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Reply #60 posted 09/06/19 4:54am

BombSquad

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wow, props to that guy for confronting Boris


https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1169872053890977794?s=12&fbclid=IwAR2K6hF3Z6wCOAeEZNC0cxo2ClbbU5EjWYizpMHiXk0OvZMHGP7EHk87CA4

this is pure gold "You should be in Brussles negotiating. You are in Morley!" LOL

Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
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Reply #61 posted 09/06/19 7:14am

maplenpg

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BombSquad said:

wow, props to that guy for confronting Boris


https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1169872053890977794?s=12&fbclid=IwAR2K6hF3Z6wCOAeEZNC0cxo2ClbbU5EjWYizpMHiXk0OvZMHGP7EHk87CA4

this is pure gold "You should be in Brussles negotiating. You are in Morley!" LOL

We say what we think up North lol

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #62 posted 09/06/19 7:19am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

Is there something in the water.?
It's still eerie to me how both the US and the UK got a pair of matching hair goofs for leaders.
i don't know what to think.

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Reply #63 posted 09/06/19 7:23am

poppys

BombSquad said:

wow, props to that guy for confronting Boris


https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1169872053890977794?s=12&fbclid=IwAR2K6hF3Z6wCOAeEZNC0cxo2ClbbU5EjWYizpMHiXk0OvZMHGP7EHk87CA4

this is pure gold "You should be in Brussles negotiating. You are in Morley!" LOL


Gotta love a guy with an actual point who's not afraid to confront. Boris was pivoting the entire time trying to get away - had that wild cornered rat look in his eyes.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #64 posted 09/06/19 4:04pm

SquirrelMeat

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maplenpg said:

SquirrelMeat said:



There are many different reasons the UK voted to leave, and some themes depend on geographic impact, but immgration and the impact on infrustructure and services sustainablity is generally high up the list.

England, where the leave vote was higher, receives 93% of UK immigration, and has been averaging an intake the size of Leicester City every year for the past decade.

To put that scale into a USA context, England has a bigger population that California, Oregon and Washington states combined, but squeezed onto a land mass smaller than Louisiana. Now imagine adding an annual immigration volume the Size of New Orleans every year for 10 years.

The impact on services and social fabric in some areas is very severe and you can begin to understand why many people want tighter controls.



To be fair Squirrel, much of the North voted to leave and we don't have any problem with immigrants. If anything we'd love people to move up here, start industries, build up the dying towns. The only immigrants we have are Polish farm workers. I'm not sure where your figures are from, but Northern Engand is certainly not being squeezed by immigration in any sense.



Like I said, it's geographic. Depending on what you call North (as my Geordie mates says, 'The North starts at York lol), there is still an impact. Lincolnshire is the prime example; the highest ratio of leave voters, but some of the the least populated land.

On the social cohesion side, there is a bigger impact in the likes of Rotherham.

The squeeze isn't land, its services, and the cohesion isn't change, its speed of change.

.
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Reply #65 posted 09/06/19 4:16pm

SquirrelMeat

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deebee said:

guitarslinger44 said:



eek Wow that sounds really really intense

It's also true that we live on just 6% of the land, and that half of England's land is owned by just 1% of its population, so I'd be wary when the situation is framed in quasi-Malthusian terms as being simply one of population vs resources. Nonetheless, one can see how, with the occlusion of the political and economic factors at work in ensuring/limiting certain people's access to needed resources, and in the absence of political solutions that involve addressing their maldistribution and undersupply, people lower down the ladder can come to believe that duking it out with the neighbours for a sufficient share of the fraction of the pie that's been made available to them is a rational move - egged on by friendly compatriots on higher rungs.


That's true, but those numbers can give the wrong impression as the land owners are predominantly farmers, yet the UK is not self sufficient with food resources, due the the volume requirements of the population and the lack of qaulity arable land.

6% urbanised sounds small, but if you doubled it 12%, the population could grow 100% but food resources would drop.

.
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Reply #66 posted 09/07/19 12:25am

maplenpg

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SquirrelMeat said:

maplenpg said:

To be fair Squirrel, much of the North voted to leave and we don't have any problem with immigrants. If anything we'd love people to move up here, start industries, build up the dying towns. The only immigrants we have are Polish farm workers. I'm not sure where your figures are from, but Northern Engand is certainly not being squeezed by immigration in any sense.



