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Reply #60 posted 09/06/20 12:02am

onlyforaminute

maplenpg said:



onlyforaminute said:


We could go back to ancient ways. Chop off body parts, branding and shunning. I guess in some ways we still do that. But realistically no functioning society doesn't have some form of a punishment system in place most are something that follows the individualfor life. Maybe they'll start microchiping behavior. Or try a drone system, imagine having a bee size drone following you and monitoring your behavior 24/7 all bathroom issues too, all connected to an AI system. Break the law and have the AI system dispense punishment based on the crime.

I don't think from reading up on this (and please bear in mind I'm still learning too, this is not something I'm 100% behind) that anyone is calling for there to be a change of punishment, or even reduced punishment. Moreover that if society could be enabled somewhat, then crime would naturally reduce, and therefore the need for prisons would reduce. I highly recommend the article Deebee posted.

Strangely (perhaps?), I don't know if you're so far out with the AI stuff. The electronic tags are allegedly notoriously easy to get around, so would a removeable microchip be something for the future? Who knows? I thought of Black Mirror when I read your post, was there an episode of bee drones, or am I imagining that (it's been a while since I saw them)?




Why not just admit we have no clue of all the various reasons why people commit crimes? Because we don't. There are a lot of very dangerous people walking around who get some kind of satisfaction in doing harm. And they have to be dealt with and their numbers are growing. Let's start there. Yes we don't have a fail proof system there's a bunch of corruption and a lot of people are being unnecessarily jailed for unnecessary stuff. Seems bizarre to me not to even acknowledge the tech minded solutions that are obviously on the horizon. Yes I used a concept from a show not black mirror but I guess along those lines. The minority report was jusst a show of course there's no magical triplets predicting crimes but we now have AI being used to predict crime in some places. Tech solutions are very much on the criminal justice systems minds. Seems ashame to not at least acknowledge the possibilities of what ways others are thinking to resolve these problems.

https://emerj.com/ai-sect...lications/

https://youtu.be/zAWDzROqlOg

August 11, 2020

Artificial intelligence examines best ways to keep parolees from recommitting crimes

https://www.purdue.edu/ne...rimes.html

Artificial intelligence will give researchers a window into the parolee’s daily life through bracelets that collect health information, including stress and heart rate.

Smart phones carried by each person also will collect information, ranging from where they are at any given time to the photos they may take. The artificial intelligence will be run in intervals with the data examined rather than real time.

Rogers said the information will be used to identify risky behaviors, stressful situations and other behavioral and physiological factors correlated with those individuals at risk of returning to their criminal behavior.

“The goal of the study is to identify opportunities for early intervention to better assist those individuals to integrate back into general society successfully,” he said.
[Edited 9/6/20 0:20am]
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Reply #61 posted 09/06/20 12:48am

maplenpg

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onlyforaminute said:

maplenpg said:

I don't think from reading up on this (and please bear in mind I'm still learning too, this is not something I'm 100% behind) that anyone is calling for there to be a change of punishment, or even reduced punishment. Moreover that if society could be enabled somewhat, then crime would naturally reduce, and therefore the need for prisons would reduce. I highly recommend the article Deebee posted.

Strangely (perhaps?), I don't know if you're so far out with the AI stuff. The electronic tags are allegedly notoriously easy to get around, so would a removeable microchip be something for the future? Who knows? I thought of Black Mirror when I read your post, was there an episode of bee drones, or am I imagining that (it's been a while since I saw them)?

