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Thread started 08/03/20 12:37pm

OldFriends4Sal
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#Defund Police discussion

I'm creating this for a central thread of discussion. There were a few scattered discussion that I think can be covered here, for example legalizing sex work and drug use.
One thing about too many of these polls, is that I wish they would include at least Asians, Multiracials and Native Americans.

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Please no fighting, not ganging up, don't make it personal, follow the rules, keep it educational.

I'm hungry I will snip and temp ban in a New York minute
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#Defund Police
https://www.cato.org/blog...ing-reform
June 4, 2020 11:57AM
Americans Don't Want to #Defund Police, Instead They Agree on Reform

By Emily Ekins

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Connor Friedersdor writes in the Atlantic that police reform is popular, while rioting is not. He's right. While only 16% of Americans favor cutting funding for police departments, the Cato Criminal Justice National Survey found that Americans across racial and political backgrounds support a variety of policy changes that reformers say would help mend fences between police and the communities they serve.

It's true that Americans of different racial backgrounds have vastly different perceptions of police. Strong majorities of African Americans believe police are too quick to resort to deadly force (73%) and aren't held accountable for misconduct if it happens (64%). On the other hand, whites believe police use deadly force only when necessary (65%) and generally are held accountable for bad behavior (57%). But the racial divide in perceptions largely vanishes when it comes to policy reforms. The Cato survey found:


1.) 79% of Americans support having outside law enforcement agencies investigate police misconduct, rather than leave it to the department to handle. It may surprise some readers to learn that most jurisdictions in the U.S. allow police departments to investigate and discipline their own officers. Instead, most Americans think having some outside oversight could enhance accountability. Majorities across racial groups support this: 81% of whites, 82% of blacks, and 66% of Latinos support outside investigations of misconduct.

2.) 65% of Americans believe racial profiling is commonly used, but nearly the same share oppose it. 63% oppose the practice of police stopping motorists or pedestrians of certain racial or ethnic groups if police believe that these groups are more likely than others to commit certain types of crimes. 62% of whites, 77% of blacks, and 62% of Hispanics all oppose racial profiling.



3.) 68% support de‐​escalation training for police to aid police officers during confrontations with citizens. 62% of whites, 81% of blacks, and 70% of Hispanics support providing this additional training to officers.

4.) 53% think local police departments using military weapons and armored vehicles "goes too far" and aren't necessary for law enforcement purposes. Presumably, these same Americans think police ought not to use such equipment. 53% of whites, 58% of blacks, and 51% of Hispanics think local police using military weapons goes too far.

5.) 89% support the police wearing body cameras. Americans don't think this is just for civilians' benefit—but for police officers too. Nearly three‐​fourths (74%) think body cameras equally protect police officers who wear them and citizens who interact with them. 90% of whites, 89% of blacks, and 87% of Hispanics support police wearing body cameras.

6.) 73% support a law requiring police officers to notify citizens when a stop is voluntary and they are free to decline a search, including 74% of whites, 63% of blacks, and 74% of Latinos.

7.) 54% favor treating drug offenses like minor traffic violations with small fines rather than as felonies. Some scholars believe cooling the drug war could reduce the number of high stakes encounters between police and communities thereby helping to rebuild trust. 54% of whites, 59% of blacks, and 52% of Hispanics support re‐​categorizing drug offenses from felonies to civil offenses.

8.) 84% support ending a practice called civil asset forfeiture in which police may take money or property of a person they suspect may have been involved in a crime before the person is convicted. 84% of whites, 86% of blacks, and 80% of Hispanics think police should only be allowed to seize property after a conviction.



This is only parts to start the discussion, read the full information at the link


Cover_Policing%20in%20America2.jpg?itok=N8jmJVHx
https://www.facebook.com/506115211/videos/10163335391835212/

2017 President Obama addressed...protestors about working together and acknowledging that bridges needed to be built.

At a memorial service for the slain five police officers at Meyerson Symphony Center in Dallas, he said "When anyone paints all police as biased or bigoted, we undermine those officers we depend on for our safety."

