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Thread started 08/17/20 3:38am

maplenpg

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Imagining a world with no prisons

As many of you know I have an interest in prisons. I studied them as part of my degree (was interesting to see Foucault discussed in Freaky's thread, his book Discipline and Punish had a big effect on me) and have worked in a high security establishment.

This video was on the front page of the BBC website today. It's a 4 minute video asking us to consider whether we really need prisons at all? The basic premise is similar to the 'defund the police' premise - that if you put money into preventing crime in the first place, and put proper structures in place for rehabilitation, then are prisons really necessary?

My opinion is that I saw a lot of prisoners become addicted to drugs in prison (or failed to be detoxed off them), also they often picked up tips and tricks in prison from other prisoners, enabling them to be better at their chosen career when they were released (many viewed crime as a career). The heirarchy enabled some prisoners to commit crimes within the prison, often allowing them to profit well at the expense of others. So, for these people I think there must be a better way, another alternative. Like JJ, I think a huge part of this would be decriminalising drugs, taking a lot of the drug-related crime off the streets.

But what about the murderers, and the paedophiles, and the terrorists? How would no prison help them, or keep the public safe? That's what I can't get my head around.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, here's the link to the video. I'd love to know what people think about the idea of taking down the prison walls (especially when we're in the process of building mega-prisons here in the UK).


https://www.bbc.co.uk/ide...i/p08nbj02

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #1 posted 08/17/20 3:55am

v10letblues

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Yes sadly we desperatly need prisons, police, laws, court systems, lawyers, PC culture, the whole thing.

.

Humanity, as it is today needs this so much.

.

That's not to say it is perfect. We need to do a lot more to make the system better.

.

There is a chasm diffrence between complacency, and elimination. The two ends of the spectrum,

[Edited 8/17/20 6:26am]

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Reply #2 posted 08/17/20 6:02am

maplenpg

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v10letblues said:

Yes sadly we desperatly need prisons, police, laws, court systems, lawyers, PC culture, the whole thing.

.

Humanity, as it is today needs this so much.

.

That's not to say it is perfect. We need to do a lt more to male it better,

.

There is a chasm diffrence between complacency, and elimination. The two ends of the spectrum,

Agreed, but maybe instead of building more prisons, we could put the money into crime prevention, mental health, or most importantly IMO into childrens care services?

Maybe we should be more questioning as to what crime is and why the poor are disproportionately charged more than the wealthy? Or what theft really is and the motivations behind it (i.e. if an MP claims £7500 for new bedding, or gives his mate £252million for unfufilled contracts then is that not worse than taking a chicken to feed your kids from Tesco?). Maybe we should be more sympathetic to those born and raised in the care system, who never really experience the true concept of family? Maybe we should consider why men and women get to the point where they commit crime to go back to prison rather than live life in society? Maybe radical thinking about prisons shouldn't be completely off the table?

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #3 posted 08/17/20 6:30am

v10letblues

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maplenpg said:

v10letblues said:

Yes sadly we desperatly need prisons, police, laws, court systems, lawyers, PC culture, the whole thing.

.

Humanity, as it is today needs this so much.

.

That's not to say it is perfect. We need to do a lt more to male it better,

.

There is a chasm diffrence between complacency, and elimination. The two ends of the spectrum,

Agreed, but maybe instead of building more prisons, we could put the money into crime prevention, mental health, or most importantly IMO into childrens care services?

Maybe we should be more questioning as to what crime is and why the poor are disproportionately charged more than the wealthy? Or what theft really is and the motivations behind it (i.e. if an MP claims £7500 for new bedding, or gives his mate £252million for unfufilled contracts then is that not worse than taking a chicken to feed your kids from Tesco?). Maybe we should be more sympathetic to those born and raised in the care system, who never really experience the true concept of family? Maybe we should consider why men and women get to the point where they commit crime to go back to prison rather than live life in society? Maybe radical thinking about prisons shouldn't be completely off the table?

Yes i agree. Those things are the most important things in trying to have a safe and enriching society. Anything we can do as a preventive to those other more extreme and hurtful things.

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Reply #4 posted 08/17/20 7:36am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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This issue, actually crosses into areas of thought of humans origins, religion, etc as well.

The knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone has an opinion of right and wrong. And we can find that there are so many things that people don't agree on as right and wrong.

What causes fights and quarrels among you?

Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

You desire but do not have, so you kill.

You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.


I think too often people think if we just do this or that, this person will do better. Thinking everyone wants to be good people. But from what I've seen in life, that isn't true.


I watched my father and his siblings do all they could to help save their younger brother. They went above and beyond, and it just seemed he made a choice. One thing, is I think he should never have gotten married. I think he did it because society says that's what you do. Back in the 70s when people could go to the boss and get the check of their spouse, sibling, friend, to help out, my dad/uncle would do that for their brother.
.
Because he was gambling and not taking care of the bills and giving money to his wife for food etc

He loved to hang out in bars(the more seedier kind) he was a friend to prostitutes(used to by them clothing-and sometimes take his wifes clothes he thought she didn't use) he started using drugs later.
No matter what they did after things went down hill bad, he seemed to prefer a certain lifestyle.

