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Reply #120 posted 09/30/20 11:24am

jaawwnn

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Ok DJ, i'm with you up to a point, but let's not start talking about compassion for the third world unless we're actually talking about dismantling the entire economic system most of the world is built upon (which I recognise you might be!).

The global north takes much, MUCH, more than it provides in aid to the global south. This is well documented and is by design, not by accident.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #121 posted 09/30/20 12:23pm

maplenpg

jaawwnn said:

djThunderfunk said:

Anybody high risk needs to be protected. Limit contacts, avoid crowds, wear mask, maintain social distancing, etc. Businesses need to take common sense precautions to protect employees and customers. People in general need to be aware of the dangers, not take unnecessary risks and especially take care around those at high risk. Otherwise, open everything up and let the rest of us keep society going.

Difficult to implement when it comes to public places but I don't particularly disagree. I heard a figure as high as 1 in 4 having what would be considered an underlying condition. We're doing county by county lockdowns here at the moment, as opposed to the entire country. Still unsure if it's working or not. Personally I think money should be spent on good track and trace systems but the government seems reluctant to do this.

@maplenpg what do you think?

[Edited 9/30/20 9:08am]

Okay, so I think we need to look at the East and replicate what they have done, though truthfully I very much doubt this will be possible for reasons I'll explain.

Many Eastern countries have had to deal with viruses before, with SARS and MERS for example. There had been huge investments in the East in how to deal with viruses, whereas this particular area of expertise was largely underfunded in the UK due to a decade of austerity. In short the East were ready for it, much of the West was not. This is worth a read https://www.thelancet.com...9/fulltext

I also think we need to get away from the idea that we need to balance the economy and the virus. If we again look to countries that have driven the virus right down, in fact have extinguished it mostly from their country, they are having life as normal now, no distancing, no masks, and a rapid regrowth of their economies. A zero covid approach is the only way to reopen society as normal, with hard lockdowns for very few cases.

The countries that have done well listened to the WHO guidance to test, test, test. This is absolutely vital to stop the spread. We need to have enough tests and the capacity to process them for everyone who requires one, whether they have symptoms or not. Of course, the less cases, the less tests you need.

But it's not just testing, it's tracing and isolating too. This needed to be much better, much faster. It is the only way to reduce the numbers without national lockdowns (or certainly hard, local lockdowns). This requires a trust in the government, trust with privacy, trust that it is the correct thing to do. Sadly I don't think we have the trust either here or in the US, so I fear test, trace and isolate, which is key, is doomed to fail.

I think we need to accept that young people will want to see their friends and have a drink. I don't think we should demonise this. Instead we need to work out a safe way for them to do it, rather than driving youth culture underground with curfews.

I think we need to compensate those isolating to ensure they isolate, I think we need to stop all but the most essential air travel until we get on top of the numbers. The Eastern countries and New Zealand credit this as being a big part of getting on top of things. Many have airport quarantine hotels that those arriving in the country have to stay in. The air industry should be able to be properly compensated. I know about Thailand's air travel restrictions and they are HARSH, yet Thailand have some of the lowest covid numbers in the world.

Lastly, I think the government here has lost the trust of the people and therefore needs to stand back and let the scientists take the foreground. This is not party political, and because of the shitshow Johnson has done so far, many are ignoring him and his rules. In short he has no authority, peope aren't listening to him. His fellow MPs are no better, always spouting slogans and ignoring the real questions they are asked. And Dominic Cummings will never be forgotten. He needs to go. There should never be one rule for the elite and one for us minions, and yet it seems there is.

FWIW Devi Sridhar is someone I largely align with. She advises Nicola Sturgeon among others. She's worth a follow if you're on Twitter.