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Reply #1 posted 08/05/20 11:07am

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LA ballot measure would shift nearly $900 million away from law enforcement: report
Brie Stimson 11 hrs ago

The Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors Tuesday voted to include a charter amendment on the ballot in November to would redistribute $880 million from law enforcement to community programs.

The money would come from the county's unrestricted general funds, according to FOX 11 in Los Angeles.

The board voted 4-1 to include the amendment, called "Reimagining L.A. County" which would permanently move 10 percent in general funds from law enforcement to programs like housing, mental health services and other programs aimed at alternatives to jail, FOX 11 reported.

As while as being the police and sheriff's department, the funds would also be restricted from use in the district attorneys' office or the courts.

The funding shift would be phased in through 2024, according to LA Streetsblog.

Supervisor Kathryn Barger, who said the vote was rushed and lacked transparency, said she opposed the measure because it would hurt the county in a bad economy, cut lead to county jobs cut and restrict future boards, FOX 11 reported. She added that it was rushed and lacked transparency.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/...ocid=ientp

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Reply #2 posted 08/05/20 11:32am

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https://www.foxnews.com/m...und-police

Marine veteran Joey Jones: Surging gun sales 'common sense' amid push to defund police

Over 2 million new gun owners reported in first half of 2020

"Millions of Americans are discovering how important it is to have the right of self-defense amid the push to defund the police," Fox News contributor Joey Jones said on Tuesday.

He said guns are selling out quickly at stores.

"I've been to my local gun store. A good friend of mine, an Army Ranger, owns it and they're always busy and there is nothing on the shelves. He has over a half a million dollars in inventory on backorder waiting to come in so he can sell it," the Marine veteran told "Fox & Friends."

Jones said purchasing a firearm due to the coronavirus pandemic and the push to curtail law enforcement is "common sense."

The surge in gun sales comes amid increasing unrest after the George Floyd protests, along with spikes in violence in cities like New York and Chicago.

...

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Reply #3 posted 08/05/20 5:30pm

djThunderfunk

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According to a new Gallup poll. 81% of black Americans do not agree with defunding the police. Some want more cops. 83% of Hispanics agree.

https://www.newsweek.com/...ll-1523093


https://nypost.com/2020/0...ding-cops/



Censorship is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it or how noble their motivation.
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Reply #4 posted 08/05/20 6:17pm

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Seattle City Council Deals Blow to BLM, Rejects Police Defunding

Kate Briquelet 2 hrs ago

The Daily Beast logoSeattle City Council Deals Blow to BLM, Rejects Police Defunding

A majority of Seattle’s City Council on Wednesday voted down a proposal to slash the police department’s remaining 2020 budget by 50 percent.

The vote by the budget committee—which came one day after the city’s mayor and police chief held a press conference to criticize the proposal—was a setback for Black Lives Matter and anti-police brutality advocates who’ve pushed to defund departme...y services, including housing and youth programs.

The plan, proposed by council member Kshama Sawant, would have cut $54 million from the Seattle PD immediately through layoffs and reallocated it to programs, including $34 million for affordable housing. Sawant was the only member to vote in favor of the proposal, while another council member abstained and the remaining seven voted against it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us...d=msedgntp

a group of people standing in front of a crowd: Stephen Brashear/Getty

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Reply #5 posted 08/05/20 6:20pm

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New chief of embattled Colorado force wants cops to see bias

By COLLEEN SLEVIN, Associated Press 3 hrs ago



DENVER (AP) — The new leader of a suburban Denver police department whose officers put Elijah McClain in a chokehold before the young Black man died last year and handcuffed Black girls over the weekend said Wednesday that she wants to empower police to veer away from strict training protocols and think about whether they are acting on their biases.

