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Thread started 12/07/20 6:55am

OldFriends4Sal
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Gender... is it real (and other trans gendered issues)

Civility, respect and tolerance must be maintained at all times. Disagree if you wish, but do not attack other individuals on the basis of their beliefs.

.

.

Transgender specific topic: Transgendered people in s...sues pt II
Transgendered people in s...rince.org)
.

So I've been seeing/reading things where people are questioning Gender and others saying it's a construction. I suspect some of this is in connection with Trans awareness. Which is questionable to many as well. What do you think? Is Gender a social construction?

712fOgdAgYL.jpg

Civility, respect and tolerance must be maintained at all times.
Disagree if you wish, but do not attack other individuals on the basis of their beliefs.
Any deletion of combative, bigoted or insensitive comments should not be construed as denial of your individual right to air your own opinion ; Above all: KEEP IT FRIENDLY!

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Reply #1 posted 12/07/20 7:01am

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https://reason.com/podcas...of-gender/


Debra Soh: The End of Gender

A controversial new book aims to debunk "the myths about sex and identity in our society."

Nick Gillespie | 8.19.2020 6:36 PM

The Toronto-based sex researcher's new book is subtitled "debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society" and she tells Nick Gillespie that scientific rigor is being tossed aside in the name of political activism when it comes to talking about gender differences and flashpoint issues such as allowing pre-pubescent children to transition sexually. Unapologetically "sex-positive" and in favor of letting consenting adults do whatever they want with their bodies, Soh worries that a new form of science denialism mostly on the left will ultimately undermine all sorts of social progress.

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Reply #2 posted 12/07/20 7:20am

2freaky4church
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Gender is a social construct.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #3 posted 12/07/20 7:35am

OldFriends4Sal
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2freaky4church1 said:

Gender is a social construct.

Are you talking about societal roles applied to genders or animal/biological gender?
.


"I have absolutely no idea, why anyone thinks why there are 71 genders
Let me get one thing out of the way, gender is binary and it is not a social construct

And that should really be the end of my talk today"

.

Debra Soh: Science doesn't back up 'Gender is a social construct' - YouTube
https://youtu.be/4BSb92OYA0g



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Reply #4 posted 12/07/20 7:47am

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Debra W. Soh is a Canadian science columnist, author, political commentator, and former academic sex researcher.

Soh holds a Doctor of Philosophy degree in psychology from York University in Toronto.
Her dissertation was titled Functional and Structural Neuroimaging of Paraphilic Hypersexuality in Men, and her committee included Keith Schneider of York University and James Cantor of the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health.
During her graduate studies, Soh received the Michael Smith Foreign Research Award from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada and York's Provost Dissertation Scholarship.

While at York, she studied paraphilias, which are abnormal sexual preferences.
Her research indicates that these are neurological conditions rather than learned behaviours.

Career

Soh has written articles for Quillette, The Globe and Mail, New York magazine, Playboy, Los Angeles Times, and The Wall Street Journal. She began hosting Quillette's Wrongspeak podcast with Jonathan Kay in May 2018. Soh describes herself as a former feminist who later became disillusioned with the term.

In a 2015 editorial, Soh criticized the prevalence of childhood gender transitions, advising parents and doctors to wait "until a child has reached cognitive maturity." Soh's essay, which referenced gender non-conforming aspects of her own childhood, argued that "a social transition back to one's original gender role can be an emotionally difficult experience." David A. French characterized this as "an understatement." Soh has also written against anti-conversion therapy laws that include both sexual orientation and gender identity, believing that such laws conflate the two and prevent legitimate therapeutic counselling for individuals with gender dysphoria. She believes that the current societal view to allow for gender transition in childhood is mostly based on homophobia due to studies which show that many transgender children will desist and detransition in adolescence and early adulthood and come out as gay or lesbian. Fellow Canadian academics Florence Ashley and Alexandre Baril disputed Soh's interpretation of these studies.

