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Thread started 04/18/21 4:07pm

AMERICA1ST

Everyone wants to come to USA - whats the difference between refugees and immgrants and migrants?

They all want to get into the USA despite the fact that it is a racist country. Biden looks as clueless on refugee numbers as he does on the border. He allowed Cortez to bully him and is back tracking on refugees. Why is there a different number for refugees but "migrants" can flood in by the thousands with no limits? I thought illegals were supposed to be refugees because that was how illegal immigration was being justified. Could it be that 100% of the "migrants" and "undocumented workers" are expected to vote Democrat and give birth to anchor babies that will instantly be granted citizenship despite the fact that their parents broke immigration laws to give it to them? Or are migrants Hispanics tat smuggle across the southern border while refugees are all the other people that are mostly other nationalities that come across the ocean to get to this land of prejudice and bigotry?

[Edited 4/18/21 16:12pm]

[Edited 4/18/21 16:21pm]

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Reply #1 posted 04/18/21 4:26pm

luv4u

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Most just want to come to have a better life for themselves and their children. Or escaping conflicts and genocide etc., to be safe.



https://www.unhcr.org/what-is-a-refugee.html



Ellis Island:
https://www.statueofliber...w-history/


https://www.iom.int/key-migration-terms


https://emergency.unhcr.o...definition

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Reply #2 posted 04/19/21 6:16am

AMERICA1ST

luv4u said:

Most just want to come to have a better life for themselves and their children. Or escaping conflicts and genocide etc., to be safe.



https://www.unhcr.org/what-is-a-refugee.html



Ellis Island:
https://www.statueofliber...w-history/


https://www.iom.int/key-migration-terms


https://emergency.unhcr.o...definition

I agree that some are coming for those reasons. But are they escaping all of that by coming to the racist, oppressive, regime of America?

And if so, should America take them in forever?

And is so, how will that be sustainable? The US already takes in more people than all other developed countries combined.

Is not the difference between Ellis Island and how immigration today the legality of it all? The flow through Ellis Island was processed and controlled to some extent. Today, we don't know who is coming into the country or what they are bringing with them. Thus, the comparison of the two is essentially flawed. The country was different and the people that were coming were different - indeed, the word was different then. Falling back on that is oversimplifying the issue and lacks integrity.

[Edited 4/19/21 6:18am]

[Edited 4/19/21 6:24am]

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Reply #3 posted 04/19/21 7:41am

jaawwnn

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People want to go to America because it's a stable country, which looks pretty good when you're in the middle of a war. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #4 posted 04/19/21 8:24am

2freaky4church
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America is the least racist first world country, or so says Noam Chomsky. Class politics is what we need BAD.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #5 posted 04/19/21 4:42pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

America is the least racist first world country, or so says Noam Chomsky. Class politics is what we need BAD.


.
Don't trust the Noam. Think for yourself about how endemic systemic racism is in the USA,
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Reply #6 posted 04/19/21 6:04pm

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

America is the least racist first world country, or so says Noam Chomsky. Class politics is what we need BAD.



Race trumps Class in America
The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #7 posted 04/20/21 6:05am

jaawwnn

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jjhunsecker said:

2freaky4church1 said:

America is the least racist first world country, or so says Noam Chomsky. Class politics is what we need BAD.

Race trumps Class in America The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

This is just silly. You don't have to be deny racism to see how silly this is.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #8 posted 04/20/21 6:33am

jjhunsecker

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jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


2freaky4church1 said:

America is the least racist first world country, or so says Noam Chomsky. Class politics is what we need BAD.



Race trumps Class in America The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

This is just silly. You don't have to be deny racism to see how silly this is.



Are you addressing my comments or Freaky’s ?
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #9 posted 04/20/21 6:42am

jaawwnn

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jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

This is just silly. You don't have to be deny racism to see how silly this is.

Are you addressing my comments or Freaky’s ?

Yours!

