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Reply #30 posted 06/13/20 9:07pm

IanRG

OnlyNDaUsa said:

IanRG said:

.

The source of your arguments from what is being said by fox AND CO. This has been shown time and time again. I did not say you watch just fox. Instead, I have shown that your arguments here are so often a day or two after that argument was first said or written in far right media outlets - Fox TV, radio and online and similar but different online radio and websites etc, so please stop making up falsehoods.

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You are still missing the point - I am no one to say who should or should not be honoured. The whole of the local community is the only people that should say this. When only a part of the community - the descendents of slave owners - is the mob who chose to put up statues of those who militarily opposed the USA to prevent the end of slavery as a response to the descendents of slaves seeking equal rights, then who is this mod to choose to honour these enemies of the state? Who are you to parrot Fox and Co's arguments for their mob against the whole of the community?

.

If the ruling mob responded to all the previous calls to reflect on the appropriateness of statues of enemies of the state as a counter to the call for civil rights then no mob would seek to have them removed - They would have been removed long ago.

.

No I do not support the mobs of racist white supremacists that got so many of these statues of enemies of the state put up to stick it to those seeking equal rights.

[Edited 6/13/20 20:23pm]

I do not watch fox... no one has even shown that i do... the best was someone made up a lie that FOX says "Cheer the Virus" I said they do not... not because I watch it but becuase I was and am sure it was a made up...and they never proved it... again please stop making up falsehoods about me.

that is MOB rule... you agree with it so you support it... watch out.

if you support it now that is fine just remeber this when it comed for you... remember not too long ago most people were opposed to same sex marrage not too long ago most were opposed to most abortions...

so you pick and choose based on your point of view? I got that... that was my point the one you missed.

.

That is a strawman argument - I NEVER said you watch fox - Again please stop making up falsehoods. I said you get a lot of your arguments from fox and co. I listed the range of types of sources and I have shown many times that you do state the latest arguments by fox and co a day or two after they made these arguments.

.

You support mob rule so long as it is to support the 2nd amendment and allow for the forceful removal of a bad government. This is killing people at horrendous levels every year. Removing symbols of white supremacy that your mob has refused to remove is people taking action and they are doing in response to people being killed by the police.

.

I missed no point from you - I addressed that you are seeking a false equivalence between your mob seeking to honour enemies of the state who went to war against the USA to stick it to civil rights activists and people within the USA seeking equal rights in the civil rights movement. This picking and choosing is picking good for the whole of the community - a good point of view. The alternative you want me to consider the equal of this is honouring people who did bad by owning slaves and seeking war to defend the right to continue to own slaves against the US government as part of the process to deny equality for the descendents of slaves - a bad point of view. If you think you are making a point against me in that I choose good over bad, then you need to consider much better sources of information.

[Edited 6/13/20 21:09pm]

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Reply #31 posted 06/13/20 10:33pm

maplenpg

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

cborgman said:

disbelief
seek help only.

if you were being robbed would not not want to be allowed to use force to stop it?


I see this a lot in people that have never been the victim of a crime... they think "oh just let them" "go to your happy place" "close your eyes it will be over soon...."

Some RATHER be a victim... but see they forget one thing... it is only because some will use deadly force that prevents some from breaking the law.

[Edited 6/13/20 18:47pm]

This is utterly wrong. In fact the punishment for a crime rarely, if ever, enters into the argument. The reasons people commit crime are long and complex - it might be for poverty, addiction, it might be through their upbringing, or just drunken stupidity, it might also be because they believe their actions are justified in some way. But lets not believe the people who stay away from crime do so because they fear deadly force, because countries like the UK and AUS don't have paranoid homeowners afraid of the boogieman, and by your argument we'd be getting robbed all day long, and crime would be a much bigger problem than it is.

And seriously, if someone stole a flag from someone's garden, with no danger to anyone else, you believe deadly force is justified? I can't get my head round that way of thinking at all.

#JusticeForShukri http://chng.it/B5mNKrDrzK
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Reply #32 posted 06/13/20 10:38pm

maplenpg

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IanRG said:

jjhunsecker said:

Why should the losers get monuments and military bases named in their honor anyway? All traces of these traitors to our country should be wiped out, or put in a museum with the other relics

.

