independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Mon 16th Sep 2019 2:18pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > Can someone from the UK explain Brexit in a way even I can understand.
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 3 123>
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 09/03/19 8:18pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

Can someone from the UK explain Brexit in a way even I can understand.

I read the headlines, but my eyes gloss over.

.

Since it doesn't directly impact me, it kinda turns into white noise.

.
I'd like to hear from some of you orgers there on how it would personally affect your own daily lives, from your own particular perspective, and what your opinion on what people there think.

.

Good, bad, no opinion?

.

Share your thoughts!

[Edited 9/3/19 20:21pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 09/03/19 11:55pm

BombSquad

avatar




former Prime minister May was to weak to pull this off, now they replaced her with a fat worthless fuck and amateur "politician" with bad hair and no manners constantly telling lies to the public (hmmm... sounds familiar....) who knows jack shit, was not elected by the public, but tried to overrun the elected parliament in an attempt a to overhtrow democracy, and push trough his idiot no-deal-brexit "plan". yesterday fat fuck got his reality check




Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 09/03/19 11:59pm

BombSquad

avatar

Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 09/04/19 2:58am

maplenpg

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

I read the headlines, but my eyes gloss over.

.

Since it doesn't directly impact me, it kinda turns into white noise.

.
I'd like to hear from some of you orgers there on how it would personally affect your own daily lives, from your own particular perspective, and what your opinion on what people there think.

.

Good, bad, no opinion?

.

Share your thoughts!

[Edited 9/3/19 20:21pm]

All I know is that it seems nobody knows what's happening, even the politicians. It's all speculation. We badly need a General Election.

I doubt Brexit will affect me personally, deal or not. However four more years of Tory leadership will have a much bigger impact (negatively) on my life. BoJo needs to go.

If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 09/04/19 7:29am

poppys

BombSquad said:




former Prime minister May was to weak to pull this off, now they replaced her with a fat worthless fuck and amateur "politician" with bad hair and no manners constantly telling lies to the public (hmmm... sounds familiar....) who knows jack shit, was not elected by the public, but tried to overrun the elected parliament in an attempt a to overhtrow democracy, and push trough his idiot no-deal-brexit "plan". yesterday fat fuck got his reality check





Haha, love this. But technically popcorn is a grain. Then there's this - many grains including popcorn are considered to be a fruit.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 09/04/19 7:34am

poppys

BombSquad said:


Y0HqhP8.jpg


giphy.gif

[Edited 9/4/19 7:35am]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 09/04/19 8:24am

jaawwnn

avatar

BombSquad said:




former Prime minister May was to weak to pull this off, now they replaced her with a fat worthless fuck and amateur "politician" with bad hair and no manners constantly telling lies to the public (hmmm... sounds familiar....) who knows jack shit, was not elected by the public, but tried to overrun the elected parliament in an attempt a to overhtrow democracy, and push trough his idiot no-deal-brexit "plan". yesterday fat fuck got his reality check




There ain't no popcorn in the Republic of Ireland, Brexit is going to do a world of damage to us and we can't do anything about it.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 09/04/19 8:25am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

Is there any kind of consensus among your friends as to what the average citizen thinks about all this?
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 09/04/19 9:14am

maplenpg

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

Is there any kind of consensus among your friends as to what the average citizen thinks about all this?

Nope. Brexit divides the UK just as much as Trump divides America.

If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 09/04/19 9:30am

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

I've heard compelling arguments for and against Brexit, some from English themselves.

One argument For was that because England is one of the most powerful economies in the EU, it gives them more bargaining power to be their own voice rather than another voice in a room of many. They're about the only country that really has that kind of power in the EU outside of France and Germany.

But it's going to mess things up for a lot of people.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 09/04/19 9:42am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

My original understanding of it was that it was in response to Turkey and other EU economies struggling with their economies and fear that it may have a domino effect. And of having control of their own currency
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 09/04/19 9:55am

maplenpg

avatar

guitarslinger44 said:

I've heard compelling arguments for and against Brexit, some from English themselves. One argument For was that because England is one of the most powerful economies in the EU, it gives them more bargaining power to be their own voice rather than another voice in a room of many. They're about the only country that really has that kind of power in the EU outside of France and Germany. But it's going to mess things up for a lot of people.

There were/are many compelling arguments on both sides. That's why so many people were unsure how to vote in the first place. Whatever happens there will be winners and losers that's for sure.