The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now unless you mean "when attacked personally on Fox News" or something are you telling me that, I dunno, Barack Obama or P Diddy is treated worse in life than, say, a white cleaner who can't afford healthcare in the middle of rural nowheresville? It's completely insane. Poor people of all colors have way more in common than they do with any rich people.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #10 posted 04/20/21 7:57am

jjhunsecker

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jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


jaawwnn said:


This is just silly. You don't have to be deny racism to see how silly this is.



Are you addressing my comments or Freaky’s ?

Yours!

The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now unless you mean "when attacked personally on Fox News" or something are you telling me that, I dunno, Barack Obama or P Diddy is treated worse in life than, say, a white cleaner who can't afford healthcare in the middle of rural nowheresville? It's completely insane. Poor people of all colors have way more in common than they do with any rich people.



You’re talking about multi millionaire celebrities. I’m talking about the successful Black people I know personally- middle and upper class Black people- like myself and my friends and family- who have been followed in stores, stopped by the police for no reason, have been questioned about why they are in certain places, have been looked on with suspicion by other people (despite their dress and demeanor). These things simply do not happen to Whites unless they look truly homeless or crazy. So I stand by my statement 100%

Not to make this personal, but I assume you are not a Black American. Because I believe almost every Black American person (and perceptive White Americans) would totally agree with me
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #11 posted 04/20/21 8:02am

jjhunsecker

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jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


jaawwnn said:


This is just silly. You don't have to be deny racism to see how silly this is.



Are you addressing my comments or Freaky’s ?

Yours!

The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now unless you mean "when attacked personally on Fox News" or something are you telling me that, I dunno, Barack Obama or P Diddy is treated worse in life than, say, a white cleaner who can't afford healthcare in the middle of rural nowheresville? It's completely insane. Poor people of all colors have way more in common than they do with any rich people.



So I’m not saying that class is not an issue, but that for Black people in America, the markers of class- dress, demeanor, income, education- do not protect them from suspicion and mistreatments and discrimination
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #12 posted 04/20/21 8:07am

jaawwnn

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

Yours!

The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now unless you mean "when attacked personally on Fox News" or something are you telling me that, I dunno, Barack Obama or P Diddy is treated worse in life than, say, a white cleaner who can't afford healthcare in the middle of rural nowheresville? It's completely insane. Poor people of all colors have way more in common than they do with any rich people.

You’re talking about multi millionaire celebrities. I’m talking about the successful Black people I know personally- middle and upper class Black people- like myself and my friends and family- who have been followed in stores, stopped by the police for no reason, have been questioned about why they are in certain places, have been looked on with suspicion by other people (despite their dress and demeanor). These things simply do not happen to Whites unless they look truly homeless or crazy. So I stand by my statement 100% Not to make this personal, but I assume you are not a Black American. Because I believe almost every Black American person (and perceptive White Americans) would totally agree with me

Ah ok, but that totally changes what you said.

Race trumps Class in America The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now you are making qualifications for this (which i'm cool with btw!), I don't doubt your stories.

I don't agree that race trumps class, since I think these things are intersectional and an America that had no violence based on race would still not be a good place, but I take your point about the racism affecting people from top to bottom.


"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #13 posted 04/20/21 8:54am

jjhunsecker

avatar

jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


jaawwnn said:


Yours!

The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now unless you mean "when attacked personally on Fox News" or something are you telling me that, I dunno, Barack Obama or P Diddy is treated worse in life than, say, a white cleaner who can't afford healthcare in the middle of rural nowheresville? It's completely insane. Poor people of all colors have way more in common than they do with any rich people.



You’re talking about multi millionaire celebrities. I’m talking about the successful Black people I know personally- middle and upper class Black people- like myself and my friends and family- who have been followed in stores, stopped by the police for no reason, have been questioned about why they are in certain places, have been looked on with suspicion by other people (despite their dress and demeanor). These things simply do not happen to Whites unless they look truly homeless or crazy. So I stand by my statement 100% Not to make this personal, but I assume you are not a Black American. Because I believe almost every Black American person (and perceptive White Americans) would totally agree with me

Ah ok, but that totally changes what you said.

