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Thread started 05/23/19 10:40am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Ignoring the elephant in the room ?

Can we look at this realistically and academically?

I and a female friend were talking about violence in the human race, and more specifically M->F violence (we discussed at lenght F->F violence and F->elderly/children violence as well but those are different topics).
She said something in question form, which was more of a statement, that I want to present here.
.
If women are mostly raising men, whether she is married, divorced, widowed, single etc, why are women raising males violent toward women?

I want to specifically look at the Mother/Son relationship.

.

.

.

biracial author Rebecca Walker who contributed writing to a book:

What Makes a Man

QUESTIONS FOR REBECCA WALKER

Reimagining Boyhood, said this in an interview, that I think is pertinent:

whatmakesaman.jpg

For the last 50 years, women have been intensely re-envisioning femininity and what it means to be a woman. I think that same scrutiny should be applied to men.But feminism began because women were at a social disadvantage.

Men, as a group, are not socially disadvantaged, so they don't need special pleading.

I don't agree with that. The feminist movement came into being because women were fundamentally in pain and unable to develop to their full potential. And men are similarly hampered by this masculine ideal, in which they are expected to repress their emotions.

13q4.184.jpg

http://www.rebeccawalker....akes-a-man

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #1 posted 05/23/19 10:47am

OldFriends4Sal
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What Makes a Man

07/07/2010 05:33 pm ET Updated May 25, 2011

Download

It's One Big Happy Family season here at This Writer's Life. In celebration of the book's paperback release, I have asked a number of the writers from "One Big Happy Family: 18 Writers Talk About Open Adoption, Mixed Marriage, Polyamory, Househusbandry, Single Motherhood, and Other Realities of Truly Modern Love" to reflect upon how things have changed (or remained the same) in their own lives since they wrote their essays over a year ago. Further, I've also asked various writers I admire to discuss their wild, messy, loving, non-traditional families as well. Below, Mychal Smith talks about his family:

What Makes a Man

by Mychal Smyth

https://www.huffpost.com/...FBbdJeiT7d

My father has been married to my mother for 25 years and they have never separated. He attended my high school graduation and paid for the college degree I have yet to receive. I even know his date of birth and social security number, if I ever decided to steal his identity.

Despite being a constant presence in my life, I have never felt like I really know who my father is.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #2 posted 05/23/19 11:06am

Mumio

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OldFriends4Sale said:

What Makes a Man

07/07/2010 05:33 pm ET Updated May 25, 2011

Download

It's One Big Happy Family season here at This Writer's Life. In celebration of the book's paperback release, I have asked a number of the writers from "One Big Happy Family: 18 Writers Talk About Open Adoption, Mixed Marriage, Polyamory, Househusbandry, Single Motherhood, and Other Realities of Truly Modern Love" to reflect upon how things have changed (or remained the same) in their own lives since they wrote their essays over a year ago. Further, I've also asked various writers I admire to discuss their wild, messy, loving, non-traditional families as well. Below, Mychal Smith talks about his family:

What Makes a Man

by Mychal Smyth

https://www.huffpost.com/...FBbdJeiT7d

My father has been married to my mother for 25 years and they have never separated. He attended my high school graduation and paid for the college degree I have yet to receive. I even know his date of birth and social security number, if I ever decided to steal his identity.

Despite being a constant presence in my life, I have never felt like I really know who my father is.





[Edited 5/23/19 21:55pm]

Welcome to "the org", Mumio…they can have you, but I'll have your love in the end nod
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Reply #3 posted 05/23/19 11:09am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Mumio said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

What Makes a Man

07/07/2010 05:33 pm ET Updated May 25, 2011

Download

It's One Big Happy Family season here at This Writer's Life. In celebration of the book's paperback release, I have asked a number of the writers from "One Big Happy Family: 18 Writers Talk About Open Adoption, Mixed Marriage, Polyamory, Househusbandry, Single Motherhood, and Other Realities of Truly Modern Love" to reflect upon how things have changed (or remained the same) in their own lives since they wrote their essays over a year ago. Further, I've also asked various writers I admire to discuss their wild, messy, loving, non-traditional families as well. Below, Mychal Smith talks about his family:

What Makes a Man

by Mychal Smyth

https://www.huffpost.com/...FBbdJeiT7d

My father has been married to my mother for 25 years and they have never separated. He attended my high school graduation and paid for the college degree I have yet to receive. I even know his date of birth and social security number, if I ever decided to steal his identity.

