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Reply #30 posted 03/21/21 4:42am

IanRG

uPtoWnNY said:

lust said:

onlyforaminute said: Where did anger come into the equation?

No anger from me. I came to my conclusions through studying history and science.

I don't even broadcast my beliefs unless asked. Then I wide-eyed responses like "really???", or arrogant shit like "you're lost" or "I'll pray for you". That shit pisses me off.

.

Which leads to the obvious question: Who asked you to broadcast your beliefs by starting this thread?

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Reply #31 posted 03/21/21 11:21am

onlyforaminute

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lust said:

onlyforaminute said:


I find no substance in other people's anger. If that's all they have that's fine for them. Not much I can do with it.


Where did anger come into the equation?



To try to be blunt since folks seem to be obtuse. What in the book explains how just being pissed off at the white man for christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century? I've learned a few things about history and have accepted there is no paradise it's all struggle over one thing or another.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #32 posted 03/21/21 11:32am

lust

avatar

onlyforaminute said:

lust said:



Where did anger come into the equation?



To try to be blunt since folks seem to be obtuse. What in the book explains how just being pissed off at the white man for christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century? I've learned a few things about history and have accepted there is no paradise it's all struggle over one thing or another.


I see. I can’t answer that as I’ve not read the book. But I agree that being pissed off about a thing doesn’t help anybody in any situation. So if the book IS suggesting that “just being pissed off at the white man for Christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century” then that would be ridiculous. I’d be very surprised if that was what the book claims though.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #33 posted 03/21/21 11:47am

onlyforaminute

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lust said:

onlyforaminute said:




To try to be blunt since folks seem to be obtuse. What in the book explains how just being pissed off at the white man for christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century? I've learned a few things about history and have accepted there is no paradise it's all struggle over one thing or another.


I see. I can’t answer that as I’ve not read the book. But I agree that being pissed off about a thing doesn’t help anybody in any situation. So if the book IS suggesting that “just being pissed off at the white man for Christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century” then that would be ridiculous. I’d be very surprised if that was what the book claims though.


Well all i know is today we live in the 21st century and while there are repercussions that are still impacting the black community in this country. The question still stands how is the Christian church today keeping black people oppressed by saying forgive? Which I'm not sure that's even a strong message in black churches today. Obama took a crap load of flack for being in a black church that supposedly was preaching "anti American" rhetoric cause it was preaching the truth about history.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #34 posted 03/21/21 12:21pm

IanRG

lust said:

onlyforaminute said:
To try to be blunt since folks seem to be obtuse. What in the book explains how just being pissed off at the white man for christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century? I've learned a few things about history and have accepted there is no paradise it's all struggle over one thing or another.
I see. I can’t answer that as I’ve not read the book. But I agree that being pissed off about a thing doesn’t help anybody in any situation. So if the book IS suggesting that “just being pissed off at the white man for Christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century” then that would be ridiculous. I’d be very surprised if that was what the book claims though.

.

From the book: "When the most atrocious acts are done to us (Charleston, SC church massacre), we pray for comfort, and then we tell the ones who hate us that, if they just ask god for forgiveness, they can still find a place in heaven right along the same people they harmed."

.

I would be very surprised if it is not a book about why people should be pissed off.

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Reply #35 posted 03/21/21 12:37pm

onlyforaminute

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I'm more concerned that our young people are being fed so much bs until they have gotten the impression that there's some magical place in this world for them to escape to that they don't have to learn and understand algebra.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #36 posted 03/21/21 1:55pm

lust

avatar

IanRG said:



lust said:


onlyforaminute said:
To try to be blunt since folks seem to be obtuse. What in the book explains how just being pissed off at the white man for christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century? I've learned a few things about history and have accepted there is no paradise it's all struggle over one thing or another.

I see. I can’t answer that as I’ve not read the book. But I agree that being pissed off about a thing doesn’t help anybody in any situation. So if the book IS suggesting that “just being pissed off at the white man for Christianity is going to do anything progressive for black Americans in the 21st century” then that would be ridiculous. I’d be very surprised if that was what the book claims though.

.


From the book: "When the most atrocious acts are done to us (Charleston, SC church massacre), we pray for comfort, and then we tell the ones who hate us that, if they just ask god for forgiveness, they can still find a place in heaven right along the same people they harmed."


.


I would be very surprised if it is not a book about why people should be pissed off.