.
I had a buddy who was ex military, created a catering joint, but use to 'party' and ended up with an addiction. For about a years time, I went alongside him in his attempts to change that part of his life. I remember nearing the end of my time knowing him, after asking him a question, he told me he "loved the chase and danger" of what he did/experienced to get hi. And he was a bit arrogant.
.
Humans have varying ideas of right and wrong. People who consider themselves good(and people we might consider good) do bad things. And bad people(and people we might consider bad) do good things.
Even my eyes being opened in forums like this, watching particularly intelligent people, clearly learning how to skirt around the rules or just stay outside of crossing the lines.

.

America has always had sheriffs and deputies, ie police and jails. smaller because the populations were smaller. We didn't have mega cities for a long time. We now have way more people on the earth than the earth can contain in my opinion. More than attention can hold.

.

You mentioned murderers, child molesters, terrorists and there are so many other things that go beyond creating health insituation and services to help people cope. But that has to be volunatry even if legislated by the courts. Many people after seeing destruction they have caused to their life and others, with court orders to take medication and see a counselor, still resist it. People will talk about rights & freedoms when it comes to court ordered pyschiatist visits and medication. Mental Health facilities/ALcohol and Drug in/out patient facilities, people still share information on how to do wrong, do what they want, how to fake things. The same way people share on how to do good/be good, others share on how to do bad/be bad.

.

Science is a slippery slope. Studying things for 'education'. Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths.

But politics and science cannot police peoples thoughts (or should they or will they)

I would love a world where people do the right thing. Where we don't have prisons, healthy facilities, police, social service workers even. But I'm not optimistic about the human race.

I think schools should focus kids on working toward their passions. Give them the basics, and add things like financial management(health/hygene) but focus people as is done when they are Seniors and College academics. So they are not idle and just going through the motions by the time they are out of High School. I think that will help a lot. And with prisons, like the man in the video, set up something that can help target prisoners that are more apt to be rehabilitated.

But again even with these things, people still do bad things. Educated, smart, well off people who still drive drunk. After all we know, and have seen people still drive drunk.
Questions about why people get drunk or get high. Everyone who gets high are not drug addicts.
It's a great discussion.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...
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Reply #5 posted 08/17/20 8:49am

maplenpg

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OldFriends4Sale said:


This issue, actually crosses into areas of thought of humans origins, religion, etc as well.

The knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone has an opinion of right and wrong. And we can find that there are so many things that people don't agree on as right and wrong.

What causes fights and quarrels among you?

Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

You desire but do not have, so you kill.

You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.


I think too often people think if we just do this or that, this person will do better. Thinking everyone wants to be good people. But from what I've seen in life, that isn't true.


I watched my father and his siblings do all they could to help save their younger brother. They went above and beyond, and it just seemed he made a choice. One thing, is I think he should never have gotten married. I think he did it because society says that's what you do. Back in the 70s when people could go to the boss and get the check of their spouse, sibling, friend, to help out, my dad/uncle would do that for their brother.
.
Because he was gambling and not taking care of the bills and giving money to his wife for food etc

He loved to hang out in bars(the more seedier kind) he was a friend to prostitutes(used to by them clothing-and sometimes take his wifes clothes he thought she didn't use) he started using drugs later.
No matter what they did after things went down hill bad, he seemed to prefer a certain lifestyle.

.
I had a buddy who was ex military, created a catering joint, but use to 'party' and ended up with an addiction. For about a years time, I went alongside him in his attempts to change that part of his life. I remember nearing the end of my time knowing him, after asking him a question, he told me he "loved the chase and danger" of what he did/experienced to get hi. And he was a bit arrogant.
.
Humans have varying ideas of right and wrong. People who consider themselves good(and people we might consider good) do bad things. And bad people(and people we might consider bad) do good things.
Even my eyes being opened in forums like this, watching particularly intelligent people, clearly learning how to skirt around the rules or just stay outside of crossing the lines.

.

America has always had sheriffs and deputies, ie police and jails. smaller because the populations were smaller. We didn't have mega cities for a long time. We now have way more people on the earth than the earth can contain in my opinion. More than attention can hold.

.

You mentioned murderers, child molesters, terrorists and there are so many other things that go beyond creating health insituation and services to help people cope. But that has to be volunatry even if legislated by the courts. Many people after seeing destruction they have caused to their life and others, with court orders to take medication and see a counselor, still resist it. People will talk about rights & freedoms when it comes to court ordered pyschiatist visits and medication. Mental Health facilities/ALcohol and Drug in/out patient facilities, people still share information on how to do wrong, do what they want, how to fake things. The same way people share on how to do good/be good, others share on how to do bad/be bad.

.

Science is a slippery slope. Studying things for 'education'. Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths.

But politics and science cannot police peoples thoughts (or should they or will they)

I would love a world where people do the right thing. Where we don't have prisons, healthy facilities, police, social service workers even. But I'm not optimistic about the human race.

I think schools should focus kids on working toward their passions. Give them the basics, and add things like financial management(health/hygene) but focus people as is done when they are Seniors and College academics. So they are not idle and just going through the motions by the time they are out of High School. I think that will help a lot. And with prisons, like the man in the video, set up something that can help target prisoners that are more apt to be rehabilitated.

But again even with these things, people still do bad things. Educated, smart, well off people who still drive drunk. After all we know, and have seen people still drive drunk.
Questions about why people get drunk or get high. Everyone who gets high are not drug addicts.
It's a great discussion.