Despite being a constant presence in my life, I have never felt like I really know who my father is.


It's never too late to make the effort to do this. It's not just on dad but it's on the kids to make the time too.


oops, I should delete that. I'm not talking about Dads/Sons directly lol

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #4 posted 05/23/19 2:44pm

KoolEaze

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I have a book on the lack of male role model and famous people who were raised without a proper male role model and the author analyzes the lives and behavioral patterns of celebrities such as John Lennon, Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul II. and many more and he comes to the conclusion that they were all mentally messed up because they had no real father figures .

Not sure if there´s any basis to that theory and it´s been a long time since the last time I read this book but maybe there´s some truth to it.

However, I don´t think that boys necessarily need their real, biological fathers. I think any positive male role model can be a good father figure.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




http://kooleasehvac.com/
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Reply #5 posted 05/23/19 3:42pm

PennyPurple

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OldFriends4Sale said:

oops, I should delete that. I'm not talking about Dads/Sons directly lol

You are talking about the moms raising the sons, correct?

Maybe the sons get it from the fathers who hit their mothers, of course that's probably the reason there are single mom's raising kids...

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Reply #6 posted 05/23/19 3:49pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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PennyPurple said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

oops, I should delete that. I'm not talking about Dads/Sons directly lol

You are talking about the moms raising the sons, correct?

Maybe the sons get it from the fathers who hit their mothers, of course that's probably the reason there are single mom's raising kids...

Yes. But violence 'physical' isn't something that always come from seeing a father/boyfriend hit the mother.

A lot of single mothers (sometimes as the result of being widows) don't have the father in the picture.


Also men who rape, do not do it because they saw 'daddy raping mommy'

Also the majority of the 'infamous' serial killers/rapists, the mother usually plays a key factor

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 05/23/19 3:51pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Father issues are one thing.

I specifically asked why since they are raised by mothers. What is happening/not happening between the son and mother that he can be violent toward women (physical/rape)

KoolEaze said:

I have a book on the lack of male role model and famous people who were raised without a proper male role model and the author analyzes the lives and behavioral patterns of celebrities such as John Lennon, Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul II. and many more and he comes to the conclusion that they were all mentally messed up because they had no real father figures .

Not sure if there´s any basis to that theory and it´s been a long time since the last time I read this book but maybe there´s some truth to it.

However, I don´t think that boys necessarily need their real, biological fathers. I think any positive male role model can be a good father figure.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #8 posted 05/23/19 4:12pm

KoolEaze

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Volker-Elis-Pilgrim+Mutters%C3%B6hne.jpg

OldFriends4Sale said:

Father issues are one thing.

I specifically asked why since they are raised by mothers. What is happening/not happening between the son and mother that he can be violent toward women (physical/rape)

KoolEaze said:

I have a book on the lack of male role model and famous people who were raised without a proper male role model and the author analyzes the lives and behavioral patterns of celebrities such as John Lennon, Ronald Reagan, Pope John Paul II. and many more and he comes to the conclusion that they were all mentally messed up because they had no real father figures .

Not sure if there´s any basis to that theory and it´s been a long time since the last time I read this book but maybe there´s some truth to it.

However, I don´t think that boys necessarily need their real, biological fathers. I think any positive male role model can be a good father figure.

Maybe I didn´t make it clear enough...the book focuses on why men who were raised mostly by their mothers become violent in later life. John Lennon is one prime example. He is celebrated as this peace loving hippy type of guy but he beat up people, beat women, and neglected his first son and admitted to all of this years later.

