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Reply #90 posted 05/15/20 12:06pm

maplenpg

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CherryMoon57 said:

Cloudbuster said:

"It is important to emphasize that Coronavirus Disease 2019 or COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death."

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/...Deaths.pdf

In the About the Data section under Confirmed & Probable Cases

"As of April 14, 2020, CDC case counts and death counts include both confirmed and probable cases and deaths."

https://www.cdc.gov/coron...in-us.html

Curious.

https://www.youtube.com/w...RpplP11Kek

https://www.youtube.com/w...dwrTRoIFzQ

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/...03-508.pdf





I see what you are saying but the trouble is because not everyone is tested, there still needs to be some form of acknowledgement of the highly likely cause of death esp. when a close member of the same family was tested and known to have Covid-19.

Plus the total excess deaths (deaths from anything at all) this year stands at around 55,000 suggesting that the covid death toll has been under-calculated rather than the opposite.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #91 posted 05/15/20 12:13pm

Lianachan

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maplenpg said:

One for cborgman - sadly the money has now been pulled for keeping the homeless off the streets sad sad sad sad sad sad


https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...d-52637283



It’s good that these things happened, and we all saw that they are possible. Austerity is a political choice, an unnecessary and a callous one.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #92 posted 05/15/20 12:45pm

maplenpg

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Lianachan said:

maplenpg said:

One for cborgman - sadly the money has now been pulled for keeping the homeless off the streets sad sad sad sad sad sad


https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...d-52637283

It’s good that these things happened, and we all saw that they are possible. Austerity is a political choice, an unnecessary and a callous one.

Yup - It's sad how quickly people Tories forget about compassion when there's an economy to build back up. And 1,000,000% the cost of Brexit is going to be hidden in the cost of covid19.

[Edited 5/15/20 12:46pm]

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #93 posted 05/16/20 3:00am

CherryMoon57

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maplenpg said:

CherryMoon57 said:

I see what you are saying but the trouble is because not everyone is tested, there still needs to be some form of acknowledgement of the highly likely cause of death esp. when a close member of the same family was tested and known to have Covid-19.

Plus the total excess deaths (deaths from anything at all) this year stands at around 55,000 suggesting that the covid death toll has been under-calculated rather than the opposite.

Exactely

Open your heart open your mind
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Reply #94 posted 05/17/20 2:10am

maplenpg

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Cherry - I'd be interested to know your views on the schools row (given that you've been ahead on the game regarding homeschooling). I think the one thing everyone seems to have failed to report is that some parents (me included) have rather enjoyed homeschool (I admit to a tricky start, so I'm talking a few weeks in). Dare I say I think my kids have progressed rather than regressed? Now I know there are parents who aren't doing a damn thing with their kids (my neighbour calls it an extra long summer holiday), and maybe those kids would benefit from going back to school earlier, but I think that the number of permanent homeschoolers will rise massively. It's almost like the government daren't acknowledge that not all kids have suffered from being at home for a few weeks. Thoughts?

Edit to add: This came from a comment by Gove on Marr which stated something along the lines of 'If you really care about your children, you'd send them to school'.

[Edited 5/17/20 2:12am]

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #95 posted 05/17/20 5:14am

CherryMoon57

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maplenpg said:

Cherry - I'd be interested to know your views on the schools row (given that you've been ahead on the game regarding homeschooling). I think the one thing everyone seems to have failed to report is that some parents (me included) have rather enjoyed homeschool (I admit to a tricky start, so I'm talking a few weeks in). Dare I say I think my kids have progressed rather than regressed? Now I know there are parents who aren't doing a damn thing with their kids (my neighbour calls it an extra long summer holiday), and maybe those kids would benefit from going back to school earlier, but I think that the number of permanent homeschoolers will rise massively. It's almost like the government daren't acknowledge that not all kids have suffered from being at home for a few weeks. Thoughts?

Edit to add: This came from a comment by Gove on Marr which stated something along the lines of 'If you really care about your children, you'd send them to school'.