And this is how you balance keeping and recognising the full history. As has been pointed out, so many of these were put up in places of undue honour as a knee jerk reaction against calls for civil rights long after your civil war. They were put up by racists to honour racists and deny the reasonable requests of the abused to not be shot, excessively imprisoned and excluded from so much of the benefits of being US citizens. They are being protected by those seeking to keep institutional racism going.

.

Put them in museums with full explanations of history of these people and times, good and bad, and Only's comments about free speech and what if they come for the symbols you like dies for the silliness it always has been. Made even more silly because Only has stated time and time again, the second amendment is there to allow the people to keep the government in line - yet he denys the rights of others (people on the left or not white) to resist government violence.

.

In Australia we are going through the same thing: Ayres Rock was returned to its Indigenous name, Uluru in a two step: Ayers Rock / Uluru in 1993 and now Uluru / Ayers Rock since 2002 (with virtually only the far right calling it Ayers Rock). The King Leopold Ranges are to be renamed following BLM. People have attacked Capt Cook, Governor Macquarie, John Batman and Queen Victoria statutes. These are not as clear cut as confederate symbols so it needs to be more nuanced. IMHO Batman and Macquarie statues should be moved to museums, but Cook was just an explorer. Cook was no Columbus, it was Cook's funder and "botanist", Joseph Banks, that pushed for the colonisation of Australia. Cook's worst acts were in Hawai'i and it cost him his life. No deserves a monument and no monument must stay in prime places of honour forever. Those so honoured should be able to be honoured by virtually all people in a country.

This. Especially the final bold bit.

#JusticeForShukri http://chng.it/B5mNKrDrzK
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Reply #33 posted 06/13/20 11:20pm

TrivialPursuit

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cborgman said:

the people took down the columbus statue in minne, and a lot of people are petitioning to have it replaced with a statue of prince, which i love.


Lil' more on that here: https://prince.org/msg/7/463430

Just when U think U've got more than enough, that's when it all up and flies away.
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Reply #34 posted 06/13/20 11:22pm

TrivialPursuit

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The bridge is Selma is named after a KKK grand wizard and confederate warlord. Edmund Pettus Bridge should be the John Lewis Bridge. Named for a hero. Not a murderer.

There's a petition to get it changed.

By the way, most of my first statement was taken from Ava Duvernay's twitter promoting the petition.

Just when U think U've got more than enough, that's when it all up and flies away.
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Reply #35 posted 06/13/20 11:51pm

poppys

TrivialPursuit said:

cborgman said:

the people took down the columbus statue in minne, and a lot of people are petitioning to have it replaced with a statue of prince, which i love.


Lil' more on that here: https://prince.org/msg/7/463430


You do realize the article you posted in PM&M is three years old, right? It was posted on the org and many of us signed the petition then. Wintana Melekin started the campaign in 2017.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #36 posted 06/14/20 1:45am

JoeTyler

Good.

The next step is removing statues of Union or Fed Gov heroes who committed genocide on the native peoples.

This country was built in 150 years of bloodshed, and that flavour is still present by 2020.
tinkerbell
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Reply #37 posted 06/14/20 4:15am

2elijah

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JoeTyler said:

Good.

The next step is removing statues of Union or Fed Gov heroes who committed genocide on the native peoples.

This country was built in 150 years of bloodshed, and that flavour is still present by 2020.

Bloodshed, rape, thuggery, land stealers, enslavement. They don’t need hero status for those crimes nor a holiday named after them. I often wonder what the hell is wrong with countries that honor statues after folks like that. I mean many of them participated in genocide, why honor them? Where’s the statues of the ones that tried to stop the genocide?
Always smile in the face of adversity. smile
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Reply #38 posted 06/14/20 4:59am

JoeTyler

2elijah said:

JoeTyler said:

Good.

The next step is removing statues of Union or Fed Gov heroes who committed genocide on the native peoples.

This country was built in 150 years of bloodshed, and that flavour is still present by 2020.

Bloodshed, rape, thuggery, land stealers, enslavement. They don’t need hero status for those crimes nor a holiday named after them. I often wonder what the hell is wrong with countries that honor statues after folks like that. I mean many of them participated in genocide, why honor them? Where’s the statues of the ones that tried to stop the genocide?


Because anything before WW2 is considered "that's how the world was".

