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Thread started 06/25/20 2:07pm

OldFriends4Sal
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BLM and the Marxist connection



Marx·ism
/ˈmärkˌsizəm/
noun
noun: Marxism
  1. the political and economic theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, later developed by their followers to form the basis for the theory and practice of communism.



Anyone associated with the history and rise of Mao Zedong can see the similarities between the two movements:

  • Mao was a Marxists
  • Mao was an atheist
  • Mao used minority abuses to fuel his cause
  • Mao appealed to the youth
  • Mao inspired student and union protests
  • Mao used violence and fear to accomplish his goals
  • Mao destroyed statues and history books in an effort to erase history
  • Mao desired to destroy the government system to replace it with a Marxist structure

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Reply #1 posted 06/25/20 2:08pm

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Patrisse Cullors Co-founder of BLM

we are trained organizers, we are trained Marxists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyhy4IvkENg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zox3e-JQ6-M


“We are trained Marxists,” Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said, during an interview with Real News Network, further adding to the parallels between her movement and the rise of Mao Zedong’s Marxist movement in China.

Cullors, 36, was the protégé of Eric Mann, former agitator of the Weather Underground domestic terror organization, and spent years absorbing the Marxist-Leninist ideology that shaped her worldview, Breitbart News reported.

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia(Garza) in particular are trained organizers,” she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,” Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

While promoting her book “When They Call You a Terrorist: A Black Lives Matter Memoir” in 2018, Cullors described her introduction to and support for Marxist ideology.

She described to Democracy Now! how she became a trained organizer with the Labor/Community Strategy Center, which she called her “first political home” under the mentorship of Mann, its director, Breitbart reported.

The center, which describes its philosophy as “an urban experiment,” uses grassroots organization to “focus on Black and Latino communities with deep historical ties to the long history of anti-colonial, anti-imperialist, pro-communist resistance to the US empire,” according to the outlet.

It also expresses its appreciation for the work of the US Communist Party, “especially Black communists,” as well as its support for “the great work of the Black Panther Party, the American Indian Movement, Young Lords, Brown Berets, and the great revolutionary rainbow experiments of the 1970s,” Breitbart reported.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

200625-patrisse-cullors1.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1

Patrisse Cullors (born June 20, 1983) is an American artist and activist. Cullors is an advocate for prison abolition in Los Angeles and a co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement. She also identifies as a queer activist.

Founded: Black Lives Matter

Born: June 20, 1983, Los Angeles, California

Nationality: United States, Los Angeles

Profession: Artist

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Reply #2 posted 06/25/20 2:08pm

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS5WYp5xmvI

Thomas Sowell on the Myths of Economic Inequality

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Reply #3 posted 06/25/20 3:19pm

guitarslinger4
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Gross. I can't believe people publicly admit to being communists in this day and age with everything we know about it and its history.

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Reply #4 posted 06/25/20 3:29pm

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https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/a-black-lives-matter-co-founder-explains-why-this-time-is-different

A Black Lives Matter Co-Founder Explains Why This Time Is Different

undefined
June 3, 2020

In 2013, the community organizers Opal Tometi, Patrisse Cullors, and Alicia Garza started the Black Lives Matter movement. What began as a hashtag in response to Trayvon Martin’s death became a nationwide phenomenon, with protests in response to the killings of African-Americans and chapters across the country. Now, after the death of George Floyd, at the hands of a Minneapolis police officer, and a week of nationwide protests to an extent unseen in a half century, Black Lives Matter is once again the biggest story in the country.

On Tuesday afternoon, I spoke by phone with Tometi, who advises a number of black-led organizations and previously served as the executive director of the Black Alliance for Just Immigration. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed what it would mean to defund police departments, how the coronavirus pandemic has shaped the American response to the protests, and what’s next for Black Lives Matter.

How are these protests different from what came before, and why do you think they are different from what came before?