Soh opposed the 2015 decision to close Toronto's gender identity clinic, which was known for beginning treatment after or during puberty in most cases. A previous inquiry had put the clinic's chief physician, Kenneth Zucker, at odds with other gender dysphoria specialists who encourage social transitions at ages as young as three. Critics of Soh on this matter have stated that hormones are prescribed after puberty according to the Endocrine Society guidelines

...

On 4 August 2020, Soh published her first book, The End of Gender: Debunking the Myths about Sex and Identity in Our Society.[

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Reply #5 posted 12/07/20 8:06am

SantanaMaitrey
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The old nature vs nurture debate with some people going so far to the "nurture" side that they even want to deny that men and women exist. shrug
[Edited 12/7/20 8:08am]
O tempora! O mores!
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Reply #6 posted 12/07/20 8:42am

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SNIP - of4$
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Reply #7 posted 12/07/20 8:56am

jaawwnn

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I think I haven't nearly done enough reading about this highly technical and highly emotive subject. The recent interview with Judith Butleris worth a read if you're interested in some of the compexities, whether you agree with them or not:

https://www.newstatesman....ual-times

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Reply #8 posted 12/07/20 9:12am

jaawwnn

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It's an area i'd be afraid of saying anything out loud about, I just try and support people who are trans and hope the mob doesn't come for me.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #9 posted 12/07/20 11:04am

2freaky4church
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"I'm not your woman, I'm not your man, I am something that u cannot comprehend."

Beat that.

Camille Paglia said she was always Non Binary.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #10 posted 12/07/20 11:09am

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https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/09/ce-corner-glossary

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #11 posted 12/07/20 12:46pm

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2freaky4church1 said:

"I'm not your woman, I'm not your man, I am something that u cannot comprehend."

Beat that.

Camille Paglia said she was always Non Binary.

lol that has nothing to do with gender.

Camille Paglia also said the Erection is violent

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Reply #12 posted 12/07/20 12:50pm

SantanaMaitrey
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jaawwnn said:

It's an area i'd be afraid of saying anything out loud about, I just try and support people who are trans and hope the mob doesn't come for me.


If you are afraid of saying something out loud and if you fear a mob coming for you, then we have a problem.
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Reply #13 posted 12/07/20 1:07pm

EmmaMcG

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SantanaMaitreya said:

jaawwnn said:

It's an area i'd be afraid of saying anything out loud about, I just try and support people who are trans and hope the mob doesn't come for me.


If you are afraid of saying something out loud and if you fear a mob coming for you, then we have a problem.


SNIP - of4$ follow the rules: Under no circumstance attempt to start a 'debate' about specific moderation decisions in a public forum.

So just to reiterate, yes, gender does exist. In humans and the vast majority of other species, there are two genders. Male and female.
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Reply #14 posted 12/07/20 2:44pm

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I think Gender is fluid. If no one is 100% Black, Caucasian, Native American, German, or whatever (thanks to the proliferation of DNA tests), then how is Gender binary or singular to the individual?

I think anyone who says otherwise is afriad of change. Doesn't mean they have to suddenly identify as something else, but who the fuck is anyone to tell someone else who or what they are?! It makes me think of the one-drop rule of the south when it came to identifying Black people. White supremacy set up a rigid system to all but exterminate non-White people. Sound familiar? The Germans were fascinated with the American south and took huge leads from them when forming what would become the ethnic cleansing of WWII).

I digress. Gender is up to the person. Personally, I'm a cis man. I just call myself male, he, him, etc. I'm sorta born into the gender I already identify with. Male. Others are different. How boring it would be if everything were eternally so black and white.

Someone once said, Sexuality is who you go to bed with, Gender is who you wake up as.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #15 posted 12/07/20 3:10pm

EmmaMcG

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TrivialPursuit said:

I think Gender is fluid. If no one is 100% Black, Caucasian, Native American, German, or whatever (thanks to the proliferation of DNA tests), then how is Gender binary or singular to the individual?

I think anyone who says otherwise is afriad of change. Doesn't mean they have to suddenly identify as something else, but who the fuck is anyone to tell someone else who or what they are?! It makes me think of the one-drop rule of the south when it came to identifying Black people. White supremacy set up a rigid system to all but exterminate non-White people. Sound familiar? The Germans were fascinated with the American south and took huge leads from them when forming what would become the ethnic cleansing of WWII).