[Edited 9/30/20 22:33pm]

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Reply #122 posted 09/30/20 2:24pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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djThunderfunk said:

DiminutiveRocker said:



Look, if people want to go ahead and resume their lives choosing not to wear a mask or social distance, then by all means, feel free to contract and spread the virus - but - take full responsibility if someone dies and they trace it back to you. And if a buisness does not want you to enter without a mask, you must honor that as well. Also, perhaps you should also forfeit medical treatment for covid-19 (should you get it) or at least let those who respected the guidelines get priority treatment. shrug


Sure. And you take responsibility for all the people who starve to death, who die from other illnesses untreated because of covid, who's savings is gone and now they can't send their kids to school or retire, who's businesses close and now they have to fire all their employees, etc...

Stop fighting and blaming. Stop latching on to one extreme idea as if the only alternative is the other, opposite extreme idea.

It is possible to strive to reduce the spread of the virus and strive to maintain the economy so society continues to function.

When the first world shuts down, the third world starves. Where's all the compassion for them?


[Edited 9/30/20 11:10am]



Firstly, I am not blaming anyone and I am talking about Covid-19 in the United States, specifically. If you want to discuss how the Covid-19 virus is affecting the Third World countries, I believe there have been threads about it already.

No one can nor should take responsibility for all the ills (physical, financial and emotional) the virus has caused. I do believe there is a way to try and function safely in society that is most beneficial to all. It is highly contagious and that needs to be the primary fact to embrace when conducting our community activities and businesses.


How I am doing my part: I wear a mask, I social distance when in public. wash my hands the minute I enter my house or touch anything that comes into my house and I do not attend socially irresponsible organzied events or outings. I support my local businesses (shops, restaurants, grocers, etc) in my community and have contributed to GoFundMe drives, but even so - many businesses have had to close their doors because of the nature of the business they could not sustain it safely and/or make enough to keep going and this saddens me deeply. I am fortunate and grateful to be able to work from home, but I am well aware that so many other people cannot and I respect essential workers who have been out there since day one in service to the public during this crisis.




spell check!


[Edited 9/30/20 14:25pm]

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Reply #123 posted 10/01/20 12:48am

maplenpg

Just realised in my much longer post that I didn't address DJ's idea of keeping the vulnerable safe whilst letting everyone else carry on.

I'm afraid I can't agree with it. For me, the approach has to be that we make society safe for all,which means taking a zero covid approach.

As Prof Devi Sridhar says in her tweets:


Shielding debate a distraction from core issues. Countries with better economic & public health outcomes did 3 things:
1. Strict border checks (actually enforced)
2. Robust test/trace/isolate (mass testing & support for isolation)
3. High public trust in govt voluntary guidance.


https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1310849883218292736

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Reply #124 posted 10/01/20 12:58am

maplenpg

DiminutiveRocker said:

djThunderfunk said:


Sure. And you take responsibility for all the people who starve to death, who die from other illnesses untreated because of covid, who's savings is gone and now they can't send their kids to school or retire, who's businesses close and now they have to fire all their employees, etc...

Stop fighting and blaming. Stop latching on to one extreme idea as if the only alternative is the other, opposite extreme idea.

It is possible to strive to reduce the spread of the virus and strive to maintain the economy so society continues to function.

When the first world shuts down, the third world starves. Where's all the compassion for them?


[Edited 9/30/20 11:10am]



Firstly, I am not blaming anyone and I am talking about Covid-19 in the United States, specifically. If you want to discuss how the Covid-19 virus is affecting the Third World countries, I believe there have been threads about it already.

No one can nor should take responsibility for all the ills (physical, financial and emotional) the virus has caused. I do believe there is a way to try and function safely in society that is most beneficial to all. It is highly contagious and that needs to be the primary fact to embrace when conducting our community activities and businesses.


How I am doing my part: I wear a mask, I social distance when in public. wash my hands the minute I enter my house or touch anything that comes into my house and I do not attend socially irresponsible organzied events or outings. I support my local businesses (shops, restaurants, grocers, etc) in my community and have contributed to GoFundMe drives, but even so - many businesses have had to close their doors because of the nature of the business they could not sustain it safely and/or make enough to keep going and this saddens me deeply. I am fortunate and grateful to be able to work from home, but I am well aware that so many other people cannot and I respect essential workers who have been out there since day one in service to the public during this crisis.




spell check!


