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Thread started 08/28/19 4:49am

2elijah

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America’s Other Original Sin - Enslavement of Native Americans

Informational purposes.Thus is an article written about the enslavement if Native Americans in America. Of course it doesn’t cover all of that history.

https://www.google.com/am...story.html


America’s Other Original Sin

“Europeans didn’t just displace Native Americans—they enslaved them, and encouraged tribes to participate in the slave trade, on a scale historians are only beginning to fathom.”

By Rebecca Onion
Jan. 18, 2016 5:30 AM


“Here are three scenes from the history of slavery in North America. In 1637, a group of Pequot Indians, men and boys, having risen up against English colonists in Connecticut and been defeated, were sold to plantations in the West Indies in exchange for African slaves, allowing the colonists to remove a resistant element from their midst.


(Click on link)
“Uncomfortable conversations creates change” — Anonymous
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Reply #1 posted 08/28/19 9:48pm

hausofmoi7

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the impact of slavery on the descendants of slavery from Africa and the impact of indentured labour on Asians and Europeans has played out dramatically after the end of feudalism and slavery.



In the u.s, Australia,Canada those from the african trans Atlantic slave trade and the indegenious populations made up the slave populations .
As a result at the end of feudalism and slavery descendents of slavery did not have capital like the indentured labourers to build a middle class in the former colonies.
The indentured labourers of Australia and u.s from Europe now make up the upper and middle classes.
The former slaves are the bottom as a result of slavery compared to the results of indentured labour.
The country I was born in Mauritius has a similar system. Indentured labourers from India’s lower castes now make up the upper classes in the society.
And the creole population of former slaves from the transatlantic slave trade still make up are the lower classes.

Indentured labour was undoubtedly bad, but it wasn’t slavery and the impact was huge as you can see in how it shaped the class /race dynamics today.



.
[Edited 8/28/19 22:07pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #2 posted 08/28/19 10:45pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

the impact of slavery on the descendants of slavery from Africa and the impact of indentured labour on Asians and Europeans has played out dramatically after the end of feudalism and slavery. In the u.s, Australia,Canada the african trans Atlantic slave trade and the indegenious populations made up the slave populations. As a result at the end of feudalism and slavery descendents of slavery did not have capital like the indentured labourers to build a middle class in the former colonies. The indentured labourers of Australia and u.s from Europe now make up the upper and middle classes. The former slaves are the bottom as a result of slavery compared to the results of indentured labour. The country I was born in Mauritius has a similar system. Indentured labourers from India’s lower castes now make up the upper classes in the society. And the creole population of former slaves from the transatlantic slave trade still make up are the lower classes. Indentured labour was undoubtedly bad, but it wasn’t slavery and the impact was huge as you can see in how it shaped the class /race dynamics today. Just saying. . [Edited 8/28/19 21:59pm]

.

As ever in regards to Australia, this is largely wrong:

.

Australia was a not destination of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

.

Its indentured labourer style slaves were the 62,000 South Pacific Islanders. Most were returned and the descents of the few that remained in no way make up the Upper and Middle classes of Australia today.

.

The upper class is largely not made up of the descents of convict slaves, but initially of the descendents of free-settlers and people appointed to positions of power in Australia from the UK. The wealth that created the new local middle classes came from the gold rushes and alike - these were not reliant on capital as many of the descents of convict slaves with no capital became the middle class through the gold rushes.

.

In regards to the topic of enslavement of native populations: There absolutely was slavery, near slavery and...ploitation of our local indigenous population just as in the US. This was in the very remote parts of Queensland, South Australia, Nothern Territory and Western Australia for the cattle, pearl, sheep, cotton and sugar industries.

[Edited 8/28/19 23:14pm]

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Reply #3 posted 08/29/19 2:06am

hausofmoi7

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IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


the impact of slavery on the descendants of slavery from Africa and the impact of indentured labour on Asians and Europeans has played out dramatically after the end of feudalism and slavery. In the u.s, Australia,Canada the african trans Atlantic slave trade and the indegenious populations made up the slave populations. As a result at the end of feudalism and slavery descendents of slavery did not have capital like the indentured labourers to build a middle class in the former colonies. The indentured labourers of Australia and u.s from Europe now make up the upper and middle classes. The former slaves are the bottom as a result of slavery compared to the results of indentured labour. The country I was born in Mauritius has a similar system. Indentured labourers from India’s lower castes now make up the upper classes in the society. And the creole population of former slaves from the transatlantic slave trade still make up are the lower classes. Indentured labour was undoubtedly bad, but it wasn’t slavery and the impact was huge as you can see in how it shaped the class /race dynamics today. Just saying. . [Edited 8/28/19 21:59pm]

.