Why not just admit we have no clue of all the various reasons why people commit crimes? Because we don't. There are a lot of very dangerous people walking around who get some kind of satisfaction in doing harm. And they have to be dealt with and their numbers are growing. Let's start there. Yes we don't have a fail proof system there's a bunch of corruption and a lot of people are being unnecessarily jailed for unnecessary stuff. Seems bizarre to me not to even acknowledge the tech minded solutions that are obviously on the horizon. Yes I used a concept from a show not black mirror but I guess along those lines. The minority report was jusst a show of course there's no magical triplets predicting crimes but we now have AI being used to predict crime in some places. Tech solutions are very much on the criminal justice systems minds. Seems ashame to not at least acknowledge the possibilities of what ways others are thinking to resolve these problems. https://emerj.com/ai-sect...lications/ https://youtu.be/zAWDzROqlOg August 11, 2020 Artificial intelligence examines best ways to keep parolees from recommitting crimes https://www.purdue.edu/ne...rimes.html Artificial intelligence will give researchers a window into the parolee’s daily life through bracelets that collect health information, including stress and heart rate. Smart phones carried by each person also will collect information, ranging from where they are at any given time to the photos they may take. The artificial intelligence will be run in intervals with the data examined rather than real time. Rogers said the information will be used to identify risky behaviors, stressful situations and other behavioral and physiological factors correlated with those individuals at risk of returning to their criminal behavior. “The goal of the study is to identify opportunities for early intervention to better assist those individuals to integrate back into general society successfully,” he said. [Edited 9/6/20 0:20am]

Thank you for the AI article, it's interesting, and certainly human parole observation is completey inadequate (overstreched and overworked, I know probation workers work exceptionally hard).

As for the bold, I'm not sure that we don't have any clue. Lots and lots of work goes into why people commit crime. The problem is how to stop it. At a low level addiction, poverty etc... etc... could have fairly easy success if we were willing to really put in the time, money and resources. Things like acts of terror are much more difficult. There was an interesting part in the YouTube video that Deebee posted which said that capitalism needs criminality to succeed (or something similar, I'm paraphrasing), that it needs good guys and bad guys. The more I saw in prisons, and have learned about since, the more I think people at the top need people to keep looking down for the criminals, for the common man, when actually the biggest criminals are the ones we need to be looking upward for. Until that changes then I don't believe anything will change.

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #62 posted 09/06/20 8:03pm

onlyforaminute

maplenpg said:



onlyforaminute said:


maplenpg said:


I don't think from reading up on this (and please bear in mind I'm still learning too, this is not something I'm 100% behind) that anyone is calling for there to be a change of punishment, or even reduced punishment. Moreover that if society could be enabled somewhat, then crime would naturally reduce, and therefore the need for prisons would reduce. I highly recommend the article Deebee posted.

Strangely (perhaps?), I don't know if you're so far out with the AI stuff. The electronic tags are allegedly notoriously easy to get around, so would a removeable microchip be something for the future? Who knows? I thought of Black Mirror when I read your post, was there an episode of bee drones, or am I imagining that (it's been a while since I saw them)?



Why not just admit we have no clue of all the various reasons why people commit crimes? Because we don't. There are a lot of very dangerous people walking around who get some kind of satisfaction in doing harm. And they have to be dealt with and their numbers are growing. Let's start there. Yes we don't have a fail proof system there's a bunch of corruption and a lot of people are being unnecessarily jailed for unnecessary stuff. Seems bizarre to me not to even acknowledge the tech minded solutions that are obviously on the horizon. Yes I used a concept from a show not black mirror but I guess along those lines. The minority report was jusst a show of course there's no magical triplets predicting crimes but we now have AI being used to predict crime in some places. Tech solutions are very much on the criminal justice systems minds. Seems ashame to not at least acknowledge the possibilities of what ways others are thinking to resolve these problems. https://emerj.com/ai-sect...lications/ https://youtu.be/zAWDzROqlOg August 11, 2020 Artificial intelligence examines best ways to keep parolees from recommitting crimes https://www.purdue.edu/ne...rimes.html Artificial intelligence will give researchers a window into the parolee’s daily life through bracelets that collect health information, including stress and heart rate. Smart phones carried by each person also will collect information, ranging from where they are at any given time to the photos they may take. The artificial intelligence will be run in intervals with the data examined rather than real time. Rogers said the information will be used to identify risky behaviors, stressful situations and other behavioral and physiological factors correlated with those individuals at risk of returning to their criminal behavior. “The goal of the study is to identify opportunities for early intervention to better assist those individuals to integrate back into general society successfully,” he said. [Edited 9/6/20 0:20am]

Thank you for the AI article, it's interesting, and certainly human parole observation is completey inadequate (overstreched and overworked, I know probation workers work exceptionally hard).