Thanks for this interesting and in-depth post. I haven't got time to reply in full right now, but I will come back to give it the response it deserves. One sentence that stood out to me though was this, "Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths." - can you elaborate?

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #6 posted 08/17/20 9:29am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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maplenpg said:

OldFriends4Sale said:


This issue, actually crosses into areas of thought of humans origins, religion, etc as well.

The knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone has an opinion of right and wrong. And we can find that there are so many things that people don't agree on as right and wrong.

What causes fights and quarrels among you?

Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

You desire but do not have, so you kill.

You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.


I think too often people think if we just do this or that, this person will do better. Thinking everyone wants to be good people. But from what I've seen in life, that isn't true.


I watched my father and his siblings do all they could to help save their younger brother. They went above and beyond, and it just seemed he made a choice. One thing, is I think he should never have gotten married. I think he did it because society says that's what you do. Back in the 70s when people could go to the boss and get the check of their spouse, sibling, friend, to help out, my dad/uncle would do that for their brother.
.
Because he was gambling and not taking care of the bills and giving money to his wife for food etc

He loved to hang out in bars(the more seedier kind) he was a friend to prostitutes(used to by them clothing-and sometimes take his wifes clothes he thought she didn't use) he started using drugs later.
No matter what they did after things went down hill bad, he seemed to prefer a certain lifestyle.

.
I had a buddy who was ex military, created a catering joint, but use to 'party' and ended up with an addiction. For about a years time, I went alongside him in his attempts to change that part of his life. I remember nearing the end of my time knowing him, after asking him a question, he told me he "loved the chase and danger" of what he did/experienced to get hi. And he was a bit arrogant.
.
Humans have varying ideas of right and wrong. People who consider themselves good(and people we might consider good) do bad things. And bad people(and people we might consider bad) do good things.
Even my eyes being opened in forums like this, watching particularly intelligent people, clearly learning how to skirt around the rules or just stay outside of crossing the lines.

.

America has always had sheriffs and deputies, ie police and jails. smaller because the populations were smaller. We didn't have mega cities for a long time. We now have way more people on the earth than the earth can contain in my opinion. More than attention can hold.

.

You mentioned murderers, child molesters, terrorists and there are so many other things that go beyond creating health insituation and services to help people cope. But that has to be volunatry even if legislated by the courts. Many people after seeing destruction they have caused to their life and others, with court orders to take medication and see a counselor, still resist it. People will talk about rights & freedoms when it comes to court ordered pyschiatist visits and medication. Mental Health facilities/ALcohol and Drug in/out patient facilities, people still share information on how to do wrong, do what they want, how to fake things. The same way people share on how to do good/be good, others share on how to do bad/be bad.

.

Science is a slippery slope. Studying things for 'education'. Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths.

But politics and science cannot police peoples thoughts (or should they or will they)

I would love a world where people do the right thing. Where we don't have prisons, healthy facilities, police, social service workers even. But I'm not optimistic about the human race.

I think schools should focus kids on working toward their passions. Give them the basics, and add things like financial management(health/hygene) but focus people as is done when they are Seniors and College academics. So they are not idle and just going through the motions by the time they are out of High School. I think that will help a lot. And with prisons, like the man in the video, set up something that can help target prisoners that are more apt to be rehabilitated.

But again even with these things, people still do bad things. Educated, smart, well off people who still drive drunk. After all we know, and have seen people still drive drunk.
Questions about why people get drunk or get high. Everyone who gets high are not drug addicts.
It's a great discussion.

Thanks for this interesting and in-depth post. I haven't got time to reply in full right now, but I will come back to give it the response it deserves. One sentence that stood out to me though was this, "Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths." - can you elaborate?

They are too 'detached' from what is happening. I know it is the wild, and we should 'respect nature'. But I've heard that line quoted often when I felt and many others, that the person videotaping should have done something. They are acting as if we are really seeing something we haven't before. For example I was watching a piece on an island that had no predators. The birds nested on hills in dens and little caves(i cannot remember the island) but as goes with people coming from other places, cats came with them and some were loose on the island. Well they quickly started a program to eradicate cats from the island. Which was needed. I love cats too, but if you cannot tranquilize and catch them, then you have to kill them. Well a guy was watching birds den with a nest of young birds. He watch (with fascination) as a cat killed a young bird, and then the next day caught one of the adults in the den and killed it. As if this was something no one should have expect to happen. And even though his purpose 'allegedly' was to assist in helping track and eradicate cats.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...
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Reply #7 posted 08/17/20 11:44am

2freaky4church
1

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The way you truly fight crime: social programs.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #8 posted 08/17/20 11:57am

v10letblues

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2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.

It starts at home. That's the best way. Good parenting, We can't think we can dump everything on the government.

Teachers are now being tasked to teach manners and politeness, Some kids come to school beng little pieces of trash taking away from the education of classrooms.

Parents need to take far more responsibility for their kids behavior.

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Reply #9 posted 08/17/20 12:19pm

onlyforaminute

There are always going to be people who feel they are entitled to your stuff whether you want them to have it or not. I think being realistic as opposed to idealistic is what's needed more thsn anything else. We had the hippie years that made a lot of changes and brought a lot of real awareness but the world as a whole is still a brutal jungle. I really don't trust people who turn a complete blind eye to that fact or only address one side.
If you carry the egg basket do not dance.

