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Reply #150 posted 02/15/20 8:38am

djThunderfunk

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maplenpg said:

djThunderfunk said:


Why souldn't someone who makes a false accusation suffer the exact same punishment that would be inflicted on the innocent person they accused? They're willing to let another suffer the punishment undeservingly, they should face the same consequences.

And if you would need "rock solid proof that a person lied", then logically you would likewise need rock solid proof that someone committed domestic violence to convict them. No? Surely the burden of proof should be no more / no less to convict either one.

If someone falsely accuses another of a heinous crime, that person should absolutely face the same punishment as the accused. They were willing to lie and let another suffer the punishment, they should suffer the punishment when exposed.



I absolutely agree with the second paragraph, and if one party is making false allegations then the 'rock solid proof' should be missing. I agree the consequences should be hard but, as this source says:

"Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that perjury is very rarely charged against anyone who testifies unless the offense is egregious. The reason? It is exceptionally difficult to show that someone intentionally lied about something unless their lie is so far afield that it is plain that person is attempting to mislead the trier of fact."


[Edited 2/15/20 7:58am]


I don't think it's really that rare that people are charged with perjury or making false charges. I do think it is rare that the penalties for doing so are as harsh as the punishment for the crimes they are lying about.

Maybe somebody can dig up the statistics on this.

Mensa is the largest and oldest high IQ society in the world. It is a non-profit organization open to people who score at the 98th percentile or higher on a standardised, supervised IQ or other approved intelligence test.
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Reply #151 posted 02/15/20 9:31am

maplenpg

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djThunderfunk said:

maplenpg said:

I absolutely agree with the second paragraph, and if one party is making false allegations then the 'rock solid proof' should be missing. I agree the consequences should be hard but, as this source says:

"Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that perjury is very rarely charged against anyone who testifies unless the offense is egregious. The reason? It is exceptionally difficult to show that someone intentionally lied about something unless their lie is so far afield that it is plain that person is attempting to mislead the trier of fact."


[Edited 2/15/20 7:58am]


I don't think it's really that rare that people are charged with perjury or making false charges. I do think it is rare that the penalties for doing so are as harsh as the punishment for the crimes they are lying about.

Maybe somebody can dig up the statistics on this.

I might do some digging for statistics tomorrow morning. The source for my quote above was a legal website so I do trust it when it says perjury cases are rare.

Meanwhile, all I can say is that there have been some very powerful people who lied to save their own skins, or to project a certain image. Sadly, as usual they continue to get away with it. Which is why the person with less power often doesn't report stuff without rock solid proof - because they know they'll be accused of making it up. I simply don't buy that there are that many women crying rape, abuse or violence to the police for no other reason than they are nasty vindictive bitches (of course there are exceptions).

Be kind. If you can't be kind - say nothing.
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Reply #152 posted 02/15/20 9:39am

Pokeno4Money

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djThunderfunk said:

I don't think it's really that rare that people are charged with perjury or making false charges. I do think it is rare that the penalties for doing so are as harsh as the punishment for the crimes they are lying about.

Maybe somebody can dig up the statistics on this.


Crystal Mangum, who falsely accused Caucasian Duke athletes of rape, didn't get any jail time ... but was sentenced to a minimum of 14 years and maximum of 18 years for an unrelated murder.

crystal-magnum-mugshot.jpg


Tawana Brawley, who falsely accused four Caucasian men of rape, received no prison time.

tawanabrawley052way-7c58beebd613cdbbd09461ceb2a748c23bc800dd-s800-c85.jpg





This is a great article about how false accusers typically get off light, while those they accused are damaged for life.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/few-if-any-consequences-for-those-involved-in-perpetuating-rape-hoaxes

When a sensational rape story is found to be fraudulent, there are few ramifications for those who perpetuated the hoax in the first place.

To take the most recent example, no one is getting fired at Rolling Stone for its fraudulent article about a brutal gang rape at the University of Virginia. The fact-checkers who failed to raise sufficient concerns about the lack of corroborating evidence, the editors who removed crucial details that would have made the article's weaknesses clear, and the author who sought a sensational story to fit an agenda will all keep their jobs.


And beyond those at RS who allowed the hoax to go forward, those who helped spread the story once it was published faced no consequences either. U.Va. president Teresa Sullivan offered no apology for her role in treating Phi Kappa Psi, the fraternity accused in the RS article, as guilty from the start. Similarly, there appears to be no investigation to discover the vandals who smashed windows and spray-painted hateful messages at the fraternity house.