Race trumps Class in America The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now you are making qualifications for this (which i'm cool with btw!), I don't doubt your stories.

I don't agree that race trumps class, since I think these things are intersectional and an America that had no violence based on race would still not be a good place, but I take your point about the racism affecting people from top to bottom.




It doesn’t change what I said at all. My point is that class as a concept doesn’t really apply to Black people in America since the markers of class that differentiate how various strata of White people are treated are thrown out the window when it comes to Blacks. All Black people- no matter income or education- are pretty much treated the same. Of course it’s better to have money than not, but the protection that money gives to White people are usually denied to Black people of any income
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #14 posted 04/20/21 9:07am

jaawwnn

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jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

Ah ok, but that totally changes what you said.

Race trumps Class in America The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now you are making qualifications for this (which i'm cool with btw!), I don't doubt your stories.

I don't agree that race trumps class, since I think these things are intersectional and an America that had no violence based on race would still not be a good place, but I take your point about the racism affecting people from top to bottom.


It doesn’t change what I said at all. My point is that class as a concept doesn’t really apply to Black people in America since the markers of class that differentiate how various strata of White people are treated are thrown out the window when it comes to Blacks. All Black people- no matter income or education- are pretty much treated the same. Of course it’s better to have money than not, but the protection that money gives to White people are usually denied to Black people of any income

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree that "class as a concept" is something you can opt in or out of.

My argument is that it is not either/or when it comes to class and race, it's both/and always.





[Edited 4/20/21 9:09am]

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #15 posted 04/20/21 10:25am

jjhunsecker

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jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


jaawwnn said:


Ah ok, but that totally changes what you said.

Race trumps Class in America The poorest White is treated better than the most middle or upper class educated Black person

Now you are making qualifications for this (which i'm cool with btw!), I don't doubt your stories.

I don't agree that race trumps class, since I think these things are intersectional and an America that had no violence based on race would still not be a good place, but I take your point about the racism affecting people from top to bottom.




It doesn’t change what I said at all. My point is that class as a concept doesn’t really apply to Black people in America since the markers of class that differentiate how various strata of White people are treated are thrown out the window when it comes to Blacks. All Black people- no matter income or education- are pretty much treated the same. Of course it’s better to have money than not, but the protection that money gives to White people are usually denied to Black people of any income

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree that "class as a concept" is something you can opt in or out of.

My argument is that it is not either/or when it comes to class and race, it's both/and always.





[Edited 4/20/21 9:09am]



I actually agree that it is both.
But a White person- unless they look totally homeless or crazy or are dressed outrageously- is given the benefit of doubt in America, and can pretty much lead a life free of harassment and suspicion.
A Black person- despite their bearing and education and achievement- will always be seen in a suspicious manner, and their class does not protect them from suspicion and even mistreatment.

I quoted this joke from Chris Rock before, but I think it’s appropriate: “No White person in this theater would trade places with me... and I’m RICH ! Even the white busboy in the kitchen is saying’Nah, I’ll stick with this White thing for now’”
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #16 posted 04/20/21 10:43am

jaawwnn

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree that "class as a concept" is something you can opt in or out of.

My argument is that it is not either/or when it comes to class and race, it's both/and always.





[Edited 4/20/21 9:09am]

I actually agree that it is both. But a White person- unless they look totally homeless or crazy or are dressed outrageously- is given the benefit of doubt in America, and can pretty much lead a life free of harassment and suspicion. A Black person- despite their bearing and education and achievement- will always be seen in a suspicious manner, and their class does not protect them from suspicion and even mistreatment. I quoted this joke from Chris Rock before, but I think it’s appropriate: “No White person in this theater would trade places with me... and I’m RICH ! Even the white busboy in the kitchen is saying’Nah, I’ll stick with this White thing for now’”

Right, yeah, I mean, I'm not disagreeing about the racism, I probably jumped the gun a bit when I saw "race trumps class" because I don't agree they are in competition, but I could have worded it better rather than calling it silly. I'm not sure what to make of Noam Chomsky's comments, or where he made them. I've only ever heard black people from America talk of how strange they felt when in Europe due to the lack of overt racism (not that it doesn't exist or anything, but clearly it must be less in your face).