While we see that a lot of anger and outrage and frustration was sparked by the barbaric murder of George Floyd, it’s also clear to me that we have been sitting in our homes, navigating the pandemic, dealing with loved ones being sick, dealing with a great deal of fear and concern about what the day and the future will hold. We have millions of people who have lost their jobs and filed for unemployment and are living paycheck to paycheck and hand to mouth, and I believe they are just thoroughly fed up and thoroughly beside themselves with grief and concern and despair because the government does not seem to have a plan of action that is dignified and comprehensive and seeks to address the core concerns that the average American has.

And so my belief and my view of these protests is that they are different because they are marked by a period that has been deeply personal to millions of Americans and residents of the United States, and that has them more tender or sensitive to what is going on. People who would normally have been at work now have time to go to a protest or a rally, and have time to think about why they have been struggling so much, and they are thinking, This actually isn’t right and I want to make time, and I have the ability to make time now and make my concerns heard. So I think it is markedly differently in terms of the volume of demands we are hearing. People are absolutely lifting up names like Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, but I think they are very clearly in the streets for themselves and their family members because they don’t know who is next, and they are also concerned about the economic realities that they are faced with.

**** 2 It’s interesting that your answer focussed so little on criminal justice specifically. Is it just that the criminal-justice issues have been going on forever and so these additional things were needed, or is there something different about the way society is reacting to criminal-justice outrages in 2020?

I absolutely think people are concerned with police brutality. Let me make that absolutely clear. We have been fighting and advocating to stop a war on black lives. And that is how we see it—this is a war on black life. And people understand that this system is filled with all sorts of inequality and injustice, and that implicit bias and just outright racism is embedded in the way that policing is done in this nation—and when you think about it historically, it was founded as a slave patrol. The evolution of policing was rooted in that. People recognize that. So their frustration is absolutely about the policing and the criminal-justice system writ large and the racial dimensions of it, and its lethal impact on our communities.

But I would say that there is something about the economic conditions in addition to the lethal force we are seeing every day that makes this moment feel different, where people are making different kinds of demands. We do a lot of work with the Movement for Black Lives and a number of organizations and individuals and different leaders who are part of that formation, and we have been calling for the defunding of police, a moratorium on rent, a moratorium on mortgages and utilities. We need to not have people’s utilities shut off—their light, their water, and just basic needs that people have.

So our demands are also reflective of the fact that when we started Black Lives Matter, it wasn’t solely about police brutality and extrajudicial killing. That was a spark point, but it was very intentional for us to talk about the way that black lives are cut short all across the board. You can talk about the quality of our life in terms of housing and education and health-care systems and the pandemic and what we are seeing there. So for us it has been more comprehensive than just the criminal-justice system and policing. It’s bigger than that.

Is it important that a specific agenda is heard from protesters, or is that the job of other people?

A specific agenda like?

People showing up at protests with signs listing specific reforms.

You know, I think it is important that we have those types of things, but I also believe that what we are witnessing now is the opening up of imaginations, where people are beginning to think more expansively about what the solutions could be. We have our solutions. We want the rights of protesters to be respected. We want a divestment from the police and an investment in black communities. We are demanding immediate relief for our communities. We want community control. We want an end to this war against black people. So we are clear in our demands, and we have demands for each city, so each city has its own unique demands, especially cities that are very active in these protests right now. You will see that local organizers have been working on the ground for years, and have already had their own reports and series of policies, and so what we ar

Chotiner-OpalTometi-1.jpg

Opal Tometi with her Black Lives Matter co-founders Patrisse Cullors and Alicia Garza (pictured left to right) at an awards ceremony, in 2016.Source Photograph by Kevork Djansezian / Glamour / Getty

Key-Photo_Patrisse-1024x576.jpg

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Reply #5 posted 06/25/20 3:36pm

guitarslinger4
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Posted in the other thread, but bears repeating given that there are a lot of folks who have cognitive dissonance in regards to fascism being bad but communism being ok:


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Reply #6 posted 06/25/20 4:07pm

djThunderfunk

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"A 2015 video clip has surfaced of an interview with Black Lives Matter founder Patrisse Cullors in which she assures her interviewer that the group has an underlying ideology, saying, "We're trained Marxists."

https://disrn.com/news/vi...d-marxists



Fauci is a liar.
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Reply #7 posted 06/25/20 4:22pm

OldFriends4Sal
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djThunderfunk said:



"A 2015 video clip has surfaced of an interview with Black Lives Matter founder Patrisse Cullors in which she assures her interviewer that the group has an underlying ideology, saying, "We're trained Marxists."

https://disrn.com/news/vi...d-marxists





People don't hear it who support the movement, and think it's nothing.
Others actually react knowingly.