By that I mean Hitler is considered worse than Cortés, despite both being pretty similar in ethics and methods.
tinkerbell
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Reply #39 posted 06/14/20 6:13am

Ottensen

cborgman said:

the people took down the columbus statue in minne, and a lot of people are petitioning to have it replaced with a statue of prince, which i love.



I'm SO here for that. Minnesota's own native son who, through his art, went out into the world exemplifying excellence, spreading love, speaking truth to power and social injustice, never once forgetting where he was from or completely abandoning home... Sounds like a darned dandy idea to me, too.
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Reply #40 posted 06/14/20 7:29am

PennyPurple

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jjhunsecker said:

Why should the losers get monuments and military bases named in their honor anyway? All traces of these traitors to our country should be wiped out, or put in a museum with the other relics

But that would be wiping out history. It would be just the same as the school books sliding over the facts about the Native Americans....which they have.


A museum would be the best place for them, they don't need to be landmarks anymore.

A MASK ISN'T TOO MUCH TO ASK!!
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Reply #41 posted 06/14/20 7:32am

PennyPurple

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JoeTyler said:

Good. The next step is removing statues of Union or Fed Gov heroes who committed genocide on the native peoples. This country was built in 150 years of bloodshed, and that flavour is still present by 2020.

I agree. Bye, bye, Custer.

A MASK ISN'T TOO MUCH TO ASK!!
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Reply #42 posted 06/14/20 7:35am

OnlyNDaUsa

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this must be taken down too!

https://www.senate.gov/ar...eiling.htm

The Spike is Real Wear a Mask (this is not the 2nd Wave)
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Reply #43 posted 06/14/20 8:13am

cborgman

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

this must be taken down too!

https://www.senate.gov/ar...eiling.htm

typical only flip-flop.

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #44 posted 06/14/20 8:15am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

cborgman said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

this must be taken down too!

https://www.senate.gov/ar...eiling.htm

typical only flip-flop.

no flip flop... I said I am kind of agree as long as it is not by mob... if you want a Robert E Lee statue taken down then how can you support a kkk grand dragon being honored....

The Spike is Real Wear a Mask (this is not the 2nd Wave)
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Reply #45 posted 06/14/20 8:17am

cborgman

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

cborgman said:

typical only flip-flop.

no flip flop... I said I am kind of agree as long as it is not by mob... if you want a Robert E Lee statue taken down then how can you support a kkk grand dragon being honored....

i dont care if byrds portrait goes. so can strom thurmonds statue, as well as as future paintings or statues of trump, pence, mcconnell, and graham.




.

[Edited 6/14/20 8:27am]

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #46 posted 06/14/20 9:40am

TrivialPursuit

avatar

poppys said:

TrivialPursuit said:


Lil' more on that here: https://prince.org/msg/7/463430


You do realize the article you posted in PM&M is three years old, right? It was posted on the org and many of us signed the petition then. Wintana Melekin started the campaign in 2017.


Yeah, but it's still legs. Frankly, it's overdue.

Just when U think U've got more than enough, that's when it all up and flies away.
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Reply #47 posted 06/14/20 10:15am

rednblue

IanRG said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I do not watch fox... no one has even shown that i do... the best was someone made up a lie that FOX says "Cheer the Virus" I said they do not... not because I watch it but becuase I was and am sure it was a made up...and they never proved it... again please stop making up falsehoods about me.

that is MOB rule... you agree with it so you support it... watch out.

if you support it now that is fine just remeber this when it comed for you... remember not too long ago most people were opposed to same sex marrage not too long ago most were opposed to most abortions...

so you pick and choose based on your point of view? I got that... that was my point the one you missed.

.

That is a strawman argument - I NEVER said you watch fox - Again please stop making up falsehoods. I said you get a lot of your arguments from fox and co. I listed the range of types of sources and I have shown many times that you do state the latest arguments by fox and co a day or two after they made these arguments.

.

You support mob rule so long as it is to support the 2nd amendment and allow for the forceful removal of a bad government. This is killing people at horrendous levels every year. Removing symbols of white supremacy that your mob has refused to remove is people taking action and they are doing in response to people being killed by the police.

.