[Edited 5/17/20 2:12am]

Homeschooling was the best thing we ever did. The only regret I have is that we didn't do it any sooner. It's not for everyone of course, but for those who can it's really worth it. You just have to be creative, trust your children and go with the flow. And please don't get me started on schools or we'll be in for a long one! lol

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #96 posted 05/17/20 5:45am

maplenpg

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CherryMoon57 said:

maplenpg said:

Cherry - I'd be interested to know your views on the schools row (given that you've been ahead on the game regarding homeschooling). I think the one thing everyone seems to have failed to report is that some parents (me included) have rather enjoyed homeschool (I admit to a tricky start, so I'm talking a few weeks in). Dare I say I think my kids have progressed rather than regressed? Now I know there are parents who aren't doing a damn thing with their kids (my neighbour calls it an extra long summer holiday), and maybe those kids would benefit from going back to school earlier, but I think that the number of permanent homeschoolers will rise massively. It's almost like the government daren't acknowledge that not all kids have suffered from being at home for a few weeks. Thoughts?

Edit to add: This came from a comment by Gove on Marr which stated something along the lines of 'If you really care about your children, you'd send them to school'.

[Edited 5/17/20 2:12am]

Homeschooling was the best thing we ever did. The only regret I have is that we didn't do it any sooner. It's not for everyone of course, but for those who can it's really worth it. You just have to be creative, trust your children and go with the flow. And please don't get me started on schools or we'll be in for a long one! lol

My thoughts:
1) If the Tories truly cared about children, then they wouldn't have cut children's services and reduced funding to schools to near breaking point in the last decade.
2) Private schools are not returning until September, and they have smaller class sizes and more space than state schools, so why are state schools deemed safe and private schools not?
3) The returning year groups seem odd. You can't possibly get reception age kids to social distance. In some European schools they don't even start school until I think the age of seven, so I'm sure they won't be setback by staying at home for a few extra weeks.
4) I think it is patronising and insulting to suggest it's in the best interests of the child to be in school - of course, in some instances it is, but homeschooling has given many parents the chance to rebond and connect with their children, and to work together as a team.
5) I would like to see weekly testing of NHS workers, care workers, social care workers & teachers and an easier access to testing for the general public before I can be reassured that the government are on top of this. If South Korea can test 11 million people, and other countries are testing en masse, I want real answers as to why we aren't.
6) The number of new cases and the R rate are still way too high.
7) Almost everyone in education, plus the BMA, plus some governments inc Scotland, Wales and some Northern towns (not sure about Ireland) have said it's not safe before Sept.
8) Schools don't have the capacity to accept pupils anyway at social distance. Maximum they can possibly take back is 50% with social distancing in play.

Phew - there's my long one - I'm ready for yours now lol

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #97 posted 05/17/20 6:06am

Lianachan

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maplenpg said:



CherryMoon57 said:




maplenpg said:


Cherry - I'd be interested to know your views on the schools row (given that you've been ahead on the game regarding homeschooling). I think the one thing everyone seems to have failed to report is that some parents (me included) have rather enjoyed homeschool (I admit to a tricky start, so I'm talking a few weeks in). Dare I say I think my kids have progressed rather than regressed? Now I know there are parents who aren't doing a damn thing with their kids (my neighbour calls it an extra long summer holiday), and maybe those kids would benefit from going back to school earlier, but I think that the number of permanent homeschoolers will rise massively. It's almost like the government daren't acknowledge that not all kids have suffered from being at home for a few weeks. Thoughts?

Edit to add: This came from a comment by Gove on Marr which stated something along the lines of 'If you really care about your children, you'd send them to school'.