What Shaun King is purporting is right in line with it. As long as he keeps getting those checks.

Another thing i realized in the last few weeks that many of the 'spokespersons' mostly female are also some kind of local media personality. Many of them. It was a bit suprising. but they are getting paid too.

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Reply #8 posted 06/25/20 4:23pm

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guitarslinger44 said:

Gross. I can't believe people publicly admit to being communists in this day and age with everything we know about it and its history.

That's a part of the problem. They don't know about it.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
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Reply #9 posted 06/25/20 4:32pm

djThunderfunk

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OldFriends4Sale said:

guitarslinger44 said:

Gross. I can't believe people publicly admit to being communists in this day and age with everything we know about it and its history.

That's a part of the problem. They don't know about it.


Right on. They don't care either.

Fauci is a liar.
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Reply #10 posted 06/25/20 5:01pm

OldFriends4Sal
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djThunderfunk said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

That's a part of the problem. They don't know about it.


Right on. They don't care either.

So look at the interview in post #4 the question posed
2 It’s interesting that your answer focussed so little on criminal justice specifically. Is it just that the criminal-justice issues have been going on forever and so these additional things were needed, or is there something different about the way society is reacting to criminal-justice outrages in 2020?

The interviewer clearly saw that there is a bigger plan to this 'this time around'

It just keeps 'evolving' closer to what it is. And Shaun King, yuck.

I don't think they reazile their action could actually get Trump reelected

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

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What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
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Reply #11 posted 06/25/20 5:17pm

djThunderfunk

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OldFriends4Sale said:

djThunderfunk said:


Right on. They don't care either.

So look at the interview in post #4 the question posed
2 It’s interesting that your answer focussed so little on criminal justice specifically. Is it just that the criminal-justice issues have been going on forever and so these additional things were needed, or is there something different about the way society is reacting to criminal-justice outrages in 2020?

The interviewer clearly saw that there is a bigger plan to this 'this time around'

It just keeps 'evolving' closer to what it is. And Shaun King, yuck.

I don't think they reazile their action could actually get Trump reelected


It very well could. The democratic party has swung waaaay to the left as well. Most people, liberal or conservative, left or right, democrat or republican... are moderate. This country is no more eager to have a far left government that a far right one. Compared to the leadership in the democratic party and in BLM, the republicans are the ones coming across as moderate right now.

Fauci is a liar.
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Reply #12 posted 06/25/20 7:40pm

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"Traditionally, the age-old Marxist strategy of fomenting class warfare and demonizing capitalism has been an effective tactic with those in the lower-income and education strata, who can be easily swayed to blame others for their perceived misfortune. However, in a nation, such as the United States, which has experienced great peace and prosperity for nearly seven decades and whose population is overwhelmingly middle-class, this argument alone cannot sway a sufficient number to support the ascension of those dedicated to socialist/Marxist ideology.

Therefore, while still using the class-warfare dialog to keep the lower classes stirred up, the left has, beginning in the 1930s but accelerating in the 1960s, combined class warfare with the promotion of guilt for one's success and falsely portraying their ideological enemies as being intolerant extremists whose single-minded determination is to limit and control everyone's lifestyle, and who are at their core virulent racists. Yet leftists are just what they accuse their opponents of being."

https://www.americanthink...diots.html


And that is just it. I see more racism and fascism coming from the left than the right. Who's trying to erase history? The left. Who's trying to censor what we can see, hear, watch, read, listen to or say? The left. Who's willing to use force to impose their will on everyone else? The left. Who believes "the ends justify the means"? The left.

Maybe they never read Orwell. Or maybe they thought 1984 was an instruction manual.

Marxist consider the revolutionaries they use to be "useful idiots". Marxists hate liberals the most. "And if the government turn over", they'll be the first to go.