If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 09/04/19 9:57am

jaawwnn

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

My original understanding of it was that it was in response to Turkey and other EU economies struggling with their economies and fear that it may have a domino effect. And of having control of their own currency

My understanding is that it only happened because ex-UK PM David Cameron promised an in-out referendum as a bargaining chip with the Eurosceptic members of his party, with the strong belief that it would never actually pass.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 09/04/19 10:07am

maplenpg

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

My original understanding of it was that it was in response to Turkey and other EU economies struggling with their economies and fear that it may have a domino effect. And of having control of their own currency

It was one of many factors. Cameron offered the referendum as a way to win a general election (it worked), thinking the vote to stay would easily win. He did this right whilst we were in the middle of austerity, when people saw public services being cut and cut again, yet billions going to the EU. Plus many saw the EU as a corrupt organisation. The lack of action from the EU regarding the migrant crisis and treatment of Greece were other factors too, as was immigration. It might be interesting to find some of the threads on here from that time.


If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 09/04/19 10:09am

maplenpg

avatar

jaawwnn said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

My original understanding of it was that it was in response to Turkey and other EU economies struggling with their economies and fear that it may have a domino effect. And of having control of their own currency

My understanding is that it only happened because ex-UK PM David Cameron promised an in-out referendum as a bargaining chip with the Eurosceptic members of his party, with the strong belief that it would never actually pass.

Yup.

If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 09/04/19 10:11am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

maplenpg said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


My original understanding of it was that it was in response to Turkey and other EU economies struggling with their economies and fear that it may have a domino effect. And of having control of their own currency

It was one of many factors. Cameron offered the referendum as a way to win a general election (it worked), thinking the vote to stay would easily win. He did this right whilst we were in the middle of austerity, when people saw public services being cut and cut again, yet billions going to the EU. Plus many saw the EU as a corrupt organisation. The lack of action from the EU regarding the migrant crisis and treatment of Greece were other factors too, as was immigration. It might be interesting to find some of the threads on here from that time.




Interesting how immigration has been part of the global turn to more right wing politicians or policies. I thought I read the UK version of Trump said something racist about Muslims recently.
[Edited 9/4/19 10:37am]
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 09/04/19 10:56am

maplenpg

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

maplenpg said:

It was one of many factors. Cameron offered the referendum as a way to win a general election (it worked), thinking the vote to stay would easily win. He did this right whilst we were in the middle of austerity, when people saw public services being cut and cut again, yet billions going to the EU. Plus many saw the EU as a corrupt organisation. The lack of action from the EU regarding the migrant crisis and treatment of Greece were other factors too, as was immigration. It might be interesting to find some of the threads on here from that time.


Interesting how immigration has been part of the global turn to more right wing politicians or policies. I thought I read the UK version of Trump said something racist about Muslims recently. [Edited 9/4/19 10:37am]

Immigration was deemed to be one of the main factors in the Brexit vote. On a personal note (and as someone who voted for Brexit) I have direct family from Thailand who have had major problems coming to this country. I am all for immigration, but I think it needs to be fair, and not simply based on what country you happen to be born in.

If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 09/04/19 12:58pm

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

maplenpg said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


My original understanding of it was that it was in response to Turkey and other EU economies struggling with their economies and fear that it may have a domino effect. And of having control of their own currency

It was one of many factors. Cameron offered the referendum as a way to win a general election (it worked), thinking the vote to stay would easily win. He did this right whilst we were in the middle of austerity, when people saw public services being cut and cut again, yet billions going to the EU. Plus many saw the EU as a corrupt organisation. The lack of action from the EU regarding the migrant crisis and treatment of Greece were other factors too, as was immigration. It might be interesting to find some of the threads on here from that time.




Interesting how immigration has been part of the global turn to more right wing politicians or policies. I thought I read the UK version of Trump said something racist about Muslims recently.
[Edited 9/4/19 10:37am]


I think you just have a lot of people who are not doing well financially or job wise who are undereducated, but know enough to know that a lot of these immigrants are going to displace them from jobs. Being in that the left wing politicians are usually the ones who advocate bringing in more immigrants, they end up being the targets of scorn.
[Edited 9/4/19 12:58pm]
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 09/04/19 1:16pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

guitarslinger44 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:
Interesting how immigration has been part of the global turn to more right wing politicians or policies. I thought I read the UK version of Trump said something racist about Muslims recently. [Edited 9/4/19 10:37am]
I think you just have a lot of people who are not doing well financially or job wise who are undereducated, but know enough to know that a lot of these immigrants are going to displace them from jobs. Being in that the left wing politicians are usually the ones who advocate bringing in more immigrants, they end up being the targets of scorn. [Edited 9/4/19 12:58pm]

The question I ask, is though, as in America, in the UK are the immigrants doing jobs that most native English people won't or didn't want to do ? And, if like in the US, are most of the people actually HIRING these immigrants- the business owners- actually right-wingers themselves.