I digress. Gender is up to the person. Personally, I'm a cis man. I just call myself male, he, him, etc. I'm sorta born into the gender I already identify with. Male. Others are different. How boring it would be if everything were eternally so black and white.

Someone once said, Sexuality is who you go to bed with, Gender is who you wake up as.



You can't really compare race to gender. There are many different races but in the animal kingdom, there is typically only two genders. And we, as humans, are just another species of animal. We're not special. We don't get extra genders just because we're top of the food chain. Science doesn't work like that. There is male and there is female. That's it.

However, that's not to denigrate trans people. Unlike a lot of people who share my viewpoint on the number of genders there are, I don't believe that there is anything "wrong" with trans people. If you're a man who chooses to live as a woman or vice versa, then more power to you. I fully support anyone who feels they were "born in the wrong body" and now chooses to live in a way they feel more true to themselves.
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Reply #16 posted 12/07/20 3:52pm

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TrivialPursuit said:

I think Gender is fluid. If no one is 100% Black, Caucasian, Native American, German, or whatever (thanks to the proliferation of DNA tests), then how is Gender binary or singular to the individual?

I think anyone who says otherwise is afriad of change. Doesn't mean they have to suddenly identify as something else, but who the fuck is anyone to tell someone else who or what they are?! It makes me think of the one-drop rule of the south when it came to identifying Black people. White supremacy set up a rigid system to all but exterminate non-White people. Sound familiar? The Germans were fascinated with the American south and took huge leads from them when forming what would become the ethnic cleansing of WWII).

I digress. Gender is up to the person. Personally, I'm a cis man. I just call myself male, he, him, etc. I'm sorta born into the gender I already identify with. Male. Others are different. How boring it would be if everything were eternally so black and white.

Someone once said, Sexuality is who you go to bed with, Gender is who you wake up as.

Black is a social political construct. Like White Red Yellow Brown. There is only 1 human race.
If there were more that would be Aerial humans, Aquatic Humans, Subterranean Humans, etc

.

Ethnicity is just a product of environments. There is no 1 'black' or 'African' race. Africa has about 100 different ethnic variations. The same with Europe, the Middle East, Caucasus area, Asia, S and N America, Australia and the various islands etc And who knows if humans existed on Antartica before if drifted there. There are still large populations of humans that are mono-ethnic. Everyone isn't 'mixed'. I watched an episode of Geneology Roadshow and an 'Irish' American married to an African American woman, just knew he had some black in him. They did the dna test on both of them. He was 100% Irish and she was 100% of African ethnicity(but of mixed African ethnicity).

.

In the animal kingdom and Mammals more specifically, which humans are connected., there are only 2 genders.

Gender and sexual orientation Homosexual Bisexual Heterosexual are biological and natural.

I know as humans we can go to the moon and talk to each other via cell phones and face chat etc but the reality is the human race just like lions and tigers and bears, breed, are born, eat, sleep and die. We color up our existance. But without the basics nothing will exist.

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Reply #17 posted 12/07/20 4:10pm

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Do we really need this? As a human species, do we need labels for what attracts us? In such natural basic ways?

A list of genders & s...eebly.com)

SEXUALITY

Romantic Orientation- Who you are romantically attracted to meaning wanting to be in a romantic relationship with and is unrelated to sexual attraction.
Sexual Orientation- Who you are sexually attracted to meaning who you get turned on by or who you would want to engage in sexual behaviors with.


*note all listed below are applicable also to romantic orientations. These take the prefix of the word and the ending -romantic, i.e. heteroromantic, panromantic, aromantic.


