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Reply #90 posted 01/14/20 9:23pm

Pokeno4Money

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jjhunsecker said:

I'll go through this point by point.

1. What if a German family in Germany, or a German American family here, decided to honor their relatives who fought "bravely" in World War II, and put up a statue or a placque or a flag to celebrate their achievements on the battlefield ? Would you see a problem with that ? Or how about your Muslim neighbors who decided to put up a monument to Mohammed Atta and the other 9/11 hijackers, and said "While we don't fully agree with their beliefs, we feel we must honor their bravery and devotion to their cause" ? I wonder how THAT would go down...Remember, a German can say a Nazi ancestor was part of their "heritage", too.

2. People like Richard Pryor and Redd Foxx and Chris Rock and Eddie Murphy and Dave Chappele are artists , and their art form is story telling and the use of WORDS to not only make people laugh, but think about society as well. I am not going to tell an artist what words he can use, the same way I wouldn't tell a painter what color paint he or she should use, or a photographer what lens he must use. That is the artist's choice, and you can either accept it and enjoy it, or criticize it, or question it. Or , in the case of folks like yourself, who simply do not want to hear certain words that the artist has chosen to use to express themselves, you can simply tune out. If you don't like to hear something that Chris Rock says or Richard Pryor said, if you find it "offensive", then simply don't watch or listen to it. But don't tell ME what I'm allowed to see or hear or read.

3. I think they certainly SHOULD play "Money for Nothing" unedited . That was the way the song was created. Also, in the song, Knopfler is not singing his own personal perspective, but creating a character, one who would say such a horrible thing. It may not be "nice" or "respectable", but it's REAL. And sometimes reality is ugly and uncomfortable. The same with "One in a Million"...the views heard in that song represent the thinking of a certain strain of (White) people in America....so much so I'm surprised Trump doesn't use it as a campaign song ! (I'm sure Stephen Miller plays it on a loop on Spotify in his earbuds)....

Works of art like "To Kill A Mockingbird" or "Do the Right Thing" or "Django Unchained" or "Taxi Driver" or "All in the Family", even the chappelle "Clayton Bigsby" skit, would not be true to reality if they didn't use certain words, especially "racial slurs". These works would actually be DIMINISHED if they didn't show these perspectives raw and unvarished. I can disagree with certain choices, maybe even be personally offended by them, but that comes from evaluating each work of art on a case by case basis. A true artist gives their perpective on the world, not just what people want to hear , or what makes them feel comfortable or soothed , or have the truth whitewashed or dumbed down.

4. What you "suggested "- bleeping or changing words- is censorship , no matter how you try to portray it ...No work of art should be altered to conform to modern sensibilities, even if it just to be used as social history so people can understand how others felt and acted, in the past or even the present. And I don't want to erase history, or forget it.


Any family that owns property has the right to put up a statue honoring their relatives, on their own property of course. Not sure what you're getting at here.

My point remains, those comedians don't need to use the "n-word" to be funny or successful. They use it for shock value more than anything.

Good thing cborgman isn't reading this thread! lol While I respect your opinion on this, you do realize your support in removing/banning statues contradicts your support in not removing or banning offensive words in the world of entertainment.

Good discussion.

There's only 6 states in the US that don't allow Open Carry: Cali, FL, IL, NY, SC, DC. While SC's gun murder rate is DOUBLE that of Texas, DC's is 6 TIMES that of Texas! https://en.m.wikipedia.or...s_by_state
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Reply #91 posted 01/15/20 5:35am

jjhunsecker

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Pokeno4Money said:



jjhunsecker said:




I'll go through this point by point.




1. What if a German family in Germany, or a German American family here, decided to honor their relatives who fought "bravely" in World War II, and put up a statue or a placque or a flag to celebrate their achievements on the battlefield ? Would you see a problem with that ? Or how about your Muslim neighbors who decided to put up a monument to Mohammed Atta and the other 9/11 hijackers, and said "While we don't fully agree with their beliefs, we feel we must honor their bravery and devotion to their cause" ? I wonder how THAT would go down...Remember, a German can say a Nazi ancestor was part of their "heritage", too.



2. People like Richard Pryor and Redd Foxx and Chris Rock and Eddie Murphy and Dave Chappele are artists , and their art form is story telling and the use of WORDS to not only make people laugh, but think about society as well. I am not going to tell an artist what words he can use, the same way I wouldn't tell a painter what color paint he or she should use, or a photographer what lens he must use. That is the artist's choice, and you can either accept it and enjoy it, or criticize it, or question it. Or , in the case of folks like yourself, who simply do not want to hear certain words that the artist has chosen to use to express themselves, you can simply tune out. If you don't like to hear something that Chris Rock says or Richard Pryor said, if you find it "offensive", then simply don't watch or listen to it. But don't tell ME what I'm allowed to see or hear or read.



3. I think they certainly SHOULD play "Money for Nothing" unedited . That was the way the song was created. Also, in the song, Knopfler is not singing his own personal perspective, but creating a character, one who would say such a horrible thing. It may not be "nice" or "respectable", but it's REAL. And sometimes reality is ugly and uncomfortable. The same with "One in a Million"...the views heard in that song represent the thinking of a certain strain of (White) people in America....so much so I'm surprised Trump doesn't use it as a campaign song ! (I'm sure Stephen Miller plays it on a loop on Spotify in his earbuds)....



Works of art like "To Kill A Mockingbird" or "Do the Right Thing" or "Django Unchained" or "Taxi Driver" or "All in the Family", even the chappelle "Clayton Bigsby" skit, would not be true to reality if they didn't use certain words, especially "racial slurs". These works would actually be DIMINISHED if they didn't show these perspectives raw and unvarished. I can disagree with certain choices, maybe even be personally offended by them, but that comes from evaluating each work of art on a case by case basis. A true artist gives their perpective on the world, not just what people want to hear , or what makes them feel comfortable or soothed , or have the truth whitewashed or dumbed down.