As ever in regards to Australia, this is largely wrong:


.


Australia was a not destination of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.


.


Its indentured labourer style slaves were the 62,000 South Pacific Islanders. Most were returned and the descents of the few that remained in no way make up the Upper and Middle classes of Australia today.


.


The upper class is largely not made up of the descents of convict slaves, but initially of the descendents of free-settlers and people appointed to positions of power in Australia from the UK. The wealth that created the new local middle classes came from the gold rushes and alike - these were not reliant on capital as many of the descents of convict slaves with no capital became the middle class through the gold rushes.


.


In regards to the topic of enslavement of native populations: There absolutely was slavery, near slavery and...ploitation of our local indigenous population just as in the US. This was in the very remote parts of Queensland, South Australia, Nothern Territory and Western Australia for the cattle, pearl, sheep, cotton and sugar industries.

[Edited 8/28/19 23:14pm]


Indentured labour and slavery were not the same.
The class and race system that indentured labour and colonialism created today.
Which is the same system both conservatives and neo liberals protect still.
Australia’s corporations and institutions owe repatriations that is probably most of the industry’s that were built from mining the land.
Indegenious populations were not allowed to own land that ended up being bought by Anglo-Australians and turned into some of the largest natural resource companies in the world and built their white supermacist society. A capitalist system Built on Stolen resources and slave labour.

Indentured labour was not the same as slavery , genocide and colonialism.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #4 posted 08/29/19 4:06am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

As ever in regards to Australia, this is largely wrong:

.

Australia was a not destination of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

.

Its indentured labourer style slaves were the 62,000 South Pacific Islanders. Most were returned and the descents of the few that remained in no way make up the Upper and Middle classes of Australia today.

.

The upper class is largely not made up of the descents of convict slaves, but initially of the descendents of free-settlers and people appointed to positions of power in Australia from the UK. The wealth that created the new local middle classes came from the gold rushes and alike - these were not reliant on capital as many of the descents of convict slaves with no capital became the middle class through the gold rushes.

.

In regards to the topic of enslavement of native populations: There absolutely was slavery, near slavery and...ploitation of our local indigenous population just as in the US. This was in the very remote parts of Queensland, South Australia, Nothern Territory and Western Australia for the cattle, pearl, sheep, cotton and sugar industries.

[Edited 8/28/19 23:14pm]

Indentured labour and slavery were not the same. The class and race system that indentured labour and colonialism created today. Which is the same system both conservatives and neo liberals protect still. Australia’s corporations and institutions owe repatriations that is probably most of the industry’s that were built from mining the land. Indegenious populations were not allowed to own land that ended up being bought by Anglo-Australians and turned into some of the largest natural resource companies in the world and built their white supermacist society. A capitalist system Built on Stolen resources and slave labour. Indentured labour was not the same as slavery , genocide and colonialism.

.

The topic is about enslavement of native Americans, not about indentured labour in Australia. The only indentured labour in Australian history were the 62,000 South Pacific Islanders. Your view on Australia is irrelevant to the topic and it is factually wrong.

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Reply #5 posted 08/29/19 5:09am

hausofmoi7

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IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


As ever in regards to Australia, this is largely wrong:


.


Australia was a not destination of the trans-Atlantic slave trade.


.


Its indentured labourer style slaves were the 62,000 South Pacific Islanders. Most were returned and the descents of the few that remained in no way make up the Upper and Middle classes of Australia today.


.


The upper class is largely not made up of the descents of convict slaves, but initially of the descendents of free-settlers and people appointed to positions of power in Australia from the UK. The wealth that created the new local middle classes came from the gold rushes and alike - these were not reliant on capital as many of the descents of convict slaves with no capital became the middle class through the gold rushes.


.


In regards to the topic of enslavement of native populations: There absolutely was slavery, near slavery and...ploitation of our local indigenous population just as in the US. This was in the very remote parts of Queensland, South Australia, Nothern Territory and Western Australia for the cattle, pearl, sheep, cotton and sugar industries.