Heterosexual- The attraction to a gender different from their own (commonly used to describe someone who is gender binary [female or male] attracted to the other binary gender).
Homosexual- The attraction to a gender the same as their own (commonly used to describe someone who is gender binary [female or male] attracted to the same binary gender). Sometimess referred to as gay.
Lesbian- Women who are attracted only to other women
Bisexual- When you are attracted to two or more genders. This term is generally used to describe being attracted to men and women, but can apply to being attracted to any two or more genders. Note that you do not have to be equally attracted to each gender.
Pansexual- When you are attracted to all genders and/or do not concern gender when you are attracted towards someone
Bicurious- People who are open to experiment with genders that are not only their own, but do not know if they are open to forming any sort of relationship with multiple genders.
Polysexual- When you are attracted to many genders

Monosexual- Being attracted to only one gender
Allosexual- When you are not asexual (attracted to at least one gender)
Androsexual- Being attracted to masculine gender presentation
Gynosexual- Being attracted to feminine gender presentation
Questioning- People who are debating their own sexuality/gender
Asexual- Not experiencing sexual attraction (note that you can also be aromantic and you do not necessarily have to be asexual and aromantic at the same time). Sometimes the term, ace, is used to describe asexuals.

Demisexual- When you only experience sexual attraction after forming a strong emotional bond first or a romantic bond
Grey Asexual- When you only experience attraction rarely, on a very low scale, or only under certain circumstances
Perioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientation targets the same gender (for example being heteromantic and heterosexual or being biromantic and bisexual)
Varioriented- When your sexual and romantic orientations do not target the same set of genders (for example being heteromantic and bisexual or being homoromantic and pansexual)
Heteronormative- The belief that hetersexuality is the norm and that sex, gender, sexuality, and gender roles all align
Erasure- Ignoring the existance of genders and sexualities in the middle of the spectrum
Cishet- Someone who is both cisgendered and heterosexual. This is sometimes used as a slur.
Polyamorous- An umbrella term referring to people who have or are open to have consensually have relationships with multiple people at the same time
Monoamorous- People who have or or open to have relationships with only one other person at a time. The term, monogamous, is also sometimes used.
Queer- A reclaimed slur for anybody in the LGBT+ community or who do not identify as cisgender and/or hetersexual/heteromantic
Ally- A supporter of the LGBT+ community that does not identify as LGBT+

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Reply #18 posted 12/07/20 4:12pm

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Male to Female (MtF)- When somebody that is assigned as a male at birth identifies as a female
Female to Male (FtM)- When somebody that is assigned as a female at birth identifies as a male
Binary- The genders at each end of the gender spectrum (male and female)
Non-Binary- An umbrella term for genders that fall somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum and are neither strictly male or female. This can be used as a gender identification without further explanation. Sometimes the term, genderqueer, is used.
Genderfluid- Moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity
Agender- Not identifying with any gender. Sometimes referred to as being genderless or gendervoid
Bigender- Identifying as two genders, commonly (but not exclusively) male and female. Sometimes you feel like both genders at the same time and sometimes you fluctuate.
Polygender- When you identify with multiple genders at once. Sometimes referred to as multigender.
Neutrois- When you identify as agender, neither male nor female, and/or genderless
Gender Apathetic- When you really do not identify nor care about any particular gender. You are fine passing off as whatever and you really do not have an opinion towards your own gender.
Androgyne- This term overlaps a lot between gender identification and presentation. It can be used to describe others and as an identification. This term is used to describe people who are neither male nor female or are both male and female. Basically anyone who does not fit into a binary gender category.
Intergender- Somebody who's gender is somewhere between male and female
Demigender- When you feel as if you are one part a defined gender and one or more parts an undefined gender. Terms can include demigirl, demiboy, demiagender, ect.
Greygender- Somebody with a weak gender identification of themselves
Aporagender- Somebody with a strong gender identification of themselves that is non-binary
Maverique- A non-binary gender that exists outside of the orthodox social bounds of gender
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term
Designated gender- A gender assigned at birth based on an individuals sex and/or what gender society percieves a person to be
AFAB- Assigned Female At Birth
AMAB- Assigned Male At Birth
Gender roles- Certain behaviors an activities expected/considered acceptable of people in a particular society based upon their designated gender
Gender Presentation- The gender you present yourself to others. This is sometimes referred to as gender expression
Transitioning- The process of using medical means to change your sex
Intersex- A biological difference in sex that is when people are born with genitals, gonads, and/or chromosomes that do not match up exactly with male or female. Intersex individuals can have any romantic/sexual orientation and can have any gender identification. Intersex individuals are about as common as redheads.
Dyadic- Someone who is not intersex and when their gentinals, gonads, and chromosomes can all match into either a male or female category
Trans Woman- Someone who is assigned as a male at birth, but identifies as a woman
Trans Man- Someone who is assigned as a female at birth, but identifies as a man
Trans Feminine- Someone who identifies as feminine, but identifies as neither a man nor a woman. They must also be assigned male at birth.
Trans Masculine- Someone who identifies as masculine, but identifies as neither a man nor a woman. They must also be assigned female at birth.
Social Dysphoria- Discomfort experienced when acting in ways socially different than your gender or being addressed in ways different to your gender
Body Dysphoria- Discomfort experienced because of the difference between gender and your sex, role, or gender expression
Butch- A term used to describe someone who's gender expression is more masculine than feminine. This is commonly used in describing women or lesbians.
Femme (Fem)- A term used to describe someone who's gender expression is more feminine than masculine. This is commonly used in describing women or lesbians.
Binarism- Putting gender strictly into two categories (male and female) and refusing to acknowledge genders outside of male and female.