I´ll see if I can find that book to see what the author says.

It is not so much about father issues but about why men who were raised mostly by women become violent people later in their lives.

I have looked for English excerpts from that book but to no avail.

I´ll see if I can post a bit more info tomorrow. It´s getting late here.

[Edited 5/23/19 16:15pm]

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




http://kooleasehvac.com/
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Reply #9 posted 05/23/19 4:16pm

OldFriends4Sal
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thanks

KoolEaze said:

Volker-Elis-Pilgrim+Mutters%C3%B6hne.jpg

OldFriends4Sale said:

Father issues are one thing.

I specifically asked why since they are raised by mothers. What is happening/not happening between the son and mother that he can be violent toward women (physical/rape)

Maybe I didn´t make it clear enough...the book focuses on why men who were raised mostly by their mothers become violent in later life. John Lennon is one prime example. He is celebrated as this peace loving hippy type of guy but he beat up people, beat women, and neglected his first son and admitted to all of this years later.

I´ll see if I can find that book to see what the author says.

It is not so much about father issues but about why men who were raised mostly by women become violent people later in their lives.

I have looked for English excerpts from that book but to no avail.

I´ll see if I can post a bit more info tomorrow. It´s getting late here.

[Edited 5/23/19 16:15pm]

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 05/23/19 4:47pm

IanRG

I don't know if it part of the problem (and I emphasise only part, perhaps a small part) is a mother/son issue. I do think part of it is the differences between males and females at a very young age and in how children learn.

.

Please note at all times I am speaking generally and the range of difference between individuals means that this will not apply to many people.

.

The differences between males and females in early vocalisation and social development means that most boys generally learn complex emotive speach and, more importantly, how to use this in social integration slower than most girls. You see this in kindergartens, preschools, child care etc. all around the world. As an example, just as the boy is slowly learning how to socialise, the girls are already forming groups and learning to positively and negatively interact. This, especially the learning to interact negatively and get away with it, often leads to frustation in boys and they lash out - then they get in trouble (rightly) for that from the teacher and may become a target by the socially more adept girls. The boy then joins with the other boys and if they have an issue it is often just resolved quickly with a punch or alike and normally ends there - the boys can then be friends again very soon there after.

.

Then you have the inherited characteristics of gender. I read a study of how boy and girl monkey (I forget which type) learn to gather food or hunt from mother and father respectively. In this it identified that the girls learned from their mother and each girl tended to replicate how their mother did this even if it was different from the other females in the group. The boys, not so much. This would lead to tensions between mother and son and praise between mother and daughter. This trait is genetically reinforced because the girl when she grows up will be relied upon to safely gather and doing this in developed known ways over generations is important for survival. The boys when they grow up will tend to do much more of the hunting style food sourcing activities. Here it is also a genetically reinforced survival skill - hunting relies much less on high levels of attention to detail and process and much more on flexibility of process to repsond to different and changing situations. How much of this applies to humans and especially in a modern society is up for debate but it follows the paragraph above - the girl learns quicker to do things that please the woman training and looking after them and the boy learns differently in a way that relies more on competition, physical reflexes, flexibility on the positive side but can lead to more violence, getting in more trouble etc on the negative side. Before they are old enough to understand, the patterns are already being created so each generation is dealing with the same issue.

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Reply #11 posted 05/23/19 5:05pm

benni

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Don't put this on the mom's. There are quite a few reasons why men engage in domestic violence, or violence against women.