4. What you "suggested "- bleeping or changing words- is censorship , no matter how you try to portray it ...No work of art should be altered to conform to modern sensibilities, even if it just to be used as social history so people can understand how others felt and acted, in the past or even the present. And I don't want to erase history, or forget it.




Any family that owns property has the right to put up a statue honoring their relatives, on their own property of course. Not sure what you're getting at here.

My point remains, those comedians don't need to use the "n-word" to be funny or successful. They use it for shock value more than anything.

Good thing cborgman isn't reading this thread! lol While I respect your opinion on this, you do realize your support in removing/banning statues contradicts your support in not removing or banning offensive words in the world of entertainment.

Good discussion.



To clarify my point, I didn’t mean an individual putting up a statue on their own private property. I meant that if a city like Dearborn, Michigan- which has a large Arabic population- put up a statue honoring Mohammed Atta in their town square. Or a city in Minnesota or someplace with a large German community putting up a statue honoring the bravery of General Rommel. How do you think that would go over?

And if you just think that comedians like Pryor and Rock and Chappelle use these words merely for “shock value “, then I can’t help you... either you get it or you don’t. I hope you have the new Disney Plus app for your TV... that type of entertainment might be more your speed
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Reply #92 posted 01/15/20 8:05am

poppys

All this statue stuff is a topic derail and a false equivalency anyway.

We can have another thread on statues, we've had some before. They are publicly owned and maintained by taxpayers, apart from the "message". So MANY people in history and modern day are overlooked as good models for statues, why is that?

The majority of ALL the people in my city wanted the statues to go. Wynton Marsalis suggested to Mayor Landrieu it would be a good thing to do and he agreed. People who say they believe in majority rule and especially states rights should have no concern with this anyway, and butt out unless they want to protest statues being replaced in their own back yard.

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Reply #93 posted 01/15/20 9:01am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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jjhunsecker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

If you truly knew what the N-word meant to our ancestors, you'd NEVER use it

It was used and still can be used to make us hate ourselves

By Brando Simeo Starkey

A few years ago, I read slave narratives to explore the lives of black agricultural workers after the end of the Civil War. The narratives came from the Federal Writers Project of the Works Progress Administration, a program that employed researchers from 1936 to 1938 to interview former enslaved people, producing more than 2,300 narratives that, thankfully, reside online and are fully searchable.

Those whom the law defined as property recounted various unique human experiences — their daily horrors and monotonies, how they freed themselves or learned of their emancipation, the surge of exhilaration upon securing freedom, and how they endured life on the edges of a white supremacist society in the decades thereafter.

As I pored over the narratives, I was struck less by their experiences, as heartrending as they were, than by how their experiences sculpted their self-perceptions. The best explanation of what I gleaned, what social scientists called internalized oppression, describes the psychological trauma that ensues when a person from a stigmatized group believes those negative stigmas.

White folk indoctrinated them into accepting their supposed inferiority. These narratives illustrate the success of this campaign of mental terrorism, and no word conveyed the depth of this internalized oppression more than "nigger." Now, whenever I hear the epithet, a visual and emotional representation of the heinous process by which a people — my people — were induced to think they were less than trespasses into my thoughts. After years of habitual use of "nigger," I banished it from my speech to honor the humanity that many never saw in themselves.

The internalized oppression revealed itself in various ways. Sometimes the former enslaved people clearly, perhaps subconsciously, considered themselves subhuman, just like how their former owners regarded them. Jim Allen, for example, dubbed himself his master's "pet nigger boy" and a "stray" and thought himself privileged because he could sleep on the floor beside his master's bed. That he likened himself to a fortunate mangy mutt or frisky feline crushed me. The word laid bare a worldview that held black folk as a lower order of being, as when Irene Robertson claimed her former master Mr. Sanders was mean, in part, because "he beat his wife like he beat a nigger woman."

"Nigger" also signaled antipathy toward fellow black folk. After the end of slavery, Mattie Mooreman went north to Wisconsin with a white family for whom she worked. Members of the family wanted her to go to the circus to watch a black boy's performance. She told her interviewer, "Guess they thought it would be a treat to me to see another niggah. I told 'em, 'Law, don't you think I see lots, lots more than I wants, every day when I is at home?' " But read how she talks about the family's baby, whom she constantly watched over, fearing, irrationally, someone would kidnap him: "No matter what time they come home they'd find me there. 'Why don't you go in your bedroom and lie down?' they'd ask me. 'No,' I'd tell 'em, 'somebody might come in, and they would have to get that baby over my dead body." Her eyes fixated on the white baby, but she saw too many niggers.

read more here: https://theundefeated.com...er-use-it/

What if the word is used in an artistic endeavor to illustrate the ugliness and stupidity and the hatred that word can convey? Or what if was used in a comic manner, to satirize those same perspectives? Should the word- one of the most powerful in the English language- be completely off limits?

You mean like in rap songs? that kind of artistic endeavor?

It's been used in both ways you've expressed, when I've heard it used in most cases it is derogatory toward other black folk.

I don't know if it is one of the most powerful in the English language. I don't know what you mean by that.

Also people can email the author of the article too

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #94 posted 01/15/20 9:12am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.

If you've been listening to the news or watching or downloading video from the Internet, you have probably heard the N-word recently. And this week, the Reverend Jesse Jackson called for a complete ban on it. His plea came after a comedy club rant by comedian Michael Richards, who later apologized. The back and forth has sparked a national conversation. Now, we'll take it a step further.

How are artists responding to the proposed ban on the N-word? Some say using it is offensive, others say it's simply free speech. We spoke earlier with rapper KRS-One and comedian Paul Mooney. KRS-One led the seminal rap group Boogie Down Productions or BDP whose 1988 album contained the track "Stop the Violence."

KRS-One whose name is Chris Parker is also the founder of The Temple of Hip-Hop, an organization preserving hip-hop history. And comedian Paul Mooney has entertained audiences for more than 30 years. He's played on the Chappelle Show and on stages around the world.