Vanessa Wilson, who was named chief of the Aurora Police Department this week after serving as its interim leader, told The Associated Press that she is committed to rebuilding the public’s trust. She takes the job as the agency reels from encounters with Black people that have drawn widespread attention on social media and triggered a series of investigations.

https://www.msn.com/en-us...d=msedgntp

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Reply #6 posted 08/06/20 8:57am

jaawwnn

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djThunderfunk said:

According to a new Gallup poll. 81% of black Americans do not agree with defunding the police. Some want more cops. 83% of Hispanics agree.

https://www.newsweek.com/...ll-1523093


https://nypost.com/2020/0...ding-cops/



I think that's a hugely important poll.

I'm all for restructuring how the police work, and stopping endless spending on military equipment, but "defund" is so vague. Defund how? Where? Do what with the money instead? It needs specifics.

People want to feel safe, and want to be able to call the police when they have to. At the same time you have the highest incararation rate in the world by a long shot, not good, and not necessary.

Obviously none of this affects me directly, our own police force is unarmed over here and imho the US should think of heading that way eventually , but it does affect us indirectly as we take a lot of cues from the US, and big pressure groups with money are a global force.

Just some of my thoughts anyway shrug

[Edited 8/6/20 8:58am]

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Reply #7 posted 08/06/20 9:22am

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jaawwnn said:

djThunderfunk said:

According to a new Gallup poll. 81% of black Americans do not agree with defunding the police. Some want more cops. 83% of Hispanics agree.

https://www.newsweek.com/...ll-1523093


https://nypost.com/2020/0...ding-cops/



I think that's a hugely important poll.

I'm all for restructuring how the police work, and stopping endless spending on military equipment, but "defund" is so vague. Defund how? Where? Do what with the money instead? It needs specifics.

People want to feel safe, and want to be able to call the police when they have to. At the same time you have the highest incararation rate in the world by a long shot, not good, and not necessary.

Obviously none of this affects me directly, our own police force is unarmed over here and imho the US should think of heading that way eventually , but it does affect us indirectly as we take a lot of cues from the US, and big pressure groups with money are a global force.

Just some of my thoughts anyway shrug

[Edited 8/6/20 8:58am]

Good points.

I've been thinking of what 'freedom' is actually and how it's viewed in America, in other countries etc and there is a problem there. It's something I want to talk about soon, but our varying ideas of freedom 'in America' at least, is problematic, and why I cannot see an unarmed police force in the US. This also is in connection with an overall idea of what is a human condition. Do psych wards become the new it place, do we build 'safe space facilities' to house people with issues.


#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
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Reply #8 posted 08/07/20 11:02am

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OldFriends4Sale said:




The plan, proposed by council member Kshama Sawant, would have cut $54 million from the Seattle PD immediately through layoffs and reallocated it to programs, including $34 million for affordable housing. Sawant was the only member to vote in favor of the proposal, while another council member abstained and the remaining seven voted against it.


lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

That woman is fucking clownshoes

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

Ansd the hilarious part is that if it had passed, she herself probably would have retained some form of private security.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

[Edited 8/7/20 11:03am]

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Reply #9 posted 08/08/20 7:34am

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guitarslinger44 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:




The plan, proposed by council member Kshama Sawant, would have cut $54 million from the Seattle PD immediately through layoffs and reallocated it to programs, including $34 million for affordable housing. Sawant was the only member to vote in favor of the proposal, while another council member abstained and the remaining seven voted against it.


lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

That woman is fucking clownshoes

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

Ansd the hilarious part is that if it had passed, she herself probably would have retained some form of private security.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

[Edited 8/7/20 11:03am]

People know what's out there. Many mayors know there are gangs and drug dealers waiting to move in and take over.

Some of this is an idea of 'freedom' police represent the Government(whether Democratic or Republican) and people push against government. Especially the 'don't tread of me' people

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Reply #10 posted 08/08/20 7:35am

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https://progressive.org/p...hm-200721/

No More Cops in Minneapolis Schools? Not Quite

The Twin Cities didn’t get cops out of schools. It just gave them a new name.

by Sarah Lahm

July 21, 2020

The murder of George Floyd at the hands of a Minneapolis police officer on May 25 sparked international outrage, including weeks of protest against police brutality and the criminalization of Black and brown people.

t also paved the way for the removal of police officers from public schools around the country—something education and civil rights activists have spent years fighting for.