Fauci is a liar.
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Reply #13 posted 06/25/20 8:24pm

djThunderfunk

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Eric July tells it straight:

https://www.youtube.com/w...dpIIiBe7Wc



Fauci is a liar.
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Reply #14 posted 06/26/20 11:51am

guitarslinger4
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OldFriends4Sale said:

guitarslinger44 said:

Gross. I can't believe people publicly admit to being communists in this day and age with everything we know about it and its history.

That's a part of the problem. They don't know about it.


I'm a history buff, so I've read a lot on the effects of communism, what people who have lived through it have said about it, etc. And it just fucks me up that people choose an ideology like this and either haven't read up on the particulars of it or just don't care. Communism is as toxic fascism because it's usually run by the same type of grifters.

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Reply #15 posted 06/27/20 5:46pm

CherryMoon57

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Both 'trained' and 'marxists' certainly raise alarm bells. Makes you wonder who really is behind this movement...

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that." Martin Luther King Jr.
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Reply #16 posted 06/27/20 7:13pm

IanRG

CherryMoon57 said:

Both 'trained' and 'marxists' certainly raise alarm bells. Makes you wonder who really is behind this movement...

.

Why?

.

Many activists are trained. The people behind Medicines San Frontiers are trained. The people behind the Red Cross, the GOP, the Democrats are trained. And on and on we can go.

.

A person possibly said she is a Marxist - She is a founder of the first of two organisations with BLM in their title. The vast majority of the supporters of the concept of BLM around the world are not Marxist and will not become Marxist as a result of BLM. They are people appalled by the disproportionate police violence inspired by racism that sees people killed or attacked at a high rate, more likely to be imprisoned and sentenced to longer sentences for similar crimes as others based on race. A movement like this should have people from all political shades from the far-left Marxists to the far-right Fascists. It should isolate the race-based supremacists by joining together everyone else, even Marxists - even if that means 21st century Marxists owning the shameful history of the past.

.

And this is who is really behind this movement: people who collectively want to see this end. This is like asking who is really behind the previous protests, the open up movement.

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Reply #17 posted 06/27/20 7:27pm

bo11

It's really genius. BLM has got America on board with BLM. Their approval rating is incredible. They have all this love , but most citizens don't realize what they are cosigning. You have a beautiful idea Black Lives Matter and they do and then if you try to explain BLM the organization as not such a good thing then you are a total asshole and racist. You can't win.

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Reply #18 posted 06/27/20 7:55pm

IanRG

bo11 said:

It's really genius. BLM has got America on board with BLM. Their approval rating is incredible. They have all this love , but most citizens don't realize what they are cosigning. You have a beautiful idea Black Lives Matter and they do and then if you try to explain BLM the organization as not such a good thing then you are a total asshole and racist. You can't win.

.

The answer is simple: you can win by joining the majority of people who want that beautiful idea because it does not lead to a Marxist take over, just less people killed etc by racist based police violence. It is not about which political opinion wins, it is about doing good regardless of where the beautiful idea came from.

.

The best way to stop a far left or far right extremist is address the issues in the best and most positive way possible for all so these issues cannot be used to breed dissent.

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Reply #19 posted 06/27/20 7:59pm

jjhunsecker

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IanRG said:



CherryMoon57 said:


Both 'trained' and 'marxists' certainly raise alarm bells. Makes you wonder who really is behind this movement...



.


Why?


.


Many activists are trained. The people behind Medicines San Frontiers are trained. The people behind the Red Cross, the GOP, the Democrats are trained. And on and on we can go.


.


A person possibly said she is a Marxist - She is a founder of the first of two organisations with BLM in their title. The vast majority of the supporters of the concept of BLM around the world are not Marxist and will not become Marxist as a result of BLM. They are people appalled by the disproportionate police violence inspired by racism that sees people killed or attacked at a high rate, more likely to be imprisoned and sentenced to longer sentences for similar crimes as others based on race. A movement like this should have people from all political shades from the far-left Marxists to the far-right Fascists. It should isolate the race-based supremacists by joining together everyone else, even Marxists - even if that means 21st century Marxists owning the shameful history of the past.