[Edited 5/17/20 2:12am]



Homeschooling was the best thing we ever did. The only regret I have is that we didn't do it any sooner. It's not for everyone of course, but for those who can it's really worth it. You just have to be creative, trust your children and go with the flow. And please don't get me started on schools or we'll be in for a long one! lol



My thoughts:
1) If the Tories truly cared about children, then they wouldn't have cut children's services and reduced funding to schools to near breaking point in the last decade.
2) Private schools are not returning until September, and they have smaller class sizes and more space than state schools, so why are state schools deemed safe and private schools not?
3) The returning year groups seem odd. You can't possibly get reception age kids to social distance. In some European schools they don't even start school until I think the age of seven, so I'm sure they won't be setback by staying at home for a few extra weeks.
4) I think it is patronising and insulting to suggest it's in the best interests of the child to be in school - of course, in some instances it is, but homeschooling has given many parents the chance to rebond and connect with their children, and to work together as a team.
5) I would like to see weekly testing of NHS workers, care workers, social care workers & teachers and an easier access to testing for the general public before I can be reassured that the government are on top of this. If South Korea can test 11 million people, and other countries are testing en masse, I want real answers as to why we aren't.
6) The number of new cases and the R rate are still way too high.
7) Almost everyone in education, plus the BMA, plus some governments inc Scotland, Wales and some Northern towns (not sure about Ireland) have said it's not safe before Sept.
8) Schools don't have the capacity to accept pupils anyway at social distance. Maximum they can possibly take back is 50% with social distancing in play.

Phew - there's my long one - I'm ready for yours now lol



The whole point of England’s schools going back dangerously early is to free up the parents to return to work, to make money for their Tory betters.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #98 posted 05/17/20 6:12am

maplenpg

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Lianachan said:

maplenpg said:

My thoughts:
1) If the Tories truly cared about children, then they wouldn't have cut children's services and reduced funding to schools to near breaking point in the last decade.
2) Private schools are not returning until September, and they have smaller class sizes and more space than state schools, so why are state schools deemed safe and private schools not?
3) The returning year groups seem odd. You can't possibly get reception age kids to social distance. In some European schools they don't even start school until I think the age of seven, so I'm sure they won't be setback by staying at home for a few extra weeks.
4) I think it is patronising and insulting to suggest it's in the best interests of the child to be in school - of course, in some instances it is, but homeschooling has given many parents the chance to rebond and connect with their children, and to work together as a team.
5) I would like to see weekly testing of NHS workers, care workers, social care workers & teachers and an easier access to testing for the general public before I can be reassured that the government are on top of this. If South Korea can test 11 million people, and other countries are testing en masse, I want real answers as to why we aren't.
6) The number of new cases and the R rate are still way too high.
7) Almost everyone in education, plus the BMA, plus some governments inc Scotland, Wales and some Northern towns (not sure about Ireland) have said it's not safe before Sept.
8) Schools don't have the capacity to accept pupils anyway at social distance. Maximum they can possibly take back is 50% with social distancing in play.

Phew - there's my long one - I'm ready for yours now lol

The whole point of England’s schools going back dangerously early is to free up the parents to return to work, to make money for their Tory betters.

Yup, it's all about the economy.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #99 posted 05/17/20 6:33am

maplenpg

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Lianachan - I've been reading today about the virus heading North and that Barrow-in-Furness is now one of the hot spots. Will Scotland have any different policies regarding testing etc... if it gets worse there (I know your lockdown hasn't started lifting yet)? Or are you still stuck with the English rules i.e. you might get a test if you're very, very lucky, or if you're hospitalised?

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #100 posted 05/17/20 8:08am

CherryMoon57

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maplenpg said:

Lianachan said:

maplenpg said: The whole point of England’s schools going back dangerously early is to free up the parents to return to work, to make money for their Tory betters.

Yup, it's all about the economy.

That's certainly one element. As for the rest, I recommend any book by John Holt (educator and pioneer of the unschooling movement).