Do good, then throw it into the sea.

#octavia tried to tell us
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Reply #10 posted 08/17/20 5:17pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.

only small portions, and those social programs should be for parents.

It's just so easy to blame society, school, the friends, the government etc when parents don't have the time or responsibity of raising their kids and raising them with decency, respect, love and standards. Because people raise kids all the time to be assholes, rapists, bullies, disrespectful, lazy etc

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...
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Reply #11 posted 08/17/20 9:46pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.


I would agee with this. Parents who are both working mutiple jobs to make ends meet are in need of assitance.

VOTE....EARLY
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Reply #12 posted 08/17/20 11:49pm

maplenpg

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OldFriends4Sale said:

This issue, actually crosses into areas of thought of humans origins, religion, etc as well.

The knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone has an opinion of right and wrong. And we can find that there are so many things that people don't agree on as right and wrong.

What causes fights and quarrels among you?

Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

You desire but do not have, so you kill.

You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.


I think too often people think if we just do this or that, this person will do better. Thinking everyone wants to be good people. But from what I've seen in life, that isn't true.


I watched my father and his siblings do all they could to help save their younger brother. They went above and beyond, and it just seemed he made a choice. One thing, is I think he should never have gotten married. I think he did it because society says that's what you do. Back in the 70s when people could go to the boss and get the check of their spouse, sibling, friend, to help out, my dad/uncle would do that for their brother.
.
Because he was gambling and not taking care of the bills and giving money to his wife for food etc

He loved to hang out in bars(the more seedier kind) he was a friend to prostitutes(used to by them clothing-and sometimes take his wifes clothes he thought she didn't use) he started using drugs later.
No matter what they did after things went down hill bad, he seemed to prefer a certain lifestyle.

.
I had a buddy who was ex military, created a catering joint, but use to 'party' and ended up with an addiction. For about a years time, I went alongside him in his attempts to change that part of his life. I remember nearing the end of my time knowing him, after asking him a question, he told me he "loved the chase and danger" of what he did/experienced to get hi. And he was a bit arrogant.
.
Humans have varying ideas of right and wrong. People who consider themselves good(and people we might consider good) do bad things. And bad people(and people we might consider bad) do good things.
Even my eyes being opened in forums like this, watching particularly intelligent people, clearly learning how to skirt around the rules or just stay outside of crossing the lines.

.

America has always had sheriffs and deputies, ie police and jails. smaller because the populations were smaller. We didn't have mega cities for a long time. We now have way more people on the earth than the earth can contain in my opinion. More than attention can hold.

.

You mentioned murderers, child molesters, terrorists and there are so many other things that go beyond creating health insituation and services to help people cope. But that has to be volunatry even if legislated by the courts. Many people after seeing destruction they have caused to their life and others, with court orders to take medication and see a counselor, still resist it. People will talk about rights & freedoms when it comes to court ordered pyschiatist visits and medication. Mental Health facilities/ALcohol and Drug in/out patient facilities, people still share information on how to do wrong, do what they want, how to fake things. The same way people share on how to do good/be good, others share on how to do bad/be bad.

.

Science is a slippery slope. Studying things for 'education'. Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths.

But politics and science cannot police peoples thoughts (or should they or will they)

I would love a world where people do the right thing. Where we don't have prisons, healthy facilities, police, social service workers even. But I'm not optimistic about the human race.

I think schools should focus kids on working toward their passions. Give them the basics, and add things like financial management(health/hygene) but focus people as is done when they are Seniors and College academics. So they are not idle and just going through the motions by the time they are out of High School. I think that will help a lot. And with prisons, like the man in the video, set up something that can help target prisoners that are more apt to be rehabilitated.

But again even with these things, people still do bad things. Educated, smart, well off people who still drive drunk. After all we know, and have seen people still drive drunk.
Questions about why people get drunk or get high. Everyone who gets high are not drug addicts.
It's a great discussion.

The parts of this that I absolutely agree with: that it is a complex discussion, that it is not as simple as right and wrong, good and bad, or even nature/nurture. That wanting someone to do better, even giving them the tools to do it, does not entail that they will take those tools and use them.

I also agree regarding pessimism when it comes to the human race. I absolutely think humans will destroy themslves - the question is just how they will do it.

But I disagree with your comments on science and education. I believe that knowledge is power and that the more we know the better. I agree that some studies might seem senseless. I do think that greater knowledge does not always equate to progression, often people are seeking to make money from that knowledge, or to use it in some way for their own ends, but overall we have to seek to find the answers to the questions that still evade us.

I too would love a world where people did the right thing, the problem is that we can't even all agree what the right thing is to start with, so it's a flawed logic. I guess for me, that's the crux of it. Many people (esp men) in prisons believe they did the right thing for them in that moment, for example, maybe it was kill or be killed (in gang culture for example). Maybe they stole lead roofs from churches because they felt that for them it was the only way to pay the bills. Maybe they truly believed that the terror act they committed would bring them closer to God.

I guess the topic creates more questions that it answers, but as you say, that creates great discussion.




To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #13 posted 08/17/20 11:53pm

maplenpg

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v10letblues said:

2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.

It starts at home. That's the best way. Good parenting, We can't think we can dump everything on the government.

Teachers are now being tasked to teach manners and politeness, Some kids come to school beng little pieces of trash taking away from the education of classrooms.