Jackie, the source of the false article, still has her privileged status as a victim, despite there being no evidence that she is the victim of anything.


The same was true of the Duke lacrosse hoax nearly a decade ago. Richard Brodhead is still the president of the university. Wendy Murphy, who spread lie after lie about the case on television throughout the ordeal, is still being asked for her opinion (in fact she was quoted in the now-retracted Rolling Stone article — go figure). The activists and professors who smeared the lacrosse players were never held accountable.


At least with Duke, the prosecutor who targeted the lacrosse players to advance his own personal ambitions was disbarred. The police officer who helped railroad the students was merely reassigned. (He retired in 2008 and committed suicide in 2014, although it is unclear whether his role in the hoax had anything to do with his death.) The accuser, Crystal Mangum, faced no repercussions for filing a false report, and in fact went on to write a book. But in an unrelated twist, she is now serving a prison sentence for second-degree murder.


In the case of Tawana Brawley — arguably the most famous rape hoax in modern U.S. history — she eluded paying defamation damages for 25 years. Al Sharpton, who embraced and lied about that case, has his own show on MSNBC today. Although he was ordered to pay damages as well, he refused for years before his friends finally paid his debt for him.


Meanwhile, in each of these cases, those accused in the initial hoax suffered far greater punishments than the liars who created the hoax. Phi Kappa Psi had their house vandalized and reputation greatly tarnished by the media without receiving an apology from anyone. (They're now suing.)



[Edited 2/15/20 9:43am]

"Never let nasty stalkers disrespect you. They start shit, you finish it. Go down to their level, that's the only way they'll understand. You have to handle things yourself."
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Reply #153 posted 02/15/20 9:43am

liljojo

maplenpg said:

The numbers already are very low.



Actually the numbers are high, especially after the #MeToo movement was taken over by liberal medial outlets. Nothing but false allegations and false journalism for clicks and views, money, and attention.


Put it like this, once you find out that nothing can happen to you punishment wise for your lies and you then get rewarded for lying, the sky is the limit. Right now females are living with no restrictions and it's already out of hand. So until something dramatic happens the false allegations will continue to grow. Stop believing the statistics hype and open your eyes to reality because the children are going to soon start lying on females and murdering females because that's what is being taught to them (trickle down effect). Right now we're living a thelema atmosphere (do as thy will), meaning people are doing whatever they feel like doing from lying to fighting and it is slowly killing relationships, bringing genders against each other in fake gender warfare, turning our children into sexually fluid and minded humans at very young ages, and causing all kinds of chaos and disorder. If you all keep lying about numbers being low on people lying about serious allegations then sooner or later you're going to kill any chance real victims have and the murder rate is going to skyrocket. In Florida alone we have over 2,000+ false allegations filed only by females to take out revenge on their ex and go to civil court or get a settlement for money. That number has grown since 2018, and other states with high false allegations are New York, California, Nevada, and Washington D.C.. So no the numbers are not low, it's just nobody is getting punished for falsely accusing children and males.

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Reply #154 posted 02/15/20 9:50am

Pokeno4Money

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liljojo said:

Actually the numbers are high, especially after the #MeToo movement was taken over by liberal medial outlets. Nothing but false allegations and false journalism for clicks and views, money, and attention.



Put it like this, once you find out that nothing can happen to you punishment wise for your lies and you then get rewarded for lying, the sky is the limit. Right now females are living with no restrictions and it's already out of hand. So until something dramatic happens the false allegations will continue to grow. Stop believing the statistics hype and open your eyes to reality because the children are going to soon start lying on females and murdering females because that's what is being taught to them (trickle down effect). Right now we're living a thelema atmosphere (do as thy will), meaning people are doing whatever they feel like doing from lying to fighting and it is slowly killing relationships, bringing genders against each other in fake gender warfare, turning our children into sexually fluid and minded humans at very young ages, and causing all kinds of chaos and disorder. If you all keep lying about numbers being low on people lying about serious allegations then sooner or later you're going to kill any chance real victims have and the murder rate is going to skyrocket. In Florida alone we have over 2,000+ false allegations filed only by females to take out revenge on their ex and go to civil court or get a settlement for money. That number has grown since 2018, and other states with high false allegations are New York, California, Nevada, and Washington D.C.. So no the numbers are not low, it's just nobody is getting punished for falsely accusing children and males.


Right you are! A while back I posted a website that keeps track of false hate crimes that were reported, it was an astonishingly high number. I'm sure the same can be said for false domestic-related accusations.