As for the bold, I'm not sure that we don't have any clue. Lots and lots of work goes into why people commit crime. The problem is how to stop it. At a low level addiction, poverty etc... etc... could have fairly easy success if we were willing to really put in the time, money and resources. Things like acts of terror are much more difficult. There was an interesting part in the YouTube video that Deebee posted which said that capitalism needs criminality to succeed (or something similar, I'm paraphrasing), that it needs good guys and bad guys. The more I saw in prisons, and have learned about since, the more I think people at the top need people to keep looking down for the criminals, for the common man, when actually the biggest criminals are the ones we need to be looking upward for. Until that changes then I don't believe anything will change.


I have compounded reasons for saying that. I realize there are mountains of study, mountains of knowledge gained. That's a positive thing. But it seems we are constantly expecting 80s sitcom type solutions to all problems. Straightforward and easily solved in a short period of time. It's just not panning out that way. There are layers. It seems like with each passing decade we come back to the same exact questions with no definitive answers. Maybe we need to admit not knowing this time around admit we're just experimenting and we'll throw away what doesn’t work and keep what does. Maybe accepting the flaw will free us up to focus on the problem as oppose to spinning wheels keeping up.the appearance of knowing exactly what to do. Right now all we really have is to restrain.
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Reply #63 posted 09/07/20 7:25am

deebee

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maplenpg said:

Just watched the YouTube link. I'll say it again...what a woman. Thank you so much. I'm going to watch it a second time as it's got so much in there, then I'm going to take a look at some of her other stuff.


You're welcome! I agree - she's a really interesting and inspiring figure, because, not only does she give an illuminating analysis of what's underlies the burgeoning carceral state in the US, she's also been very much involved in organising against that, and writes about that too.


The other social scientist working on this issue who I'd recommend checking out is Loïc Wacquant. Like Gilmore, he puts the changes of the last 30 or 40 years in a much wider political, economic and cultural context - considering the way that neoliberal reforms have created economic and social insecurity in low-income communities, and how the retrenchment of the welfare state has essentially left a situation whereby penal institutions are used to manage those members of disenfranchised populations that drift into the criminal economy, and thus shore up this state of affairs.

He maps the key findings of his research in this presentation, and talks about it in more detail in this interview. These articles might also be of interest.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #64 posted 09/07/20 7:57am

deebee

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maplenpg said:

deebee said:

[Quoting the NYT article:] A person who eventually either steals something or assaults someone goes to prison, where he is offered no job training, no redress of his own traumas and issues, no rehabilitation. “The reality of prison, and of black suffering, is just as harrowing as the myth of slave labor,” Gilmore says. “Why do we need that misconception to see the horror of it?” Slaves were compelled to work in order to make profits for plantation owners. The business of slavery was cotton, sugar and rice. Prison, Gilmore notes, is a government institution. It is not a business and does not function on a profit motive. This may seem technical, but the technical distinction matters, because you can’t resist prisons by arguing against slavery if prisons don’t engage in slavery. The activist and researcher James Kilgore, himself formerly incarcerated, has said, “The overwhelming problem for people inside prison is not that their labor is super exploited; it’s that they’re being warehoused with very little to do and not being given any kind of programs or resources that enable them to succeed once they do get out of prison.”

What a great article! What a great woman! Thank you so much for posting.

The article is so succinct I'm not going to add too much aside from that Britain is about to start building its first mega-prisons (in 2021), so much of this is very apt as we choose the route of increased incarceration rather than social measures.