[Edited 4/20/21 10:44am]

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #17 posted 04/20/21 10:48am

2freaky4church
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jj, how did they get successful? I thought there was racism? lol. One fact is social science literature never uses class in studies. They use race for pc reasons.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #18 posted 04/20/21 10:49am

2freaky4church
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Chomsky said this because Europe is more malleable. We are much more diverse. I only see everybody getting along.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #19 posted 04/20/21 1:09pm

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

jj, how did they get successful? I thought there was racism? lol. One fact is social science literature never uses class in studies. They use race for pc reasons.



By being twice as good as their White competition

Are you denying systemic racism exists in American society?
Funny how so much you sound like the Tucker Carlson’s of the world... I’m beginning to wonder about you

It’s like fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right have much more in common than they do with rational people
[Edited 4/20/21 13:36pm]
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #20 posted 04/20/21 1:30pm

uPtoWnNY

jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree that "class as a concept" is something you can opt in or out of.

My argument is that it is not either/or when it comes to class and race, it's both/and always.





[Edited 4/20/21 9:09am]

I actually agree that it is both. But a White person- unless they look totally homeless or crazy or are dressed outrageously- is given the benefit of doubt in America, and can pretty much lead a life free of harassment and suspicion. A Black person- despite their bearing and education and achievement- will always be seen in a suspicious manner, and their class does not protect them from suspicion and even mistreatment. I quoted this joke from Chris Rock before, but I think it’s appropriate: “No White person in this theater would trade places with me... and I’m RICH ! Even the white busboy in the kitchen is saying’Nah, I’ll stick with this White thing for now’”

....and there it is.

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Reply #21 posted 04/20/21 1:44pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


jaawwnn said:


Well we'll just have to agree to disagree that "class as a concept" is something you can opt in or out of.

My argument is that it is not either/or when it comes to class and race, it's both/and always.






[Edited 4/20/21 9:09am]



I actually agree that it is both. But a White person- unless they look totally homeless or crazy or are dressed outrageously- is given the benefit of doubt in America, and can pretty much lead a life free of harassment and suspicion. A Black person- despite their bearing and education and achievement- will always be seen in a suspicious manner, and their class does not protect them from suspicion and even mistreatment. I quoted this joke from Chris Rock before, but I think it’s appropriate: “No White person in this theater would trade places with me... and I’m RICH ! Even the white busboy in the kitchen is saying’Nah, I’ll stick with this White thing for now’”

Right, yeah, I mean, I'm not disagreeing about the racism, I probably jumped the gun a bit when I saw "race trumps class" because I don't agree they are in competition, but I could have worded it better rather than calling it silly. I'm not sure what to make of Noam Chomsky's comments, or where he made them. I've only ever heard black people from America talk of how strange they felt when in Europe due to the lack of overt racism (not that it doesn't exist or anything, but clearly it must be less in your face).

[Edited 4/20/21 10:44am]



I’ve traveled throughout England many times over the past few decades, and the only way I can describe it is that I witnessed both MORE and LESS racism than I have seen in the US. I’ve seen more interracial couples and interracial groups of friends out in London and Manchester and Liverpool than I have seen in New York and Boston and San Francisco and Los Angeles. On the other hand, I read stuff in the English newspapers about Meghan Markle in particular that struck me as very racist, and I don’t think would ever be published in a mainstream American newspaper or magazine. It’s a very head spinning experience
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #22 posted 04/20/21 1:57pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

One fact is social science literature never uses class in studies. They use race for pc reasons.

.

Chomsky said this because Europe is more malleable. We are much more diverse. I only see everybody getting along.

.

Your one fact is wrong: class and socio-economic group are regularly used in social science literature.

.

You need to look beyond Chomsky. His opinions are simply not that good.

.

I do not see how you can say you only see everybody getting along. I also do not see that you believe this as you regularly argue for a class war.