1. Monkey see, monkey do - the majority of domestic violence is the result of men seeing it in the home - whether it is the father beating up the mother, or a boyfriend

2. A change in economic circumstances - Some men may lose a job and if they equate their "manhood" with being able to provide for the woman, they may become frustrated, angry, bitter, and then take that out on the woman - especially if he feels that the woman is "demanding" too much of him
3. Major life changes - a man becomes a father, when he wasn't ready, a close family member gets sick and the man is responsible for taking care of that family member, the loss of a parent or child, any kind of upheaval

4. Some men have sociopathic tendencies - may be diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, have antisocial tendencies
5. And some may be that mom is very authoritarian, she is abusive to the son, she rules the roost, so that when the boy gets out on his own, he decides to be the one in control, and becomes authoritarian. Or mom may be a pushover and the son learns to not respect her, and does not respect women.
6. And we cannot rule out the influence of outside males on the boy. Listening to other boys talk in the locker room, or getting involved with gangs, or trying to emulate a man they look up to.

But it is not always the mom's fault, childhood events, economic changes, major life changes - all of these play into it more than a son being raised by a single mom.

[Edited 5/23/19 17:09pm]

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Reply #12 posted 05/23/19 5:19pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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don't take it personal Benni

some of this might strengthen the issue of pro-choice

.

Usually the discussions revolve around the fathers. People discuss women/daughter issues in relation to their relationship to their fathers usually...
Fathers, be good to your daughters
Daughters will love like you do

.

As I attempted to explain, the discourse between mothers and sons are rarely discussed.
On the org, Prince's relationship with his mother, is one of the only public ones I've read/heard discussed in length, to why he was the way he was
Mama ru listening?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #13 posted 05/23/19 5:37pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

IanRG said:

I don't know if it part of the problem (and I emphasise only part, perhaps a small part) is a mother/son issue. I do think part of it is the differences between males and females at a very young age and in how children learn.

.

Please note at all times I am speaking generally and the range of difference between individuals means that this will not apply to many people.

.

The differences between males and females in early vocalisation and social development means that most boys generally learn complex emotive speach and, more importantly, how to use this in social integration slower than most girls. You see this in kindergartens, preschools, child care etc. all around the world. As an example, just as the boy is slowly learning how to socialise, the girls are already forming groups and learning to positively and negatively interact. This, especially the learning to interact negatively and get away with it, often leads to frustation in boys and they lash out - then they get in trouble (rightly) for that from the teacher and may become a target by the socially more adept girls. The boy then joins with the other boys and if they have an issue it is often just resolved quickly with a punch or alike and normally ends there - the boys can then be friends again very soon there after.

.

Then you have the inherited characteristics of gender. I read a study of how boy and girl monkey (I forget which type) learn to gather food or hunt from mother and father respectively. In this it identified that the girls learned from their mother and each girl tended to replicate how their mother did this even if it was different from the other females in the group. The boys, not so much. This would lead to tensions between mother and son and praise between mother and daughter. This trait is genetically reinforced because the girl when she grows up will be relied upon to safely gather and doing this in developed known ways over generations is important for survival. The boys when they grow up will tend to do much more of the hunting style food sourcing activities. Here it is also a genetically reinforced survival skill - hunting relies much less on high levels of attention to detail and process and much more on flexibility of process to repsond to different and changing situations. How much of this applies to humans and especially in a modern society is up for debate but it follows the paragraph above - the girl learns quicker to do things that please the woman training and looking after them and the boy learns differently in a way that relies more on competition, physical reflexes, flexibility on the positive side but can lead to more violence, getting in more trouble etc on the negative side. Before they are old enough to understand, the patterns are already being created so each generation is dealing with the same issue.





Rebecca brought up this same thing via the illustration of sports.
The nature versus nurture arguement.
There are boys who are not so physically driven(no matter their sexuality) yet most boys do seem to be physically driven(no matter their sexual orientation)




In the introduction, you say that you dislike the idea of having your son play soccer or baseball. Why?

I think you have to come to terms with the kind of child you have. Not every child is a dominator or a competitor designed to be a gladiator in the American cultural marketplace.

But isn't Little League fairly innocuous as masculine pastimes go?

I got my son into it when he was 8 or 9. There was a lot of pressure on the kids, and I couldn't imagine them trying to hold the weight of winning or losing a game. I wanted him to be liked and admired for who he was, not for some identity he felt he had to put on by involving himself in a physically aggressive sport.