[Edited 8/28/19 23:14pm]



Indentured labour and slavery were not the same. The class and race system that indentured labour and colonialism created today. Which is the same system both conservatives and neo liberals protect still. Australia’s corporations and institutions owe repatriations that is probably most of the industry’s that were built from mining the land. Indegenious populations were not allowed to own land that ended up being bought by Anglo-Australians and turned into some of the largest natural resource companies in the world and built their white supermacist society. A capitalist system Built on Stolen resources and slave labour. Indentured labour was not the same as slavery , genocide and colonialism.

.


The topic is about enslavement of native Americans, not about indentured labour in Australia. The only indentured labour in Australian history were the 62,000 South Pacific Islanders. Your view on Australia is irrelevant to the topic and it is factually wrong.


The inference is indentured labour of convicts in Australia. Or asians in other colonies is somehow comparable.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #6 posted 08/29/19 7:34am

2freaky4church
1

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Cornel West is working. lol

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #7 posted 08/29/19 8:36am

2elijah

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2freaky4church1 said:

Cornel West is working. lol


That has nothing to do with this thread. Please stick to the topic.
“Uncomfortable conversations creates change” — Anonymous
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Reply #8 posted 08/29/19 9:14am

poppys

hausofmoi7 said:

... And the creole population of former slaves from the transatlantic slave trade still make up are the lower classes...


Haus, why do you always post off-topic? There are other other slavery threads open right now. This is about Native Americans.

And wherever you got the statement above from, it is NOT correct.

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Reply #9 posted 08/29/19 9:22am

poppys

The escape of Native American slaves was frequent, because they had a better understanding of the land, which African slaves did not. Consequently, the Natives who were captured and sold into slavery were often sent to the West Indies, or far away from their home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States

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Reply #10 posted 08/29/19 9:46am

poppys

www.undergroundrailroad.org.uk/ur-native%20americans.htm

Native Americans

The long standing alliance between blacks and Native Americans (with notable exceptions), the role of Native American Nations in helping fugitive slaves and the erosion of the alliance by white Americans culminating in the tragic removal of the Native Americans from their ancestral homes.

Synopsis:
In colonial America, many fugitive slaves escaped across the frontier into Native American territory. Acting consistent with the dictum that "the enemy of the enemy is my friend," Native Americans usually welcomed fugitive slaves with the fugitive slaves finding new homes in Native American villages, many intermarrying with Native Americans, with the resultant offspring becoming classified as 'Black Indians'. However, between the 1780s and 1840, as American settlement spread westward and the Native Americans east of the Mississippi River were dispossessed, white Americans used their growing power to drive a wedge between the other two races. As cotton cultivation spread into the Gulf States after 1800, Native Americans such as the Cherokee and Chickasaw were encouraged to become slave-holders to improve their relations with whites. Ultimately, the long-standing alliance between blacks and Native Americans could not withstand the growing power of the expanding United States that first pressed Native Americans to adopt slavery and, after the Civil War, employed black soldiers to complete the conquest of the Native Americans of the Great Plains and the Southwest...
_________

The bolded part is still in evidence today in New Orleans, with the Mardi Gras Indian tribes and culture. It is a very interesting part of the history here, dating back to slavery times. It is NOT people dressing up like Native Americans for a party.

I have paraded with the Golden Eagles (Uptown) tribe on Mardi Gras day. It starts at the house of Big Chief Monk Boudreaux and his family and winds through the neighborhood, meeting up with other tribes. There is a formal "mock battle" that occurs when tribes meet. There is so much more I could write about this, many aspects and traditions in this culture. New suits are made every year, personally designed, hand sewn and beaded by the chief using traditional Native American skills.

Mardi Gras Indians are musicians and social activists. A great documentary on the culture is Tootie's Last Suit, made right before one of the most revered patriarchs of all the tribes passed away suddenly in 2009.