In June, school districts from Denver to Oakland acted swiftly to end contracts with police departments as unrest over Floyd’s killing spread. This is a startling turn of events, given how long advocates have been pushing for the removal of police from schools, seemingly to no avail.

Students across the country—and especially students from marginalized communities—have been subject to increased security measures in the past two decades, including a greater reliance on school resource officers (SROs), due in part to the rise of school shootings.

Students of color are far more likely than white students to be pushed out of schools and into the criminal justice system. They are more likely to be suspended, expelled, and arrested, studies show.

Graffiti_Abolish_the_police,_George_Floyd_protest,_Minneapolis,_MN,_June,_2020.jpg

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
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Reply #11 posted 08/08/20 2:51pm

uPtoWnNY

djThunderfunk said:

According to a new Gallup poll. 81% of black Americans do not agree with defunding the police. Some want more cops. 83% of Hispanics agree.

https://www.newsweek.com/...ll-1523093


https://nypost.com/2020/0...ding-cops/



Count me as part of that 81%. It's plain common sense. No matter who you are or where you live, you want to feel safe. We don't need less police in a city like NY, with all these knucklehead lowlife wannabe gangstas running aroud. My father and brother dealt with that when they wore the shield.

Reform, yes,,,,,defund, no.

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Reply #12 posted 08/08/20 3:00pm

jjhunsecker

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Legalize all drugs, and a lot of the problems will go away with crime and violence. The gangs would have no reason to exist, and nothing to fight over. And most importantly, innocent people will not get hurt caught in the middle of gang violence
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #13 posted 08/08/20 3:42pm

IanRG

uPtoWnNY said:

djThunderfunk said:

According to a new Gallup poll. 81% of black Americans do not agree with defunding the police. Some want more cops. 83% of Hispanics agree.

https://www.newsweek.com/...ll-1523093


https://nypost.com/2020/0...ding-cops/



Count me as part of that 81%. It's plain common sense. No matter who you are or where you live, you want to feel safe. We don't need less police in a city like NY, with all these knucklehead lowlife wannabe gangstas running aroud. My father and brother dealt with that when they wore the shield.

Reform, yes,,,,,defund, no.

.

Agreed.

.

As has been discussed in several threads before, the term "Defund the Police" is a bad term. To some it means what it literally says. This scares most people. However, "Reform the Police" is necessary and can be done so people (including the Police) are safer, crime is not given a free run and people with mental issues etc are better handled rather than passed on as a criminal justice issue.

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Reply #14 posted 08/09/20 5:57am

djThunderfunk

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jjhunsecker said:

Legalize all drugs, and a lot of the problems will go away with crime and violence. The gangs would have no reason to exist, and nothing to fight over. And most importantly, innocent people will not get hurt caught in the middle of gang violence


With all sincerity, I 100% agree with this.

If there is no contraband to search for, or to worry about being found, conflict between law enforcement and citizens would be almost nonexistent.


Censorship is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is doing it or how noble their motivation.
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Reply #15 posted 08/09/20 8:19am

CherryMoon57

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'Abolish the Police? Those Who Survived the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

What is it like when a city abandons a neighborhood and the police vanish? Business owners describe a harrowing experience of calling for help and being left all alone.


  • Aug. 7, 2020

SEATTLE — Faizel Khan was being told by the news media and his own mayor that the protests in his hometown were peaceful, with “a block party atmosphere.”

But that was not what he saw through the windows of his Seattle coffee shop. He saw encampments overtaking the sidewalks. He saw roving bands of masked protesters smashing windows and looting.

Young white men wielding guns would harangue customers as well as Mr. Khan, a gay man of Middle Eastern descent who moved here from Texas so he could more comfortably be out. To get into his coffee shop, he sometimes had to seek the permission of self-appointed armed guards to cross a border they had erected.