I'd be curious to hear from someone from that part of the world what the real deal actually is.

[Edited 9/4/19 13:17pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 09/04/19 1:44pm

maplenpg

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said: I think you just have a lot of people who are not doing well financially or job wise who are undereducated, but know enough to know that a lot of these immigrants are going to displace them from jobs. Being in that the left wing politicians are usually the ones who advocate bringing in more immigrants, they end up being the targets of scorn. [Edited 9/4/19 12:58pm]

The question I ask, is though, as in America, in the UK are the immigrants doing jobs that most native English people won't or didn't want to do ? And, if like in the US, are most of the people actually HIRING these immigrants- the business owners- actually right-wingers themselves.

I'd be curious to hear from someone from that part of the world what the real deal actually is.

[Edited 9/4/19 13:17pm]

It's exactly as you say.

If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 09/04/19 2:30pm

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


Ugot2shakesumthin said:
Interesting how immigration has been part of the global turn to more right wing politicians or policies. I thought I read the UK version of Trump said something racist about Muslims recently. [Edited 9/4/19 10:37am]

I think you just have a lot of people who are not doing well financially or job wise who are undereducated, but know enough to know that a lot of these immigrants are going to displace them from jobs. Being in that the left wing politicians are usually the ones who advocate bringing in more immigrants, they end up being the targets of scorn. [Edited 9/4/19 12:58pm]


The question I ask, is though, as in America, in the UK are the immigrants doing jobs that most native English people won't or didn't want to do ? And, if like in the US, are most of the people actually HIRING these immigrants- the business owners- actually right-wingers themselves.



I'd be curious to hear from someone from that part of the world what the real deal actually is.

[Edited 9/4/19 13:17pm]



We've talked about this before, but I think there are a lot of employers who know there will be immigrants or migrant workers' they can pay extremely low wages to that they couldn't get away with that if they were hiring citizens.

I'd agree with you that a lot of the business owners are probably right wing but they're also business owners and their desire to be able to eke out more profit likely trumps their ideology. Besides, it usually seems like its lower skill/lower wage earning folks or the politicians who rely on them to get elected that are generally the most fervently anti-immigration.

[Edited 9/4/19 14:31pm]
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 09/04/19 2:49pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



guitarslinger44 said:


Ugot2shakesumthin said:
Interesting how immigration has been part of the global turn to more right wing politicians or policies. I thought I read the UK version of Trump said something racist about Muslims recently. [Edited 9/4/19 10:37am]

I think you just have a lot of people who are not doing well financially or job wise who are undereducated, but know enough to know that a lot of these immigrants are going to displace them from jobs. Being in that the left wing politicians are usually the ones who advocate bringing in more immigrants, they end up being the targets of scorn. [Edited 9/4/19 12:58pm]


The question I ask, is though, as in America, in the UK are the immigrants doing jobs that most native English people won't or didn't want to do ? And, if like in the US, are most of the people actually HIRING these immigrants- the business owners- actually right-wingers themselves.



I'd be curious to hear from someone from that part of the world what the real deal actually is.

[Edited 9/4/19 13:17pm]



We've talked about this before, but I think there are a lot of employers who know there will be immigrants or migrant workers' they can pay extremely low wages to that they couldn't get away with that if they were hiring citizens.

I'd agree with you that a lot of the business owners are probably right wing but they're also business owners and their desire to be able to eke out more profit likely trumps their ideology. Besides, it usually seems like its lower skill/lower wage earning folks or the politicians who rely on them to get elected that are generally the most fervently anti-immigration.

[Edited 9/4/19 14:31pm]


See, I totally agree with your first paragraph. It just seems that so many focus their attention and anger and even hatred on the immigrants, and almost none on the exploitive employers of these folks.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 09/04/19 6:31pm

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:



We've talked about this before, but I think there are a lot of employers who know there will be immigrants or migrant workers' they can pay extremely low wages to that they couldn't get away with that if they were hiring citizens.