Also the very last quote is very true: even though many prisoners have work and sport, many don't, and they can be in their cells up to 23 hrs a day. The allowance (£46) they are given when they leave entails that even the most determined prisoner will struggle even to get basic travel and accomodation until benefits are sorted, which puts them straight back in the path of their old life.

There are still problems I grapple with, but overall the vision for social reform to prevent crime (and therefore the need for prisons) should be much more of a talking point than it is. Sadly the narrative continues to be about after the crime has taken place: not enough prisons, light sentencing and basically that prisoners are undeserving of kindness or special treatment. Hell, I've had enough discussions with people who don't think they should have televisions or games consoles in their cells, that prisons are like holiday camps blah, blah, blah.

[Edited 9/4/20 23:11pm]

Yes, I agree. Not only does that mean we do little to deal with underlying structural causes, it also means that little is being done even at the level of helping equip individuals with knowledge and skills that might improve their situation when they get out. I don't know if you watched the PBS documentary College Behind Bars (it's on iPlayer as a two-parter, but there's an extended four-part version on Netflix), but it's an eye-opening and moving look at what people wasting away behind bars can be capable of doing with the right interventions. And, of course, it also begs the question of how their life trajectories and contributions to society might have been in a counterfactual scenario where things were different.

Per your last point, one issue that those running the education programme in the documentary found themselves having to face is, with college education being a costly privilege for the free population, rather than a right, there was a good deal of opposition to the incarcerated getting 'special privileges' like books and teachers. disbelief As Angela Davis once noted, in the days of slavery, the way poor folk knew they were 'free' is that they weren't slaves; today, the way those for whom a college education is well beyond their means know they're free is that they're not prisoners. Start to mess with that and, well, who knows what realisations might dawn on people.

[Edited 9/7/20 8:02am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #65 posted 09/09/20 1:34pm

onlyforaminute

OldFriends4Sale said:



2freaky4church1 said:


Prisons are there to ensure we still have a form of slavery.





confused come on now



how would you handle child molestors and rapists particularly?




Speaking of which...when you have things like the C.R.E.E.P.E.R Act (see below) stalled, something that falls behind the invention of the times and have little to no research to back up any opinion about it.

And wasn't it discovered that in all major cities there's a serious backlog of rape kits to be processed anywhere between hundreds and thousands. Here we have the means to investigate yet there's an element missing. The cases simply overflow the resources. These are not even crimes being prosecuted let alone serving any prison time. These problems don't seem to be calculated into the solution.

H.R. 4655 (115th): CREEPER Act of 2017
FLORIDA CREEPER ACT TO BE REINTRODUCED AFTER GIRL'S LIKENESS USED FOR CHILD SEX DOLL
Florida, Kentucky and Tennesse are the only three states with current bans on such dolls.


Author: 10 Tampa Bay
Published: 2:03 PM EDT September 3, 2020
U.S. Rep. Vern Buchanan (R, FL-16) says he is introducing federal legislation to ban the sale of sex dolls that look like children after a "grotesque incident involving a Florida girl."

Thursday's announcement comes after television station WTVJ reported a lifelike doll resembling a real girl from the Miami area was being sold online.

"The mother said a photo of her child was stolen and her likeness was turned into a sex doll that was legally for sale on Amazon and other websites," Congressman Buchanan's office explained. "The girl’s mother was horrified and expressed concern for her daughter’s safety."

https://www.google.com/am...3883a096a4
If you carry the egg basket do not dance.

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Reply #66 posted 09/09/20 10:15pm

maplenpg

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deebee said:

maplenpg said:

Just watched the YouTube link. I'll say it again...what a woman. Thank you so much. I'm going to watch it a second time as it's got so much in there, then I'm going to take a look at some of her other stuff.


You're welcome! I agree - she's a really interesting and inspiring figure, because, not only does she give an illuminating analysis of what's underlies the burgeoning carceral state in the US, she's also been very much involved in organising against that, and writes about that too.