But the point of sports is to help boys channel their innate aggression into something more constructive than punching each other out.

I think it's a cop-out to say that boys are biologically determined to be aggressors. Playing sports should not be the mandatory requirement for masculinity. Our definition of masculinity is so limited. Look at male nurses. They devote their lives to healing others but have a hard time being recognized as full men.

A lot of this reminds me of Robert Bly, who started these camps in the 70's where men ran naked through the woods to find their softer, more expressive selves.

What I am doing is nothing new. I am contributing to the work of many men who have been raising these issues. It is very difficult to challenge entrenched values. I was just reading something that said if you let the culture happen to you, you end up fat and broke, in a house full of junk, with no time. If you just sit in front of a television and let it carry you along, without making an effort to resist it or deconstruct it, you really suffer.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 05/23/19 5:40pm

IanRG

benni said:

Don't put this on the mom's. There are quite a few reasons why men engage in domestic violence, or violence against women.

1. Monkey see, monkey do - the majority of domestic violence is the result of men seeing it in the home - whether it is the father beating up the mother, or a boyfriend

2. A change in economic circumstances - Some men may lose a job and if they equate their "manhood" with being able to provide for the woman, they may become frustrated, angry, bitter, and then take that out on the woman - especially if he feels that the woman is "demanding" too much of him
3. Major life changes - a man becomes a father, when he wasn't ready, a close family member gets sick and the man is responsible for taking care of that family member, the loss of a parent or child, any kind of upheaval

4. Some men have sociopathic tendencies - may be diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder, have antisocial tendencies
5. And some may be that mom is very authoritarian, she is abusive to the son, she rules the roost, so that when the boy gets out on his own, he decides to be the one in control, and becomes authoritarian. Or mom may be a pushover and the son learns to not respect her, and does not respect women.
6. And we cannot rule out the influence of outside males on the boy. Listening to other boys talk in the locker room, or getting involved with gangs, or trying to emulate a man they look up to.

But it is not always the mom's fault, childhood events, economic changes, major life changes - all of these play into it more than a son being raised by a single mom.

[Edited 5/23/19 17:09pm]

.

Completely agree: It is a very complex issue and the only person that it should be "put on" is the perpetrator - regardless of gender etc whilst recognising that the clear majority of perpetrators are men.

.

However, to solve it we need to break the different cycles that create it. Just as focusing on where these may involve, say your issue 1, does not mean that this is blaming men or all men, focusing on your issue 5 does not mean this is blaming mums or all mums.

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Reply #15 posted 05/23/19 5:49pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

IanRG said:

I don't know if it part of the problem (and I emphasise only part, perhaps a small part) is a mother/son issue. I do think part of it is the differences between males and females at a very young age and in how children learn.

.

Please note at all times I am speaking generally and the range of difference between individuals means that this will not apply to many people.

.

The differences between males and females in early vocalisation and social development means that most boys generally learn complex emotive speach and, more importantly, how to use this in social integration slower than most girls. You see this in kindergartens, preschools, child care etc. all around the world. As an example, just as the boy is slowly learning how to socialise, the girls are already forming groups and learning to positively and negatively interact. This, especially the learning to interact negatively and get away with it, often leads to frustation in boys and they lash out - then they get in trouble (rightly) for that from the teacher and may become a target by the socially more adept girls. The boy then joins with the other boys and if they have an issue it is often just resolved quickly with a punch or alike and normally ends there - the boys can then be friends again very soon there after.

.