12965977a104d073c38c328c7159acad90cc202c.jpg
Big Chief Monk Boudreaux


3773447969_504c4cc8f0_z.jpg
Chief Allison "Tootie" Montana


[Edited 8/29/19 10:39am]

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Reply #11 posted 08/29/19 9:52am

2elijah

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poppys said:

The escape of Native American slaves was frequent, because they had a better understanding of the land, which African slaves did not. Consequently, the Natives who were captured and sold into slavery were often sent to the West Indies, or far away from their home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States


That’s very true. Many Caribbeans have Native snd West African and European ancestry. So much transporting of Africans and Native Americans to the West Indies during the Trans-Atlantic slavery trade. I have all 3 in my DNA results.
“Uncomfortable conversations creates change” — Anonymous
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Reply #12 posted 08/29/19 11:35am

2elijah

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poppys said:

www.undergroundrailroad.org.uk/ur-native%20americans.htm


Native Americans


The long standing alliance between blacks and Native Americans (with notable exceptions), the role of Native American Nations in helping fugitive slaves and the erosion of the alliance by white Americans culminating in the tragic removal of the Native Americans from their ancestral homes.

Synopsis:
In colonial America, many fugitive slaves escaped across the frontier into Native American territory. Acting consistent with the dictum that "the enemy of the enemy is my friend," Native Americans usually welcomed fugitive slaves with the fugitive slaves finding new homes in Native American villages, many intermarrying with Native Americans, with the resultant offspring becoming classified as 'Black Indians'. However, between the 1780s and 1840, as American settlement spread westward and the Native Americans east of the Mississippi River were dispossessed, white Americans used their growing power to drive a wedge between the other two races. As cotton cultivation spread into the Gulf States after 1800, Native Americans such as the Cherokee and Chickasaw were encouraged to become slave-holders to improve their relations with whites. Ultimately, the long-standing alliance between blacks and Native Americans could not withstand the growing power of the expanding United States that first pressed Native Americans to adopt slavery and, after the Civil War, employed black soldiers to complete the conquest of the Native Americans of the Great Plains and the Southwest...
_____


The bolded part is still in evidence today in New Orleans, with the Mardi Gras Indian tribes and culture. It is a very interesting part of the history here, dating back to slavery times. It is NOT people dressing up like Native Americans for a party.

I have paraded with the Golden Eagles (Uptown) tribe on Mardi Gras day. It starts at the house of Big Chief Monk Boudreaux and his family and winds through the neighborhood, meeting up with other tribes. There is a formal "mock battle" that occurs when tribes meet. There is so much more I could write about this, many aspects and traditions in this culture. New suits are made every year, personally designed, hand sewn and beaded by the chief using traditional Native American skills.

Mardi Gras Indians are musicians and social activists. A great documentary on the culture is Tootie's Last Suit, made right before one of the most revered patriarchs of all the tribes passed away suddenly in 2009.

12965977a104d073c38c328c7159acad90cc202c.jpg
Big Chief Monk Boudreaux


3773447969_504c4cc8f0_z.jpg
Chief Allison "Tootie" Montana


[Edited 8/29/19 10:39am]


Thanks Poppy. I would love to see that documentary.
“Uncomfortable conversations creates change” — Anonymous
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Reply #13 posted 08/29/19 3:01pm

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:



hausofmoi7 said:


... And the creole population of former slaves from the transatlantic slave trade still make up are the lower classes...


Haus, why do you always post off-topic? There are other other slavery threads open right now. This is about Native Americans.

And wherever you got the statement above from, it is NOT correct.


That is correct.
Former slaves make up the lower classes.
Indentured labourers/convicts make up the upper classes.
This is true of all the former slave colonies.

There are several threads and some people are inferring that somehow slavery and racism plays no role in how the class/race system that we have today was created.

I’m not sure why this fact bothers certain people so much.
the responses I receive are always quite hostile on this subject.


Also, you edited the reply to take away context.
Keep trying Poppy.


The use of indegenious populations as part of the slave trade is very much conveniently left out of discussions.
And how that built the class system we have today.




.
[Edited 8/29/19 15:22pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #14 posted 08/29/19 3:48pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

poppys said:


Haus, why do you always post off-topic? There are other other slavery threads open right now. This is about Native Americans.

And wherever you got the statement above from, it is NOT correct.

That is correct. Former slaves make up the lower classes. Indentured labourers/convicts make up the upper classes. This is true of all the former slave colonies. There are several threads and some people are inferring that somehow slavery and racism plays no role in how the class/race system that we have today was created. I’m not sure why this fact bothers certain people so much. the responses I receive are always quite hostile on this subject. Also, you edited the reply to take away context. Keep trying Poppy. . . [Edited 8/29/19 15:10pm]

.

Aside from the obvious that indentured labour and unindentured convict labour are two very different things, the topic is Enslavement of Native Americans.

.