Are you suggesting that the book is just telling people to be pissed off and that that emotion alone is going to bring progress? Because that’s the claim that I was responding to.

I think that it’s totally reasonable to shine a light on the history of what caused one’s world view so that they have better information to decide if it’s a rational one or not as opposed to just accepting it as received wisdom.

And if that history illicits anger, then perhaps that’s for a reason and a good opportunity for everyone to do some honest soul searching*

If a belief is rational, then it will hold up to scrutiny. The very fact that merely questioning these beliefs is discouraged and so triggering should really be a red flag to all.

*A colloquialism and not to be read as a belief in the concept of souls.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #37 posted 03/21/21 2:42pm

IanRG

lust said:

IanRG said:

.

From the book: "When the most atrocious acts are done to us (Charleston, SC church massacre), we pray for comfort, and then we tell the ones who hate us that, if they just ask god for forgiveness, they can still find a place in heaven right along the same people they harmed."

.

I would be very surprised if it is not a book about why people should be pissed off.

Are you suggesting that the book is just telling people to be pissed off and that that emotion alone is going to bring progress? Because that’s the claim that I was responding to. I think that it’s totally reasonable to shine a light on the history of what caused one’s world view so that they have better information to decide if it’s a rational one or not as opposed to just accepting it as received wisdom. And if that history illicits anger, then perhaps that’s for a reason and a good opportunity for everyone to do some honest soul searching* If a belief is rational, then it will hold up to scrutiny. The very fact that merely questioning these beliefs is discouraged and so triggering should really be a red flag to all. *A colloquialism and not to be read as a belief in the concept of souls.

.

The book's title is to tell people to move on so they can be better and the justification selected by the OP is because people should be upset that they may share Heaven with other repentant sinners, specifically those who have sinned against them.

.

I see no reason to believe that the book is anything other than supplying reasons to be pissed off and to encourage those pissed off to walk away from Christianity to come out from their oppression, ie progress.

.

There is nothing wrong with shedding a light on history and correcting for wrongs of the past - NOTHING I said seeks to hide history or prevent shedding a light on history. Indeed, my first response was on the errors in popularist Western understanding of history.

.

There is nothing wrong with questioning beliefs. It is essential to all beliefs that they be questioned. To dismiss an analysis of what we can discern about the book from its quotes as discouraging questioning and being triggered is discouraging critical analysis of these quotes - This should be a red flag to all.

.

The issue behind that quote is crucial - Should we forgive people who have repented for their sins? This is a core basis of Christianity as taught by Jesus. History has shown time and time again that when a group cannot let go of grudges held against those in another group that have repented for their acts and tried to make peace and recompense then the first group just perpetuates hate rather than resolving greviances. The quote is suggesting people reject the teachings by Jesus (including the Lord's Prayer) specifically in regard to people that historically wronged them but have repented for their sins. This is because the author is appalled that they may share heaven with those other people. If Heaven is restricted to only those who have never needed to be sorry for their sins, it will be empty.

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Reply #38 posted 03/21/21 9:04pm

uPtoWnNY

Mr. Ford clearly states;

"To be clear, I am not against christianity, and for the most part, I have done my best to stay away from christian-bashing in this book because it's not about beating up on the religion or its followers, but shedding light on the fact that this religion does not work to the benefit of black people, and never will............my goal is simply to show you the ways in which christianity is and has been hurting you - and, more importantly, how it has caused more harm than good in our push for Black Liberation and Black Power".

....and he goes on to explain why. It's similar to what I've read and heard from other black folks who were fed up and finally made the decision to 'walk away'. We will always be in the minority, but that's ok.

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Reply #39 posted 03/21/21 10:44pm

IanRG

uPtoWnNY said:

Mr. Ford clearly states;

"To be clear, I am not against christianity, and for the most part, I have done my best to stay away from christian-bashing in this book because it's not about beating up on the religion or its followers, but shedding light on the fact that this religion does not work to the benefit of black people, and never will............my goal is simply to show you the ways in which christianity is and has been hurting you - and, more importantly, how it has caused more harm than good in our push for Black Liberation and Black Power".

....and he goes on to explain why. It's similar to what I've read and heard from other black folks who were fed up and finally made the decision to 'walk away'. We will always be in the minority, but that's ok.

.

You see what he says here - "for the most part". The corollary of this is he knows that he is, in some ways, Christian-bashing.

.

His stated objective is what makes this partial and questionable defensive assertion necessary.

.