Like I said, it's geographic. Depending on what you call North (as my Geordie mates says, 'The North starts at York lol), there is still an impact. Lincolnshire is the prime example; the highest ratio of leave voters, but some of the the least populated land.

On the social cohesion side, there is a bigger impact in the likes of Rotherham.

The squeeze isn't land, its services, and the cohesion isn't change, its speed of change.

The squeeze on services, certainly up North around me (I'm further North than York lol), has absolutely nothing to do with immigration. To be blunt, since 2010, we've lost our school, our children's centre, and our hospital (that was the biggie). The only blame for losing these services was 'austerity' (substitute for Tories), yet we know we'll never get them back, even now austerity is allegedly over.

I would love a shop I could walk to, a local pub, a local school, a local takeaway, hell can I push the boat out and say I'd like a coffee shop that I could walk to, but there is no investment, only closures round here. People voted Brexit up here as a two finger salute to the Tories, not because of immigration.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #67 posted 09/07/19 6:18am

deebee

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SquirrelMeat said:

deebee said:

It's also true that we live on just 6% of the land, and that half of England's land is owned by just 1% of its population, so I'd be wary when the situation is framed in quasi-Malthusian terms as being simply one of population vs resources. Nonetheless, one can see how, with the occlusion of the political and economic factors at work in ensuring/limiting certain people's access to needed resources, and in the absence of political solutions that involve addressing their maldistribution and undersupply, people lower down the ladder can come to believe that duking it out with the neighbours for a sufficient share of the fraction of the pie that's been made available to them is a rational move - egged on by friendly compatriots on higher rungs.


That's true, but those numbers can give the wrong impression as the land owners are predominantly farmers, yet the UK is not self sufficient with food resources, due the the volume requirements of the population and the lack of qaulity arable land.

6% urbanised sounds small, but if you doubled it 12%, the population could grow 100% but food resources would drop.

Yes, but it shouldn't be read as a canny new proposal to tarmac over the green belt. But what I think it does correctly hint at is that, in framing the situation as a shortage of green and pleasant land relative to the number of people living off it, we entirely miss the matter of the economic and political factors that largely govern the overall supply of resources and how people acquire or access them as needed. And I'm noting that even this most straightforward and 'natural' resource, the ground beneath our feet, is largely governed by such factors - before one even gets to resource issues like funding for public services or the level of housing stock.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #68 posted 09/07/19 6:27am

2freaky4church
1

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Imagine if we got rid of our central bank and acted like a regular country. We would be fucked.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #69 posted 09/09/19 7:42am

maplenpg

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Law blocking no deal Brexit passed. Tories to "test the law to it's limits". Parliament suspended until mid-October. Wow, Boris better be working his socks off for a deal by the time they meet again.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #70 posted 09/09/19 11:18am

maplenpg

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And now Bercow has resigned. He'll go Oct 31st.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #71 posted 09/09/19 11:36am

poppys

maplenpg said:

And now Bercow has resigned. He'll go Oct 31st.


Wow, the loss of a true character.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #72 posted 09/11/19 7:12am

maplenpg

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poppys said:

maplenpg said:

And now Bercow has resigned. He'll go Oct 31st.


Wow, the loss of a true character.

He's a character alright. Seems he jumped before he was pushed. Much as I liked what he stood for, I always thought he seemed a pompous twat.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #73 posted 09/11/19 7:13am

maplenpg

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And just when we thought it had all gone quiet for a few weeks, the suspension of parliament has been deemed illegal. Supreme court next week. Could it be bye bye Boris already (one can dream)?

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #74 posted 09/11/19 7:29am

BombSquad

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^^

it's quite hard to be an even bigger fuckup than May. but Boris is certainly on his way to do achieve just that LOL



a bit of a Bush/Trump scenario

Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
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Reply #75 posted 09/11/19 8:00am

maplenpg

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BombSquad said:

^^

it's quite hard to be an even bigger fuckup than May. but Boris is certainly on his way to do achieve just that LOL



a bit of a Bush/Trump scenario

Yup......Serves him right. He deserves everything he gets.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #76 posted 09/13/19 2:44am

BombSquad

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"If I have been remotely ambiguous so far, let me make myself crystal clear. The only form of Brexit that we have, whenever that might be, will be a Brexit that the House of Commons has explicitly endorsed."