This is painfully obvious when you consider that some of the Native American slaves were people taken prisoner and as convicts were used or sold as slaves. For example when people surrendered to the New England Confederation in the American Indian war known as King Philip's war of 1675 to 1678. "King Philip" was the adopted name used by Metacomet, cheif of Wampanoag people. Around 1/3rd of New England Natives subsequently became enslaved by debt forcing them into indentured servitude after they lost the ability to fend for themselves on restricted lands.

.

You are seeking to make a distinction that does not exist. Some slaves (Native, from Afica or where ever) were enslaved through the courts and so were convict slaves - some of these exchanged their conviction for transportation under an indentured labour contract - some became indentured by economic exploitation of hardships. Your point is moot because indentured labour was imposed on Native Amenricans and others and it is banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.

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Reply #15 posted 08/29/19 4:09pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


poppys said:



Haus, why do you always post off-topic? There are other other slavery threads open right now. This is about Native Americans.

And wherever you got the statement above from, it is NOT correct.



That is correct. Former slaves make up the lower classes. Indentured labourers/convicts make up the upper classes. This is true of all the former slave colonies. There are several threads and some people are inferring that somehow slavery and racism plays no role in how the class/race system that we have today was created. I’m not sure why this fact bothers certain people so much. the responses I receive are always quite hostile on this subject. Also, you edited the reply to take away context. Keep trying Poppy. . . [Edited 8/29/19 15:10pm]

.


Aside from the obvious that indentured labour and unindentured convict labour are two very different things, the topic is Enslavement of Native Americans.


.


This is painfully obvious when you consider that some of the Native American slaves were people taken prisoner and as convicts were used or sold as slaves. For example when people surrendered to the New England Confederation in the American Indian war known as King Philip's war of 1675 to 1678. "King Philip" was the adopted name used by Metacomet, cheif of Wampanoag people. Around 1/3rd of New England Natives subsequently became enslaved by debt forcing them into indentured servitude after they lost the ability to fend for themselves on restricted lands.


.


You are seeking to make a distinction that does not exist. Some slaves (Native, from Afica or where ever) were enslaved through the courts and so were convict slaves - some of these exchanged their conviction for transportation under an indentured labour contract - some became indentured by economic exploitation of hardships. Your point is moot because indentured labour was imposed on Native Amenricans and others and it is banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.



Indentured labour and slavery were two different things.
Indegenious and african populations were slaves.
Europeans and Asians from lower classes were indentured labourers.

I’m not even saying indentured labour was fair or right.
I’m pointing out the class and race structure that still exist today as a result of these differences that you are adamant on blurring and desperate to dismiss as irrelevant.
That’s how neo-liberalism works, admit there is racism but always be the gatekeeper.
Well played Ian.






.
[Edited 8/29/19 16:13pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #16 posted 08/29/19 4:14pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Aside from the obvious that indentured labour and unindentured convict labour are two very different things, the topic is Enslavement of Native Americans.

.

This is painfully obvious when you consider that some of the Native American slaves were people taken prisoner and as convicts were used or sold as slaves. For example when people surrendered to the New England Confederation in the American Indian war known as King Philip's war of 1675 to 1678. "King Philip" was the adopted name used by Metacomet, cheif of Wampanoag people. Around 1/3rd of New England Natives subsequently became enslaved by debt forcing them into indentured servitude after they lost the ability to fend for themselves on restricted lands.

.

You are seeking to make a distinction that does not exist. Some slaves (Native, from Afica or where ever) were enslaved through the courts and so were convict slaves - some of these exchanged their conviction for transportation under an indentured labour contract - some became indentured by economic exploitation of hardships. Your point is moot because indentured labour was imposed on Native Amenricans and others and it is banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.

Indentured labour and slavery were two different things. Indegenious and african populations were slaves. Europeans and Asians from lower classes were indentured labourers. I’m not even saying indentured labour was fair or right. I’m pointing out the class and race structure that still exist today as a result of these differences that you are adamant on blurring and dismissing as irrelevant.

.

Yes, there are differences between slavery by capture and sale, slavery by being convicted and used and slavery by being forced into a indenture contract. Native Americans were enslaved by capture and sale, enslaved by conviction and being used and enslaved by indenture.

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Reply #17 posted 08/29/19 4:33pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


Aside from the obvious that indentured labour and unindentured convict labour are two very different things, the topic is Enslavement of Native Americans.


.