.


And this is who is really behind this movement: people who collectively want to see this end. This is like asking who is really behind the previous protests, the open up movement.



Very true. And I especially applaud your point that the overwhelming amount of people marching with BLM, or identifying with their cause, are NOT “Marxists”, and will never be “Marxists”. The overwhelming majority are folks who are interested in justice for people of color, and for equality for all. And there is nothing that the majority of protesters are seeking that reasonably could be considered “Marxist” (unless they consider equality for all as some sort of tenet of Communism). And remember, the “Marxist” tag was applied to MLK and the Civil Rights movement in the 50s and 60s... almost as a way to say that Black people weren’t smart enough to lobby for their own interests, and instead were “stirred up “ by “outside agitators “
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Reply #20 posted 06/27/20 8:49pm

bo11

The problem I have with it is that they are getting millions and millions of donation dollars to help further their cause from people who who don't understand what they are really pushing. They have like a 65 percent approval rating. Do you think if people knew their true intentions which is the abolishment of police and capitalism.

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Reply #21 posted 06/27/20 8:51pm

v10letblues

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This reminds me of when people immitate Trump supporters to mock him and the base. You never really know if they are true supporters of simply mocking. The line between the normal every day Trump surrealism we have grown to expect and reality gets so blurry it hurts

.

Having said that, it's obvious that forces on both the left and right are practicing the wholesome voodoo of social manipulation ard that those deepest down the rabbit hole sare getting played. I mean i see the same usual suspects inspecting Rorschach blots and finding divinity and restoration of their faith.

So, people here desperatly looking for confimation bias to help "discover" a boogieman, WILL surely find it.

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Reply #22 posted 06/27/20 9:29pm

jjhunsecker

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bo11 said:

The problem I have with it is that they are getting millions and millions of donation dollars to help further their cause from people who who don't understand what they are really pushing. They have like a 65 percent approval rating. Do you think if people knew their true intentions which is the abolishment of police and capitalism.



The overwhelming majority of BLM supporters are not in favor of abolishing capitalism. If anything, they want more access to the means of capitalism- mainly through a better education system and access to better jobs and opportunities. In fact, one of the main methods that racists disenfranchised Black people in America was by denying them access to the means of capitalism, such as home ownership and union membership. So don’t confuse the majority of protesters with something one or two people in the organization might have said.
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Reply #23 posted 06/27/20 10:02pm

IanRG

bo11 said:

The problem I have with it is that they are getting millions and millions of donation dollars to help further their cause from people who who don't understand what they are really pushing. They have like a 65 percent approval rating. Do you think if people knew their true intentions which is the abolishment of police and capitalism.

.

If they are working on what you call a "beautiful idea", then the donations are well spent AND in line with what the majority of donors want.

.

If they use the donations to abolish capitalism, hold them to account. Just like every charity or political organisation, they are subject to scrutiny and can either be held to account and can be defunded. They can loose their tax free status or otherwise be required to spend donated funds in line with the law, regulations, contracts or publicly stated purpose. If they seek to be deceptive: organise an alternate way to achieve the beautiful idea or support another organisation that does.

.

As to abolish the Police: This may be the objective of a small number of anarchists. This perception is given far too much weight because of the protest term "defund the police". However, what most people, supoortive police structures and governments think this means is reform the police, restructure, retarget, retrain, demilitarise the police, refocus policing to prevent the issues arising by better handling equality in society and in how mental health is managed as a community issue.

.

If people willing give money to organisations that are actively and effectively working on reducing racism, violence and taking mental health issues away from police forces so they can focus on properly, reasonably and effectively preventing crime, who cares? It does not matter if there are people in one of the many organisations working towards this that has people in it who are marxists? Again, all people from far left marxists to far right fascists should be onboard with the beautiful idea so the minority of racial supremacists are isolated and the broad base of everyone else means none of the individuals within the one of the movements can trick people into a marxist dicatorship. This is nothing but a distraction deliberately promoted by the usual suspects to take the focus off the actions of the far right or any "wins" by their political opponents.