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #101 posted 05/17/20 8:54am

CherryMoon57

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maplenpg said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Homeschooling was the best thing we ever did. The only regret I have is that we didn't do it any sooner. It's not for everyone of course, but for those who can it's really worth it. You just have to be creative, trust your children and go with the flow. And please don't get me started on schools or we'll be in for a long one! lol

My thoughts:
1) If the Tories truly cared about children, then they wouldn't have cut children's services and reduced funding to schools to near breaking point in the last decade.
2) Private schools are not returning until September, and they have smaller class sizes and more space than state schools, so why are state schools deemed safe and private schools not?
3) The returning year groups seem odd. You can't possibly get reception age kids to social distance. In some European schools they don't even start school until I think the age of seven, so I'm sure they won't be setback by staying at home for a few extra weeks.
4) I think it is patronising and insulting to suggest it's in the best interests of the child to be in school - of course, in some instances it is, but homeschooling has given many parents the chance to rebond and connect with their children, and to work together as a team.
5) I would like to see weekly testing of NHS workers, care workers, social care workers & teachers and an easier access to testing for the general public before I can be reassured that the government are on top of this. If South Korea can test 11 million people, and other countries are testing en masse, I want real answers as to why we aren't.
6) The number of new cases and the R rate are still way too high.
7) Almost everyone in education, plus the BMA, plus some governments inc Scotland, Wales and some Northern towns (not sure about Ireland) have said it's not safe before Sept.
8) Schools don't have the capacity to accept pupils anyway at social distance. Maximum they can possibly take back is 50% with social distancing in play.

Phew - there's my long one - I'm ready for yours now lol

My thoughts with regards to the current situation are exactely the same as yours, especially the boldened parts... In the long term, flexi-schooling could be the answer: some children attending in the morning, others in the afternoon or they could simply attend on alternate days. That would leave more time for play outside / study / family interactions.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #102 posted 05/17/20 8:59am

Lianachan

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maplenpg said:

Lianachan - I've been reading today about the virus heading North and that Barrow-in-Furness is now one of the hot spots. Will Scotland have any different policies regarding testing etc... if it gets worse there (I know your lockdown hasn't started lifting yet)? Or are you still stuck with the English rules i.e. you might get a test if you're very, very lucky, or if you're hospitalised?


Scotland has a separate health service, our own laws, education system, etc. Our COVID response and policies up here have always been different, and informed by experts considering the situation here.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #103 posted 05/17/20 9:29am

maplenpg

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Lianachan said:

maplenpg said:

Lianachan - I've been reading today about the virus heading North and that Barrow-in-Furness is now one of the hot spots. Will Scotland have any different policies regarding testing etc... if it gets worse there (I know your lockdown hasn't started lifting yet)? Or are you still stuck with the English rules i.e. you might get a test if you're very, very lucky, or if you're hospitalised?

Scotland has a separate health service, our own laws, education system, etc. Our COVID response and policies up here have always been different, and informed by experts considering the situation here.

That makes sense. I knew you had your own government and laws, I didn't know you had a separate health service and education system. So are people in Scotland able to get tested?

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #104 posted 05/17/20 10:33am

Lianachan

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maplenpg said:



Lianachan said:


maplenpg said:

Lianachan - I've been reading today about the virus heading North and that Barrow-in-Furness is now one of the hot spots. Will Scotland have any different policies regarding testing etc... if it gets worse there (I know your lockdown hasn't started lifting yet)? Or are you still stuck with the English rules i.e. you might get a test if you're very, very lucky, or if you're hospitalised?



Scotland has a separate health service, our own laws, education system, etc. Our COVID response and policies up here have always been different, and informed by experts considering the situation here.

That makes sense. I knew you had your own government and laws, I didn't know you had a separate health service and education system. So are people in Scotland able to get tested?



It’s more or less that if you have symptoms you can be tested.

https://www.gov.scot/publ...be-tested/

Yeah, doesn’t seem to be too widely know that we have those ourselves. No doubt because the BBC and media generally refer to the English health services as the NHS, as if it’s across the entire UK.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #105 posted 05/17/20 10:52am

maplenpg

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CherryMoon57 said:

maplenpg said:

Yup, it's all about the economy.