Before we start, an important advisory, in our conversation about the N-word, we will actually use the word. We started out with a 24 year old comedy routine that could have come out of today's headlines.

.

It's Richard Pryor from 1982 and he explains why after years of using the N-word in his comedy, he suddenly put it off limits.

.

Mr. RICHARD PRYOR (Comedian): And a voice said to me said look around, what do you see? And I said, I see all colors of people doing everything, you know. And a voice said do you see any ni&&ers? I said no. And I said, you know why? Because there aren't any. And it hit me like a shot. Man, I started crying (bleep). While sitting, I said yeah, I've been here three weeks. I haven't even said it. I haven't even thought it. And it made me say oh, my God, I've been wrong. I said, I ain't going never call another black man - ni&&er.

(Soundbite of applause)

You know, because we never was no ni&&ers. That's a word that's used to describe our own wretchedness. And we perpetuate it now because it's dead. We come from the first people on the earth. We're the first ones to say, where (bleep) am I? And how do you get to Detroit?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #95 posted 01/15/20 9:19am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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https://www.npr.org/transcripts/6560171

CHIDEYA: Now, Paul, you, I'm sure, know those words well because you helped write Richard Pryor's material on that Live from the Sunset Strip tour. So did you guys talked about this as, you know, jointly about the decision not to use the N-word?

Mr. PAUL MOONEY (Comedian): Yeah, we did and it was quite dramatic because we had made money of the word, we had got famous off the word. And we had a romance with the word and we were married to it. And Richard came out - this came out of nowhere and it was such fun, and Richard came back from Africa, very serious about it and talked to me. And at that time, I was so caught up in it. I couldn't see the forest for the N-word. I said -

CHIDEYA: But you thought he was wrong?

Mr. MOONEY: I said that's for you, that ain't for me. And I - because he got up on stage and announced it at The Comedy Store, and I said - and Robin Williams was there - a lot of people were there. And I got up and I followed them, I said, well, all of you are N-words to me, all of you are.

To him, that's his decision because he is his own person and I'm my own person. And that was real. And the times and the situation that it was not - I told him, I said Richard, how could you give that up, you know, we - it was such a tool.

So Richard did that and Richard's career changed, and so at the time I was thinking I was saying, you know what? How them white folks sit Richard down. I bet they didn't even no Africa, you know, this has been on my mind and told him don't say that will do this because his whole career changed. I said that's what this is about - economics, I thought. But I ended up - I was wrong and he was totally right.

And seeing the Michael Richards tape, I had an out-of-body experience because I've never been outside of myself. And I saw the weapon that it was. It was like a nuclear bomb and it just came from - it just hit me. I mean, he was actually my Dr. Phil, he cured me with the word.

It wasn't a stand-up performance, it was actually - and I'm not being funny, a nervous breakdown. He's not in denial about it, he knows he has that in him and he's very sorry for it. I've known man over 20 years and I was in a private room with that man.

He grabbed a hold of me like, he was so glad I was there, and he was so glad I didn't jump on him. And he was so apologetic and he really, at least he knows that. People suppressed and hide it because we live in a racist society and society has taken responsibility for it, too.

CHIDEYA: All right. Let me go to KRS-One. You really have pushed the concept of entertainment, really using hip-hop in a conscious way. But you had one of your songs with BDP that was called "House Niggers".

KRS-ONE (Rapper): Mm-hmm.

CHIDEYA: Do you - what was your intent in using the word, do you regret it?

KRS-ONE: I would start with who has the power to decide. This is what hip-hop deals with because even the word, hip-hop, is a made-up word. And when you look at our entire language, it's not just nigga, N-I-G-G-A that we used or transform, I should say.

It is fly and dope and hoe, H-O-E is - that word doesn't exist. It's either whore or hoe as in a garden tool. Hip-hop is taken that and created new words and new terms to match our intelligence.

Yes, N-I-G-G-E-R is offensive, no doubt about it. Any hip-hopper will tell you straight up, if you don't speak to me in the entire hip-hop language, meaning, you're coming at me with all the transformed words and then you use the word nigger.

Now, I understand where you're coming from. You part of the family. You got with us. But if you are going to use straight up, you know, correct English or CNN English and then slip the word nigger, no, you violated right there.

CHIDEYA: So what you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that you can use the word if you're in-house but not if you're out-of-house. But, you know, I mean -

KRS-ONE: According to hip-hop, in our rules, yes. Nigger to me is not offensive at all. To me, in hip-hop, if somebody said something like they're like for instance, if Eminem had of called us niggers, which he does, and himself, by the way, there would have been another rapper who would have stepped up and challenged him in rap.

Meaning that, to me, if you're a comedian and you're using the word nigger and you use it out of context, where other comedians are then saying, wait a minute, you cross the line here on this issue.

Then I think the battle should start. May the best orator of the word win because that's what words are. They are - its linguistic poetry - I describe the world; the world does not a described me, that's hip-hop.

CHIDEYA: Paul, words do have a certain power. I mean -

Mr. MOONEY: No, well, he doesn't see. His generation doesn't come from a lynching generation. And hasn't seen what we've seen and what Emmett Till went through. And they're defining their own existence and the Nazis did that, Hitler did that. They hailed Hitler, they had their own private little thing that keep the world away and to dislike a thing.

And this is America and it's your decision, but this is a word for me - I mean, it's just for me. I'm just a recovering N-word-aholic, been there, done that.

So I realize a drunk when I see one. I understand all of it. And our society is really to blame for all of this. It creates these monsters. It's the Doctor Frankenstein of our world. See as a black people, whether you use hip-hop or not hip-hop or punk rock or whatever it is.

If they bring back slavery and start picking up black people again to make them slaves, they'll pick the hip-hoppers, me, and everybody else. And they'll pick up Mariah Carey, they'll pick up everybody.