[Edited 9/30/20 14:25pm]

To the bold. YES, and with robust systems in place there is no reason the US and UK (among others) has to let this virus cause this much disruption. They simply have failed to take advice from countries who have dealt with this sort of thing before, and have put the economy before lives. There are now plenty of countries in the world who are on top of this virus and are living somewhat normal lives. People need to take it seriously, or we will never get on top of it. Sadly I hate how much faith people are putting in the 'We'll carry on in this wierd abnormal way of living until they invent me a vaccine' approach. I'd far rather just get it suppressed now.

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Reply #125 posted 10/01/20 6:14am

djThunderfunk

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maplenpg said:

Just realised in my much longer post that I didn't address DJ's idea of keeping the vulnerable safe whilst letting everyone else carry on.

I'm afraid I can't agree with it. For me, the approach has to be that we make society safe for all,which means taking a zero covid approach.

As Prof Devi Sridhar says in her tweets:


Shielding debate a distraction from core issues. Countries with better economic & public health outcomes did 3 things:
1. Strict border checks (actually enforced)
2. Robust test/trace/isolate (mass testing & support for isolation)
3. High public trust in govt voluntary guidance.


https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1310849883218292736


Sure. That makes sense. I mean if SOME people are vulnerable why should anyone else be able to live normal lives?

Bernie Grundman on MASTERING:
https://prince.org/msg/15/464719
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Reply #126 posted 10/01/20 6:23am

maplenpg

djThunderfunk said:

maplenpg said:

Just realised in my much longer post that I didn't address DJ's idea of keeping the vulnerable safe whilst letting everyone else carry on.

I'm afraid I can't agree with it. For me, the approach has to be that we make society safe for all,which means taking a zero covid approach.

As Prof Devi Sridhar says in her tweets:


Shielding debate a distraction from core issues. Countries with better economic & public health outcomes did 3 things:
1. Strict border checks (actually enforced)
2. Robust test/trace/isolate (mass testing & support for isolation)
3. High public trust in govt voluntary guidance.


https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1310849883218292736


Sure. That makes sense. I mean if SOME people are vulnerable why should anyone else be able to live normal lives?

Please watch this less than 90 second video. It's how I feel on the topic. https://twitter.com/DrZoe...0467798018

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Reply #127 posted 10/01/20 6:59am

djThunderfunk

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maplenpg said:

djThunderfunk said:


Sure. That makes sense. I mean if SOME people are vulnerable why should anyone else be able to live normal lives?

Please watch this less than 90 second video. It's how I feel on the topic. https://twitter.com/DrZoe...0467798018


I get it. You "feel" that to protect the vulnerable it's acceptabe to risk the collapse of all of society. No need to explain further.

Bernie Grundman on MASTERING:
https://prince.org/msg/15/464719
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Reply #128 posted 10/01/20 7:12am

maplenpg

djThunderfunk said:

maplenpg said:

Please watch this less than 90 second video. It's how I feel on the topic. https://twitter.com/DrZoe...0467798018


I get it. You "feel" that to protect the vulnerable it's acceptabe to risk the collapse of all of society. No need to explain further.

Quite the opposite. I'm for ridding the virus and living 'normal' lives again. As many countries around the world have.

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Reply #129 posted 10/01/20 9:04am

DiminutiveRock
er

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maplenpg said:

djThunderfunk said:


I get it. You "feel" that to protect the vulnerable it's acceptabe to risk the collapse of all of society. No need to explain further.

Quite the opposite. I'm for ridding the virus and living 'normal' lives again. As many countries around the world have.


^ that's what we all want.

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Reply #130 posted 10/01/20 10:51am

maplenpg

DiminutiveRocker said:

maplenpg said:

Quite the opposite. I'm for ridding the virus and living 'normal' lives again. As many countries around the world have.


^ that's what we all want.

Yup. I also think if the top scientists in our respective countries can't agree on a best strategy, then we the people are never going to agree as we are all drawing from different personal perspectives. It's another thing the East (and some Western countries) got right, they had a strategy and they stuck to it. They are now reaping the rewards. Trump should be learning from China rather than criticizing them. Countries like Italy have shown that even if they got it wrong at first, it's never too late to turn it around.