The other social scientist working on this issue who I'd recommend checking out is Loïc Wacquant. Like Gilmore, he puts the changes of the last 30 or 40 years in a much wider political, economic and cultural context - considering the way that neoliberal reforms have created economic and social insecurity in low-income communities, and how the retrenchment of the welfare state has essentially left a situation whereby penal institutions are used to manage those members of disenfranchised populations that drift into the criminal economy, and thus shore up this state of affairs.

He maps the key findings of his research in this presentation, and talks about it in more detail in this interview. These articles might also be of interest.

Thank you. I am trying to find time to look at the links properly.

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #67 posted 09/09/20 10:25pm

maplenpg

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onlyforaminute said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

confused come on now

how would you handle child molestors and rapists particularly?

Speaking of which...when you have things like the C.R.E.E.P.E.R Act (see below) stalled, something that falls behind the invention of the times and have little to no research to back up any opinion about it. And wasn't it discovered that in all major cities there's a serious backlog of rape kits to be processed anywhere between hundreds and thousands. Here we have the means to investigate yet there's an element missing. The cases simply overflow the resources. These are not even crimes being prosecuted let alone serving any prison time. These problems don't seem to be calculated into the solution. H.R. 4655 (115th): CREEPER Act of 2017 FLORIDA CREEPER ACT TO BE REINTRODUCED AFTER GIRL'S LIKENESS USED FOR CHILD SEX DOLL Florida, Kentucky and Tennesse are the only three states with current bans on such dolls. Author: 10 Tampa Bay Published: 2:03 PM EDT September 3, 2020 U.S. Rep. Vern Buchanan (R, FL-16) says he is introducing federal legislation to ban the sale of sex dolls that look like children after a "grotesque incident involving a Florida girl." Thursday's announcement comes after television station WTVJ reported a lifelike doll resembling a real girl from the Miami area was being sold online. "The mother said a photo of her child was stolen and her likeness was turned into a sex doll that was legally for sale on Amazon and other websites," Congressman Buchanan's office explained. "The girl’s mother was horrified and expressed concern for her daughter’s safety." https://www.google.com/am...3883a096a4

Nothing to argue with here, awful. I'm certainly not saying crimnals shouldn't be prosecuted after crimes have taken place. The last bit with the doll reminded me of something prisoners used to do inside the prison I worked at (I'm not going to share details because of confidentiality), which was particularly foul and stomach-churning. When thinking about crime prevention, then child abusers and rapists are almost certainly the most difficult areas to tackle.

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #68 posted 09/09/20 11:06pm

benni

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A friend of mine once said to me that we can tell when a society is breaking down, when even the smallest laws are no longer followed. That laws have to be agreed upon by the people in a community in order for society to thrive.

The one thing I've been noticing in recent years is that we no longer even follow the smallest of laws, such as stopping at a red light. I used to be able to pull out on a green light immediately because people would slow down at the yellow and stop at the red, but now, people speed up at the yellow and there are always a couple of stragglers gunning their way through a red light. I sat at a green light yesterday and counted 4 more cars that went through a red light before it was safe for me to go, when I had the right of way.

I have a stop sign by my house. My road is a busy road at certain times of the days because people use it as a short cut. I can sit outside on my porch, on any given day, for an hour or so and watch at least 10 people drive right through the stop sign.

We've stopped following the most basic of laws. We can no longer agree on what our laws are. You have the Republicans that want abortion to be illegal, Democrats want it to remain legal, no agreement. No agreement on DACA. No agreement on many of our larger laws. I honestly do not think our society, as it is, will last much longer.

@GeorgeTrue1 -- Alex's Jones's Razor - it's not that sharp
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Reply #69 posted 09/10/20 8:49am

2freaky4church
1

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A bit of a deflection there Old Friends.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #70 posted 09/11/20 7:53am

DiminutiveRock
er

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benni said:

A friend of mine once said to me that we can tell when a society is breaking down, when even the smallest laws are no longer followed. That laws have to be agreed upon by the people in a community in order for society to thrive.