Ha! gotta love Bercow


https://www.theguardian.c...eal-brexit

Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
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Reply #77 posted 09/17/19 3:49pm

SquirrelMeat

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poppys said:



maplenpg said:


And now Bercow has resigned. He'll go Oct 31st.




Wow, the loss of a true character.



He's a character, but he's not been doing his job properly. He's supposed to be impartial and he's not even hiding that he isn't.

But worse is his bullying record. If you read the clerk dispositions, he should have gone 2 years ago. Terrible behaviour.
.
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Reply #78 posted 09/19/19 8:50am

DaveT

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I can see how a lot of people have stopped following or don't understand Brexit. I'm in the UK with my ear to the political vibe and even I'm not following some of it.

I don't think its helped that quite a bit of the coverage has been overrun with buzzwords and phrases that your average Joe doesn't understand ... back stop, hard Brexit, Article 50. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly how some political figures wanted it though, blind the average person in the street with science and you can start getting away with a lot more nefarious doing.

Standing back and looking at the whole debacle though, its just sad that a supposedly well mannered and reasonable country has become so mired by a vote that boiled down to "I don't want foreigners coming over here and getting their hands on my stuff".

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Reply #79 posted 09/19/19 12:40pm

13cjk13

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DaveT said:

I can see how a lot of people have stopped following or don't understand Brexit. I'm in the UK with my ear to the political vibe and even I'm not following some of it.

I don't think its helped that quite a bit of the coverage has been overrun with buzzwords and phrases that your average Joe doesn't understand ... back stop, hard Brexit, Article 50. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly how some political figures wanted it though, blind the average person in the street with science and you can start getting away with a lot more nefarious doing.

Standing back and looking at the whole debacle though, its just sad that a supposedly well mannered and reasonable country has become so mired by a vote that boiled down to "I don't want foreigners coming over here and getting their hands on my stuff".

Yep, every generation the fear of the "other" rears it's ugly head and the poor little scared racists go apeshit. People never learn from the past.

"hey if you found out someone gave you a fake $20 would you be mad?"
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Reply #80 posted 09/19/19 2:41pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

what have the numbers shown on the economic benefits to the UK from the brexit?

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Reply #81 posted 09/19/19 4:35pm

SquirrelMeat

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

what have the numbers shown on the economic benefits to the UK from the brexit?



It's impossible to quantify. It's an unknown and Brexit hasn't happened.

Firstly, all the economic forecasts to date have proved wrong. The UK ecomomy has proved to be remarkably robust.

Secondly, all forecasts predict a drop, then bounce, but that adjustment period is anything between 5 and 50 years, depending on which one you believe.

Thirdly, you can't forecast if you don't known what future government policy will be. A US trade focus will lead one way, a freeport economy another, and alignment with the EU another.

Economics can't solve this one, as there is nothing to model it against, and a lot of Leave voters didn't vote for economic reasons.

.
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Reply #82 posted 09/19/19 6:03pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

SquirrelMeat said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

what have the numbers shown on the economic benefits to the UK from the brexit?



It's impossible to quantify. It's an unknown and Brexit hasn't happened.

Firstly, all the economic forecasts to date have proved wrong. The UK ecomomy has proved to be remarkably robust.

Secondly, all forecasts predict a drop, then bounce, but that adjustment period is anything between 5 and 50 years, depending on which one you believe.

Thirdly, you can't forecast if you don't known what future government policy will be. A US trade focus will lead one way, a freeport economy another, and alignment with the EU another.

Economics can't solve this one, as there is nothing to model it against, and a lot of Leave voters didn't vote for economic reasons.


What are the forecasts from the proponents saying? Are the reasons for the brexit a lot than economic or is that the bulk of it.
i mean obviously there must have been great economic forecasts for this to to have been considered

[Edited 9/19/19 18:16pm]

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Reply #83 posted 09/20/19 2:31am

DaveT

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

what have the numbers shown on the economic benefits to the UK from the brexit?


Pretty much impossible to accurately predict.