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Reply #131 posted 10/01/20 11:30am

DiminutiveRock
er

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maplenpg said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


^ that's what we all want.

Yup. I also think if the top scientists in our respective countries can't agree on a best strategy, then we the people are never going to agree as we are all drawing from different personal perspectives. It's another thing the East (and some Western countries) got right, they had a strategy and they stuck to it. They are now reaping the rewards. Trump should be learning from China rather than criticizing them. Countries like Italy have shown that even if they got it wrong at first, it's never too late to turn it around.

It's not too late for the U.S. despite the horrific loss of 208K lives. This pandemic was not going to breeze through without doing some severe damage - it was our responsibility as a national... hell, world community to do what we could to mitigate that damage which includes not only the loss of lives - but jobs, businesses and livelihoods. The more we let this virus spread the worse it will get on all fronts until there is an effective and well distributed vaccine. and the numbers only go down.

The numbers of infected and dying are going up, folks - why is that? Because we are not all not the same page - there has not been and there is NO LEADERSHIP in this fight, just chaos, division and loss.

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Reply #132 posted 10/01/20 6:16pm

PennyPurple

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Hope Hicks tests positive for COVID.

She IS having symptoms and has been in close contact with trump, the last few days.

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Reply #133 posted 10/01/20 8:06pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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PennyPurple said:

Hope Hicks tests positive for COVID.

She IS having symptoms and has been in close contact with trump, the last few days.

And his entire team - in the white house, on air force 1, marine 1 - -

According to CDC guidelines all of them should quarantine for 14 days.

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Reply #134 posted 10/01/20 10:11pm

SoulAlive

Trump and Melania have tested positive for COVID-19
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Reply #135 posted 10/02/20 1:52am

SoulAlive

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Reply #136 posted 10/02/20 4:35am

PennyPurple

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Be Best. Fake news. It's just the flu. It is what it is. Let's send everyone back to work. Let's send millions of children back to school. I refuse to wear a mask. Inject bleach into the lungs. Only the old will die. COVID numbers are fake. We don't need testing. Stop the testing. Keep it a secret, don't panic...



Hmmm.....I feel for the ones who drank the kool-aid.



Welcome to the real world.

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Reply #137 posted 10/02/20 4:35am

PennyPurple

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lol

SoulAlive said:

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Reply #138 posted 10/02/20 6:21am

DiminutiveRock
er

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PennyPurple said:

Be Best. Fake news. It's just the flu. It is what it is. Let's send everyone back to work. Let's send millions of children back to school. I refuse to wear a mask. Inject bleach into the lungs. Only the old will die. COVID numbers are fake. We don't need testing. Stop the testing. Keep it a secret, don't panic...



Hmmm.....I feel for the ones who drank the kool-aid.



Welcome to the real world.



Wearing a mask, keeping socially distant, washing your hands and not shaking hands REDUCES TRANSMISSION.

Anyone NOT doing this stands a good chance of getting it.

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Reply #139 posted 10/02/20 10:28am

DiminutiveRock
er

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United States

Total cases
7.31M
+46,459



Deaths

208K

+847

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Reply #140 posted 10/02/20 7:22pm

PennyPurple

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Kellyanne Conway has now tested positive.

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Reply #141 posted 10/02/20 8:21pm

PennyPurple

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Kelly Annes daughter ratted her mom out. LOL



PHOTO/ Here's where Kellyanne Conway—who we now know, via her daughter, has COVID-19—was sitting at the Amy Coney Barrett event at the White House:


Image

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Reply #142 posted 10/03/20 4:45pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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PennyPurple said:

Kelly Annes daughter ratted her mom out. LOL



PHOTO/ Here's where Kellyanne Conway—who we now know, via her daughter, has COVID-19—was sitting at the Amy Coney Barrett event at the White House:


Image



They go maskless and do not socially distant - nice way to keep their families safe. Idiots, all of them.