There are two sides to any belief - that you believe the belief is correct and the politics/power in how the belief is used by others. When Ford is telling people what they should believe because of the politics/power, he is arrogantly seeking to get them to join him in his belief that their belief is not correct. This is putting politics and power before beliefs and facts.

.

This does not mean he is entirely at fault - When the acts of people in religious organisations cause others to feel as Ford thinks, these acts will often be the greater sin. However, it also may not absolve him - If God exists as Christians believe, then his evangelisation of his beliefs is costing people their soul, all for a earthly political power motive.

.

I have not read this book but I have read many others that show that Christianity works best when it is keeps out of politics and power and fights for social justice and civil rights. The US civil rights movement would not have got where it has without this support from those in the Church.

[Edited 3/22/21 11:45am]

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Reply #40 posted 03/22/21 8:25am

2freaky4church
1

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"I’d ask you to do some serious soul searching if I believed that you had one!"

That was funny lust.

The Bible was written when there was tribal warefare rampant. People were killing, raping, everything. There is a complex morality.

Moses talks God out of killing the Israelites for worshipping the golden calf. How odd. People wrote about what they saw. Every branch breakiing was God's wrath. The law became grace became love for neighbor. The main theme is evi systems oppressing the poor. And the Israelites pissing God off. Moses strikes a rock with anger and cannot see the promised land. In the end the Bible is the most moral book ever.

Love rules in the end. Beat that lust pup.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #41 posted 03/22/21 1:03pm

lust

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

"I’d ask you to do some serious soul searching if I believed that you had one!"



That was funny lust.



The Bible was written when there was tribal warefare rampant. People were killing, raping, everything. There is a complex morality.



Moses talks God out of killing the Israelites for worshipping the golden calf. How odd. People wrote about what they saw. Every branch breakiing was God's wrath. The law became grace became love for neighbor. The main theme is evi systems oppressing the poor. And the Israelites pissing God off. Moses strikes a rock with anger and cannot see the promised land. In the end the Bible is the most moral book ever.



Love rules in the end. Beat that lust pup.




“The bible is the most moral book ever” 😂

You sound like Trump defending claims that he’s racist.

No Only, it’s really not the most moral book ever. For one thing it commands (to quote YOU) that the male child victims of rape should be put to death. And you applaud this “morality”. Can’t get much more evil than that. But yeah, at least you’re consistent. Last week you were downplaying the Holocaust and making sick jokes about Anne Frank.

You could probably benefit from some secular therapy there fella
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #42 posted 03/22/21 11:33pm

Graycap23

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I'd suggest all people with more than 2 brain cells 2 get some Enil & Enki in their life and leave fairly tales along altogether.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #43 posted 03/23/21 7:08am

jaawwnn

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Who or what is Enil & Enki?

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #44 posted 03/23/21 7:21am

EmmaMcG

avatar

jaawwnn said:

Who or what is Enil & Enki?



I think he means "Enlil" and Enki. Gods of wind and water. You know, bullshit.
[Edited 3/23/21 7:23am]
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Reply #45 posted 03/23/21 7:23am

jaawwnn

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

jaawwnn said:

Who or what is Enil & Enki?

I think he means "Enlil" and Enki. Gods of wind and water. You know, bullshit. [Edited 3/23/21 7:23am]


Like, weird mesopotamian shit that is so far back in history that we have lost every little bit of context and can pretty much interpret it in any way we like?

Yeah i'm in cool



[Edited 3/23/21 7:24am]

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #46 posted 03/23/21 7:25am

EmmaMcG

avatar

jaawwnn said:



EmmaMcG said:


jaawwnn said:

Who or what is Enil & Enki?



I think he means "Enlil" and Enki. Gods of wind and water. You know, bullshit. [Edited 3/23/21 7:23am]



Like, weird mesopotamian shit that is so far back in history that we have lost every little bit of context and can pretty much interpret it in any way we like?