It's to keep us divided. It's to keep us from Willie Lynch syndrome - it's the young not respecting the old. And I don't want that. I want that now us - we come from the land of kings and queens. And we got to pick ourselves up, we can't let anyone else do it, as a black race and I want to be celebrated, not tolerated and to come together and unite. And we got to get this out - we got to destroy that word. We got to bury it. We really do have to do that and, seriously, on whatever level.

CHIDEYA: Well, okay. Let me go back to Kris, KRS-ONE.

KRS-ONE: Yeah.

CHIDEYA: What do you think about these calls in and among certain folks of profile in the community to say, you know what? We just need to drop it.

KRS-ONE: Yeah. I would follow something like that but only if - well, should I say with conditions. The condition is this, if you respect my intelligence, I'll respect yours. So if you want the N-word to stop, for rappers to stop saying the N-word, then we're going to have to sit down and we're going to have to discuss what that word means to you and what that word means to us.

Mr. MOONEY: And you know what? I agree with you and I'm going to tell you something funny. And I know you - because you have a sense of humor. I already know that. You are very bright and I'm not dumb. I've discussed this with Whoopi Goldberg, and you know what she said to me?

KRS-ONE: What?

Mr. MOONEY: She said give me an N-pass because I got to curse somebody out Friday. After that, I'll stop saying it.

KRS-ONE: That is funny. That is funny.

Mr. MOONEY: She wanted a pass.

KRS-ONE: That's how I would approach it. Representing hip-hop is - what if we did ask NAACP and so on for a pass? When we did our concerts, we put a pass forward and how would you get approved? Well, based on your conduct for the year. How did you add to the collective vision of African-Americans in the country or just black people in the country? How did you add to that? Here is your pass.

But I'll tell you this, there is something - the reason I bring intelligence into this is because I think that's what's really lacking. Does freedom of speech have anything to do with this or are we beyond that?

Mr. MOONEY: No. We're beyond this. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

KRS-ONE: Okay. Okay.

CHIDEYA: Oh, but a lot of folks say it is freedom of speech.

Mr. MOONEY: Based - that's a trap.

KRS-ONE: Okay. But wait a minute, well, even if it -

Mr. MOONEY: Wait a minute. A lot of people say, oh, I'm Spanish. No, you speak Spanish. Don't get trapped in that. You have to be smarter than that.

CHIDEYA: All right.

KRS-ONE: Well, here is - wait - this is the point right here, is that we're not thinking about the word, we're emotionalizing the word because if you think about the word...

Mr. MOONEY: Well, sir...

KRS-ONE: We're...

Mr. MOONEY: Listen, we're going to get together as a people and we're going to discuss this intelligently. We're going to have a conference on this. We're going to do this and...

CHIDEYA: Well, you're starting out, Paul, by having your first N-word free show in D.C.

Mr. MOONEY: Yeah, in Washington, D.C. at the Lincoln Theater. It's myself and Dick Gregory. And it's this Saturday and we're doing two shows and we want everybody to come out. And we're going to try to straighten this thing out. And even if they have taken the word - from the N-word to riggers and I'm glad...

CHIDEYA: When you say they, who do you mean?

Mr. MOONEY: They - you. When I say they, you figure it out. Okay. They. Anyway, yeah, that's such a (unintelligible). White people have - very clever with words. That's why they say the race card that came from O.J. And I'm not interested in the race card. I'm interested in how do they get in the deck. That's what I want to know.

CHIDEYA: Okay. Well, on that note, I am sure we are going to get a lot of letters. I've been talking to comedy great, Paul Mooney, who has worked with everyone from Richard Pryor to Red Fox, Dave Chappelle who was here with us at NPR West giving me grief. And also KRS-ONE, hip-hop artist, philosopher and founder of the Temple of Hip-hop. Thanks to both of you.

Mr. MOONEY: Thanks, Farai.

KRS-ONE: Okay. Bye-bye.

(Soundbite of song)

Oh, black y'all. And I'm black, y'all. And I'm blacker than black, you know(ph), black y'all. And I'm black, y'all. And I'm blickety(ph) black, black, black, blacker than black, black, I'm blackety(ph) black, yo. Because I'm black and I'm back.

CHIDEYA: Coming up, our panel weighs in on this discussion of the N-word, plus, more on our Roundtable, next.

Copyright © 2006 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by Verb8tm, Inc., an NPR contractor, and produced using a proprietary transcription process developed with NPR. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR's programming is the audio record.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #96 posted 01/15/20 9:33am

jjhunsecker

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:



jjhunsecker said:


OldFriends4Sale said:



If you truly knew what the N-word meant to our ancestors, you'd NEVER use it


It was used and still can be used to make us hate ourselves





By Brando Simeo Starkey



A few years ago, I read slave narratives to explore the lives of black agricultural workers after the end of the Civil War. The narratives came from the Federal Writers Project of the Works Progress Administration, a program that employed researchers from 1936 to 1938 to interview former enslaved people, producing more than 2,300 narratives that, thankfully, reside online and are fully searchable.



Those whom the law defined as property recounted various unique human experiences — their daily horrors and monotonies, how they freed themselves or learned of their emancipation, the surge of exhilaration upon securing freedom, and how they endured life on the edges of a white supremacist society in the decades thereafter.



As I pored over the narratives, I was struck less by their experiences, as heartrending as they were, than by how their experiences sculpted their self-perceptions. The best explanation of what I gleaned, what social scientists called internalized oppression, describes the psychological trauma that ensues when a person from a stigmatized group believes those negative stigmas.


White folk indoctrinated them into accepting their supposed inferiority. These narratives illustrate the success of this campaign of mental terrorism, and no word conveyed the depth of this internalized oppression more than "nigger." Now, whenever I hear the epithet, a visual and emotional representation of the heinous process by which a people — my people — were induced to think they were less than trespasses into my thoughts. After years of habitual use of "nigger," I banished it from my speech to honor the humanity that many never saw in themselves.