The majority of people who voted, I suspect all they based it on was a sound bite or two about how Britain would be better off out of the EU ... that and our current Prime Minister standing in front of a campaign bus with an outright lie plastered down the side ("leave the EU and we'll have an extra £350million a week for the NHS") ... because when has a politician ever lied, right?

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Reply #84 posted 09/20/19 2:33am

DaveT

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

SquirrelMeat said:



It's impossible to quantify. It's an unknown and Brexit hasn't happened.

Firstly, all the economic forecasts to date have proved wrong. The UK ecomomy has proved to be remarkably robust.

Secondly, all forecasts predict a drop, then bounce, but that adjustment period is anything between 5 and 50 years, depending on which one you believe.

Thirdly, you can't forecast if you don't known what future government policy will be. A US trade focus will lead one way, a freeport economy another, and alignment with the EU another.

Economics can't solve this one, as there is nothing to model it against, and a lot of Leave voters didn't vote for economic reasons.


What are the forecasts from the proponents saying? Are the reasons for the brexit a lot than economic or is that the bulk of it.
i mean obviously there must have been great economic forecasts for this to to have been considered

[Edited 9/19/19 18:16pm]

The reason for Brexit was 90% immigration ... there was some other waffle about not being controlled by Brussels anymore (ie. the EU), but pretty much no one knew what that actually meant in real terms.

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Reply #85 posted 09/20/19 6:09am

maplenpg

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DaveT said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:


What are the forecasts from the proponents saying? Are the reasons for the brexit a lot than economic or is that the bulk of it.
i mean obviously there must have been great economic forecasts for this to to have been considered

[Edited 9/19/19 18:16pm]

The reason for Brexit was 90% immigration ... there was some other waffle about not being controlled by Brussels anymore (ie. the EU), but pretty much no one knew what that actually meant in real terms.

I don't agree with this. Certainly where I live (North East) we are not affected by immigration, yet votes for Brexit were much higher than votes against it. I like the chart Deebee posted in repy #58. Mostly I think the timing of it was awful, and that produced a cauldron of Brexit voters voting for a whole raft of reasons (many as just a big FU to the Tories).

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #86 posted 09/20/19 6:11am

maplenpg

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DaveT said:

I can see how a lot of people have stopped following or don't understand Brexit. I'm in the UK with my ear to the political vibe and even I'm not following some of it.

I don't think its helped that quite a bit of the coverage has been overrun with buzzwords and phrases that your average Joe doesn't understand ... back stop, hard Brexit, Article 50. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly how some political figures wanted it though, blind the average person in the street with science and you can start getting away with a lot more nefarious doing.

Standing back and looking at the whole debacle though, its just sad that a supposedly well mannered and reasonable country has become so mired by a vote that boiled down to "I don't want foreigners coming over here and getting their hands on my stuff".

I wish you'd just stopped your sentence at vote. I would have agreed with you then.

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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Reply #87 posted 09/26/19 3:37pm

SquirrelMeat

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DaveT said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

what have the numbers shown on the economic benefits to the UK from the brexit?


Pretty much impossible to accurately predict.

The majority of people who voted, I suspect all they based it on was a sound bite or two about how Britain would be better off out of the EU ... that and our current Prime Minister standing in front of a campaign bus with an outright lie plastered down the side ("leave the EU and we'll have an extra £350million a week for the NHS") ... because when has a politician ever lied, right?



The reality is the campaign made no difference. I know remainers like to blame Arron Banks or the red bus, but the fact is, before any of that, even the Guardian, the bastion of remain was reporting that leave was likely to win. Look at their poll nearly 18 months prior.

https://www.theguardian.c...ve-eu-poll

It's been building since 1992, when we were taken into a political union without a public say, followed by 3 Prime Minister promising a referendum then renaging.

Major, Blair and Brown fed Brexit, by constantly denying the public say and letting the opposition build up.


.
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Reply #88 posted 09/27/19 6:53am

VaultCurator

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

Can someone from the UK explain Brexit in a way even I can understand.

.
It's pretty much this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGL-XJPuCuo

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Reply #89 posted 09/27/19 7:04am

maplenpg

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VaultCurator said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

Can someone from the UK explain Brexit in a way even I can understand.

.
It's pretty much this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGL-XJPuCuo

falloff

The second and third wave of the Spanish flu were far worse than the first wave.
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