This is painfully obvious when you consider that some of the Native American slaves were people taken prisoner and as convicts were used or sold as slaves. For example when people surrendered to the New England Confederation in the American Indian war known as King Philip's war of 1675 to 1678. "King Philip" was the adopted name used by Metacomet, cheif of Wampanoag people. Around 1/3rd of New England Natives subsequently became enslaved by debt forcing them into indentured servitude after they lost the ability to fend for themselves on restricted lands.


.


You are seeking to make a distinction that does not exist. Some slaves (Native, from Afica or where ever) were enslaved through the courts and so were convict slaves - some of these exchanged their conviction for transportation under an indentured labour contract - some became indentured by economic exploitation of hardships. Your point is moot because indentured labour was imposed on Native Amenricans and others and it is banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.



Indentured labour and slavery were two different things. Indegenious and african populations were slaves. Europeans and Asians from lower classes were indentured labourers. I’m not even saying indentured labour was fair or right. I’m pointing out the class and race structure that still exist today as a result of these differences that you are adamant on blurring and dismissing as irrelevant.

.


Yes, there are differences between slavery by capture and sale, slavery by being convicted and used and slavery by being forced into a indenture contract. Native Americans were enslaved by capture and sale, enslaved by conviction and being used and enslaved by indenture.



Yes indegenious population were slaves.
Unlike the indentured labourers from Europe and Asia.
These differences created class today.
As a neo-liberal/centrist/gatekeeper I’m sure you will disagree.





.
[Edited 8/29/19 16:37pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #18 posted 08/29/19 5:09pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


Aside from the obvious that indentured labour and unindentured convict labour are two very different things, the topic is Enslavement of Native Americans.


.


This is painfully obvious when you consider that some of the Native American slaves were people taken prisoner and as convicts were used or sold as slaves. For example when people surrendered to the New England Confederation in the American Indian war known as King Philip's war of 1675 to 1678. "King Philip" was the adopted name used by Metacomet, cheif of Wampanoag people. Around 1/3rd of New England Natives subsequently became enslaved by debt forcing them into indentured servitude after they lost the ability to fend for themselves on restricted lands.


.


You are seeking to make a distinction that does not exist. Some slaves (Native, from Afica or where ever) were enslaved through the courts and so were convict slaves - some of these exchanged their conviction for transportation under an indentured labour contract - some became indentured by economic exploitation of hardships. Your point is moot because indentured labour was imposed on Native Amenricans and others and it is banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.



Indentured labour and slavery were two different things. Indegenious and african populations were slaves. Europeans and Asians from lower classes were indentured labourers. I’m not even saying indentured labour was fair or right. I’m pointing out the class and race structure that still exist today as a result of these differences that you are adamant on blurring and dismissing as irrelevant.

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Yes, there are differences between slavery by capture and sale, slavery by being convicted and used and slavery by being forced into a indenture contract. Native Americans were enslaved by capture and sale, enslaved by conviction and being used and enslaved by indenture.



Yes indegenious population were slaves.
Unlike the indentured labourers from Europe and Asia.
These differences created class today.
As a neo-liberal/centrist/gatekeeper I’m sure you will disagree.




.
[Edited 8/29/19 16:37pm]



Class and race are interconnected conversations.
As always the gatekeepers want to keep the conversation within the parameters that doesn’t threaten the current system that slavery and colonialism built.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #19 posted 08/29/19 5:17pm

hausofmoi7

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hausofmoi7 said:

hausofmoi7 said:


Yes indegenious population were slaves.
Unlike the indentured labourers from Europe and Asia.
These differences created class today.
As a neo-liberal/centrist/gatekeeper I’m sure you will disagree.




.
[Edited 8/29/19 16:37pm]



Class and race are interconnected conversations.
As always the gatekeepers want to keep the conversation within the parameters that doesn’t threaten the current system that slavery and colonialism built.


Let’s not forget some indentured labourers were hired to cull indegenious population
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #20 posted 08/29/19 5:20pm

poppys

hausofmoi7 said:

... And the creole population of former slaves from the transatlantic slave trade still make up are the lower classes...



poppys said:


Haus, why do you always post off-topic? There are other other slavery threads open right now. This is about Native Americans.

And wherever you got the statement above from, it is NOT correct.


That is correct. Former slaves make up the lower classes. Indentured labourers/convicts make up the upper classes. This is true of all the former slave colonies.