The internalized oppression revealed itself in various ways. Sometimes the former enslaved people clearly, perhaps subconsciously, considered themselves subhuman, just like how their former owners regarded them. Jim Allen, for example, dubbed himself his master's "pet nigger boy" and a "stray" and thought himself privileged because he could sleep on the floor beside his master's bed. That he likened himself to a fortunate mangy mutt or frisky feline crushed me. The word laid bare a worldview that held black folk as a lower order of being, as when Irene Robertson claimed her former master Mr. Sanders was mean, in part, because "he beat his wife like he beat a nigger woman."



"Nigger" also signaled antipathy toward fellow black folk. After the end of slavery, Mattie Mooreman went north to Wisconsin with a white family for whom she worked. Members of the family wanted her to go to the circus to watch a black boy's performance. She told her interviewer, "Guess they thought it would be a treat to me to see another niggah. I told 'em, 'Law, don't you think I see lots, lots more than I wants, every day when I is at home?' " But read how she talks about the family's baby, whom she constantly watched over, fearing, irrationally, someone would kidnap him: "No matter what time they come home they'd find me there. 'Why don't you go in your bedroom and lie down?' they'd ask me. 'No,' I'd tell 'em, 'somebody might come in, and they would have to get that baby over my dead body." Her eyes fixated on the white baby, but she saw too many niggers.



read more here: https://theundefeated.com...er-use-it/



What if the word is used in an artistic endeavor to illustrate the ugliness and stupidity and the hatred that word can convey? Or what if was used in a comic manner, to satirize those same perspectives? Should the word- one of the most powerful in the English language- be completely off limits?



You mean like in rap songs? that kind of artistic endeavor?



It's been used in both ways you've expressed, when I've heard it used in most cases it is derogatory toward other black folk.



I don't know if it is one of the most powerful in the English language. I don't know what you mean by that.



Also people can email the author of the article too



Rap songs are artistic endeavors. They can be BAD art, or STUPID art, or GREAT art (just like anything else)... you can like it or hate it or be indifferent to it. That’s up to individual taste. And if you or anybody else are offended by something you hear in a song, that’s OK too....As long as nobody tells me I can’t listen to it or I must be offended too.

What OTHER word would have people debating it’s usage and history? We’ve been debating it here over 4 pages. Of course it’s one of the most powerful words in the English language, if not THE most powerful. A word that even today- if used by the wrong person in the wrong circumstances- could lead to even violence and murder. What other word holds such power in America?
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Reply #97 posted 01/15/20 9:40am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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jjhunsecker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You mean like in rap songs? that kind of artistic endeavor?

It's been used in both ways you've expressed, when I've heard it used in most cases it is derogatory toward other black folk.

I don't know if it is one of the most powerful in the English language. I don't know what you mean by that.

Also people can email the author of the article too

Rap songs are artistic endeavors. They can be BAD art, or STUPID art, or GREAT art (just like anything else)... you can like it or hate it or be indifferent to it. That’s up to individual taste. And if you or anybody else are offended by something you hear in a song, that’s OK too....As long as nobody tells me I can’t listen to it or I must be offended too. What OTHER word would have people debating it’s usage and history? We’ve been debating it here over 4 pages. Of course it’s one of the most powerful words in the English language, if not THE most powerful. A word that even today- if used by the wrong person in the wrong circumstances- could lead to even violence and murder. What other word holds such power in America?

I think the rap artistic endeavor has not helped, actually it helped bring out a more gutter way of approaching life.

I like rap music, the early 80s scene I didn't have to deal with the N word.
I'm still troubled by the Roots(who don't use it anymore from my memory) and Common two of my longstanding favs. Because I love their music and hate that word.
And I cannot remember a place where they used it in a constructive/historical way.

"A skinny ni&&a" -Common
I love Cedric the Entertainer as well, love him. His last netflix show has me on the floor, but I always feel a zonk out when he said the n word.

And there was no real extra-that made it funny

.

I don't think its the most powerful. But it is in the top 3 of the most conflicted.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #98 posted 01/15/20 1:59pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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as a person that doesn't use that word I have to say that although I can see how it can be a different word given the context or motive or who is or how it is being used...

if one uses a word...any word... they have no real moral ground to get all grumpy if anyone else uses it.

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #99 posted 01/15/20 2:22pm

jjhunsecker

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I can tell my kid something is a stupid idea or that he’s acting like an idiot. His teacher CANNOT.

I can tell my wife something she said sounds really bitchy. Her boss or her waiter CANNOT.

My family can say I’m behaving like a jerk. A stranger or my Uber Driver CANNOT.

It’s not really that hard to grasp
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Reply #100 posted 01/15/20 2:53pm

Pokeno4Money

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jjhunsecker said:

To clarify my point, I didn’t mean an individual putting up a statue on their own private property. I meant that if a city like Dearborn, Michigan- which has a large Arabic population- put up a statue honoring Mohammed Atta in their town square. Or a city in Minnesota or someplace with a large German community putting up a statue honoring the bravery of General Rommel. How do you think that would go over? And if you just think that comedians like Pryor and Rock and Chappelle use these words merely for “shock value “, then I can’t help you... either you get it or you don’t. I hope you have the new Disney Plus app for your TV... that type of entertainment might be more your speed


Okay well you DID say family honoring a relative. lol

Your analogy is a poor one, as only those who have actually accomplished many very positive things impacting the area where the statue is erected and actually made a very positive and significant contribution to the same community are considered for statues.

Did you know PG-13 movies are allowed to use the F-word, but only once. Think about why.

There's only 6 states in the US that don't allow Open Carry: Cali, FL, IL, NY, SC, DC. While SC's gun murder rate is DOUBLE that of Texas, DC's is 6 TIMES that of Texas! https://en.m.wikipedia.or...s_by_state
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Reply #101 posted 01/15/20 3:05pm

Pokeno4Money

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jjhunsecker said:

I can tell my kid something is a stupid idea or that he’s acting like an idiot. His teacher CANNOT. I can tell my wife something she said sounds really bitchy. Her boss or her waiter CANNOT. My family can say I’m behaving like a jerk. A stranger or my Uber Driver CANNOT. It’s not really that hard to grasp


Actually, you're wrong on all points.