Yeah i'm in cool



[Edited 3/23/21 7:24am]



lol
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Reply #47 posted 03/23/21 8:15am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

I always thought it was an individuals choice... Black folk have always chose since I was alive, Christianity, NOI, 5%ers, agnostic, atheist, Yoruba, Egyptology, Rastafarian, Buddist, Wiccan etc



It is also Okay to let go of the Democratic party #WalkWay

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
That's what U want, TRANSCENDENCE. When that happens, O Boy -Prince 2015
https://www.youtube.com/w...nm2Qq6QTFs
#IDEFINEME
https://www.youtube.com/w...XfF2cimj7I
Never No Time To Play...
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Reply #48 posted 03/23/21 10:00am

Graycap23

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I've lost all interest in ignorance.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #49 posted 03/23/21 10:13am

onlyforaminute

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A long time ago around here there were discussions about people following the religion of their ancestry. One guy was into the Norse religions with odin and so forth. I'm a bit amazed that these years later there's seems to be this surge of people who are doing just that. Now I'm seeing the most prominent West African religion surge even to the point of making it's way into mainstream media. I'm fascinated by it actually and to see how fragments of it have remained alive within black Americans culture despite being so separated from it.
Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #50 posted 03/23/21 11:07am

jaawwnn

avatar

Graycap23 said:

I've lost all interest in ignorance.

So anyway, who or what is Enil & Enki? It's not a religion or type of spirituality i've come across before. Googling only comes up with Mesopotamian myths and maybe something to do with aliens (???), what's the deal?


[Edited 3/23/21 11:07am]

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #51 posted 03/23/21 12:37pm

Graycap23

avatar

jaawwnn said:

Graycap23 said:

I've lost all interest in ignorance.

So anyway, who or what is Enil & Enki? It's not a religion or type of spirituality i've come across before. Googling only comes up with Mesopotamian myths and maybe something to do with aliens (???), what's the deal?


[Edited 3/23/21 11:07am]

Unlike myths with no tangible history, The Summarian history is here for all 2 see.

Texts and artifacts, NOT made up nonsense. If u are interested in facts, here is a good start.

Do any of these artifacts look like myths?

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/sumerian-artifacts?phrase=sumerian%20artifacts&sort=best

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_literature

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #52 posted 03/23/21 1:16pm

IanRG

Graycap23 said:

jaawwnn said:

So anyway, who or what is Enil & Enki? It's not a religion or type of spirituality i've come across before. Googling only comes up with Mesopotamian myths and maybe something to do with aliens (???), what's the deal?


[Edited 3/23/21 11:07am]

Unlike myths with no tangible history, The Summarian history is here for all 2 see.

Texts and artifacts, NOT made up nonsense. If u are interested in facts, here is a good start.

Do any of these artifacts look like myths?

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/sumerian-artifacts?phrase=sumerian%20artifacts&sort=best

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_literature

.

That the Summerians existed and left artifacts does not mean that they did not have myths.

.

Nothing in a set of archeological photos and a Wikipedia list of Summerian stories and myths shows why you believe that Enlil and Enki is fact and all other myths are nonsense.

.

Back to the topic: This book appears to be nothing more than the athiest equivalent of all those far right commentators attacking the block of Black Americans who vote Democrat because those commentators have different beliefs and they think others should follow their's instead. And yet the OP complains about others evangelising their beliefs.

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Reply #53 posted 03/23/21 3:13pm

Graycap23

avatar

IanRG said:

Graycap23 said:

Unlike myths with no tangible history, The Summarian history is here for all 2 see.

Texts and artifacts, NOT made up nonsense. If u are interested in facts, here is a good start.

Do any of these artifacts look like myths?

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/sumerian-artifacts?phrase=sumerian%20artifacts&sort=best

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_literature

.

That the Summerians existed and left artifacts does not mean that they did not have myths.

.

Nothing in a set of archeological photos and a Wikipedia list of Summerian stories and myths shows why you believe that Enlil and Enki is fact and all other myths are nonsense.

.

Back to the topic: This book appears to be nothing more than the athiest equivalent of all those far right commentators attacking the block of Black Americans who vote Democrat because those commentators have different beliefs and they think others should follow their's instead. And yet the OP complains about others evangelising their beliefs.

Spoken like someone well educated on the subject.

Got it.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #54 posted 03/23/21 7:21pm

IanRG

Graycap23 said:

IanRG said:

.

That the Sumerians existed and left artifacts does not mean that they did not have myths.

.

Nothing in a set of archeological photos and a Wikipedia list of Summerian stories and myths shows why you believe that Enlil and Enki is fact and all other myths are nonsense.

.

Back to the topic: This book appears to be nothing more than the athiest equivalent of all those far right commentators attacking the block of Black Americans who vote Democrat because those commentators have different beliefs and they think others should follow their's instead. And yet the OP complains about others evangelising their beliefs.

Spoken like someone well educated on the subject.

Got it.