"Never let nasty stalkers disrespect you. They start shit, you finish it. Go down to their level, that's the only way they'll understand. You have to handle things yourself."
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Reply #155 posted 02/15/20 10:11am

liljojo

maplenpg said:

liljojo said:



Too bad the justice system doesn't give out the same punishment for all crimes nor for both genders, otherwise females wouldn't be out abusing and killing children, other females, and males. Then get a slap on the wrist punishment, only to repeat the same lie or abusement over and over again. I've seen underage children get higher and more extreme punishments for stuff they either didn't do or for the same stuff their grown female counterpart did but got probation for or a lighter jail sentence. As for what I said it can be lowered later, throughout our justice system we have started off with extreme punishments when new laws was put into place starting with the crack and cocaine laws, and the domestic abuse laws, both easily giving you life to the death sentence. Throughout time it was lowered down to the point weed is becoming legal in many states. Point being you have to put fear in lying people hearts and minds so they think twice before lying on innocent people. Right now you're typing what you feel at this moment, but if Jussie lied on you or you was lied on for rape and had to serve a 10+ years sentence for something you didn't do and then get out of prison only to find out you can't make a living because nobody will hire you and lose love ones over a lie then you would change your tone.


It's two people in this world the 2 dimensional thinker and the 3 dimensional thinker. The 2D only see what's infront of them or what's happening to them. The 3D see what's infront of them and what's going to happen in the near future based of the actions of themselves and others around them.

I've worked in a high security jail. Trust me, if everyone who was accused of lying got charged the penal system would be in a right mess, and many guilty parties would get away with their crimes. Making false accusations is not new, so I don't see the need for massively heavy handed reactions to it. Heavy penalties for people found to be telling lies prevent those telling the truth coming forward, especially with historical sex abuse cases, and especially when someone powerful is involved. No-one who is a victim wants to be accused of telling lies, and the more 'liars' that get charged, the more real victims will stay away and the abusers win.

It's not 2D thinking at all, there will be no more men or women making false accusations just because a couple of famous people cried wolf and got caught. No need to throw the book at those people, they already did it to themselves. But the statistics show that the vast, vast majority of people who go to the police to report crimes are telling the truth. I see no reason we should be cynical of those that want to report crimes - it's the job of the police to find out whether the crime has happened or not, and if there is enough evidence to make a charge. It is during these investigations that questions may be asked about the trustworthiness of the accuser in the first place.

If you want 3D thinking, then think about why prostitutes often don't report robberies, or beatings, or rapes. It is because they think they won't be believed. Because they think (sometimes rightly) that the cops will judge them before they judge the man that raped them, and they know that even if the man gets caught he'll accuse them of telling lies. Why don't women report the rich and famous when they get sexually abused by them/ Because they will be accused of gold-digging, of making up stories to make money, that is why they don't report it, and the abuse continues. Putting a huge sentence of the very few liars will not stop the abuse, or rape, or whatever of the many sadly.



I'm not talking about a couple of people or just celebrities, I'm talking about everybody for the first few years to serve hard prison time for lying about harsh crimes. It's either that or put camera's on every single block and in every single vehicle. Also trust me it's enough prisons in the USA to lock up 100 million people and to keep the prison stocks booming. We can do hard jail time/minimum like I told Ace the same jail time the person would've got for the crime or we can sit back and wait for a citizens war to breakout and then act fake shocked when the military have to move in with law enforcement to clean up the mess.


Also I believe Cardi B answered your prostitute question. Don't forget to add females in the rape argument too. See all the points you're trying to have and would have ended 10 years ago. We're pass that now, right now we're at the beginning stages of judgement and rebellion meaning people are starting to prepare for in city wars within western society as things ratchet up. People are tired of being lied on, men are tired of being disrespected judged by the few bad males and celebrities, children are tired of being forced to grow up, good women are tired of being grouped with liberal feminist and fake victims, citizens are tired of being told to give up their guns (so the government can then force whatever they want the citizens), boys are tired of being overlooked in rape/molestation reports, men are tired of losing their livelihood over false allegations, young boys are tired of being forsaken by america that's why groups like MGTOW and INCEL are happening.



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Reply #156 posted 02/15/20 10:47am

djThunderfunk

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Pokeno4Money said:


Right you are! A while back I posted a website that keeps track of false hate crimes that were reported, it was an astonishingly high number. I'm sure the same can be said for false domestic-related accusations.


Another problem is that when people bring discuss false hate crimes or false abuse allegations they are accused of defending rapists and racists, or their motivations are questioned or they are attacked and labeled themselves.