I'd agree with you that a lot of the business owners are probably right wing but they're also business owners and their desire to be able to eke out more profit likely trumps their ideology. Besides, it usually seems like its lower skill/lower wage earning folks or the politicians who rely on them to get elected that are generally the most fervently anti-immigration.

[Edited 9/4/19 14:31pm]


See, I totally agree with your first paragraph. It just seems that so many focus their attention and anger and even hatred on the immigrants, and almost none on the exploitive employers of these folks.


Because the way they see it (and they may or may not be wrong) those immigrants will essentially replace them in the workforce.

Chances are now those immigrants are going to be their competition for jobs just like recently freed slaves were for poor whites after the Civil war. Those immigrants aren't taking tech jobs, secretarial jobs, customer service jobs, they're taking kitchen jobs, farm work, construction, etc and doing so likely for much less than an employer would pay a citizen to work the same job. That, and because the immigrants are just happy to have something, they're probably going to be better workers.

So a lot of unskilled citizen labor is likely being priced out of the market by immigrants even as it's shrinking in general. It even happens here in the STEM fields with Indian and Chinese folks coming over on H1B (I think that's it) visas. They're willing to bust ass and do it for a lot less so they take jobs Americans can't really compete for because budgets are what they are. It's not even the immigrants' fault, but the "Profits>All" will kill the labor market at these levels.

So when some do gooder politician says, "hey let's bring in more immigrants" he's not thinking about it in terms of what that means for certain strata of society. The people who get displaced are probably thinking "why does he want to help these people who just got here or who aren't even citizens, but not me?"

Middle class and wealthy people don't feel the same about immigrants because they don't often ever have to worry about their jobs being taken, and even if they are, if they have skills or connections, they can always get another job.

Yes, employers are to blame for it too, but they're only a part of the problem, they're just taking advantage of the situation more than anything else.

So saying that anti immigrant sentiment is racistm/xenophobia/whatever isn't wrong, but I'd hedge bets that for a lot people, that racism is a cover for the fear they feel at the prospect of not being able to work or pay bills because someone at the top of the food chain decided that's how it was going to be.




Anyway, not trying to Bogart the thread, back to BREXIT.

[Edited 9/4/19 18:40pm]
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 09/04/19 6:50pm

jjhunsecker

avatar

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:



See, I totally agree with your first paragraph. It just seems that so many focus their attention and anger and even hatred on the immigrants, and almost none on the exploitive employers of these folks.


Because the way they see it (and they may or may not be wrong) those immigrants will essentially replace them in the workforce.

Chances are now those immigrants are going to be their competition for jobs just like recently freed slaves were for poor whites after the Civil war. Those immigrants aren't taking tech jobs, secretarial jobs, customer service jobs, they're taking kitchen jobs, farm work, construction, etc and doing so likely for much less than an employer would pay a citizen to work the same job. That, and because the immigrants are just happy to have something, they're probably going to be better workers.

So a lot of unskilled citizen labor is likely being priced out of the market by immigrants even as it's shrinking in general. It even happens here in the STEM fields with Indian and Chinese folks coming over on H1B (I think that's it) visas. They're willing to bust ass and do it for a lot less so they take jobs Americans can't really compete for because budgets are what they are. It's not even the immigrants' fault, but the "Profits>All" will kill the labor market at these levels.

So when some do gooder politician says, "hey let's bring in more immigrants" he's not thinking about it in terms of what that means for certain strata of society. The people who get displaced are probably thinking "why does he want to help these people who just got here or who aren't even citizens, but not me?"

Middle class and wealthy people don't feel the same about immigrants because they don't often ever have to worry about their jobs being taken, and even if they are, if they have skills or connections, they can always get another job.

Yes, employers are to blame for it too, but they're only a part of the problem, they're just taking advantage of the situation more than anything else.

So saying that anti immigrant sentiment is racistm/xenophobia/whatever isn't wrong, but I'd hedge bets that for most people, that racism is a cover for the fear they feel at the prospect of not being able to work or pay bills because someone at the top of the food chain decided that's how it was going to be.