There are several threads and some people are inferring that somehow slavery and racism plays no role in how the class/race system that we have today was created. I’m not sure why this fact bothers certain people so much. the responses I receive are always quite hostile on this subject. Also, you edited the reply to take away context. Keep trying Poppy. The use of indegenious populations as part of the slave trade is very much conveniently left out of discussions. And how that built the class system we have today.


No. In the present day, where I live, many creoles are historically upper class. They are doctors, lawyers, mayors and legislators. Ditto the Virgin Islands. Things aren't always so cut and dried. You would have to read about the history of certain places to understand how the social structure evolved.

Don't blame me for what other people are saying on other threads about slavery. I'm not trying to minimize slavery.

[Edited 8/29/19 18:50pm]

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Reply #21 posted 08/29/19 5:50pm

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:



hausofmoi7 said:


poppys said:



Haus, why do you always post off-topic? There are other other slavery threads open right now. This is about Native Americans.

And wherever you got the statement above from, it is NOT correct.




That is correct. Former slaves make up the lower classes. Indentured labourers/convicts make up the upper classes. This is true of all the former slave colonies.

There are several threads and some people are inferring that somehow slavery and racism plays no role in how the class/race system that we have today was created. I’m not sure why this fact bothers certain people so much. the responses I receive are always quite hostile on this subject. Also, you edited the reply to take away context. Keep trying Poppy. The use of indegenious populations as part of the slave trade is very much conveniently left out of discussions. And how that built the class system we have today.



No. In the present day, where I live, many creoles are in the upper class. Things aren't always as cut and dried as you make them. You would have to read about the history of certain places to understand how the social structure evolved.

Don't blame me for what other people are saying on other threads about slavery. I'm not trying to minimize slavery.


The term Creole where I’m from refers to all people of african decent.
Unlike America where the term “creole” denotes those who are of mixed race only or those who want to seen as seperate or “different” than the rest.
Yes, and even in my community there is colorism amongst creoles so I believe you when you say that in America “creoles” place themselves in a different category to blacks.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #22 posted 08/29/19 5:59pm

poppys

hausofmoi7 said:

poppys said:


No. In the present day, where I live, many creoles are in the upper class. Things aren't always as cut and dried as you make them. You would have to read about the history of certain places to understand how the social structure evolved.

Don't blame me for what other people are saying on other threads about slavery. I'm not trying to minimize slavery.


The term Creole where I’m from refers to all people of african decent. Unlike America where the term “creole” denotes those who are of mixed race only or those who want to seen as seperate or “different” than the rest. Yes, and even in my community there is colorism amongst creoles so I believe you when you say that in America “creoles” place themselves in a different category to blacks.


That's not entirely true either. You've never been to the US, so it's hard to understand. But try not to be so dogmatic.

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Reply #23 posted 08/29/19 6:05pm

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:



hausofmoi7 said:


poppys said:



No. In the present day, where I live, many creoles are in the upper class. Things aren't always as cut and dried as you make them. You would have to read about the history of certain places to understand how the social structure evolved.

Don't blame me for what other people are saying on other threads about slavery. I'm not trying to minimize slavery.




The term Creole where I’m from refers to all people of african decent. Unlike America where the term “creole” denotes those who are of mixed race only or those who want to seen as seperate or “different” than the rest. Yes, and even in my community there is colorism amongst creoles so I believe you when you say that in America “creoles” place themselves in a different category to blacks.



That's not entirely true either. You've never been to the US, so it's hard to understand. But try not to be so dogmatic.


I’m creole Poppy.
But thanks anyway.
Where I’m from creole refers to all black people and our different mixes.
In America it does not have the same meaning.
My reference to creole population was not in relation to America.



.
[Edited 8/29/19 18:13pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #24 posted 08/29/19 6:17pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

poppys said:


That's not entirely true either. You've never been to the US, so it's hard to understand. But try not to be so dogmatic.

I’m creole Poppy. But thanks anyway. Where I’m from creole refers to all black people and our different mixes. In America it does not have the same meaning. My reference to creole population was not in relation to America. . [Edited 8/29/19 18:13pm]

.

Why not start a thread on a Mauritius Creoles instead of attacking everyone who points out the topic here is the enslavement of Native Americans? You are uniquely placed to do so.

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Reply #25 posted 08/29/19 6:33pm

hausofmoi7

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IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


poppys said:



That's not entirely true either. You've never been to the US, so it's hard to understand. But try not to be so dogmatic.