Parents need to take far more responsibility for their kids behavior.

25% of the prison population have been in care. They have no concept of what it is to be parented. Many have been raised by an endless rota of care home workers and foster parents who come and go through their childhood. Some have mental health problems caused by their mother drinking or taking drugs through the pregnancy. These kids have the odds stacked against them from the moment they leave the womb.

[Edited 8/17/20 23:53pm]

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #14 posted 08/17/20 11:54pm

maplenpg

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2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.

I agree, but they need to be very targeted and specific, and they need funding properly. Many social programs already in place are way too underfunded to be effective.

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #15 posted 08/17/20 11:58pm

maplenpg

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DiminutiveRocker said:

2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.


I would agee with this. Parents who are both working mutiple jobs to make ends meet are in need of assitance.

I'd go further, parents need to be given assistance from multiple angles - emotional, physical and financial help to enable the next generation to create the best opportunities possible and to get out of the rut many generations get stuck in. Your comment reminded me of this cartoon https://www.rnz.co.nz/new...on-a-plate

To accumulate power, a government with authoritarian tendencies must first destroy power. https://www.theguardian.c...y-exchange
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Reply #16 posted 08/18/20 5:41am

OldFriends4Sal
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maplenpg said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

This issue, actually crosses into areas of thought of humans origins, religion, etc as well.

The knowledge of Good and Evil. Everyone has an opinion of right and wrong. And we can find that there are so many things that people don't agree on as right and wrong.

What causes fights and quarrels among you?

Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

You desire but do not have, so you kill.

You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight.


I think too often people think if we just do this or that, this person will do better. Thinking everyone wants to be good people. But from what I've seen in life, that isn't true.


I watched my father and his siblings do all they could to help save their younger brother. They went above and beyond, and it just seemed he made a choice. One thing, is I think he should never have gotten married. I think he did it because society says that's what you do. Back in the 70s when people could go to the boss and get the check of their spouse, sibling, friend, to help out, my dad/uncle would do that for their brother.
.
Because he was gambling and not taking care of the bills and giving money to his wife for food etc

He loved to hang out in bars(the more seedier kind) he was a friend to prostitutes(used to by them clothing-and sometimes take his wifes clothes he thought she didn't use) he started using drugs later.
No matter what they did after things went down hill bad, he seemed to prefer a certain lifestyle.

.
I had a buddy who was ex military, created a catering joint, but use to 'party' and ended up with an addiction. For about a years time, I went alongside him in his attempts to change that part of his life. I remember nearing the end of my time knowing him, after asking him a question, he told me he "loved the chase and danger" of what he did/experienced to get hi. And he was a bit arrogant.
.
Humans have varying ideas of right and wrong. People who consider themselves good(and people we might consider good) do bad things. And bad people(and people we might consider bad) do good things.
Even my eyes being opened in forums like this, watching particularly intelligent people, clearly learning how to skirt around the rules or just stay outside of crossing the lines.

.

America has always had sheriffs and deputies, ie police and jails. smaller because the populations were smaller. We didn't have mega cities for a long time. We now have way more people on the earth than the earth can contain in my opinion. More than attention can hold.

.

You mentioned murderers, child molesters, terrorists and there are so many other things that go beyond creating health insituation and services to help people cope. But that has to be volunatry even if legislated by the courts. Many people after seeing destruction they have caused to their life and others, with court orders to take medication and see a counselor, still resist it. People will talk about rights & freedoms when it comes to court ordered pyschiatist visits and medication. Mental Health facilities/ALcohol and Drug in/out patient facilities, people still share information on how to do wrong, do what they want, how to fake things. The same way people share on how to do good/be good, others share on how to do bad/be bad.

.

Science is a slippery slope. Studying things for 'education'. Sometimes I think people who record/video things that happen in the wild are psychopaths.

But politics and science cannot police peoples thoughts (or should they or will they)

I would love a world where people do the right thing. Where we don't have prisons, healthy facilities, police, social service workers even. But I'm not optimistic about the human race.

I think schools should focus kids on working toward their passions. Give them the basics, and add things like financial management(health/hygene) but focus people as is done when they are Seniors and College academics. So they are not idle and just going through the motions by the time they are out of High School. I think that will help a lot. And with prisons, like the man in the video, set up something that can help target prisoners that are more apt to be rehabilitated.

But again even with these things, people still do bad things. Educated, smart, well off people who still drive drunk. After all we know, and have seen people still drive drunk.
Questions about why people get drunk or get high. Everyone who gets high are not drug addicts.
It's a great discussion.

The parts of this that I absolutely agree with: that it is a complex discussion, that it is not as simple as right and wrong, good and bad, or even nature/nurture. That wanting someone to do better, even giving them the tools to do it, does not entail that they will take those tools and use them.

I also agree regarding pessimism when it comes to the human race. I absolutely think humans will destroy themslves - the question is just how they will do it.

But I disagree with your comments on science and education. I believe that knowledge is power and that the more we know the better. I agree that some studies might seem senseless. I do think that greater knowledge does not always equate to progression, often people are seeking to make money from that knowledge, or to use it in some way for their own ends, but overall we have to seek to find the answers to the questions that still evade us.