I missed no point from you - I addressed that you are seeking a false equivalence between your mob seeking to honour enemies of the state who went to war against the USA to stick it to civil rights activists and people within the USA seeking equal rights in the civil rights movement. This picking and choosing is picking good for the whole of the community - a good point of view. The alternative you want me to consider the equal of this is honouring people who did bad by owning slaves and seeking war to defend the right to continue to own slaves against the US government as part of the process to deny equality for the descendents of slaves - a bad point of view. If you think you are making a point against me in that I choose good over bad, then you need to consider much better sources of information.

[Edited 6/13/20 21:09pm]


ONLY -- You are concerned with picking and choosing? Really?

It was you who told us something about those wanting to protect and further individual gun rights. You told us that most of those gun rights advocates will pick and choose when it comes to opposing government tyranny.

And that kind of blows my mind, considering that the horror of government tyranny is a claimed pillar of their advocacy.

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Reply #48 posted 06/14/20 10:27am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

rednblue said:

IanRG said:

.

That is a strawman argument - I NEVER said you watch fox - Again please stop making up falsehoods. I said you get a lot of your arguments from fox and co. I listed the range of types of sources and I have shown many times that you do state the latest arguments by fox and co a day or two after they made these arguments.

.

You support mob rule so long as it is to support the 2nd amendment and allow for the forceful removal of a bad government. This is killing people at horrendous levels every year. Removing symbols of white supremacy that your mob has refused to remove is people taking action and they are doing in response to people being killed by the police.

.

I missed no point from you - I addressed that you are seeking a false equivalence between your mob seeking to honour enemies of the state who went to war against the USA to stick it to civil rights activists and people within the USA seeking equal rights in the civil rights movement. This picking and choosing is picking good for the whole of the community - a good point of view. The alternative you want me to consider the equal of this is honouring people who did bad by owning slaves and seeking war to defend the right to continue to own slaves against the US government as part of the process to deny equality for the descendents of slaves - a bad point of view. If you think you are making a point against me in that I choose good over bad, then you need to consider much better sources of information.

[Edited 6/13/20 21:09pm]


ONLY -- You are concerned with picking and choosing? Really?

It was you who told us something about those wanting to protect and further individual gun rights. You told us that most of those gun rights advocates will pick and choose when it comes to opposing government tyranny.

And that kind of blows my mind, considering that the horror of government tyranny is a claimed pillar of their advocacy.

did i? here? I need the context. and I am not sure that picking and chooseing is all that bad... did I say it was? or is it just something we ought to acknowlage?

The Spike is Real Wear a Mask (this is not the 2nd Wave)
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Reply #49 posted 06/14/20 11:10am

2elijah

avatar

PennyPurple said:



jjhunsecker said:


Why should the losers get monuments and military bases named in their honor anyway? All traces of these traitors to our country should be wiped out, or put in a museum with the other relics

But that would be wiping out history. It would be just the same as the school books sliding over the facts about the Native Americans....which they have.



A museum would be the best place for them, they don't need to be landmarks anymore.


They don’t need statues in their honor. The truth about them could be in museums. To be honest, regarding Native American history, the history books already leave out facts about Native Americans’ history, which is really not a surprise.
[Edited 6/14/20 11:38am]
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Reply #50 posted 06/14/20 11:17am

jjhunsecker

avatar

PennyPurple said:



jjhunsecker said:


Why should the losers get monuments and military bases named in their honor anyway? All traces of these traitors to our country should be wiped out, or put in a museum with the other relics

But that would be wiping out history. It would be just the same as the school books sliding over the facts about the Native Americans....which they have.



A museum would be the best place for them, they don't need to be landmarks anymore.



I agree. They should be in a museum, the same as Nazi artifacts are in Holocaust museums
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Reply #51 posted 06/14/20 11:30am

poppys

2elijah said:

JoeTyler said:

Good. The next step is removing statues of Union or Fed Gov heroes who committed genocide on the native peoples. This country was built in 150 years of bloodshed, and that flavour is still present by 2020.


Bloodshed, rape, thuggery, land stealers, enslavement. They don’t need hero status for those crimes nor a holiday named after them. I often wonder what the hell is wrong with countries that honor statues after folks like that. I mean many of them participated in genocide, why honor them?

Where’s the statues of the ones that tried to stop the genocide?

hammer

[Edited 6/14/20 11:35am]

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #52 posted 06/14/20 12:33pm

benni

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I know how to get Republicans to agree with removing the statues, changing the names of military bases, etc. Remind them, they were Democrats. (Of course, most of them deny that the party platforms changed after that, but they were democrats at that time. However, by today's party platforms, they would be Republicans, but we don't need to remind them of that.)