[Edited 9/4/19 18:39pm]


I probably think that the employers are a much bigger part of the problem than you let on. I also believe outsourcing is a bigger threat to the average American's job than immigrants ,who I still believe generally take the shittiest jobs that even the poorest Americans would balk at. Trump HIMSELF outsourced many jobs, including the manufacturing of his clothing lines to Mexico and Asia. (And I'm curious if the Asians who come on visas to do STEM jobs are getting that much less than their American counterparts. Those jobs generally pay so highly that probably even the lowest paid position is way higher than the average American middle class income) .
[Edited 9/4/19 18:54pm]
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 09/04/19 10:22pm

maplenpg

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:
Because the way they see it (and they may or may not be wrong) those immigrants will essentially replace them in the workforce. Chances are now those immigrants are going to be their competition for jobs just like recently freed slaves were for poor whites after the Civil war. Those immigrants aren't taking tech jobs, secretarial jobs, customer service jobs, they're taking kitchen jobs, farm work, construction, etc and doing so likely for much less than an employer would pay a citizen to work the same job. That, and because the immigrants are just happy to have something, they're probably going to be better workers. So a lot of unskilled citizen labor is likely being priced out of the market by immigrants even as it's shrinking in general. It even happens here in the STEM fields with Indian and Chinese folks coming over on H1B (I think that's it) visas. They're willing to bust ass and do it for a lot less so they take jobs Americans can't really compete for because budgets are what they are. It's not even the immigrants' fault, but the "Profits>All" will kill the labor market at these levels. So when some do gooder politician says, "hey let's bring in more immigrants" he's not thinking about it in terms of what that means for certain strata of society. The people who get displaced are probably thinking "why does he want to help these people who just got here or who aren't even citizens, but not me?" Middle class and wealthy people don't feel the same about immigrants because they don't often ever have to worry about their jobs being taken, and even if they are, if they have skills or connections, they can always get another job. Yes, employers are to blame for it too, but they're only a part of the problem, they're just taking advantage of the situation more than anything else. So saying that anti immigrant sentiment is racistm/xenophobia/whatever isn't wrong, but I'd hedge bets that for most people, that racism is a cover for the fear they feel at the prospect of not being able to work or pay bills because someone at the top of the food chain decided that's how it was going to be. [Edited 9/4/19 18:39pm]
I probably think that the employers are a much bigger part of the problem than you let on. I also believe outsourcing is a bigger threat to the average American's job than immigrants ,who I still believe generally take the shittiest jobs that even the poorest Americans would balk at. Trump HIMSELF outsourced many jobs, including the manufacturing of his clothing lines to Mexico and Asia. (And I'm curious if the Asians who come on visas to do STEM jobs are getting that much less than their American counterparts. Those jobs generally pay so highly that probably even the lowest paid position is way higher than the average American middle class income) . [Edited 9/4/19 18:54pm]

To add to what has been said already. I believe that immigrants share housing in a way UK (and probably US) people won't, or are unwilling to. So you might get 20 immigrants sharing a house with 5 in each bedroom and 5 in the lounge, just to afford the rent. UK citizens would consider a house share to have at least a bedroom each - it means the immigrants can live much cheaper, and therefore take cheaper jobs (not saying it is right or wrong, just an observation really).

[Edited 9/4/19 22:27pm]

If you're going to refer to people as 'scum' or 'garbage vomit', at least have a reason to do so.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 09/05/19 4:39am

deebee

avatar

guitarslinger44 said:

jjhunsecker said:
See, I totally agree with your first paragraph. It just seems that so many focus their attention and anger and even hatred on the immigrants, and almost none on the exploitive employers of these folks.
[b] Because the way they see it (and they may or may not be wrong) those immigrants will essentially replace them in the workforce. Chances are now those immigrants are going to be their competition for jobs just like recently freed slaves were for poor whites after the Civil war. Those immigrants aren't taking tech jobs, secretarial jobs, customer service jobs, they're taking kitchen jobs, farm work, construction, etc and doing so likely for much less than an employer would pay a citizen to work the same job. That, and because the immigrants are just happy to have something, they're probably going to be better workers. So a lot of unskilled citizen labor is likely being priced out of the market by immigrants even as it's shrinking in general. It even happens here in the STEM fields with Indian and Chinese folks coming over on H1B (I think that's it) visas. They're willing to bust ass and do it for a lot less so they take jobs Americans can't really compete for because budgets are what they are. It's not even the immigrants' fault, but the "Profits>All" will kill the labor market at these levels. So when some do gooder politician says, "hey let's bring in more immigrants" he's not thinking about it in terms of what that means for certain strata of society. The people who get displaced are probably thinking "why does he want to help these people who just got here or who aren't even citizens, but not me?" Middle class and wealthy people don't feel the same about immigrants because they don't often ever have to worry about their jobs being taken, and even if they are, if they have skills or connections, they can always get another job. Yes, employers are to blame for it too, but they're only a part of the problem, they're just taking advantage of the situation more than anything else. So saying that anti immigrant sentiment is racistm/xenophobia/whatever isn't wrong, but I'd hedge bets that for a lot people, that racism is a cover for the fear they feel at the prospect of not being able to work or pay bills because someone at the top of the food chain decided that's how it was going to be. Anyway, not trying to Bogart the thread, back to BREXIT.