That's certainly one element. As for the rest, I recommend any book by John Holt (educator and pioneer of the unschooling movement).

I'll look him up. Thanks.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #106 posted 05/23/20 3:13pm

Lianachan

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What does everybody make of the Dominic Cummings news? That he wasn’t sacked and that many senior Tories are supporting him and telling lies for him should bring down the government. But won’t.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #107 posted 05/23/20 3:53pm

CherryMoon57

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Lianachan said:

What does everybody make of the Dominic Cummings news? That he wasn’t sacked and that many senior Tories are supporting him and telling lies for him should bring down the government. But won’t.

He didn't do anything bad. Why so much hate on others... for politics?

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #108 posted 05/23/20 4:05pm

Lianachan

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CherryMoon57 said:



Lianachan said:


What does everybody make of the Dominic Cummings news? That he wasn’t sacked and that many senior Tories are supporting him and telling lies for him should bring down the government. But won’t.

He didn't do anything bad. Why so much hate on others... for politics?


Didn’t do anything bad? He breached guidelines he helped set, and broke the law while telling everybody else to follow those rules. He has to go. His position, and the positions of all who support him in this, is utterly untenable.

Edited to add: Of course, the government claim the police didn’t speak to him and the police say they did.... Plus it now looks like he went up to Durham twice, and took in a jolly to a castle while there the first time. He should be fired. Preferably from a huge cannon, into the Sun.
[Edited 5/23/20 16:09pm]
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #109 posted 05/23/20 4:35pm

CherryMoon57

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Lianachan said:

CherryMoon57 said:

He didn't do anything bad. Why so much hate on others... for politics?

Didn’t do anything bad? He breached guidelines he helped set, and broke the law while telling everybody else to follow those rules. He has to go. His position, and the positions of all who support him in this, is utterly untenable. Edited to add: Of course, the government claim the police didn’t speak to him and the police say they did.... Plus it now looks like he went up to Durham twice, and took in a jolly to a castle while there the first time. He should be fired. Preferably from a huge cannon, into the Sun. [Edited 5/23/20 16:09pm]

Governmental guidance says that the lockdown rules should not override safeguarding issues. As a parent myself, I can tell you that what he did - go near his family in case he catches Covid-19 from his infected wife (which he subsequently did) - so that his sisters could look after their 4-year-old child, was the right thing to do.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #110 posted 05/23/20 4:48pm

IanRG

CherryMoon57 said:

Lianachan said:

CherryMoon57 said: Didn’t do anything bad? He breached guidelines he helped set, and broke the law while telling everybody else to follow those rules. He has to go. His position, and the positions of all who support him in this, is utterly untenable. Edited to add: Of course, the government claim the police didn’t speak to him and the police say they did.... Plus it now looks like he went up to Durham twice, and took in a jolly to a castle while there the first time. He should be fired. Preferably from a huge cannon, into the Sun. [Edited 5/23/20 16:09pm]

Governmental guidance says that the lockdown rules should not override safeguarding issues. As a parent myself, I can tell you that what he did - go near his family in case he catches Covid-19 from his infected wife (which he subsequently did) - so that his sisters could look after their 4-year-old child, was the right thing to do.

.

That is my take on this. He stretched the rules for his child - This is simply not something that should bring down a government. There are many more reasons to complain about Bojo's government than an advisor arguably breaching guidelines so his 4 year old is looked after.

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Reply #111 posted 05/23/20 4:49pm

CherryMoon57

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What is happening to our world... neutral

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #112 posted 05/23/20 5:01pm

CherryMoon57

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IanRG said:

CherryMoon57 said:

HS2

Governmental guidance says that the lockdown rules should not override safeguarding issues. As a parent myself, I can tell you that what he did - go near his family in case he catches Covid-19 from his infected wife (which he subsequently did) - so that his sisters could look after their 4-year-old child, was the right thing to do.

.