Trump: "It was hard to get it aroused and it is hard to get it aroused but we got it aroused."
[narrator voice] He's talking about the "American way."
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Reply #53 posted 06/14/20 1:27pm

v10letblues

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I'd like to see them placed in a museum instead of destroyed. There is a lot to learn and appreciate from history. But to stand in public civic spaces, yeah no.

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Reply #54 posted 06/14/20 1:45pm

cborgman

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v10letblues said:

I'd like to see them placed in a museum instead of destroyed. There is a lot to learn and appreciate from history. But to stand in public civic spaces, yeah no.

well the right better start rapidly buying some serious museum space and fast, cause... fire sale on statues of racists.

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #55 posted 06/14/20 1:51pm

poppys

cborgman said:

v10letblues said:

I'd like to see them placed in a museum instead of destroyed. There is a lot to learn and appreciate from history. But to stand in public civic spaces, yeah no.


well the right better start rapidly buying some serious museum space and fast, cause... fire sale on statues of racists.

There's way too many of them anyways honey, we're not in danger of running out. They'll have to rotate out of storage at best. But really, the fight's just starting. Our idiot lieutenant gov wants to relocate the ones that were taken down (in an orderly fashion, by the way) to City Park here. DOH!!! You know, racists look so much better in a garden setting...

[Edited 6/14/20 14:03pm]

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #56 posted 06/14/20 2:10pm

cborgman

avatar

poppys said:

cborgman said:


well the right better start rapidly buying some serious museum space and fast, cause... fire sale on statues of racists.

There's way too many of them anyways honey, we're not in danger of running out. They'll have to rotate out of storage at best. But really, the fight's just starting. Our idiot lieutenant gov wants to relocate the ones that were taken down (in an orderly fashion, by the way) to City Park here. DOH!!! You know, racists look so much better in a garden setting...

[Edited 6/14/20 14:03pm]

what state?

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton
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Reply #57 posted 06/14/20 2:33pm

poppys

cborgman said:

poppys said:

There's way too many of them anyways honey, we're not in danger of running out. They'll have to rotate out of storage at best. But really, the fight's just starting. Our idiot lieutenant gov wants to relocate the ones that were taken down (in an orderly fashion, by the way) to City Park here. DOH!!! You know, racists look so much better in a garden setting...

what state?

New Orleans, Louisiana. The Lee Circle one I posted upthread was the most iconic but we have tons of stuff for the thrift shop.

themonuments.jpg

[Edited 6/14/20 14:55pm]

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Reply #58 posted 06/14/20 3:14pm

IanRG

OnlyNDaUsa said:

this must be taken down too!

https://www.senate.gov/ar...eiling.htm

OnlyNDaUsa said:

no flip flop... I said I am kind of agree as long as it is not by mob... if you want a Robert E Lee statue taken down then how can you support a kkk grand dragon being honored....

.

Brooke Singman of Fox News posted an article on this before you posted this here.

.

Her article even mentioned Robert E Lee's statue.

.

The call here is for things like Robert E Lee's statue to be in a museum and to be balanced. The statue from your source is high on pedestal in the focal point of a park and separated street - that is even named Monument Avenue - an extreme place of honour.

.

The picture Fox/Only wants removed is of a Democrat, no surprise there. It is hanging in a portrait museum together with, and in no prominence over, other Senators in leadership positions. All of these Senate Leaders will have done acts that are seriously bad and others that are good. It is my understanding that Byrd became a strong advocate for civil rights - No surprise that Fox is calling for the removal of portrait of a person who supported civil rights when their president trump is refusing to unveil Obama's portrait in the equivalent gallery. Are there other republican senators in that portrait gallery where Fox and you are ignoring their racist past and not calling for their portrait to be removed?

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Reply #59 posted 06/14/20 3:28pm

v10letblues

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cborgman said:

v10letblues said:

I'd like to see them placed in a museum instead of destroyed. There is a lot to learn and appreciate from history. But to stand in public civic spaces, yeah no.

well the right better start rapidly buying some serious museum space and fast, cause... fire sale on statues of racists.

It's not about right,left. It's simply about history. Historical preservation. It's important.

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