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Reply #30 posted 10/08/20 12:36am

TweetyV6

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maplenpg said:



The reply button is making the formatting wrong again so apologise for this layout. The article you posted said, "Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. " That to me states that they should be staying indoors, even being advised against going to the shops. Of course, they could ignore the advisories, but the stress going out in and among a deadly virus runnimg throughout the country would be huge. So I call it imprisonment, you call it choice. Whatever.

And it hasn't worked near damn perfectly in Sweden, just as ignoring the rules hasn't worked near damn perfectly in the US. It's not about fear and panic, but about being sensible with the science and not overloading our hospitals (and if even the top epidemiologists can't agree and they have studied viruses all their lives, what hope have we got?).

Should and could are an advise and not mandatory. So each individual can decide for him/herself whether they want to go outside or not.

That's the core of their message: Make sure people get the best information and let them make their own decisions.

That's a hell more humane than complete lock down as France, Italy and Spain did wher ALL people were not allowed to leave their homes without written permission


Regarding Sweden, just look at these 2 graphs:

Daily New Covid-19 cases and Daily New Covid-19 Deaths

Their approach is, from the current point of view, the best!
Only thing they did wrong at first is a lack better protection in the elderly homes. That's what Germany managed perfectly and the Swedes have adopted.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #31 posted 10/08/20 1:20am

maplenpg

TweetyV6 said:

maplenpg said:



The reply button is making the formatting wrong again so apologise for this layout. The article you posted said, "Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. " That to me states that they should be staying indoors, even being advised against going to the shops. Of course, they could ignore the advisories, but the stress going out in and among a deadly virus runnimg throughout the country would be huge. So I call it imprisonment, you call it choice. Whatever.

And it hasn't worked near damn perfectly in Sweden, just as ignoring the rules hasn't worked near damn perfectly in the US. It's not about fear and panic, but about being sensible with the science and not overloading our hospitals (and if even the top epidemiologists can't agree and they have studied viruses all their lives, what hope have we got?).

Should and could are an advise and not mandatory. So each individual can decide for him/herself whether they want to go outside or not.

That's the core of their message: Make sure people get the best information and let them make their own decisions.

That's a hell more humane than complete lock down as France, Italy and Spain did wher ALL people were not allowed to leave their homes without written permission


Regarding Sweden, just look at these 2 graphs:

Daily New Covid-19 cases and Daily New Covid-19 Deaths

Their approach is, from the current point of view, the best!
Only thing they did wrong at first is a lack better protection in the elderly homes. That's what Germany managed perfectly and the Swedes have adopted.

Oops, Sweden doesn't look so great now, we change the graphs to suit our narrative:


Daily New Covid-19 cases and Daily New Covid-19 Deaths

FWIW I'm not a big fan of hard lockdowns. I wish our countries had taken the same approach that all the countries I put in the graph had taken. i.e. lockdown until figures become manageable, target individual cases, test, track, isolate positive cases. Sadly in the UK we decided that 1000+ cases a day was just dandy over summer, and we encouraged everyone to go out, go back to work (even if working at home was an option), grow the economy etc... We are now seeing the results of that and it is becoming unmanageable again.

Many countries around the world had much harsher border controls in place. Many have testing at airports, many have quarantine hotels at the airports. Many are managing the virus without hard lockdowns, just short sharp responses when they get even one case. That is what I would advocate. I would advocate mass testing, get the positive isolated and get the figures down to a manageable level. Sadly, we're stuck before we start because we don't have the capacity to mass test.



Also FWIW the rules are being largely ignored in the UK anyway, the media are pushing your approach. The government have lost control (though for the first time I have agreed with them a few times lately) and so I guess we'll be finding out if it works or not.


This answers many of the reasons why I don't think your approach works. https://www.mpg.de/154261...9-epidemie

[Edited 10/8/20 1:32am]

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Reply #32 posted 10/08/20 2:07am

IanRG

maplenpg said:

TweetyV6 said:

Should and could are an advise and not mandatory. So each individual can decide for him/herself whether they want to go outside or not.

That's the core of their message: Make sure people get the best information and let them make their own decisions.

That's a hell more humane than complete lock down as France, Italy and Spain did wher ALL people were not allowed to leave their homes without written permission


Regarding Sweden, just look at these 2 graphs:

Daily New Covid-19 cases and Daily New Covid-19 Deaths

Their approach is, from the current point of view, the best!
Only thing they did wrong at first is a lack better protection in the elderly homes. That's what Germany managed perfectly and the Swedes have adopted.

Oops, Sweden doesn't look so great now, we change the graphs to suit our narrative:


Daily New Covid-19 cases and Daily New Covid-19 Deaths

FWIW I'm not a big fan of hard lockdowns. I wish our countries had taken the same approach that all the countries I put in the graph had taken. i.e. lockdown until figures become manageable, target individual cases, test, track, isolate positive cases. Sadly in the UK we decided that 1000+ cases a day was just dandy over summer, and we encouraged everyone to go out, go back to work (even if working at home was an option), grow the economy etc... We are now seeing the results of that and it is becoming unmanageable again.

Many countries around the world had much harsher border controls in place. Many have testing at airports, many have quarantine hotels at the airports. Many are managing the virus without hard lockdowns, just short sharp responses when they get even one case. That is what I would advocate. I would advocate mass testing, get the positive isolated and get the figures down to a manageable level. Sadly, we're stuck before we start because we don't have the capacity to mass test.



Also FWIW the rules are being largely ignored in the UK anyway, the media are pushing your approach. The government have lost control (though for the first time I have agreed with them a few times lately) and so I guess we'll be finding out if it works or not.


This answers many of the reasons why I don't think your approach works. https://www.mpg.de/154261...9-epidemie

[Edited 10/8/20 1:32am]

.