I think there's a lot in this, especially the part about people in different class positions experiencing immigration as more or less of a threat, and how that conditions people's political views. There's certainly a dynamic in the UK around Brexit where well-heeled liberal folk are appalled and baffled by Brexit voters, and consider this a descent into something awful, in exactly the same way that a section of the American population is baffled and contemptuous of Trump supporters. But one could note, of that, that they are - put crudely and slightly unfairly - the ones being served their latte by the cheery Italian barista, whose charming 'otherness' enhances their consumption experience, and who can imagine their upwardly mobile kids going off to gain an edifying experience working in another EU country in the future under free movement laws, not the ones competing on the labour market for unskilled service sector jobs. The right, of course, capitalises on this by staging it as a 'culture war' between 'metropolitan elites' and 'ordinary British people', occluding the class dynamics in play.

There's a sense in which it's not quite like this, too. Firstly, because we have minimum wage in the UK, so you can't directly 'undercut' British workers. How I think the labour market part plays out is that opening up the labour market by way of free movement doesn't lessen the price of labour per se, because a floor level has been set, but it does help it not to increase above that minimum level. Likewise, it renders all workers more easily 'substitutable' and precarious.

Some have argued that that argument is bad economics, as 100 new Polish workers don't simply 'take' a portion of a fixed 'lump of labour'. As they need to buy food, get haircuts, get their car fixed, go to the mall, etc, they also increase the demand for labour as well as the supply. True enough, but I wonder if supply and demand increase at a 1:1 ratio, or if it's less than that. My view, though, is that it's the increased demand for housing, doctor's surgery places, schools, etc, that generates more antagonism, especially when those services provided by the state are being reduced. Under those circumstances, I can see how someone who tells you your citizenship should enable you to get a 'priority' place in the queue, or tells you he's going to reduce the size of the queue itself, can seem appealing.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 09/05/19 4:59am

deebee

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

guitarslinger44 said:
We've talked about this before, but I think there are a lot of employers who know there will be immigrants or migrant workers' they can pay extremely low wages to that they couldn't get away with that if they were hiring citizens. I'd agree with you that a lot of the business owners are probably right wing but they're also business owners and their desire to be able to eke out more profit likely trumps their ideology. Besides, it usually seems like its lower skill/lower wage earning folks or the politicians who rely on them to get elected that are generally the most fervently anti-immigration. [Edited 9/4/19 14:31pm]
See, I totally agree with your first paragraph. It just seems that so many focus their attention and anger and even hatred on the immigrants, and almost none on the exploitive employers of these folks.

I think that's correct - and the employers hate and have desperately tried to thwart Brexit, appealing to a sense of cosmopolitanism and inclusiveness, to which Remain voters respond. Of course, that means the right can say, "Look at those metropolitan liberals siding with the elites to thwart the people's will and keep ordinary hardworking Brits down! We are now the only ones looking out for your interests!"

For a while, even in the last GE in 2017, Corbyn was offering an antidote to that - accepting the result of the referendum and promising a departure from the EU that wasn't going to be the Thatcherite fire-sale of all our public assets (e.g. the NHS) that Boris Johnson and UKIP's Nigel Farage would happily preside over. The discourse had an explicit class character, pitting foreign and domestic workers alike against exploitative employers and a complacent political class. Unfortunately, the pro-Remain, pro-business forces within his party seem now to have succeeded in pushing him into joining them in opposing Brexit (now opposing a 'no deal' Brexit, then backing a second referendum to get the 'right' result, etc). I think that though his class discourse will stay the same, that will hurt him in Labour's post-industrial 'heartland' areas in the north of England especially.