Then you have the inherited characteristics of gender. I read a study of how boy and girl monkey (I forget which type) learn to gather food or hunt from mother and father respectively. In this it identified that the girls learned from their mother and each girl tended to replicate how their mother did this even if it was different from the other females in the group. The boys, not so much. This would lead to tensions between mother and son and praise between mother and daughter. This trait is genetically reinforced because the girl when she grows up will be relied upon to safely gather and doing this in developed known ways over generations is important for survival. The boys when they grow up will tend to do much more of the hunting style food sourcing activities. Here it is also a genetically reinforced survival skill - hunting relies much less on high levels of attention to detail and process and much more on flexibility of process to repsond to different and changing situations. How much of this applies to humans and especially in a modern society is up for debate but it follows the paragraph above - the girl learns quicker to do things that please the woman training and looking after them and the boy learns differently in a way that relies more on competition, physical reflexes, flexibility on the positive side but can lead to more violence, getting in more trouble etc on the negative side. Before they are old enough to understand, the patterns are already being created so each generation is dealing with the same issue.





Rebecca brought up this same thing via the illustration of sports.
The nature versus nurture arguement.
There are boys who are not so physically driven(no matter their sexuality) yet most boys do seem to be physically driven(no matter their sexual orientation)




In the introduction, you say that you dislike the idea of having your son play soccer or baseball. Why?

I think you have to come to terms with the kind of child you have. Not every child is a dominator or a competitor designed to be a gladiator in the American cultural marketplace.

But isn't Little League fairly innocuous as masculine pastimes go?

I got my son into it when he was 8 or 9. There was a lot of pressure on the kids, and I couldn't imagine them trying to hold the weight of winning or losing a game. I wanted him to be liked and admired for who he was, not for some identity he felt he had to put on by involving himself in a physically aggressive sport.

But the point of sports is to help boys channel their innate aggression into something more constructive than punching each other out.

I think it's a cop-out to say that boys are biologically determined to be aggressors. Playing sports should not be the mandatory requirement for masculinity. Our definition of masculinity is so limited. Look at male nurses. They devote their lives to healing others but have a hard time being recognized as full men.

A lot of this reminds me of Robert Bly, who started these camps in the 70's where men ran naked through the woods to find their softer, more expressive selves.

What I am doing is nothing new. I am contributing to the work of many men who have been raising these issues. It is very difficult to challenge entrenched values. I was just reading something that said if you let the culture happen to you, you end up fat and broke, in a house full of junk, with no time. If you just sit in front of a television and let it carry you along, without making an effort to resist it or deconstruct it, you really suffer.

.

And the most aggressively competitive person in our extended family is Julie. She greatly struggled with her daughter, my God Daughter, being a nerd with no interest in soccer (She relented and plays goally). One of my sons played cricket for one season. Why? His brother got a trophy and he wanted one and Cricket means that for half the match you can sit down and listen to music whilst waiting to bat.

.

Plus one of my brothers is a nurse - when he worked in the UK he (and all senior male nurses at the time) was referred to as "Sister".

[Edited 5/23/19 17:51pm]

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Reply #16 posted 05/23/19 8:27pm

benni

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

don't take it personal Benni

some of this might strengthen the issue of pro-choice

.

Usually the discussions revolve around the fathers. People discuss women/daughter issues in relation to their relationship to their fathers usually...
Fathers, be good to your daughters
Daughters will love like you do

.

As I attempted to explain, the discourse between mothers and sons are rarely discussed.
On the org, Prince's relationship with his mother, is one of the only public ones I've read/heard discussed in length, to why he was the way he was
Mama ru listening?


Not taking it personally, OldFriends. I just think that you are focusing on one issue, when this issue is extremely complex.