The teacher can certainly tell your kid his idea is stupid, but in a polite manner ie: "I don't think that's a good idea because ____" and the teacher can tell your kid his "behaviour is unacceptable". Nothing wrong with either statement.

Your wife's boss or waiter can tell her she sounds irritated, same thing as "bitchy" but more professional obviously.

Ironically, the in-your-face aggressive and confrontational behaviour you describe has spread like wildfire from inner cities to the suburbs and even rural areas. People don't hesitate to insult, flip the bird, scream and curse at complete strangers these days. Especially if they are not "on the job".






There's only 6 states in the US that don't allow Open Carry: Cali, FL, IL, NY, SC, DC. While SC's gun murder rate is DOUBLE that of Texas, DC's is 6 TIMES that of Texas! https://en.m.wikipedia.or...s_by_state
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Reply #102 posted 01/15/20 3:36pm

uPtoWnNY

Pokeno4Money said:

People don't hesitate to insult, flip the bird, scream and curse at complete strangers these days. Especially if they are not "on the job".







That depends on who the stranger is. Bullies only start shit with folks who they perceive as being weak and soft.

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Reply #103 posted 01/15/20 3:36pm

jjhunsecker

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Pokeno4Money said:



jjhunsecker said:


I can tell my kid something is a stupid idea or that he’s acting like an idiot. His teacher CANNOT. I can tell my wife something she said sounds really bitchy. Her boss or her waiter CANNOT. My family can say I’m behaving like a jerk. A stranger or my Uber Driver CANNOT. It’s not really that hard to grasp


Actually, you're wrong on all points.

The teacher can certainly tell your kid his idea is stupid, but in a polite manner ie: "I don't think that's a good idea because ____" and the teacher can tell your kid his "behaviour is unacceptable". Nothing wrong with either statement.

Your wife's boss or waiter can tell her she sounds irritated, same thing as "bitchy" but more professional obviously.

Ironically, the in-your-face aggressive and confrontational behaviour you describe has spread like wildfire from inner cities to the suburbs and even rural areas. People don't hesitate to insult, flip the bird, scream and curse at complete strangers these days. Especially if they are not "on the job".








No, they CANNOT use the exact language I used because it is unacceptable from someone in their position and in that relationship. A teacher calling a kid an “idiot “ most likely would- and should- be fired . A man calling another man’s wife a “bitch” should fully expect to get punched out.

The nature and closeness of a relationship can determine what language or behavior is acceptable or not. For example, I have close friends and family members of diverse backgrounds. We make jokes all the time about each other’s races and ethnicities. But a stranger better not say it !
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Reply #104 posted 01/15/20 3:51pm

jjhunsecker

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Pokeno4Money said:



jjhunsecker said:


To clarify my point, I didn’t mean an individual putting up a statue on their own private property. I meant that if a city like Dearborn, Michigan- which has a large Arabic population- put up a statue honoring Mohammed Atta in their town square. Or a city in Minnesota or someplace with a large German community putting up a statue honoring the bravery of General Rommel. How do you think that would go over? And if you just think that comedians like Pryor and Rock and Chappelle use these words merely for “shock value “, then I can’t help you... either you get it or you don’t. I hope you have the new Disney Plus app for your TV... that type of entertainment might be more your speed


Okay well you DID say family honoring a relative. lol

Your analogy is a poor one, as only those who have actually accomplished many very positive things impacting the area where the statue is erected and actually made a very positive and significant contribution to the same community are considered for statues.

Did you know PG-13 movies are allowed to use the F-word, but only once. Think about why.



My analogy is a very good one... You simply don’t want to face the implications of what I’m saying. You would have to be- if honest- that lots of people would be outraged by such displays. Symbols MATTER... as a Black man, if I came up to a restaurant or bar, and saw that they were displaying a Confederate flag, there’s NO FUCKING WAY I’m going in that place!

And I’d be the first person to say not everything is for everybody. If someone doesn’t want to see sex or violence, steer clear of anything that contains it. And if you feel that any use of the so-called “N word”, or any ethic remarks is not your cup of tea, don’t watch “Do the Right Thing “ or “To Kill a Mockingbird “ or Chris Rock or Key and Peele. And don’t interfere in any way with ME experiencing those things
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Reply #105 posted 01/15/20 3:52pm

jjhunsecker

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uPtoWnNY said:



Pokeno4Money said:


People don't hesitate to insult, flip the bird, scream and curse at complete strangers these days. Especially if they are not "on the job".










That depends on who the stranger is. Bullies only start shit with folks who they perceive as being weak and soft.



Very true. And if you START shit, you should be prepared for something to go down
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Reply #106 posted 01/15/20 3:54pm

uPtoWnNY

jjhunsecker said:

... as a Black man, if I came up to a restaurant or bar, and saw that they were displaying a Confederate flag, there’s NO FUCKING WAY I’m going in that place!

I have no problem with a restaurant doing that....as Malcolm X said, better to know who you're dealing with.

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Reply #107 posted 01/15/20 5:31pm

OldFriends4Sal
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jjhunsecker said:

I can tell my kid something is a stupid idea or that he’s acting like an idiot. His teacher CANNOT. I can tell my wife something she said sounds really bitchy. Her boss or her waiter CANNOT. My family can say I’m behaving like a jerk. A stranger or my Uber Driver CANNOT. It’s not really that hard to grasp

Well many people would say, saying that to your child is destructive: stupid, idiot (what about shut the fuck up?)

or saying that to your wife is misogynistic or disrespectful. But wouldn't the relation with the wife and boss determine usage of the word? Bitchy, can be very different from Bitch. Bitchy is like 'catty' 'snooty' etc

And if someone(stranger) comes into my space being a jerk, I have every right to call them a jerk

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #108 posted 01/15/20 6:23pm

jjhunsecker

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OldFriends4Sale said:



jjhunsecker said:


I can tell my kid something is a stupid idea or that he’s acting like an idiot. His teacher CANNOT. I can tell my wife something she said sounds really bitchy. Her boss or her waiter CANNOT. My family can say I’m behaving like a jerk. A stranger or my Uber Driver CANNOT. It’s not really that hard to grasp


Well many people would say, saying that to your child is destructive: stupid, idiot (what about shut the fuck up?)


or saying that to your wife is misogynistic or disrespectful. But wouldn't the relation with the wife and boss determine usage of the word? Bitchy, can be very different from Bitch. Bitchy is like 'catty' 'snooty' etc



And if someone(stranger) comes into my space being a jerk, I have every right to call them a jerk





Any parent who says they never called their kids “idiots “ or anything like that is lying... or they are one of those parents who want to be “friends “ with their kids.,. You know the type- the kid is pitching a fit in public and the parent is trying to “reason” with them.

But my point is that a relationship or kinship with a person changes the dynamics of what can be said amongst each other
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Reply #109 posted 01/16/20 9:33am

sirnasstee

onlyforaminute said:

It is interesting that AAs are the only group who have taken complete control over their own racial slur. Just as interesting are those who are upset or jealous about it and seem to be putting up a fight to take it back.

How R we as AA are the only race dumb enough to embrace such a negative word that was built to degrade Us ? I 4 1 am not ignorant enough 2 embrace such a word as a "term of endearment" U would never ever catch a White person saying " Hey what is going on My KKKracker , or Wuz Good PeckkkerWood ? Good Day Ofay , What the Heck RednecKKK , yet we enbrace the N word well not me but Us as a race embrace this word like a damn badge of honor . It's Martin Luther King's birthday this month and Black History month next month but every hour is Black History month 2 me Bcuz we shouldn't even still exist considering how AmerikkkA operates regarding US , Martin Luther King , Malcolm X , Muhammad Ali, Rosa Parks , just 2 name a few did not see this as the ultimate plan to obtaining civil rights by us wanting 2 call each other the N WORD I gives a damn how U spell it or say it , its still a form of self hate if U R calling yourselves this phucked up word.

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Reply #110 posted 01/16/20 10:38am

onlyforaminute

sirnasstee said:



onlyforaminute said:



It is interesting that AAs are the only group who have taken complete control over their own racial slur. Just as interesting are those who are upset or jealous about it and seem to be putting up a fight to take it back.



How R we as AA are the only race dumb enough to embrace such a negative word that was built to degrade Us ? I 4 1 am not ignorant enough 2 embrace such a word as a "term of endearment" U would never ever catch a White person saying " Hey what is going on My KKKracker , or Wuz Good PeckkkerWood ? Good Day Ofay , What the Heck RednecKKK , yet we enbrace the N word well not me but Us as a race embrace this word like a damn badge of honor . It's Martin Luther King's birthday this month and Black History month next month but every hour is Black History month 2 me Bcuz we shouldn't even still exist considering how AmerikkkA operates regarding US , Martin Luther King , Malcolm X , Muhammad Ali, Rosa Parks , just 2 name a few did not see this as the ultimate plan to obtaining civil rights by us wanting 2 call each other the N WORD I gives a damn how U spell it or say it , its still a form of self hate if U R calling yourselves this phucked up word.




I never said ignorant, I said control. In fact I got this way of looking at it from an Asian dude, one not invested in the argument one way or the other. After really thinking about it and not shrinking away from it I got it. I see many don't and still find a lot of shame in anything black people do that's not conformative.
Life is to be lived, not controlled, and humanity is won by continuing to play in face of certain defeat.

-Ralph Ellison
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Reply #111 posted 01/16/20 10:56am

jjhunsecker

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uPtoWnNY said:



jjhunsecker said:


... as a Black man, if I came up to a restaurant or bar, and saw that they were displaying a Confederate flag, there’s NO FUCKING WAY I’m going in that place!


I have no problem with a restaurant doing that....as Malcolm X said, better to know who you're dealing with.



I have no problem either.., I just know that I’m not going in !
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Reply #112 posted 01/16/20 11:06am

jjhunsecker

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sirnasstee said:



onlyforaminute said:



It is interesting that AAs are the only group who have taken complete control over their own racial slur. Just as interesting are those who are upset or jealous about it and seem to be putting up a fight to take it back.



How R we as AA are the only race dumb enough to embrace such a negative word that was built to degrade Us ? I 4 1 am not ignorant enough 2 embrace such a word as a "term of endearment" U would never ever catch a White person saying " Hey what is going on My KKKracker , or Wuz Good PeckkkerWood ? Good Day Ofay , What the Heck RednecKKK , yet we enbrace the N word well not me but Us as a race embrace this word like a damn badge of honor . It's Martin Luther King's birthday this month and Black History month next month but every hour is Black History month 2 me Bcuz we shouldn't even still exist considering how AmerikkkA operates regarding US , Martin Luther King , Malcolm X , Muhammad Ali, Rosa Parks , just 2 name a few did not see this as the ultimate plan to obtaining civil rights by us wanting 2 call each other the N WORD I gives a damn how U spell it or say it , its still a form of self hate if U R calling yourselves this phucked up word.



I went to High School and College with mainly Italian and Jewish kids. The Italian guys were constantly calling each other “g****a” and “w*p”. The Jewish guys were often joking about how cheap the other ones were. Now perhaps this type of behavior is more common in NY or on the East Coast, where people often find humor in insulting their friends and family. But in my experience it’s not something unique to Black people
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Reply #113 posted 01/16/20 11:25am

onlyforaminute

jjhunsecker said:

sirnasstee said:



onlyforaminute said:



It is interesting that AAs are the only group who have taken complete control over their own racial slur. Just as interesting are those who are upset or jealous about it and seem to be putting up a fight to take it back.