If people cannot openly discuss the problems of false allegations and critisize and condemn people who commit them without being attacked themselves, the issue becomes part of the political divide.

Hence this topic being place in P&R, to answer Ace's previous comments about that.

EDIT: Just noticed this, over in the jussie thread, the argument has been made today that the discussion is just "a diversion and a way to downplay real hate crimes, or try to create a false sense of parity".

The message is, if you talk about false accusations you are the enemy because by condemning the false accusers you are supporting the perpetraters of real crimes.

My message is, by downplaying false accusations you are supporting the perpetraters of real crime because those that make the false allegation make it harder for all the real victims out there.

Seems pretty clear which of these messages is truth and which is bullshit.



[Edited 2/15/20 10:58am]

Mensa is the largest and oldest high IQ society in the world. It is a non-profit organization open to people who score at the 98th percentile or higher on a standardised, supervised IQ or other approved intelligence test.
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Reply #157 posted 02/15/20 10:51am

maplenpg

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I don't know if the US has heard of Caroline Flack or not, but over here she's a well known TV presenter. Around Christmas time she had an incident with her boyfriend, which led to the police charging her with domestic violence charges, even though the boyfriend refused to press charges (FWIW I do think she was guilty of violence towards her bf). The press have been relentless, really horribly relentless about her; social media too. She's just been found dead.

Violence is a learned behaviour. Unlearning that behaviour is not easy. That is not giving violent people of any gender a pass, but we should recognise that it's often much more complex than it might seem to those judging from the sidelines. I'll say it again, drink and drugs are often involved too.

Be kind. If you can't be kind - say nothing.
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Reply #158 posted 02/15/20 5:11pm

poppys

maplenpg said:

I don't know if the US has heard of Caroline Flack or not, but over here she's a well known TV presenter. Around Christmas time she had an incident with her boyfriend, which led to the police charging her with domestic violence charges, even though the boyfriend refused to press charges (FWIW I do think she was guilty of violence towards her bf). The press have been relentless, really horribly relentless about her; social media too. She's just been found dead.

Violence is a learned behaviour. Unlearning that behaviour is not easy. That is not giving violent people of any gender a pass, but we should recognise that it's often much more complex than it might seem to those judging from the sidelines. I'll say it again, drink and drugs are often involved too.


Great points, maplenpg.

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Reply #159 posted 02/18/20 4:36pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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maplenpg said:

I don't know if the US has heard of Caroline Flack or not, but over here she's a well known TV presenter. Around Christmas time she had an incident with her boyfriend, which led to the police charging her with domestic violence charges, even though the boyfriend refused to press charges (FWIW I do think she was guilty of violence towards her bf). The press have been relentless, really horribly relentless about her; social media too. She's just been found dead.

Violence is a learned behaviour. Unlearning that behaviour is not easy. That is not giving violent people of any gender a pass, but we should recognise that it's often much more complex than it might seem to those judging from the sidelines. I'll say it again, drink and drugs are often involved too.


nod very good points ^

"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Reply #160 posted 02/21/20 9:07am

XxAxX

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Ace said:

Pokeno4Money said:

And if guys get shit thrown at them or attacked by women, what's the guy to do?


Leave.

A man doesn't hit a woman. And it's clear from this recording that he did more than "push" her in return.


And I was believing his side of the story until I listened to this.

No doubt she's troubled (as I've long believed he is) and it sounds like she would "start it". But I don't care. Beating on a woman is completely unacceptable (the sole exception being if your life is in danger and you have literally no escape).

yeah? how about other forms of abuse against women? justifiable?

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Reply #161 posted 02/25/20 10:13pm

Ace

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XxAxX said:

Ace said:


Leave.

A man doesn't hit a woman. And it's clear from this recording that he did more than "push" her in return.


And I was believing his side of the story until I listened to this.

No doubt she's troubled (as I've long believed he is) and it sounds like she would "start it". But I don't care. Beating on a woman is completely unacceptable (the sole exception being if your life is in danger and you have literally no escape).

yeah? how about other forms of abuse against women? justifiable?


Huh? confuse

"Acceptance, forgiveness, and love."
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Reply #162 posted 02/26/20 2:36am

Pokeno4Money

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Should we start a separate thread for Hayden Panettiere? Now that is somebody who clearly is screwed up to stay in that relationship.

"Never let nasty stalkers disrespect you. They start shit, you finish it. Go down to their level, that's the only way they'll understand. You have to handle things yourself."
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