In regards to the near perfection of Sweden:

.

If the world was doing as badly as Sweden, there would have been 74.5 million known infections and a minimum of 4,537,000 deaths to date.The extrapolated deaths are possibly understated from what would occur if everyone so seriously stuffed up covid management, Sweden style. Sweden's testing is substandard, its track, trace and reporting is substandard. This is why the proportion of deaths of the infected population is more than twice the international average. Only places like Mexico, UK, Italy, Ecuador, Belgium, Sudan, Yemen, Chad, Fiji and Monserrat are doing worse - the last two being statistical anomolies with very low total infections (32 and 13) with 2 and 1 death respectively.

.

Even their attempt to not be as economically affected is failing: This year they will not be least affected European country in terms of reduced GDP and by their own figures, next year their recovery will be amongst the worst in Europe in terms of how many percentage points their GDP is forecast to be below their 2019 GDP.

[Edited 10/8/20 12:46pm]

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Reply #33 posted 10/08/20 4:46am

jaawwnn

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It's not worth the argument, every country is doing it's own thing and is reporting figures a different way. If a million die of Covid you'll immediately be informed that they died with Covid and were about to die anyway so it doesn't count and here's some lunatic on youtube with a six hour video backing this up.

Ireland is doing fine in terms of GDP, projecting growth despite huge unemployment and the total collapse of entire industries. What we need is protections for people so we can see this out together, what we don't need is spurious arguments that try and argue that growth forever is the only solution to every problem, whether it be mental health or housing. Capitalist realism indeed.

[Edited 10/8/20 4:47am]

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #34 posted 10/09/20 11:24am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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New Northern Ireland curbs likely to tackle 'grave' COVID-19 spread
36 mins ago

DUBLIN (Reuters) - The spread of COVID-19 in Northern Ireland is getting more grave by the hour and further restrictions will likely be imposed soon, the British-run region's health minister said on Friday after another daily record number of cases.

A rapid surge in infections over the past two weeks in the smallest of the United Kingdom's four nations means the rate of cases per 100,000 people since the start of the pandemic has now outstripped that of England, Scotland or Wales.

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Northern Ireland reported 1,080 new cases on Friday, 10 times the rate experienced a month ago to bring the seven-day rate per 100,000 people to 280.2, higher than the most European countries.

"The situation is grave and getting more so, on a daily if not hourly basis," Robin Swann said in a written statement to the regional parliament. The number of COVID-19 hospital inpatients would exceed numbers seen in first wave of the pandemic in two to three weeks if current trends continue unabated, he said.

"I am advised that further restrictions for Northern Ireland are likely to be required in the very near future" if cases keep going up, he said.

Northern Ireland's devolved government imposed tighter restrictions on household mixing last month and this week banned indoor dining, drinking and unnecessary travel to and from the hardest-hit area of Derry and Strabane.

...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/...ocid=ientp


#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #35 posted 10/22/20 6:00am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Spain and France both surpassed 1 million COVID-19 cases,
as Europe's outbreak continues to spirals
baker@businessinsider.com (Sinéad Baker) 1 hr ago
.
Spain and France are the first European countries to record more than a million coronavirus cases.Spain has now reported 1,005,295 cases, while France has recorded 1,000,369 cases, per Johns Hopkins University data.Europe's second wave of the outbreak is spiraling, with governments enforcing harsh restrictions in an attempt to slow the spread.Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.Spain and France became the first European countries to record more than one million coronavirus cases, as the continent's outbreak continues to spiral.
.
Spain became the first European country to reach the milestone on Wednesday, after it reported 16,973 new infections.

The new data brought its total confirmed cases to 1,005,295, according to figures shared by the BBC.

34,366 people have now died from the virus in the country, the seventh-highest death toll in the world, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University (JHU).

JHU data showed France becoming the second European country to pass one million cases, with 1,000,369 cases recorded as of Thursday morning.

34,075 people have now died in France, the eighth-highest number of deaths in the world.

...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/...ocid=ientp

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #36 posted 10/22/20 8:38am

2freaky4church
1

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Look towards Scananavia.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #37 posted 10/29/20 5:52am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Merkel warns Germans of a 'difficult winter' as virus surges
2 hrs ago

.

BERLIN (AP) — Chancellor Angela Merkel told Germans to expect a "difficult winter" as the number of newly reported coronavirus cases in the country hit a new high.
.
Merkel spoke Thursday in Parliament a day after she and the governors of Germany's 16 states agreed upon far-reaching restrictions to curb the spread of the virus, including the closure of bars and restaurants, limits on social contacts and bans on concerts and other public events.
.
Germany's disease control agency said local health authorities reported 16,774 new positive tests for COVID-19 in the past day, pushing the country's total since the start of the outbreak close to half a million. The Robert Koch Institute also recorded 89 additional deaths, taking the country's total to 10,272. That is still one-fourth the death toll in Britain.



http://www.msn.com/en-us/...ocid=ientp


#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #38 posted 10/31/20 8:07pm

onlyforaminute

Time keeps on slipping into the future...


This moment is all there is...
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Reply #39 posted 11/02/20 2:05am

Cloudbuster

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Reply #40 posted 11/02/20 11:05am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Anti-lockdown protests in Europe as COVID cases hit new records
By Jeremy Schultz, Reuters 4 hrs ago
.
A person rides a bicycle in front of a fire during a protest against the closure of bars and gyms, in Barcelona, Spain, October 30. REUTERS/Nacho Doce







A demonstrator throws a rock towards police officers during a protest against the closure of bars and gyms, in Barcelona, Spain, October 30. REUTERS/Nacho Doce


http://www.msn.com/en-us/...p#image=12


#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
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