How R we as AA are the only race dumb enough to embrace such a negative word that was built to degrade Us ? I 4 1 am not ignorant enough 2 embrace such a word as a "term of endearment" U would never ever catch a White person saying " Hey what is going on My KKKracker , or Wuz Good PeckkkerWood ? Good Day Ofay , What the Heck RednecKKK , yet we enbrace the N word well not me but Us as a race embrace this word like a damn badge of honor . It's Martin Luther King's birthday this month and Black History month next month but every hour is Black History month 2 me Bcuz we shouldn't even still exist considering how AmerikkkA operates regarding US , Martin Luther King , Malcolm X , Muhammad Ali, Rosa Parks , just 2 name a few did not see this as the ultimate plan to obtaining civil rights by us wanting 2 call each other the N WORD I gives a damn how U spell it or say it , its still a form of self hate if U R calling yourselves this phucked up word.



I went to High School and College with mainly Italian and Jewish kids. The Italian guys were constantly calling each other “g****a” and “w*p”. The Jewish guys were often joking about how cheap the other ones were. Now perhaps this type of behavior is more common in NY or on the East Coast, where people often find humor in insulting their friends and family. But in my experience it’s not something unique to Black people



Well in truth the same thing happens with the b word, the g word and the euro c word. But the n word has become international and basically lost, some not all, it's original impact. It's still a curse word, cursing is still aggressive but in a generation or 2 will it have a drfined meaning anymore? That's controlling a narrative.
[Edited 1/16/20 11:29am]
Life is to be lived, not controlled, and humanity is won by continuing to play in face of certain defeat.

-Ralph Ellison
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Reply #114 posted 01/17/20 4:38pm

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

I went to High School and College with mainly Italian and Jewish kids. The Italian guys were constantly calling each other “g****a” and “w*p”. The Jewish guys were often joking about how cheap the other ones were. Now perhaps this type of behavior is more common in NY or on the East Coast, where people often find humor in insulting their friends and family. But in my experience it’s not something unique to Black people


No , it is not. And unless there's another reason, I'm surprised people can't grasp the simple concept. Gallows humor is beloved, and not just by Irish. Other people besides Latinos can understand the humor of giving a skinny person the nickname gordo. Jeff Foxworthy made his bones on redneck jokes - for rednecks.

Don't think a lot of people actually talk to other people that much anymore - or listen to dialogue. You can't get real from a phone. Media is all packaged to sell, one way or another.

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Reply #115 posted 01/17/20 5:24pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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jjhunsecker said:

I can tell my kid something is a stupid idea or that he’s acting like an idiot. His teacher CANNOT. I can tell my wife something she said sounds really bitchy. Her boss or her waiter CANNOT. My family can say I’m behaving like a jerk. A stranger or my Uber Driver CANNOT. It’s not really that hard to grasp

you are wrong... the rules are the same... you are making a fundmental error here. It is okay I am not shocked.

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #116 posted 01/17/20 6:11pm

OldFriends4Sal
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Look, JJ if you lik the N word, love it.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #117 posted 01/17/20 9:08pm

IanRG

I wa just watching the video for Grace Jones' Slave to the Rhythm. This includes blackface (as well as yellow and whiteface).

.

I doubt this would be released today like this - even for artistic effect.

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Reply #118 posted 01/18/20 6:56am

EmmaMcG

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poppys said:



jjhunsecker said:


I went to High School and College with mainly Italian and Jewish kids. The Italian guys were constantly calling each other “g****a” and “w*p”. The Jewish guys were often joking about how cheap the other ones were. Now perhaps this type of behavior is more common in NY or on the East Coast, where people often find humor in insulting their friends and family. But in my experience it’s not something unique to Black people



No , it is not. And unless there's another reason, I'm surprised people can't grasp the simple concept. Gallows humor is beloved, and not just by Irish. Other people besides Latinos can understand the humor of giving a skinny person the nickname gordo. Jeff Foxworthy made his bones on redneck jokes - for rednecks.

Don't think a lot of people actually talk to other people that much anymore - or listen to dialogue. You can't get real from a phone. Media is all packaged to sell, one way or another.



The Irish sure do love a bit of gallows humour. This is a country where the "C" word is used as a term of endearment much more often than as an insult. In fact, there's a lot of strange phrases that are used in Ireland, especially in Dublin, that a lot of foreigners to these shores are taken aback by. The aforementioned "C" word being used so often that it's become part of everyday conversation, the word "whore" (pronounced as "who-er) being used to describe someone who has cheated or been cheeky, or perhaps my favourite, when I was a little girl and I had been misbehaving, my mother would hit me with "Go away out of that now, ye little Arab". An Arab, mind you. Makes no sense whatsoever. But she, and a lot of other parents, said it.

And it's not just the Irish sticking it to other Irish people that's deemed acceptable. You'll find that most Irish people enjoy a bit of banter with foreigners. Unless they're English 😂
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Reply #119 posted 01/18/20 7:08am

djThunderfunk

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In my experience, 99% of the time I've heard the "n-word" it has not been directly from the mouth of someone in my vicinity, but rather, from a speaker.... music, a movie, tv, etc...

And in music, movies, tv, etc..., 99% of the time it is a black person using the word. And when it is a white person, with very few exceptions, that person is the villain who usually get there's in the end.

I'm white and I've lived most of my life in Kentucky, and in the 5 decades I've been on earth, this has been the case.
I'm not saying I've never heard a white person use the word as a slur, I have of course.
What I'm saying is that it is extremely rare and therefore always shocking.
It's been over 5 years since I last heard a white person use word, and that was from an old man who's dead now.

In fact, it's super rare that I hear a white person use the word even in CONTEXT, as doing so is risky since many people have trouble understanding the concept of context.
In fact, MANY white people seem uncomfortable using the phrase "n-word", as if using the replacement, in context, was still bad.

So while I realize there are racist mother fuckers who use the word as a slur because they hate, I don't see those assholes as the ones keeping the word in the vocabulary. I believe if black people stopped using it, the word would go away.

But I'm white, so, what do I know? Maybe my observations and opinions are racist somehow....

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