While I listed several causes of domestic violence, it is usually a mixture of them. Let's say a young boy grows up seeing his mom get beaten. He swears he will never do that to a woman. His mom tries protecting him from the brunt of it. This young boy grows up, becomes a man, gets married. One day, he's had a bad day at work. He comes home and the wife is stressed out, been dealing with the kids all day, trying to get the house cleaned up, one of the kids is sick, the other one senses she is stressed and has been very trying that day. The wife doesn't get everything done because of it. The man, feeling stressed from work, maybe he got reprimanded by his boss that day, hits her because she doesn't have dinner on the table. Afterwards, realizing what he's done, he apologizes profusely. He's just had a bad day, and he realizes she had a bad day, too, and he just "lost it", didn't mean it, he's so sorry. She forgives him, after all he's never done anything like that before. Several months pass and he's the ideal husband, the loving man she'd married, then she finds out she's pregnant again. She must have forgotten to take the pill one day. They had not planned on having any more kids. They really can't afford any more kids. She tells her husband that night she's pregnant, and he "loses it" again. He thinks she set it up, that she must have not taken the pill on purpose. He hits her again, worse this time, hits her a couple of times. Again, apologizes profusely. It's the worry about the money, how are they going to take care of another child? But it starts escalating from there. Every time he is stressed.

So, in that scenario, you have the childhood experiences, you have stress from his job - not necessarily financial at this point, just a lot of stress, then you have a major life change with the addition of another child.

While it would be great to be able to get to the core issue, unfortunately, it's usually several issues that build on top of each other.

Blaming the mother from his childhood is an easy out, but there are too many factors that are usually interplaying with each other to make a man violent toward women.

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Reply #17 posted 05/23/19 8:31pm

PennyPurple

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.

[Edited 5/24/19 7:31am]

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Reply #18 posted 05/23/19 9:09pm

benni

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PennyPurple said:

I've got 2 daughters and 1 son, my son is the middle child. They say that daughters hold a special place in their daddy's heart and sons hold a special place in their momma's heart. That sounds about right. I had more problems raising my daughters then I did raising my son. My girls are mouthy (don't know where they got that from) Hahaha! Son is easy going, kind, giving, so are my daughters but my daughters seem to take their anger out on me, and not their father, my son doesn't take his anger out on either of his parents. In a couple of weeks hubby and I have been married for 35 years, together for 37. My kids grew up with both parents although hubby was a firefighter and he worked 24 hours on and 24 hours off. We raised our children to respect others, my son would never hit a woman and hasn't or been violent with any.


My parents had 3 children, I'm the oldest and I have 2 little brothers. My parent's divorced when I was 12, 1 brother was 9 the other 5. My brothers aren't violent with their wives either. Dad's and daughters are suppose to have a special bond, I didn't so much have a special bond with my dad, in fact if it wasn't for my Step Dad, I wouldn't have had a father figure in my life.


So I don't know what or why some men are violent with women and some men aren't. I don't have the answer. Maybe it's living conditions and what you grew up with. Maybe it's the social standing in society; poor, middle class, rich. Maybe it's the different generations. My grandpa used to beat the shit out of my grandmother they were born in 1920 growing up my grandparents were dirt poor, they lived on farms that had no restroom, they had outhouses, what they ate they grew, canned and killed.


But don't lay the male violence on the mothers. Boy's learn from their dads, how act and how to treat a woman respectfully, also. We also have to remember that as kids we received spankings and these kids today don't. Timeout is the new way and it doesn't do crap. Spankings are violent, but my brothers and I didn't turn out to be violent. Kids these days don't have as much responsibility that I had when growing up. I had to get a job, a car wasn't handed to me, etc.


I don't think any of this has anything to do with pro-choice.



Exactly. And even witnessing abuse in the home doesn't mean you are going to grow up and become violent toward women either. I witnessed that and I went in the opposite direction. I can't spank my kids. I've tried and all 3 of them laughed when I did. I'm afraid of hurting them, so everytime I'd pause. I really am a big wuss. So, I lecture. And I can lecture. 2 hours into a lecture and my oldest son was begging me to spank him just to get it over with. lol

And I have to agree about mothers and daughters. My sons were really easy to raise. They were so laid back and calm. Neither of them ever got snippy with me, never argued with me. The only time they ever got in trouble was like my oldest son was supposed to come in when the street lights came on and one night he didn't come home until almost midnight. I'd been worried sick, been out looking for him, imagined every horrible thing a mother can imagine - that's when I tried to spank him. But my daughter? Oy vay! I always say that when my daughter starts driving, if she doesn't want to stop at a stop sign, she'll argue with that stop sign as to why she should not have to stop. But she's an equal parent opportunity kind of girl, because she will argue with her dad, too. (She's mad at him because he started dating again, is engaged now, and just kind of sprang this woman on her without letting her know that he was dating. I've been trying to work with her, keep telling her that this lady could be a friend to her, someone for her to talk to, especially when she's mad at me and doesn't think she can talk to me. But she's just not happy with dad right now.)