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Reply #19 posted 12/08/20 7:48am

jaawwnn

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SantanaMaitreya said:

jaawwnn said:

It's an area i'd be afraid of saying anything out loud about, I just try and support people who are trans and hope the mob doesn't come for me.

If you are afraid of saying something out loud and if you fear a mob coming for you, then we have a problem.

Yes, I would say there is a problem with the debate at the moment. I don't have a solution though.



EmmaMcG said:


You can't really compare race to gender. There are many different races but in the animal kingdom, there is typically only two genders. And we, as humans, are just another species of animal. We're not special. We don't get extra genders just because we're top of the food chain. Science doesn't work like that. There is male and there is female. That's it. However, that's not to denigrate trans people. Unlike a lot of people who share my viewpoint on the number of genders there are, I don't believe that there is anything "wrong" with trans people. If you're a man who chooses to live as a woman or vice versa, then more power to you. I fully support anyone who feels they were "born in the wrong body" and now chooses to live in a way they feel more true to themselves.

I see the gender understander has logged in.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #20 posted 12/08/20 7:54am

jaawwnn

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As for the animal kingdom, are there any genders? Do they recognise any? Certainly there are many examples of intersex creatures and animals that change sex. I wouldn't be so quick so say that there are always two genders amongst animals. You'd for starters want to be very specific in what language you're using or you'll quicky trip yourself up.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #21 posted 12/08/20 8:36am

EmmaMcG

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jaawwnn said:

As for the animal kingdom, are there any genders? Do they recognise any? Certainly there are many examples of intersex creatures and animals that change sex. I wouldn't be so quick so say that there are always two genders amongst animals. You'd for starters want to be very specific in what language you're using or you'll quicky trip yourself up.



I never said there are "always" two genders amongst animals. I said there are "typically" two genders. Obviously there are creatures like clownfish for example that can change. But they are in the minority. Most animals, humans included, generally are born either male or female and don't naturally change gender.

So, I actually pre-emptively took your advice of choosing my words carefully. Had you actually read what I'd written carefully, you wouldn't have tripped yourself up lol
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Reply #22 posted 12/08/20 8:58am

jaawwnn

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Very good, I apologise for making it seem like my second post was directed at you Emma, I was primarily responding to oldfriends who said "In the animal kingdom and Mammals more specifically, which humans are connected., there are only 2 genders."

[Edited 12/8/20 9:02am]

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Reply #23 posted 12/08/20 9:28am

EmmaMcG

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jaawwnn said:

Very good, I apologise for making it seem like my second post was directed at you Emma, I was primarily responding to oldfriends who said "In the animal kingdom and Mammals more specifically, which humans are connected., there are only 2 genders."

[Edited 12/8/20 9:02am]



Ah no worries razz

I was only messing with you anyway. Having a bit of fun with my fellow Dub, LOL.
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Reply #24 posted 12/08/20 9:32am

rednblue

As people undoubtedly know 1) sex assigned at birth 2) gender and 3) sexuality are three distinct things.