“They barricaded us all in here,” Mr. Khan said. “And they were sitting in lawn chairs with guns.”

For 23 days in June, about six blocks in the city’s Capitol Hill neighborhood were claimed by left-wing demonstrators and declared police-free. Protesters hailed it as liberation — from police oppression, from white supremacy — and a catalyst for a national movement.

In the wake of the killing of George Floyd by the Minneapolis police, the Black Lives Matter movement is calling to defund the police, arguing that the criminal justice system is inherently racist.

Leaders in many progressive cities are listening. In New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio has announced a plan to shift $1 billion out of the police budget. The Minneapolis City Council is pitching a major reduction, and the Seattle City Council is pushing for a 50 percent cut to Police Department funding. (The mayor said that plan goes too far.)

Some even call for “abolishing the police” altogether and closing down precincts, which is what happened in Seattle.

That has left small-business owners as lonely voices in progressive areas, arguing that police officers are necessary and that cities cannot function without a robust public safety presence. In Minneapolis, Seattle and Portland, Ore., many of those business owners consider themselves progressive, and in interviews they express support for the Black Lives Matter movement. But they also worry that their businesses, already debilitated by the coronavirus pandemic, will struggle to survive if police departments and city governments cannot protect them.

On Capitol Hill, business crashed as the Seattle police refused to respond to calls to the area. Officers did not retake the region until July 1, after four shootings, including two fatal ones.'


Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2...tests.html




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Reply #16 posted 08/09/20 8:41am

OnlyNDaUsa

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jjhunsecker said:

Legalize all drugs, and a lot of the problems will go away with crime and violence. The gangs would have no reason to exist, and nothing to fight over. And most importantly, innocent people will not get hurt caught in the middle of gang violence

if we let all guns that are legal now stay legal and legal to carry too then maybe...


also I have found that people that want to defund to police (as opposed to re-structure them--which I have been calling for for decades) either do not really mean it or assume they will not need them and that no one will step in to take there place. (someone always fills a power vacuum)

I know people that say (lie) that they want anarchy and that there should be no cops and that government should not even make roads or schools... but what they mean is they do not want to pay tax and that they do not want cops or government to bother them...in their bubble...but fail to see that they rely on all that government outside of their bubble.

I stand with Ben and the Moderators!
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Reply #17 posted 08/09/20 11:02am

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Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #18 posted 08/09/20 12:02pm

v10letblues

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jjhunsecker said:

Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

Whenever I put on my tin foil hat, I start to believe that some of the most out there "left wing" proposals are manufactured by the right. I know it's not the case with this, but just with the name of it alone, when people talk, their breath smells like they've inadvertently been drinking right wing juicy juice.

Just like Kanye running for President with Trump staffers helping out.

[Edited 8/9/20 12:07pm]

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Reply #19 posted 08/09/20 12:07pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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jjhunsecker said:

Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

Yeah many of them seem to see themselves as conservatives but they do not know they will get more oppression... same as people for abolishing the police (which I agree is not the same as defending them). As I said before some of these social justice groups get taken over by factions that advocate (by deception) less freedom.

I stand with Ben and the Moderators!
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Reply #20 posted 08/09/20 12:14pm

jjhunsecker

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v10letblues said:



jjhunsecker said:


Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

Whenever I put on my tin foil hat, I start to believe that some of the most out there "left wing" proposals are manufactured by the right. I know it's not the case with this, but just with the name of it alone, when people talk, their breath smells like they've inadvertently been drinking right wing juicy juice.


Just like Kanye running for President with Trump staffers helping out.


[Edited 8/9/20 12:07pm]



These days, you don’t know what to believe, with so much misinformation spread around. Everything has to be considered in that light
#SOCIETYDEFINESU
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Reply #21 posted 08/09/20 5:32pm

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djThunderfunk said:

jjhunsecker said:

Legalize all drugs, and a lot of the problems will go away with crime and violence. The gangs would have no reason to exist, and nothing to fight over. And most importantly, innocent people will not get hurt caught in the middle of gang violence


With all sincerity, I 100% agree with this.