[Edited 4/20/21 14:41pm]

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Reply #23 posted 04/20/21 2:23pm

jaawwnn

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jhunsecker said:[quote]

jaawwnn said:




I’ve traveled throughout England many times over the past few decades, and the only way I can describe it is that I witnessed both MORE and LESS racism than I have seen in the US. I’ve seen more interracial couples and interracial groups of friends out in London and Manchester and Liverpool than I have seen in New York and Boston and San Francisco and Los Angeles. On the other hand, I read stuff in the English newspapers about Meghan Markle in particular that struck me as very racist, and I don’t think would ever be published in a mainstream American newspaper or magazine. It’s a very head spinning experience

English tabloids are straight up racist, you don't have to look for qualifiers on this one, their only equivalent is Fox News.

jjhunsecker said:



It’s like fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right have much more in common than they do with rational people
[Edited 4/20/21 13:36pm]


You don't have a monopoly on common sense just because you're a centrist.
What the "fanatical" left and right have in common is a critique of the fanatical center, little else.
[Edited 4/20/21 14:47pm]
"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #24 posted 04/20/21 2:36pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

jaawwnn said:[quote]

jhunsecker said:


English tabloids are straight up racist, you don't have to look for qualifiers on this one, their only equivalent is Fox News.

jjhunsecker said:



It’s like fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right have much more in common than they do with rational people
[Edited 4/20/21 13:36pm]


You don't have a monopoly on common sense just because you're a centrist.
[Edited 4/20/21 14:26pm]


I call myself a “liberal with sanity”...😂
But it’s weird reading Freaky, of all people, echoing right wing talking points on race. That’s EXACTLY the same thing Tucker Carlson , and even Trump, have said
But
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #25 posted 04/20/21 2:40pm

IanRG

jaawwnn said:

English tabloids are straight up racist, you don't have to look for qualifiers on this one, their only equivalent is Fox News.

jjhunsecker said:

It’s like fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right have much more in common than they do with rational people [Edited 4/20/21 13:36pm]
You don't have a monopoly on common sense just because you're a centrist.

.

The common link to Murdoch is crucual here - he has always relied on the malleability of his audience. As an Australian, once again sorry world.

.

Not being a fanatic is no guarantee of having common sense, but it is a good start.

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Reply #26 posted 04/20/21 2:50pm

jaawwnn

avatar

IanRG said:



jaawwnn said:


English tabloids are straight up racist, you don't have to look for qualifiers on this one, their only equivalent is Fox News.

jjhunsecker said:


It’s like fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right have much more in common than they do with rational people [Edited 4/20/21 13:36pm]

You don't have a monopoly on common sense just because you're a centrist.

.


The common link to Murdoch is crucual here - he has always relied on the malleability of his audience.



This is a good point. There's a Fox News equivalent, GB News, being launched in the UK soon. I don't think anyone quite realises how badly its going to get once its up and running. I'm genuinely quite worried.

I'm just across the water here in Ireland, but with things very fragile up north, god knows what they might stoke.
[Edited 4/20/21 14:54pm]
"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #27 posted 04/21/21 7:19am

2freaky4church
1

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They come because of desparation, not the American Dream--scam.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #28 posted 04/21/21 7:33am

jjhunsecker

avatar

IanRG said:

2freaky4church1 said:

One fact is social science literature never uses class in studies. They use race for pc reasons.

.

Chomsky said this because Europe is more malleable. We are much more diverse. I only see everybody getting along.

.

Your one fact is wrong: class and socio-economic group are regularly used in social science literature.

.

You need to look beyond Chomsky. His opinions are simply not that good.

.

I do not see how you can say you only see everybody getting along. I also do not see that you believe this as you regularly argue for a class war.

[Edited 4/20/21 14:41pm]

And contrary to Freaky's assertion the "everyone getting along", it's been my experience that it's lower class Whites who have been the MOST hostile towards Blacks and Latinos , while more educated and upper class Whites less hostile . So these type of views have made some sort of alliance within class lines very difficult in America

#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #29 posted 04/21/21 8:17am

2freaky4church
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Lower class? Sounds bigoted.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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