As folks probably also already know, human concepts of 3+ genders, and other "non-traditional" gender conceptions, have existed for generations in cultures around the world.

Here's just one person sharing thoughts and experience of this:

" I am enrolled in the Navajo Nation, yet I acknowledge my ancestors who are Zuni, Hopi, and Yavapai. My English pronouns they/them/theirs because I do not identify with being male or female. I do not use he/him/his or she/her/hers pronouns. My Diné ancestors would tell me that I am a nadlééh – a changing one."


https://dineaesthetics.co...-birthday/


https://dineaesthetics.co...anging-one/


fullsizeoutput_1-1170x550.jpeg?v=1571364176

[Edited 12/8/20 16:21pm]

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Reply #25 posted 12/08/20 10:18am

2freaky4church
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Natalie Wynn.

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Reply #26 posted 12/08/20 1:37pm

Margot

Gender, like sexuality exists on a continuum.

As a young nurse, I had to prepare a body for the morgue which entailed removing clothing. This is when I noticed the person was a hermaphrodite. I did not know about this @ the time and had to do a little researach.

Mother nature does not always produce a 'man' with a penis and testicles or a 'women' with a vagina etc. There are many physical variations as well as psychological/emotionall variations

We know very little about gender, but we do like to make snide comments in our ignorance.

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Reply #27 posted 12/08/20 1:39pm

rednblue

jaawwnn said:

I think I haven't nearly done enough reading about this highly technical and highly emotive subject. The recent interview with Judith Butleris worth a read if you're interested in some of the compexities, whether you agree with them or not:

https://www.newstatesman....ual-times


Saw this thread hours ago, but just now got the chance to read this Judith Butler interview that you linked. Thanks so much for it, jaawwnn!

"We depend on gender as a historical category, and that means we do not yet know all the ways it may come to signify, and we are open to new understandings of its social meanings. It would be a disaster for feminism to return either to a strictly biological understanding of gender or to reduce social conduct to a body part or to impose fearful fantasies, their own anxieties, on trans women... Their abiding and very real sense of gender ought to be recognised socially and publicly as a relatively simple matter of according another human dignity."

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Reply #28 posted 12/08/20 2:04pm

Margot

Prince alluded to some of these ideas; his symbol, some of his lyrics etc.

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Reply #29 posted 12/08/20 2:25pm

rednblue

Some thoughts from Jay Hulme on people telling transmen that they are not really men:

"...they see trans men as 'brainwashed victims of the patriarchy' - To transphobes, trans men are poor innocent deluded women. Being trans is something they see as fundamentally wrong, and thus we must have been coerced into it, somehow. We cannot possibly know our own minds, or be capable of living our lives on our own terms...."

"...much of the political and online transphobia at the moment is perpetrated by women under the guise of 'feminism', there is a sense that trans men are misguided allies, that we are mistaken, and simply need to be welcomed back into the fold, and into womanhood itself. This welcoming seems like a kindness. It is not, and needs to be called out for what it is - a form of conversion therapy."

"There is an idea, in transphobic circles, that trans men are all confused butch lesbians. How this works varies from circle to circle. Some think we are 'self-hating butch lesbians', who simply need to be reassured that it’s okay to be a butch lesbian (which, of course it is! Butch lesbians are amazing! It’s just not for me - because I’m a man), and that if we could 'accept' that we’re butch lesbians we would somehow 'revert' back to being a cis person. On the other hand, some think we “would have been butch lesbians” but were forced into being trans, either by our parents, our friends, or some mysterious transgender cabal (I don’t think I need to point out that this is a ludicrous idea - nobody is forcing cis people to become trans, this rhetoric is a ridiculous attempt at fearmongering using the exact blueprints of the historic Gay Scare).

The obvious problem with this idea is that gay trans men exist. So do bi trans men. Pan trans men. Ace trans men. And so on. And on. And on. Trans men are as wonderfully varied as cis men - and we’re certainly not all straight."

https://jayhulme.com/blog/transmen

[Edited 12/8/20 14:29pm]

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