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Reply #24 posted 06/27/20 10:53pm

cborgman

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IanRG said:

bo11 said:

The problem I have with it is that they are getting millions and millions of donation dollars to help further their cause from people who who don't understand what they are really pushing. They have like a 65 percent approval rating. Do you think if people knew their true intentions which is the abolishment of police and capitalism.

.

If they are working on what you call a "beautiful idea", then the donations are well spent AND in line with what the majority of donors want.

.

If they use the donations to abolish capitalism, hold them to account. Just like every charity or political organisation, they are subject to scrutiny and can either be held to account and can be defunded. They can loose their tax free status or otherwise be required to spend donated funds in line with the law, regulations, contracts or publicly stated purpose. If they seek to be deceptive: organise an alternate way to achieve the beautiful idea or support another organisation that does.

.

As to abolish the Police: This may be the objective of a small number of anarchists. This perception is given far too much weight because of the protest term "defund the police". However, what most people, supoortive police structures and governments think this means is reform the police, restructure, retarget, retrain, demilitarise the police, refocus policing to prevent the issues arising by better handling equality in society and in how mental health is managed as a community issue.

.

If people willing give money to organisations that are actively and effectively working on reducing racism, violence and taking mental health issues away from police forces so they can focus on properly, reasonably and effectively preventing crime, who cares? It does not matter if there are people in one of the many organisations working towards this that has people in it who are marxists? Again, all people from far left marxists to far right fascists should be onboard with the beautiful idea so the minority of racial supremacists are isolated and the broad base of everyone else means none of the individuals within the one of the movements can trick people into a marxist dicatorship. This is nothing but a distraction deliberately promoted by the usual suspects to take the focus off the actions of the far right or any "wins" by their political opponents.

thank you. great posts by you and jj.

.

[Edited 6/27/20 22:55pm]

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #25 posted 06/28/20 9:17am

deebee

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I suspect that part of this is a matter of terminology and what different people understand by "Marxist." The insinuation from Breitbart, the NY Post, and whatever the fuck BackToJerusalem.com (quoted in the OP) is lol, is that it means something like 'someone who supports a political strategy of seeking to establish a communist state, along the lines of the Soviet Union'.

But the term is also used by people who've studied social and political theories in the course of university study to mean something like 'someone who uses the theories of Marx and later Marxists to analyse what's going on in capitalist society'. I'd describe myself as a Marxist, for example - and I'd mean it in those terms. That's the sense in which contemporary Marxist thinkers (e.g. people writing for Jacobin magazine, Prof Richard Wolff, etc etc) are using the term, anyway.

Certainly, they, and I, would also be committed to pursuing some kind of egalitarian politics, but we'd describe that as socialism - and, tbh, there's not really much agreement today on what sort of political form that would take, except that no-one wants a dictatorship (!), or anything that concentrates power in the hands of the state. One of the ironies of what gets lost in ignorant chatter on this topic is that Marxists are far more sceptical about the power of the state than are contemporary liberals. Hence the moves towards scaling back and curtailing the power of the police and the prison system. Use your eyes and ears and compare the reality of what you actually see Cullors et al doing politically to the bogeyman stories on Breitbart, and engage your common sense. It would be a very strange politics indeed that sought to establish a dictatorship by organising to dramatically reduce the repressive powers of the state!

Maybe Cullors is also saying that, in addition to making a social and economic analysis that sees harms like mass incarceration and intensive policing as being functionally linked to contemporary capitalism, they also take some of the ideas associated with Marxism and socialism to inform their grassroots political organising - e.g. trying to mobilise those oppressed by the institutions of the (capitalist) state and pursue some kind of collective oppositional strategy. She's pretty vague about it though - and, disappointingly, they didn't really continue that line of inquiry in the interview.

One thing we can say for sure, though: there's no need to worry about BLM spokespeople secretly plotting to trick people into a dictatorship, though. Leave that sort of silliness in the McCarthyite 50s, where it belongs.