That is my take on this. He stretched the rules for his child - This is simply not something that should bring down a government. There are many more reasons to complain about Bojo's government than an advisor arguably breaching guidelines so his 4 year old is looked after.

Exactely. It seems that the opposition is reaching with this so called rules breaching case. Cummings seems like a sensible guy, he had even opposed to the HS2 project...

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #113 posted 05/23/20 5:04pm

Lianachan

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CherryMoon57 said:



Lianachan said:


CherryMoon57 said:


He didn't do anything bad. Why so much hate on others... for politics?



Didn’t do anything bad? He breached guidelines he helped set, and broke the law while telling everybody else to follow those rules. He has to go. His position, and the positions of all who support him in this, is utterly untenable. Edited to add: Of course, the government claim the police didn’t speak to him and the police say they did.... Plus it now looks like he went up to Durham twice, and took in a jolly to a castle while there the first time. He should be fired. Preferably from a huge cannon, into the Sun. [Edited 5/23/20 16:09pm]

Governmental guidance says that the lockdown rules should not override safeguarding issues. As a parent myself, I can tell you that what he did - go near his family in case he catches Covid-19 from his infected wife (which he subsequently did) - so that his sisters could look after their 4-year-old child, was the right thing to do.



He and his wife have family in London. He had to drive most of the length of England? He had to do it twice? He had to go sightseeing when he was there? Why are they lying about it all and constantly changing the story? Too ill to look after children but well enough to drive hundreds of miles? In any case, it was made very clear - if anybody in your household is infected you were not to leave the house “for any reason”.

This isn’t about politics, it’s about accountability and hypocrisy. He shouldn’t have gone. When his colleagues found out he’d gone, he should have been sacked. When the news first broke, he should have resigned or been sacked. Now there are further revelations, the government are doubling down on their lies. It’s indefensible. Tens of thousands of people haven’t been able to move sick children about, to go to funerals of loved ones, to visit new born family members, etc.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #114 posted 05/23/20 5:13pm

CherryMoon57

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Lianachan said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Governmental guidance says that the lockdown rules should not override safeguarding issues. As a parent myself, I can tell you that what he did - go near his family in case he catches Covid-19 from his infected wife (which he subsequently did) - so that his sisters could look after their 4-year-old child, was the right thing to do.

He and his wife have family in London. He had to drive most of the length of England? He had to do it twice? He had to go sightseeing when he was there? Why are they lying about it all and constantly changing the story? Too ill to look after children but well enough to drive hundreds of miles? In any case, it was made very clear - if anybody in your household is infected you were not to leave the house “for any reason”. This isn’t about politics, it’s about accountability and hypocrisy. He shouldn’t have gone. When his colleagues found out he’d gone, he should have been sacked. When the news first broke, he should have resigned or been sacked. Now there are further revelations, the government are doubling down on their lies. It’s indefensible. Tens of thousands of people haven’t been able to move sick children about, to go to funerals of loved ones, to visit new born family members, etc.

It is. The examples at the end of your posts are totally different situations. Many people openly breached the rules every day in my area, at the supermarket, endangering others, etc. Does anybody care about it? ... I didn't think so.

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Reply #115 posted 05/23/20 5:24pm

Lianachan

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CherryMoon57 said:



Lianachan said:


CherryMoon57 said:


Governmental guidance says that the lockdown rules should not override safeguarding issues. As a parent myself, I can tell you that what he did - go near his family in case he catches Covid-19 from his infected wife (which he subsequently did) - so that his sisters could look after their 4-year-old child, was the right thing to do.



He and his wife have family in London. He had to drive most of the length of England? He had to do it twice? He had to go sightseeing when he was there? Why are they lying about it all and constantly changing the story? Too ill to look after children but well enough to drive hundreds of miles? In any case, it was made very clear - if anybody in your household is infected you were not to leave the house “for any reason”. This isn’t about politics, it’s about accountability and hypocrisy. He shouldn’t have gone. When his colleagues found out he’d gone, he should have been sacked. When the news first broke, he should have resigned or been sacked. Now there are further revelations, the government are doubling down on their lies. It’s indefensible. Tens of thousands of people haven’t been able to move sick children about, to go to funerals of loved ones, to visit new born family members, etc.