[Edited 9/5/19 5:54am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 09/05/19 5:22am

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

jjhunsecker said:



I probably think that the employers are a much bigger part of the problem than you let on. I also believe outsourcing is a bigger threat to the average American's job than immigrants ,who I still believe generally take the shittiest jobs that even the poorest Americans would balk at. Trump HIMSELF outsourced many jobs, including the manufacturing of his clothing lines to Mexico and Asia. (And I'm curious if the Asians who come on visas to do STEM jobs are getting that much less than their American counterparts. Those jobs generally pay so highly that probably even the lowest paid position is way higher than the average American middle class income) .
[Edited 9/4/19 18:54pm]



If employers were actively trying to get immigrants they could pay low wages here then I'd agree but all they're doing is taking advantage.

RE outsourcing, I'd agree if most of the blue collar jobs that could be outsourced hadn't been already. Call centers are going through that now though, and it's annoying.

As for H-1B visas, they're essentially temps who come in to do higher level work. They're usually very educated, sometimes even here in the US, but with all the college grads we have here, especially in STEM fields, it just makes me wonder why they need them.

[Edited 9/5/19 5:23am]
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 09/05/19 5:24am

guitarslinger4
4

avatar

maplenpg said:



jjhunsecker said:


guitarslinger44 said:
Because the way they see it (and they may or may not be wrong) those immigrants will essentially replace them in the workforce. Chances are now those immigrants are going to be their competition for jobs just like recently freed slaves were for poor whites after the Civil war. Those immigrants aren't taking tech jobs, secretarial jobs, customer service jobs, they're taking kitchen jobs, farm work, construction, etc and doing so likely for much less than an employer would pay a citizen to work the same job. That, and because the immigrants are just happy to have something, they're probably going to be better workers. So a lot of unskilled citizen labor is likely being priced out of the market by immigrants even as it's shrinking in general. It even happens here in the STEM fields with Indian and Chinese folks coming over on H1B (I think that's it) visas. They're willing to bust ass and do it for a lot less so they take jobs Americans can't really compete for because budgets are what they are. It's not even the immigrants' fault, but the "Profits>All" will kill the labor market at these levels. So when some do gooder politician says, "hey let's bring in more immigrants" he's not thinking about it in terms of what that means for certain strata of society. The people who get displaced are probably thinking "why does he want to help these people who just got here or who aren't even citizens, but not me?" Middle class and wealthy people don't feel the same about immigrants because they don't often ever have to worry about their jobs being taken, and even if they are, if they have skills or connections, they can always get another job. Yes, employers are to blame for it too, but they're only a part of the problem, they're just taking advantage of the situation more than anything else. So saying that anti immigrant sentiment is racistm/xenophobia/whatever isn't wrong, but I'd hedge bets that for most people, that racism is a cover for the fear they feel at the prospect of not being able to work or pay bills because someone at the top of the food chain decided that's how it was going to be. [Edited 9/4/19 18:39pm]

I probably think that the employers are a much bigger part of the problem than you let on. I also believe outsourcing is a bigger threat to the average American's job than immigrants ,who I still believe generally take the shittiest jobs that even the poorest Americans would balk at. Trump HIMSELF outsourced many jobs, including the manufacturing of his clothing lines to Mexico and Asia. (And I'm curious if the Asians who come on visas to do STEM jobs are getting that much less than their American counterparts. Those jobs generally pay so highly that probably even the lowest paid position is way higher than the average American middle class income) . [Edited 9/4/19 18:54pm]

To add to what has been said already. I believe that immigrants share housing in a way UK (and probably US) people won't, or are unwilling to. So you might get 20 immigrants sharing a house with 5 in each bedroom and 5 in the lounge, just to afford the rent. UK citizens would consider a house share to have at least a bedroom each - it means the immigrants can live much cheaper, and therefore take cheaper jobs (not saying it is right or wrong, just an observation really).

[Edited 9/4/19 22:27pm]



Agreed 100%.

Is the UK like the US is in that y'all have a lot of blue collar workers out of work because their jobs have been outsourced?
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 09/05/19 5:33am

jaawwnn

avatar

What on earth is a Blue-Collar job in 2019? The traditional "blue-collar" mining jobs in the UK were destroyed by force by Thatcher in the 80's which means the Conservatices can't do the Republican thing of wheeling up the last 5 miners left in the country and say they're going to save their jobs.


[Edited 9/5/19 5:37am]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 3 123>
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > Can someone from the UK explain Brexit in a way even I can understand.