[Edited 6/28/20 9:31am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #26 posted 06/28/20 9:19am

deebee

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OldFriends4Sale said:

  • Mao was a Marxists

But can he haz cheezburger....? hmmm

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #27 posted 06/28/20 9:52am

deebee

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bo11 said:

The problem I have with it is that they are getting millions and millions of donation dollars to help further their cause from people who who don't understand what they are really pushing. They have like a 65 percent approval rating. Do you think if people knew their true intentions which is the abolishment of police and capitalism.

I think the talk one hears of "police abolition" is more rhetorical than anything else. (And for that reason, I tend not to find it very useful.) If you were to ask the people using that term whether they want there to be someone on the other end of the line when they dial 911, if they found themselves being beaten up, they'd likely say something like, "Yes, of course. But what I mean is that I don't think the police should have a license to go around killing people" - in which case, they'd be better off just saying that.

Likewise with capitalism. It doesn't seem like even Cullors herself is seeking to abolish that. She supported Warren and Sanders in the Dem primaries, both of whom were in favour of capitalism, but with some elements of New Deal-style social democracy. I'd think that's about as 'anti-capitalist' as they're aiming, rightly or wrongly.

[Edited 6/28/20 10:11am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #28 posted 06/28/20 10:32am

jjhunsecker

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deebee said:

I suspect that part of this is a matter of terminology and what different people understand by "Marxist." The insinuation from Breitbart, the NY Post, and whatever the fuck BackToJerusalem.com (quoted in the OP) is lol, is that it means something like 'someone who supports a political strategy of seeking to establish a communist state, along the lines of the Soviet Union'.

But the term is also used by people who've studied social and political theories in the course of university study to mean something like 'someone who uses the theories of Marx and later Marxists to analyse what's going on in capitalist society'. I'd describe myself as a Marxist, for example - and I'd mean it in those terms. That's the sense in which contemporary Marxist thinkers (e.g. people writing for Jacobin magazine, Prof Richard Wolff, etc etc) are using the term, anyway.

Certainly, they, and I, would also be committed to pursuing some kind of egalitarian politics, but we'd describe that as socialism - and, tbh, there's not really much agreement today on what sort of political form that would take, except that no-one wants a dictatorship (!), or anything that concentrates power in the hands of the state. One of the ironies of what gets lost in ignorant chatter on this topic is that Marxists are far more sceptical about the power of the state than are contemporary liberals. Hence the moves towards scaling back and curtailing the power of the police and the prison system. Use your eyes and ears and compare the reality of what you actually see Cullors et al doing politically to the bogeyman stories on Breitbart, and engage your common sense. It would be a very strange politics indeed that sought to establish a dictatorship by organising to dramatically reduce the repressive powers of the state!

Maybe Cullors is also saying that, in addition to making a social and economic analysis that sees harms like mass incarceration and intensive policing as being functionally linked to contemporary capitalism, they also take some of the ideas associated with Marxism and socialism to inform their grassroots political organising - e.g. trying to mobilise those oppressed by the institutions of the (capitalist) state and pursue some kind of collective oppositional strategy. She's pretty vague about it though - and, disappointingly, they didn't really continue that line of inquiry in the interview.

One thing we can say for sure, though: there's no need to worry about BLM spokespeople secretly plotting to trick people into a dictatorship, though. Leave that sort of silliness in the McCarthyite 50s, where it belongs.

[Edited 6/28/20 9:31am]



Excellent post, as always. Deebee, you much more cogently expound on my point that Marxism is a legitimate political philosophy
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Reply #29 posted 06/28/20 10:35am

jjhunsecker

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OldFriends4Sale said:


https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/a-black-lives-matter-co-founder-explains-why-this-time-is-different




A Black Lives Matter Co-Founder Explains Why This Time Is Different




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June 3, 2020




In 2013, the community organizers Opal Tometi, Patrisse Cullors, and Alicia Garza started the Black Lives Matter movement. What began as a hashtag in response to Trayvon Martin’s death became a nationwide phenomenon, with protests in response to the killings of African-Americans and chapters across the country. Now, after the death of George Floyd, at the hands of a Minneapolis police officer, and a week of nationwide protests to an extent unseen in a half century, Black Lives Matter is once again the biggest story in the country.