The one thing I've been noticing in recent years is that we no longer even follow the smallest of laws, such as stopping at a red light. I used to be able to pull out on a green light immediately because people would slow down at the yellow and stop at the red, but now, people speed up at the yellow and there are always a couple of stragglers gunning their way through a red light. I sat at a green light yesterday and counted 4 more cars that went through a red light before it was safe for me to go, when I had the right of way.

I have a stop sign by my house. My road is a busy road at certain times of the days because people use it as a short cut. I can sit outside on my porch, on any given day, for an hour or so and watch at least 10 people drive right through the stop sign.

We've stopped following the most basic of laws. We can no longer agree on what our laws are. You have the Republicans that want abortion to be illegal, Democrats want it to remain legal, no agreement. No agreement on DACA. No agreement on many of our larger laws. I honestly do not think our society, as it is, will last much longer.


I have noticed the same thing near my house. Once I got a dog and started walking my own neighborhood everyday I'd see people rolling through stop signs. If the driver makes eye contact I shake my head - lol


I think people do what they can get away with.


Many years ago I worked as 2nd assistant for the head of a big studio. I sat in an outer office and the 1st assistant and my boss had adjoining offices. I started noticing some things missing in the office and the 1st assistant even told me to make a report with lot security. One day, as a special favor, I was sent a screener from a friend at a production office for my dad. When it didn't show up I called the courier who said it was delivered to my desk. I asked the 1st assistant and she said she never saw a courier. I told her the screener was for my dad and that it was sent from the producer's office who'd be upset since the movie was just released in theaters. As I walked away I thought I saw a screener sticking out under some papers on her desk. Later she came over to me with the screener in her hand and said our boss had grabbed the envelope (addressed to me) off my desk and put it in her script bag to take home. She lied. I started putting it all together: she was taking things, little things to expensive things, from our boss. I was soon leaving for a new job and debated whether to tell our boss who loved and explicitly trusted the 1st assistant, but I wasn't confident I could produce any evidence she coudn't refute or blame me for later. Cut to five years later - the 1st assistant been extorting thousands of dollars from the boss and was caught when the boss's spouse went to their accountant to audit some unusual purchases. She was confronted and fired but was told if she made restitution no charges would be levied against her. After Ileft she kept stealing more and more until she got caught. She made a 6 figure salary, but she felt compelled to take what was not hers... I wish I knew why.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
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Reply #71 posted 09/12/20 11:02am

maplenpg

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DiminutiveRocker said:


I think people do what they can get away with.

You are absolutely right. To add I think the example you are set by others counts as well. For example, when Boris Johnson's puppet master chief advisor broke the lockdown rules, many others started breaking the rules too, stating why should they obey when those making the rules don't. Right now, BJ is openly and brazenly breaking international law whilst at the same time telling us minions all to obey the laws he is making. You have to lead by example.


To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #72 posted 09/12/20 11:04am

maplenpg

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benni said:

A friend of mine once said to me that we can tell when a society is breaking down, when even the smallest laws are no longer followed. That laws have to be agreed upon by the people in a community in order for society to thrive.

The one thing I've been noticing in recent years is that we no longer even follow the smallest of laws, such as stopping at a red light. I used to be able to pull out on a green light immediately because people would slow down at the yellow and stop at the red, but now, people speed up at the yellow and there are always a couple of stragglers gunning their way through a red light. I sat at a green light yesterday and counted 4 more cars that went through a red light before it was safe for me to go, when I had the right of way.

I have a stop sign by my house. My road is a busy road at certain times of the days because people use it as a short cut. I can sit outside on my porch, on any given day, for an hour or so and watch at least 10 people drive right through the stop sign.

We've stopped following the most basic of laws. We can no longer agree on what our laws are. You have the Republicans that want abortion to be illegal, Democrats want it to remain legal, no agreement. No agreement on DACA. No agreement on many of our larger laws. I honestly do not think our society, as it is, will last much longer.