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Reply #143 posted 10/03/20 5:17pm

PennyPurple

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I can't understand why the kids didn't have masks on???

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Reply #144 posted 10/03/20 11:32pm

DiminutiveRock
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PennyPurple said:

I can't understand why the kids didn't have masks on???



Because trump's white house is delusional and stupid.

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Reply #145 posted 10/05/20 11:08am

DiminutiveRock
er

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United States

Deaths

210K

+332




thanks, trump

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Reply #146 posted 10/06/20 7:19am

DiminutiveRock
er

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New CDC Guidelines say you can contract the virus from more than 6 feet from someone indoors if an infected person is not wearing a mask.


The FDA wants to follow the people who are part of the vaccine test group to be folllowed for 2 months (faster than any test group has ever followed) before granting an emergency approval to release it. The corrupt WH wants to block that - because the safety of the American people is apparently not their priority in this process.
neutral

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Reply #147 posted 10/08/20 3:40pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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BREAKING NEWS

The virus “cure” that...condemned.

Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:26 PM EST

In June 2019, the Trump administration suspended federal funding for most new scientific research involving fetal tissue derived from abortions.

Mr. Trump last week received Regeneron’s cocktail of monoclonal antibodies. To develop the antibodies, Regeneron relied on 293T, a human cell line once derived from fetal tissue.

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Reply #148 posted 10/09/20 2:58pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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In case anyone cares... people are STILL dying every day from this virus.

United States

Total cases

7.64M

+56,137

Deaths

213K

+928

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Reply #149 posted 10/10/20 8:13pm

benni

TweetyV6 said:

maplenpg said:


Hey, pssssst... those 200,000 actually are 12,000... a whopping 0,004% of the US population.

CDC says so.


Comorbidities

Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups.

In 2019 38,800 people died in trafic accidents. (in the US)

I would ban cars.


[Edited 9/30/20 0:38am]


Tweety, the problem with that quote is that it is stating ONLY Covid. CDC has been stating all along that those with pre-existing conditions were the ones that were at risk. The remaining 94% of cases were instances of comorbidity (the existence of two or more conditions or illnesses in a patient). This does not exclude COVID-19, but combines it with other illnesses, often triggered by the new coronavirus itself. It's just that Covid was not the only condition they had. Covid exacerbated the other conditions. If you look at the table that was included with the CDC's "6%" statement you would find:

The table’s left-most column, labeled “Conditions Contributing to Deaths where COVID-19 was listed on the death certificate,” includes both serious complications from COVID-19 infection -- such as respiratory failure, pneumonia, and adult respiratory distress syndrome ( here ) – as well as pre-existing conditions that increase the risk of severe illness from COVID-19, such as diabetes and obesity ( here ).

To give an example:

My daughter is at risk for developing my clotting condition. She's never had a clot. My condition is hereditary, however, and usually there is a catalyst that kicks the condition in and causes that first clot. It has been shown that numerous people who develop Covid have died from blood clots. These are people that have never had clots, and young people too. In some of them, it could likely be shown that they had an underlying undiagnosed clotting condition. In others, it was just due to the Covid actually causing the clots because the person was too sick to move around (immobility can cause a clot to develop), etc. Now, for my daughter, we know she is at risk of developing this clotting condition. If she gets Covid, there is a chance the Covid could act as a catalyst in her. Therefore, in those situations Covid was the culprit that caused the fatal condition the person actually died from. Those that died from a pulmonary embolism were listed as the main cause of death as "Pulmonary embolism" with Covid listed as the UNDERLYING condition - that is the condition that caused the primary cause of death.

This has been how death certificates have worked for a very long time. It's nothing new. The primary cause (or immediate cause) of death is listed first and then underlying conditions are listed secondary (the catalyst if you will). Without that underlying cause, it is unlikely the main cause of death would have occurred. My grandmother who died from a pulmonay embolism while giving birth to my mom, her death certificate listed pulmonary embolism as the primary cause of death, but childbirth was listed as the underlying condition. (The condition that caused the primary cause of death.)

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