It is. The examples at the end of your posts are totally different situations. Many people openly breached the rules every day in my area, at the supermarket, endangering others, etc. Does anybody care about it? ... I didn't think so.



No, it really isn’t about politics. How many of the people in your area who break the rules also wrote those rules and told everybody to obey them? It’s about hypocrisy, as I said earlier.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #116 posted 05/23/20 6:23pm

IanRG

Lianachan said:

CherryMoon57 said:

It is. The examples at the end of your posts are totally different situations. Many people openly breached the rules every day in my area, at the supermarket, endangering others, etc. Does anybody care about it? ... I didn't think so.

No, it really isn’t about politics. How many of the people in your area who break the rules also wrote those rules and told everybody to obey them? It’s about hypocrisy, as I said earlier.

.

But you have made it about politics - you opened with that this should bring the government down.

.

Talk about the hypocrisy or about whether this was appropriate in the circumstances or whether this is a double standard or a bad message and it is not about politics. State it "should bring down the government" (your emphasis, not mine) then you are seeking to use this to get rid of a government you don't like.

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Reply #117 posted 05/23/20 10:43pm

maplenpg

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I believe Cummings went to see his mum for her 71st birthday. I believe he could have stayed in London - he has relatives two streets away. I believe his wife's account in the Spectator deliberately avoids the truth. I also believe that two people with such high profile jobs would have some form of childcare already. I don't believe that he thought his child was at risk, or needed safeguarding, otherwise I think the child would have stayed with the sister whilst they recovered.



BUT for the benefit of the doubt, let's believe him.

Where I think massive mistakes have been made is the Tories response to this. They COULD have said, "He should have stayed in his London home and called the emergency helpline if he got stuck". They could have said, "He made a mistake for which he is very sorry, but we don't think it warrants a resignation". They could have reassured people that he didn't stop for petrol, or for a toilet break whilst they were driving with the virus.

BUT, no, they put up an huge fence and protected him. They implied the police had lied. They implied that people that hadn't done the same didn't care enough about their kids. THAT is where, in my opinion, they fucked up massively.

Do I think it'll bring the Tories down? No, but I hope it'll make people think about the morals in play here. They are now risking a huge number of the country ignoring the rules because they are putting 'family first'. If we have a second wave I now know I can drive the 200 odd miles to my parents, rather than relying on friends and neighbours here. And if it happens to coincide with their 50th wedding anniversary and someone reports me to the police for dancing to ABBA in the garden? It never happened. I was self-isolating, and I was safeguarding my chldren wink .

[Edited 5/23/20 22:58pm]

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #118 posted 05/24/20 12:13am

maplenpg

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The rules were clear. The government are trying to gaslight us by saying the rules wren't broken. I take great offense at the government thinking we're so gullible, just admit he was wrong and move on:





The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #119 posted 05/24/20 12:19am

Lianachan

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IanRG said:



Lianachan said:


CherryMoon57 said:


It is. The examples at the end of your posts are totally different situations. Many people openly breached the rules every day in my area, at the supermarket, endangering others, etc. Does anybody care about it? ... I didn't think so.




No, it really isn’t about politics. How many of the people in your area who break the rules also wrote those rules and told everybody to obey them? It’s about hypocrisy, as I said earlier.

.


But you have made it about politics - you opened with that this should bring the government down.


.


Talk about the hypocrisy or about whether this was appropriate in the circumstances or whether this is a double standard or a bad message and it is not about politics. State it "should bring down the government" (your emphasis, not mine) then you are seeking to use this to get rid of a government you don't like.



It’s the government response to this that I meant should bring it down, not the actual actions themselves. They have destroyed trust and good will for a huge section of the public.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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