I too would love a world where people did the right thing, the problem is that we can't even all agree what the right thing is to start with, so it's a flawed logic. I guess for me, that's the crux of it. Many people (esp men) in prisons believe they did the right thing for them in that moment, for example, maybe it was kill or be killed (in gang culture for example). Maybe they stole lead roofs from churches because they felt that for them it was the only way to pay the bills. Maybe they truly believed that the terror act they committed would bring them closer to God.

I guess the topic creates more questions that it answers, but as you say, that creates great discussion.




Well I'm not against science at all. I post this while doing 4 other things. In the other post where you asked me to clarify something I replied more clearly about science. Science is good, but we are still dealing with humans, with all kinds of issues and thought processes. So no there is no way I 'against science and education'

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Reply #17 posted 08/18/20 7:38am

CherryMoon57

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In an ideal world, there would be no killing, no lying, no abuse, no gossip, no envy, no hatred, etc. But this is not an ideal world and in order for everyone to co-exist, there have to be some rules to protect others. To put limits on what people can do and to avoid actions going too far and endangering others.

I agree with what some have said about parenting, but no parent is perfect either, there is always a reason or another source leading to someone's bad deeds and if we all go back to the original source, it all comes down to when disobedience to God allowed sin to enter this world. We are all familiar with this, since most people will agree on values such as honesty, integrity, loyalty, charity, etc as being good and their opposites as being on the more 'evil' side of the spectrum of human characteristics. I believe humans have an innate sense of values but there are exceptions.

When someone does not have access to the right life conditions or if something serious occurs earlier on in their life and that is left unaddressed, there will be problems. Society needs to address these issues and I think a lot of organisations are trying to do the best they can with regards to mental health, drug isssues, juvenile crime, homelessness, etc. But when the issues are deeply rooted, these can be hard to fix and a deeper approach is necessary to turn someone's life around.

Spiritual and holistic approaches have proven to work a lot better than emprisonment or punishment. But as Old Friend said, people also make their own choices and are sometimes too far gone into their issues to accept the help they need. This is why in some instances prison will be the only way to stop crime and keep society safe, but I do agree that the justice system could be improved.

I used to work as an interpreter for a juvenile prison who detained young (French-speaking) Africans who had illegally entered the UK. One of them was a 16-year-old boy who, when asked why he had come here, said that he was hoping to study and become a doctor. Unfortunately he got caught at the border and ended up in prison with real criminals. I really think the law should be more flexible and try to differentiate between different types of 'crimes' in order to give some individuals like him a chance in society, especially if their only crime is to 'be here' and they are willing to make a positive contribution to a country.

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Reply #18 posted 08/18/20 7:54am

OldFriends4Sal
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CherryMoon57 said:

In an ideal world, there would be no killing, no lying, no abuse, no gossip, no envy, no hatred, etc. But this is not an ideal world and in order for everyone to co-exist, there have to be some rules to protect others. To put limits on what people can do and to avoid actions going too far and endangering others.

I agree with what some have said about parenting, but no parent is perfect either, there is always a reason or another source leading to someone's bad deeds and if we all go back to the original source, it all comes down to when disobedience to God allowed sin to enter this world. We are all familiar with this, since most people will agree on values such as honesty, integrity, loyalty, charity, etc as being good and their opposites as being on the more 'evil' side of the spectrum of human characteristics. I believe humans have an innate sense of values but there are exceptions.

When someone does not have access to the right life conditions or if something serious occurs earlier on in their life and that is left unaddressed, there will be problems. Society needs to address these issues and I think a lot of organisations are trying to do the best they can with regards to mental health, drug isssues, juvenile crime, homelessness, etc. But when the issues are deeply rooted, these can be hard to fix and a deeper approach is necessary to turn someone's life around.

Spiritual and holistic approaches have proven to work a lot better than emprisonment or punishment. But as Old Friend said, people also make their own choices and are sometimes too far gone into their issues to accept the help they need. This is why in some instances prison will be the only way to stop crime and keep society safe, but I do agree that the justice system could be improved.

I used to work as an interpreter for a juvenile prison who detained young (French-speaking) Africans who had illegally entered the UK. One of them was a 16-year-old boy who, when asked why he had come here, said that he was hoping to study and become a doctor. Unfortunately he got caught at the border and ended up in prison with real criminals. I really think the law should be more flexible and try to differentiate between different types of 'crimes' in order to give some individuals like him a chance in society, especially if their only crime is to 'be here' and they are willing to make a positive contribution to a country.

In the states we do have different offender level prison spaces. Juvi, white collar, temp holding cells etc I believe in certain prisons they have divided areas per crime offense.

.

In certain states the bail reform laws are weak and dangerous, the intention is good but who they are being told to let out, should not in too many instances. I thought it was for someone driving without a license to be given a court appearance and let go, not for someone who breaks into a place and steals. They just keep doing the same thing.

.

When I think of Freddie Gray(Baltimore) the troubling part of this is that he was a drug dealer.
I don't care to what degree, drug dealing leads to other abuses and crimes: destruction of someones life, someones family, death/OD, further gang issues, rape/molestation etc I'm not saying he death should have happened, but this is someone in his own way contributed to the chaos and ills of that community. People don't think of how many lives were destroyed set in motion by Freddie's drug deals. But he is pitied as he died, but what about all of the victims of his actions.


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Reply #19 posted 08/18/20 9:49am

DiminutiveRock
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maplenpg said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


I would agee with this. Parents who are both working mutiple jobs to make ends meet are in need of assitance.