On Tuesday afternoon, I spoke by phone with Tometi, who advises a number of black-led organizations and previously served as the executive director of the Black Alliance for Just Immigration. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed what it would mean to defund police departments, how the coronavirus pandemic has shaped the American response to the protests, and what’s next for Black Lives Matter.


How are these protests different from what came before, and why do you think they are different from what came before?


While we see that a lot of anger and outrage and frustration was sparked by the barbaric murder of George Floyd, it’s also clear to me that we have been sitting in our homes, navigating the pandemic, dealing with loved ones being sick, dealing with a great deal of fear and concern about what the day and the future will hold. We have millions of people who have lost their jobs and filed for unemployment and are living paycheck to paycheck and hand to mouth, and I believe they are just thoroughly fed up and thoroughly beside themselves with grief and concern and despair because the government does not seem to have a plan of action that is dignified and comprehensive and seeks to address the core concerns that the average American has.


And so my belief and my view of these protests is that they are different because they are marked by a period that has been deeply personal to millions of Americans and residents of the United States, and that has them more tender or sensitive to what is going on. People who would normally have been at work now have time to go to a protest or a rally, and have time to think about why they have been struggling so much, and they are thinking, This actually isn’t right and I want to make time, and I have the ability to make time now and make my concerns heard. So I think it is markedly differently in terms of the volume of demands we are hearing. People are absolutely lifting up names like Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, but I think they are very clearly in the streets for themselves and their family members because they don’t know who is next, and they are also concerned about the economic realities that they are faced with.


**** 2 It’s interesting that your answer focussed so little on criminal justice specifically. Is it just that the criminal-justice issues have been going on forever and so these additional things were needed, or is there something different about the way society is reacting to criminal-justice outrages in 2020?


I absolutely think people are concerned with police brutality. Let me make that absolutely clear. We have been fighting and advocating to stop a war on black lives. And that is how we see it—this is a war on black life. And people understand that this system is filled with all sorts of inequality and injustice, and that implicit bias and just outright racism is embedded in the way that policing is done in this nation—and when you think about it historically, it was founded as a slave patrol. The evolution of policing was rooted in that. People recognize that. So their frustration is absolutely about the policing and the criminal-justice system writ large and the racial dimensions of it, and its lethal impact on our communities.


But I would say that there is something about the economic conditions in addition to the lethal force we are seeing every day that makes this moment feel different, where people are making different kinds of demands. We do a lot of work with the Movement for Black Lives and a number of organizations and individuals and different leaders who are part of that formation, and we have been calling for the defunding of police, a moratorium on rent, a moratorium on mortgages and utilities. We need to not have people’s utilities shut off—their light, their water, and just basic needs that people have.


So our demands are also reflective of the fact that when we started Black Lives Matter, it wasn’t solely about police brutality and extrajudicial killing. That was a spark point, but it was very intentional for us to talk about the way that black lives are cut short all across the board. You can talk about the quality of our life in terms of housing and education and health-care systems and the pandemic and what we are seeing there. So for us it has been more comprehensive than just the criminal-justice system and policing. It’s bigger than that.


Is it important that a specific agenda is heard from protesters, or is that the job of other people?


A specific agenda like?


People showing up at protests with signs listing specific reforms.


You know, I think it is important that we have those types of things, but I also believe that what we are witnessing now is the opening up of imaginations, where people are beginning to think more expansively about what the solutions could be. We have our solutions. We want the rights of protesters to be respected. We want a divestment from the police and an investment in black communities. We are demanding immediate relief for our communities. We want community control. We want an end to this war against black people. So we are clear in our demands, and we have demands for each city, so each city has its own unique demands, especially cities that are very active in these protests right now. You will see that local organizers have been working on the ground for years, and have already had their own reports and series of policies, and so what we ar






Chotiner-OpalTometi-1.jpg

Opal Tometi with her Black Lives Matter co-founders Patrisse Cullors and Alicia Garza (pictured left to right) at an awards ceremony, in 2016.Source Photograph by Kevork Djansezian / Glamour / Getty




Key-Photo_Patrisse-1024x576.jpg



Are there Monarch Notes for some of these posts?
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