Is it really wrong of me to think there will be some laws that we always push the boundaries on? Speeding for example, or like you say trying to get through the lights on amber?

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #73 posted 09/13/20 6:21am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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maplenpg said:

benni said:

A friend of mine once said to me that we can tell when a society is breaking down, when even the smallest laws are no longer followed. That laws have to be agreed upon by the people in a community in order for society to thrive.

The one thing I've been noticing in recent years is that we no longer even follow the smallest of laws, such as stopping at a red light. I used to be able to pull out on a green light immediately because people would slow down at the yellow and stop at the red, but now, people speed up at the yellow and there are always a couple of stragglers gunning their way through a red light. I sat at a green light yesterday and counted 4 more cars that went through a red light before it was safe for me to go, when I had the right of way.

I have a stop sign by my house. My road is a busy road at certain times of the days because people use it as a short cut. I can sit outside on my porch, on any given day, for an hour or so and watch at least 10 people drive right through the stop sign.

We've stopped following the most basic of laws. We can no longer agree on what our laws are. You have the Republicans that want abortion to be illegal, Democrats want it to remain legal, no agreement. No agreement on DACA. No agreement on many of our larger laws. I honestly do not think our society, as it is, will last much longer.

Is it really wrong of me to think there will be some laws that we always push the boundaries on? Speeding for example, or like you say trying to get through the lights on amber?

Add to that the amount of people who still talk on their phones, and the ones that do live feeds while driving

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?

#IDEFINEME
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Reply #74 posted 09/13/20 6:57am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Humans are very primal still. This year has shown how primal humans are.

I watch the walking dead, and it is a lesson in how ready humans are to show their nature(I'm not even going to call it criminal nature) it is darker than that.

.

.

[Looting has been occuring at such a scale in Chicago that for weeks Mayor Lori Lightfoot has regularly ordered the city's bridges raised to limit access to downtown. Lightfoot said of the disturbances, "This is not legitimate First Amendment-protected speech. These were not poor people engaged in petty theft to feed themselves and their family … This was straight up felony criminal conduct."]

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?

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Reply #75 posted 09/17/20 11:23am

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I think a world with no prisons will be a world with rubber rooms and increased mental institutions

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Another effort is MPD150, a group of local organizers, artists, activists and researchers that started in 2017 — the 150 year anniversary of Minneapolis police — and strives for the "devolution" of the Minneapolis Police Department and a "police-free" future.

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I think of Star Trek the Next Generation when I read this. It's a very hopeful view of mankind.

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Reply #76 posted 09/17/20 11:37am

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OldFriends4Sale said:

I think a world with no prisons will be a world with rubber rooms and increased mental institutions

.

Another effort is MPD150, a group of local organizers, artists, activists and researchers that started in 2017 — the 150 year anniversary of Minneapolis police — and strives for the "devolution" of the Minneapolis Police Department and a "police-free" future.

.

I think of Star Trek the Next Generation when I read this. It's a very hopeful view of mankind.

Given that over 75% of prisoners have mental health problems, I'm glad you agree that mental health and crime are inter-related. Major investment in mental health would be a great start in reducing crime.

As for the rest, I think Deebee summed it all up perfectly earlier in the thread. so much so I'm going to copy and paste it (I've bolded the best bits). I very much advise you look at the links. They're good



Deebee said: It's an interesting clip and a worthwhile challenge to take up, I think. (I see a lot of good stuff come out of the OU.) The current discourse about 'defunding the police' picks up where earlier 'prison abolitionism' left off - and though both tend to be met with the banally obvious point that, if you took away prisons and police under existing conditions, there would be deleterious effects, that's not really all that they convey.

What they articulate is something utopian - in the same way that telling a crowd about your dream that one day people will be judged not by the colour of their skin, but by the content of their character, articulates something utopian, though any fool can reflexively quip that that's a big ask. Thinking in utopian terms can be useful in inviting us to imagine what we want; making us think about the conditions that would need to be in place for that state of affairs, or something more like it, to be achieved; and encouraging us to think about what we might do, starting from where we are, to transform existing conditions so as to create a reality where some of the harms we've identified are diminished.