I'd go further, parents need to be given assistance from multiple angles - emotional, physical and financial help to enable the next generation to create the best opportunities possible and to get out of the rut many generations get stuck in. Your comment reminded me of this cartoon https://www.rnz.co.nz/new...on-a-plate


Thanks for posting - great social commentary in that comic!



[Edited 8/18/20 10:44am]

VOTE....EARLY
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Reply #20 posted 08/18/20 10:23am

CherryMoon57

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OldFriends4Sale said:

CherryMoon57 said:

In an ideal world, there would be no killing, no lying, no abuse, no gossip, no envy, no hatred, etc. But this is not an ideal world and in order for everyone to co-exist, there have to be some rules to protect others. To put limits on what people can do and to avoid actions going too far and endangering others.

I agree with what some have said about parenting, but no parent is perfect either, there is always a reason or another source leading to someone's bad deeds and if we all go back to the original source, it all comes down to when disobedience to God allowed sin to enter this world. We are all familiar with this, since most people will agree on values such as honesty, integrity, loyalty, charity, etc as being good and their opposites as being on the more 'evil' side of the spectrum of human characteristics. I believe humans have an innate sense of values but there are exceptions.

When someone does not have access to the right life conditions or if something serious occurs earlier on in their life and that is left unaddressed, there will be problems. Society needs to address these issues and I think a lot of organisations are trying to do the best they can with regards to mental health, drug isssues, juvenile crime, homelessness, etc. But when the issues are deeply rooted, these can be hard to fix and a deeper approach is necessary to turn someone's life around.

Spiritual and holistic approaches have proven to work a lot better than emprisonment or punishment. But as Old Friend said, people also make their own choices and are sometimes too far gone into their issues to accept the help they need. This is why in some instances prison will be the only way to stop crime and keep society safe, but I do agree that the justice system could be improved.

I used to work as an interpreter for a juvenile prison who detained young (French-speaking) Africans who had illegally entered the UK. One of them was a 16-year-old boy who, when asked why he had come here, said that he was hoping to study and become a doctor. Unfortunately he got caught at the border and ended up in prison with real criminals. I really think the law should be more flexible and try to differentiate between different types of 'crimes' in order to give some individuals like him a chance in society, especially if their only crime is to 'be here' and they are willing to make a positive contribution to a country.

In the states we do have different offender level prison spaces. Juvi, white collar, temp holding cells etc I believe in certain prisons they have divided areas per crime offense.

.

In certain states the bail reform laws are weak and dangerous, the intention is good but who they are being told to let out, should not in too many instances. I thought it was for someone driving without a license to be given a court appearance and let go, not for someone who breaks into a place and steals. They just keep doing the same thing.

.

When I think of Freddie Gray(Baltimore) the troubling part of this is that he was a drug dealer.
I don't care to what degree, drug dealing leads to other abuses and crimes: destruction of someones life, someones family, death/OD, further gang issues, rape/molestation etc I'm not saying his death should have happened, but this is someone in his own way contributed to the chaos and ills of that community. People don't think of how many lives were destroyed set in motion by Freddie's drug deals. But he is pitied as he died, but what about all of the victims of his actions.



I am not sure exactely what the set up was for the illegal immigrants in that prison as I was only allowed to meet with them in a separate area to where they were normally staying. But it's still a prison and their only crime was to reach the UK. I think that alone demonstrated a certain kind of determination and they could have been considered for some careers where resilience is key.

That said, I do agree that the law can be too weak sometimes. Did you see that article about Chicago I posted in the other thread about defunding the police (the last post). Apparently they've risen the threshhold for felony shoplifting From $300 to $1,000. That's literaly inviting thieves.

Freddie Gray was no angel for sure. What you say here highlights the real criminality of drugs. This is why I am neither in favour of decriminalising drugs or the portraying of drug dealers as innocent people. It erases that sense of value and responsibility and creates the wrong kind of role models for younger generations.

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Reply #21 posted 08/18/20 1:08pm

v10letblues

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maplenpg said:

v10letblues said:

It starts at home. That's the best way. Good parenting, We can't think we can dump everything on the government.

Teachers are now being tasked to teach manners and politeness, Some kids come to school beng little pieces of trash taking away from the education of classrooms.

Parents need to take far more responsibility for their kids behavior.

25% of the prison population have been in care. They have no concept of what it is to be parented. Many have been raised by an endless rota of care home workers and foster parents who come and go through their childhood. Some have mental health problems caused by their mother drinking or taking drugs through the pregnancy. These kids have the odds stacked against them from the moment they leave the womb.

[Edited 8/17/20 23:53pm]

Good point.

And prisons are also a social program. One that can do a whole lot better. Especially with prisoners that will be let out back into society.

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Reply #22 posted 08/18/20 2:13pm

jjhunsecker

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PRYOR ! Sheer genius

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/w...7DhFhzkjcA[/youtube]

#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #23 posted 08/18/20 4:12pm

Graycap23

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Were there prisons before colonization?