I’m creole Poppy. But thanks anyway. Where I’m from creole refers to all black people and our different mixes. In America it does not have the same meaning. My reference to creole population was not in relation to America. . [Edited 8/29/19 18:13pm]

.


Why not start a thread on a Mauritius Creoles instead of attacking everyone who points out the topic here is the enslavement of Native Americans? You are uniquely placed to do so.



I’m not attacking or being aggressive.
I just don’t agree with you.

I think this topic is fine the way it is.
The issue you have is when I link race and class.
Class and racism can’t be seperated.
Slavery of America’s and Australia’s indegenious population created the class structure we have today.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #26 posted 08/29/19 6:52pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Why not start a thread on a Mauritius Creoles instead of attacking everyone who points out the topic here is the enslavement of Native Americans? You are uniquely placed to do so.

I’m not attacking or being aggressive. I just don’t agree with you. I think this topic is fine the way it is. The issue you have is when I link race and class. Class and racism can’t be seperated. Slavery of America’s and Australia’s indegenious population created the class structure we have today.

.

I have no such issue. Race and class are linked. I have never said otherwise.

.

The topic is enslavement of Native Americans. Restricting the topic to enslavement of Native Americans whilst suggesting you can add unique insights by being a Mautius Creole in a different thread is not seeking to gatekeep or hide the evil that was and is being done to Native Americans.

[Edited 8/29/19 18:54pm]

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Reply #27 posted 08/29/19 7:02pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


Why not start a thread on a Mauritius Creoles instead of attacking everyone who points out the topic here is the enslavement of Native Americans? You are uniquely placed to do so.



I’m not attacking or being aggressive. I just don’t agree with you. I think this topic is fine the way it is. The issue you have is when I link race and class. Class and racism can’t be seperated. Slavery of America’s and Australia’s indegenious population created the class structure we have today.

.


I have no such issue. Race and class are linked. I have never said otherwise.


.


The topic is enslavement of Native Americans. Restricting the topic to enslavement of Native Americans whilst suggesting you can add unique insights by being a Mautius Creole in a different thread is not seeking to gatekeep or hide the evil that was and is being done to Native Americans.

[Edited 8/29/19 18:54pm]



Sure you are.
All I said was Australia also did this to its indegenious population.
Slavery of their indegenious populations in Australia and America is a controversial topic.
Not only are resources being stolen to fund capitalism and peoples share-portfolios.
But slavery was used to build these exact same companies that are extracting resources.




.
[Edited 8/29/19 19:10pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #28 posted 08/29/19 7:03pm

poppys

2elijah said:

poppys said:

The escape of Native American slaves was frequent, because they had a better understanding of the land, which African slaves did not. Consequently, the Natives who were captured and sold into slavery were often sent to the West Indies, or far away from their home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States


That’s very true. Many Caribbeans have Native and West African and European ancestry. So much transporting of Africans and Native Americans to the West Indies during the Trans-Atlantic slavery trade. I have all 3 in my DNA results.


That is so interesting. I remember when you decided to get tested. Don't really know how detailed it gets. Would Taino DNA be different from Carib? I know Tainos were Arawak and there were Arawaks in Florida and the Bahamas too.

edit - Just looked up Caribs. They were originally from mainland South America. So I guess it would be different DNA.

[Edited 8/29/19 19:25pm]

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Reply #29 posted 08/29/19 7:12pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

I have no such issue. Race and class are linked. I have never said otherwise.

.

The topic is enslavement of Native Americans. Restricting the topic to enslavement of Native Americans whilst suggesting you can add unique insights by being a Mautius Creole in a different thread is not seeking to gatekeep or hide the evil that was and is being done to Native Americans.

[Edited 8/29/19 18:54pm]

Sure you are. All I said was Australia also did this to its indegenious population. Slavery of their indegenious populations in Australia and America is a controversial topic.

.

And if you look back, I gave a link to an article that discussed slavery of South Pacific Islanders and Indigenous Australians in the third post in this thread tht agreed with you. It was not all you said and what I disputed was the factual errors in the other things you said.

.

Slavery is a controversial topic and it is too easily distracted by people looking to push their agenda. The topic is not your opinion of Australia, it is the enslavement of Native Americans. Other than pointing out this evil was not unique to the USA, the rest is a distaction from the topic.

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