If there is no contraband to search for, or to worry about being found, conflict between law enforcement and citizens would be almost nonexistent.


But the reasons why gangs exist is not because of drugs.
From as far back as we can see, gangs have existed and formed.
And they tend to be because people (mostly male, but some male/female, some only female) exist because they feel like family deserted them. Or they have no real family. Or any variation of lack of family/community/familial connection. Sometimes these people came from broken homes, many times fathers and mothers were there, but the kid is neglected/ignored, many times there are no fathers there at all.

So if we legalized drugs, if the 'family-community-purpose' connection is broken, I believe the gangs will continue.

I remember listening to the opening lines of Rebel Without A Cause(50s?) and what was said and what happened in the movie was the same thing, I was hearing in the 90s.

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...
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Reply #22 posted 08/09/20 5:52pm

13cjk13

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jjhunsecker said:

Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

Probably DarlingDiana. Extremely foul person.

"hey if you found out someone gave you a fake $20 would you be mad?"It is in fact #TRUTH.Mocha ObsidianˈN(y)o͞obēən Cocoa Noir...
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Reply #23 posted 08/10/20 4:12am

jaawwnn

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jjhunsecker said:

Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

I mean that makes sense, full on Randism, no? Most right-wingers stop somewhere around the police and military when it comes to privatizing everything but a person who believes in the market with absolute certainty wouldn't. What is Onlyfans but a version of the privatization of the individual?


The left argument for defunding police is a bit harder to make if you want to stay coherent. It's no accident that so many Silicon Valley moguls describe themselves as anarchists since anarchism can easily be spun as a version of hyper-individualism. As long as you don't look at it too closely.

[Edited 8/10/20 4:16am]

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Reply #24 posted 08/10/20 8:34am

jjhunsecker

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13cjk13 said:



jjhunsecker said:


Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

Probably DarlingDiana. Extremely foul person.



That’s the one!! I couldn’t remember the name.... I probably mentally blocked it out
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Reply #25 posted 08/10/20 8:41am

jjhunsecker

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jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


Interestingly, the only person I can recall ever saying that government should be abolished was an extreme right winger who used to be on here. I believe he/she was eventually kicked off for some reason. That person used to say that private enterprise should handle all of the public’s needs. I remember that they were a huge fan of the Pauls.

I mean that makes sense, full on Randism, no? Most right-wingers stop somewhere around the police and military when it comes to privatizing everything but a person who believes in the market with absolute certainty wouldn't. What is Onlyfans but a version of the privatization of the individual?



The left argument for defunding police is a bit harder to make if you want to stay coherent. It's no accident that so many Silicon Valley moguls describe themselves as anarchists since anarchism can easily be spun as a version of hyper-individualism. As long as you don't look at it too closely.


[Edited 8/10/20 4:16am]



I don’t think most on the left want to eliminate the police as much as they want funding for other social services that could replace a lot of the duties of the police, such as dealing with homeless people or the mentally ill or those with substance abuse issues. And to avoid having such problems escalating into criminal issues.
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Reply #26 posted 08/10/20 8:48am

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People might join gangs for all sorts of sociological and psychological issues. That might be best dealt with by social workers and psychologists.
My concern is what the gangs are shooting each other over, and more importantly, innocent people, and that’s the illegal drug trade. If that’s legal, the gangs have less reason to battle. And another factor is that the drug laws have been shown to be applied in a discriminatory manner, often criminalizing certain communities while others are not subject to the same scrutiny
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Reply #27 posted 08/10/20 9:20am

jaawwnn

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jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

I mean that makes sense, full on Randism, no? Most right-wingers stop somewhere around the police and military when it comes to privatizing everything but a person who believes in the market with absolute certainty wouldn't. What is Onlyfans but a version of the privatization of the individual?