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #24 posted 08/18/20 4:40pm

OldFriends4Sal
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Graycap23 said:

Were there prisons before colonization?

yes. the human population was much smaller then

But in many place around the world certain crimes also ended in death public shaming beatings exile or removing of a body part

https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/prisons-and-imprisonment-ancient-world-punishments-used-maintain-public-020588

Prisons and Imprisonment in the Ancient World: Punishments Used to Maintain Public Order

One of the most well-known forms of punishment today is imprisonment. One could argue that for any society to function properly, public order has to be maintained. This is an important function of the state and one of the ways this goal is achieved is through laws. Inevitably, laws have also been broken since they emerged, and punishments have been provided either as a form of retribution or as a deterrent to would-be law-breakers. The history of imprisonment can be traced back all the way to the ancient world.

Mesopotamian Imprisonment

The earliest known use of imprisonment as a form of punishment can be traced to the Mesopotamian civilization. In the oldest known surviving law code, the Code of Ur-Nammu , it is written that:

If a man commits a kidnapping, he is to be imprisoned and pay 15 shekels of silver.

In another Mesopotamian law code, the famous Code of Hammurabi , it is written:

If anyone has a claim for corn or money upon another and imprisons him; if the prisoner dies in prison a natural death, the case shall go no further.
If the prisoner dies in prison from blows or maltreatment, the master of the prisoner shall convict the merchant before the judge. If he was a free-born man, the son of the merchant shall be put to death; if it was a slave, he shall pay one-third of a mina of gold, and all that the master of the prisoner gave he shall forfeit.





https://see.news/interest...ent-egypt/

Interested in Knowing More about Prisons in Ancient Egypt?



Egyptian archaeologist Hussein Abdel Basir said, “Prisons were referred to in many ancient Egyptian texts. Prophet Joseph’s story is the most famous evidence that Egypt had prisons. Joseph stayed few years in jail, and when he was proved innocent, he was honorably released. Here we can see the role of justice to implement rightness and confront injustice.”

Jails in ancient Egypt worked on rehabilitation to convert criminals to ethical persons that benefit and can adapt with the Egyptian society, this society that sanctified “Almaat” justice.

http://www.prisonhistory....f-prisons/

From the birth of modern civilization in 3rd millennia BC, almost every major ancient civilization used concept of prisons as a mean to detain and remove personal freedoms of incarcerated people. In those early periods of history, prisons were often used as a temporary stopgap before sentencing to death or life of slavery, but as time went on and our civilization developed, prisons started morphing into correctional facilitiesthat started implementing the concept of rehabilitation and reform of prisoners. In addition of holding convicted or suspected criminals, prisons were often used for holding political prisoners, enemies of the state and prisoners of war.

The earliest records of prisons come from the 1st millennia BC, located on the areas of mighty ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt. During those times, prisons were almost always stationed in the underground dungeons where guilty or suspected criminals spent their life either awaiting death sentence, or a command to become slaves (often working as galley slaves). Exception from that rule comes from the home of modern democracy - Greece. There, prisoners were held in the poorly isolated buildings where they could often be visited by their friends and family. Primary source of their detention were not dungeons, high walls or bars, but simple wooden blocks that were attached to their feet. Ancient Roman Empire however continued to use harsher methods. Their prisons were built almost exclusively underground, with tight and claustrophobic passageways and cells. Prisoners themselves were held either in simple cells or chained to the walls, for life or for time. As slavery was accepted norm in those days, majority of prisoners that were not sentenced to death were sold as slaves or used by the Roman government as workforce. One of the most famous uses for the slaves in Roman Empire was as "gladiators". In addition to fighting in the arena (sometimes after lifetime of training in the special gladiator training houses, or Luduses), many slaves were tasked as a support workforce that enabled smoother run of the popular gladiator business. The most famous Gladiator battleground, the mighty ColosseumArena in Rome had a slave army of 224 slaves that worked daily as a power source of the complicated network of 24 elevators that transported gladiators and their wild animal opponents from the underground dungeons to the arena floor.

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Reply #25 posted 08/18/20 4:46pm

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v10letblues said:

maplenpg said:

25% of the prison population have been in care. They have no concept of what it is to be parented. Many have been raised by an endless rota of care home workers and foster parents who come and go through their childhood. Some have mental health problems caused by their mother drinking or taking drugs through the pregnancy. These kids have the odds stacked against them from the moment they leave the womb.

[Edited 8/17/20 23:53pm]

Good point.

And prisons are also a social program. One that can do a whole lot better. Especially with prisoners that will be let out back into society.

American prisons, certain segmants of the population have free access to the internet, learning trades, college courses, work out equipment, libraries, 'structure & stability'

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Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
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Reply #26 posted 08/18/20 5:51pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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so free Amber Guyger?

Drop all charges against Derek Chauvin?

I stand with Ben and the Moderators!
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Reply #27 posted 08/18/20 6:03pm

v10letblues

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OldFriends4Sale said:

v10letblues said:

Good point.

And prisons are also a social program. One that can do a whole lot better. Especially with prisoners that will be let out back into society.

American prisons, certain segmants of the population have free access to the internet, learning trades, college courses, work out equipment, libraries, 'structure & stability'

Yes. And also a social service for everyone. keeping convited crimals away from society.

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Reply #28 posted 08/18/20 7:16pm

slyjackson

No, we need it, what a naive idea.

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Reply #29 posted 08/18/20 7:17pm

slyjackson

2freaky4church1 said:

The way you truly fight crime: social programs.

Our president here in Mexico thinks the same, but him just as Trump is an idiot who doesn't realize that social programs are not enough.

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