc in the cars of Black people when stopped. It found that by individual area and across the nation that there is a drop in the disparity between stops when the Police could not see the race of the people in the car.


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This is not a ideological class issue.


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Seeking to find excuses such as the are black police to make it primarily another issue is what Chomsky would call "intentional ignorance of what is inconvenient to know".

[Edited 4/28/21 13:17pm]


I think what many don’t get is that they are stopped and killed at a ‘higher rate’ than Whites, even though there are more Whites in this country than Blacks.
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Reply #54 posted 04/28/21 2:10pm

2freaky4church
1

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Candace Owens describes her experiences, you don't buy hers?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #55 posted 04/28/21 2:11pm

2freaky4church
1

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As Noam Chomsky says, racism is a thin veneer. Scratch it and you find class issues or ignorance. Also, right wing media sell lots of lies, they suck up.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #56 posted 04/28/21 2:25pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

As Noam Chomsky says, racism is a thin veneer. Scratch it and you find class issues or ignorance. Also, right wing media sell lots of lies, they suck up.


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Selective quotes out of context cannot dismiss what he said about intentional ignorance specifically in denying the systemic racism that Black Americans in his own words still suffer from. "They remain the victims". Put the two together and what you have is when it is demonstrably not just a class issue, then the systemic racism and the denial of this is intentional ignorance.
[Edited 4/28/21 14:35pm]
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Reply #57 posted 04/28/21 2:29pm

2elijah

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Candace Owens describes her experiences, you don't buy hers?


Oh I’m sure she’s had her experiences with racism, and it’s her right to share it, but then if she feels she has a right to, then she shouldn’t attack other Black Americans for calling out racism, and speaking of their experiences with it.

Her choice of political party is her own, but where’s the rules that says because she’s Black, and a Republican, that no Black American should disagree with her views or criticize her for it, when she does that all the time to Black Democrats?
Give me a damn break. Lol.

2freak, try and remember that Black Americans are ‘individuals.’
[Edited 4/28/21 14:31pm]
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Reply #58 posted 04/28/21 2:35pm

jjhunsecker

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I’m trying to understand exactly WHY Freaky is trying to deny that systemic racism exists in American society, despite it being a major factor in the lives of Black and Latino and Indigenous people here, no matter what their income or level of education or “class”...

I keep thinking of the Paul Simon lyric: “A man believes what he wants to believe, and disregards the rest “
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #59 posted 04/28/21 2:42pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

2elijah said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Candace Owens describes her experiences, you don't buy hers?


Oh I’m sure she’s had her experiences with racism, and it’s her right to share it, but then if she feels she has a right to, then she shouldn’t attack other Black Americans for calling out racism, and speaking of their experiences with it.

Her choice of political party is her own, but where’s the rules that says because she’s Black, and a Republican, that no Black American should disagree with her views or criticize her for it, when she does that all the time to Black Democrats?
Give me a damn break. Lol.

2freak, try and remember that Black Americans are ‘individuals.’
[Edited 4/28/21 14:31pm]


Actually, didn’t Candace and her family once sue a school system because she was being racially harassed by some white schoolmates, and they said that the school didn’t do enough to protect her? I bet she doesn’t tell THAT story anymore... it’s not one her current audience wants to hear.

Like you said, Candace has the right to her views. And the rest of us have the right to criticize her.
But in the end, she found a good “hustle “ that brings her the notoriety she apparently craves so badly.
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Forums > Politics & Religion > Before George Floyd there was Tony Timpa. White victim.