There was a good profile in the NYT, which I came across recently, of the scholar and activist Ruth Wilson Gilmore, who adopts the 'abolitionist' label. It sets out quite nicely what's a stake:

Prison abolition, as a movement, sounds provocative and absolute, but what it is as a practice requires subtler understanding. For Gilmore, who has been active in the movement for more than 30 years, it’s both a long-term goal and a practical policy program, calling for government investment in jobs, education, housing, health care — all the elements that are required for a productive and violence-free life. Abolition means not just the closing of prisons but the presence, instead, of vital systems of support that many communities lack. Instead of asking how, in a future without prisons, we will deal with so-called violent people, abolitionists ask how we resolve inequalities and get people the resources they need long before the hypothetical moment when, as Gilmore puts it, they “mess up.”

Which isn’t to say that Gilmore and other abolitionists are opposed to all reforms. “It’s obvious that the system won’t disappear overnight,” Gilmore told me. “No abolitionist thinks that will be the case." "[But] [s]o many ... proposed remedies don’t end up diminishing the system. They regard the system as something that can be fixed by removing and replacing a few elements.” [...]

“What I love about abolition,” the legal scholar and author James Forman Jr. told me, “and now use in my own thinking — and when I identify myself as an abolitionist, this is what I have in mind — is the idea that you imagine a world without prisons, and then you work to try to build that world.” [...] “I feel like a movement to end mass incarceration and replace it with a system that actually restores and protects communities will never succeed without abolitionists. Because people will make compromises and sacrifices, and they’ll lose the vision. They’ll start to think things are huge victories, when they’re tiny. And so, to me, abolition is essential.”

Full article: https://www.nytimes.com/2...lmore.html

There's also a lovely intro to Gilmore and her work here: https://www.youtube.com/w...CS627aKrJI

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #77 posted 09/17/20 11:46am

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Imagining a World Without PrisonsLoaded on April 3, 2018

by James KilgoreFiled under: Criminal justice system reform.

By James Kilgore, Truthout | Op-Ed

This story is the seventh in Truthout's "Visions of 2018" series, in which activist leaders answer the question: "What would you like to see created, built, imagined or begun this year?" Each piece will focus on a bold idea for transformation, to give us fuel as the year moves forward.

In circles of prison abolition and criminal legal reform, the call to imagine a world without prisons -- a sort of cageless utopia -- has recently grown louder and stronger. The point of doing this is to allow us to break free from the present reality in which it has become so normalized to have millions of people locked up or incarcerated in open-air prisons of various forms. When asked to imagine a world without prisons, many people talk about peace, the absence of police, or a world where everyone's basic needs are met so we wouldn't see poverty and inequality driving criminalization and "crime." White supremacy would be a distant memory in this world. This exercise can be valuable and inspiring, but also at times a little off base. Frequently there is a tendency to leap from the present to utopia without thinking concretely what the path to that utopia might look like. So, in imagining this world, I would like to make three points that might take us in a slightly different direction than most considerations of a world without prisons....

https://www.prisonlegalne...t-prisons/

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Reply #78 posted 09/17/20 11:50am

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https://nia-books-and-thi...ons-poster

This poster was created by artist Bianca Diaz for an exhibition titled 'Picturing A World Without Prisons." This 11 by 17 poster is printed on glossy card stock.

All proceeds from poster sales will be donated to Brave Space Alliance in honor or Pride Month. https://www.bravespacealliance.org

For more about Bianca's work, visit her site: https://www.biancadiaz.com

worldwithoutprisons-1.jpg

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Reply #79 posted 09/17/20 12:09pm

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Rubber rooms?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #80 posted 09/17/20 2:54pm

slyjackson

Experimentation on criminals stop killing innocent animals.

[Edited 9/17/20 14:55pm]

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