.

Good.

.

It is important in seeking to understand ancient history that they all had myths and there is a LOT we don't know. To imagine that there were no myths in Sumeria in regard to Enlil and Enki is simply uneducated, as is seeking to promote the belief that their history is all "here to see".

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Reply #55 posted 03/23/21 10:05pm

Graycap23

avatar

4 the folks interested in learning some important history with actual documentation.

Look into the 100's of texts left by the Summarians.

Don't listen 2 folks when don't know shit about the subject.

Look into it 4 yourself.

[Edited 3/23/21 22:23pm]

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #56 posted 03/23/21 10:30pm

IanRG

Graycap23 said:

4 the folks interested in learning some important history with actual documentation.

Look into the 100's of texts left by the Summarians.

Don't listen 2 folks when don't know shit about the subject.

Look into it 4 yourself.

[Edited 3/23/21 22:23pm]

.

I have looked into it. Have you?

.

The list you linked us to even specifically called the second one a myth. Further down several of them were about the mythological hero Gilgamesh (loosely based on a potentially real person).

.

I agree that I will not listen to people who keep on demonstating that they don't know shit about even the links they provided as "proof" that the Sumerians don't have myths just facts.

.

Again, you have a lot to learn about history, especially ancient history.

.

PS What has this got to do with the topic?

[Edited 3/23/21 22:45pm]

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Reply #57 posted 03/23/21 11:19pm

Graycap23

avatar

IanRG said:

Graycap23 said:

4 the folks interested in learning some important history with actual documentation.

Look into the 100's of texts left by the Summarians.

Don't listen 2 folks when don't know shit about the subject.

Look into it 4 yourself.

[Edited 3/23/21 22:23pm]

.

I have looked into it. Have you?

.

The list you linked us to even specifically called the second one a myth. Further down several of them were about the mythological hero Gilgamesh (loosely based on a potentially real person).

.

I agree that I will not listen to people who keep on demonstating that they don't know shit about even the links they provided as "proof" that the Sumerians don't have myths just facts.

.

Again, you have a lot to learn about history, especially ancient history.

.

PS What has this got to do with the topic?

[Edited 3/23/21 22:45pm]

Lol.......the link I gave was a simple link 2 give people who are interested an intro into the topic.

Nothing more. If u want 2 continue going back and 4th have at it.

I have zero interest in going back and 4th with u.

[Edited 3/23/21 23:23pm]

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #58 posted 03/23/21 11:37pm

IanRG

Graycap23 said:

IanRG said:

.

I have looked into it. Have you?

.

The list you linked us to even specifically called the second one a myth. Further down several of them were about the mythological hero Gilgamesh (loosely based on a potentially real person).

.

I agree that I will not listen to people who keep on demonstating that they don't know shit about even the links they provided as "proof" that the Sumerians don't have myths just facts.

.

Again, you have a lot to learn about history, especially ancient history.

.

PS What has this got to do with the topic?

[Edited 3/23/21 22:45pm]

Lol.......the link I gave was a simple link 2 give people who are interested an intro into the topic.

Nothing more. If u want 2 continue going back and 4th have at it.

I have zero interest in going back and 4th with u.

[Edited 3/23/21 23:23pm]

.

There was no back and forth from me, just as there was no good reason for you to disparage people just because you were unable to support your claim.

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We don't need an introduction to the topic to know that the Sumerians had myths. Even if we did, your links verified that the Sumerians had myths.

.

As this has nothing at all to do with the topic, I am very happy to move on back to the topic.

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Reply #59 posted 03/24/21 12:07am

Graycap23

avatar

IanRG said:

Graycap23 said:

Lol.......the link I gave was a simple link 2 give people who are interested an intro into the topic.

Nothing more. If u want 2 continue going back and 4th have at it.

I have zero interest in going back and 4th with u.

[Edited 3/23/21 23:23pm]

.

There was no back and forth from me, just as there was no good reason for you to disparage people just because you were unable to support your claim.

.

We don't need an introduction to the topic to know that the Sumerians had myths. Even if we did, your links verified that the Sumerians had myths.

.

As this has nothing at all to do with the topic, I am very happy to move on back to the topic.

WTF are u talking about?

I don't know if they had myths or not, I wasn't around 1,000's of years ago.

That was NOT the point of bring up the Summarians.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Forums > Politics & Religion > It's Okay to Let Go: Why It's Time for Blacks to Walk Away from Christianity