The left argument for defunding police is a bit harder to make if you want to stay coherent. It's no accident that so many Silicon Valley moguls describe themselves as anarchists since anarchism can easily be spun as a version of hyper-individualism. As long as you don't look at it too closely.

[Edited 8/10/20 4:16am]

I don’t think most on the left want to eliminate the police as much as they want funding for other social services that could replace a lot of the duties of the police, such as dealing with homeless people or the mentally ill or those with substance abuse issues. And to avoid having such problems escalating into criminal issues.

Yeah, but the left is supposed to stand with the poorest in society and when all the surveys say the poor communities want more, not less, policing you have to have a very coherent plan to convince them that less money for the Police is a good thing.

Don't get me wrong, i'm with you, i'm just following these conversations as they happen and can see how shouting "defund the police" or whatever isn't going to fly on its own and could end up hurting the left (the left meaning the actual left not the dems btw, just to be clear smile )

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Reply #28 posted 08/10/20 9:28am

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e

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jjhunsecker said:

jaawwnn said:

I mean that makes sense, full on Randism, no? Most right-wingers stop somewhere around the police and military when it comes to privatizing everything but a person who believes in the market with absolute certainty wouldn't. What is Onlyfans but a version of the privatization of the individual?


The left argument for defunding police is a bit harder to make if you want to stay coherent. It's no accident that so many Silicon Valley moguls describe themselves as anarchists since anarchism can easily be spun as a version of hyper-individualism. As long as you don't look at it too closely.

[Edited 8/10/20 4:16am]

I don’t think most on the left want to eliminate the police as much as they want funding for other social services that could replace a lot of the duties of the police, such as dealing with homeless people or the mentally ill or those with substance abuse issues. And to avoid having such problems escalating into criminal issues.

A lot of that stuff still goes back to the basics 'family' and so many people don't want people in their family business, until it's too late.

People want a lot of those things, but most people don't know even what that looks like.

There are so many ills in society that people are on the fence about. Most people don't think pedeophiles can be rehabilitated. Whether they vocalize this or not. Some people think they should just be taken out. Some have said isolate them someplace together where they cannot access children.

When it comes to pychological issues, can we force people to take medications or mental health visits. We see homeless communities in various areas. Many times these people don't want housing and help. They just want a space in a park or next to business or such where they can set up camps. And we know that is never physically healthy.

I mean it's very difficult subject. Sending in social workers can be just has strenuous and dangers as it is for cops. You get people who want to do what they want to do, people who want to harm others. Sending people to isolated areas or crime ridden areas. I mean it's a mess.

And creating 'Mental Instituations' I think is a troubling thing too, but people with real issues, don't need to be out in about in the public either. Or living in the same apt building next to everday people.

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Reply #29 posted 08/10/20 9:45am

jjhunsecker

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jaawwnn said:



jjhunsecker said:


jaawwnn said:


I mean that makes sense, full on Randism, no? Most right-wingers stop somewhere around the police and military when it comes to privatizing everything but a person who believes in the market with absolute certainty wouldn't. What is Onlyfans but a version of the privatization of the individual?



The left argument for defunding police is a bit harder to make if you want to stay coherent. It's no accident that so many Silicon Valley moguls describe themselves as anarchists since anarchism can easily be spun as a version of hyper-individualism. As long as you don't look at it too closely.



[Edited 8/10/20 4:16am]



I don’t think most on the left want to eliminate the police as much as they want funding for other social services that could replace a lot of the duties of the police, such as dealing with homeless people or the mentally ill or those with substance abuse issues. And to avoid having such problems escalating into criminal issues.

Yeah, but the left is supposed to stand with the poorest in society and when all the surveys say the poor communities want more, not less, policing you have to have a very coherent plan to convince them that less money for the Police is a good thing.

Don't get me wrong, i'm with you, i'm just following these conversations as they happen and can see how shouting "defund the police" or whatever isn't going to fly on its own and could end up hurting the left (the left meaning the actual left not the dems btw, just to be clear smile )



“Defund the Police “ was a very bad slogan. It should have been something like “More Funds for Social Services “
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