My oldest son witnessed some abuse in the home. His dad could get mean, but I always excused it because he wasn't as mean as my dad. It wasn't until my son was 6 and I apologized to him one time for having to see his dad and I fighting in front of him, and he said, "That's okay mommy, I'm used to it." That was it for me. No child should be used to that. I ended the relationship. Josh has never struck a woman and has always been complimented on how respectful he is to women. He says that was my influence and he appreciates that.

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Reply #19 posted 05/23/19 9:23pm

onlyforaminute

A nature vs nuture debate? I always wonder when I see representation of societies, maybe more tribal like who aren't influenced by a feminist movement or aren't influenced by "modern" psychology who aren't indivdually violent towards their families. There are those communities where there may be violent individuals but the culture as a whole frown on that behavior.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #20 posted 05/24/19 1:41am

IanRG

onlyforaminute said:

A nature vs nuture debate? I always wonder when I see representation of societies, maybe more tribal like who aren't influenced by a feminist movement or aren't influenced by "modern" psychology who aren't indivdually violent towards their families. There are those communities where there may be violent individuals but the culture as a whole frown on that behavior.

.

Just as it is much more complex than being able to say it is one cause over another, one person over another (other than the perpetrator), it is much more complex than nuture vs nature. Nuture and nature and circumstance and ... and ... and ... and all work together in different ways in different people. This is why a trigger that fails to result in violence by the majority can trigger violence in one or few.

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Reply #21 posted 05/24/19 5:19am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

1. If you don't understand or want to take part in this don't

2. No one is blaming 'MOM' don't take it personal, I didn't ask about your family, you're making it too personal

3. You don't understand, that is why you say 'it has nothing to do with 'pro-choice'

PennyPurple said:

I've got 2 daughters and 1 son, my son is the middle child. They say that daughters hold a special place in their daddy's heart and sons hold a special place in their momma's heart. That sounds about right. I had more problems raising my daughters then I did raising my son. My girls are mouthy (don't know where they got that from) Hahaha! Son is easy going, kind, giving, so are my daughters but my daughters seem to take their anger out on me, and not their father, my son doesn't take his anger out on either of his parents. In a couple of weeks hubby and I have been married for 35 years, together for 37. My kids grew up with both parents although hubby was a firefighter and he worked 24 hours on and 24 hours off. We raised our children to respect others, my son would never hit a woman and hasn't or been violent with any.


My parents had 3 children, I'm the oldest and I have 2 little brothers. My parent's divorced when I was 12, 1 brother was 9 the other 5. My brothers aren't violent with their wives either. Dad's and daughters are suppose to have a special bond, I didn't so much have a special bond with my dad, in fact if it wasn't for my Step Dad, I wouldn't have had a father figure in my life.


So I don't know what or why some men are violent with women and some men aren't. I don't have the answer. Maybe it's living conditions and what you grew up with. Maybe it's the social standing in society; poor, middle class, rich. Maybe it's the different generations. My grandpa used to beat the shit out of my grandmother they were born in 1920 growing up my grandparents were dirt poor, they lived on farms that had no restroom, they had outhouses, what they ate they grew, canned and killed.


But don't lay the male violence on the mothers. Boy's learn from their dads, how act and how to treat a woman respectfully, also. We also have to remember that as kids we received spankings and these kids today don't. Timeout is the new way and it doesn't do crap. Spankings are violent, but my brothers and I didn't turn out to be violent. Kids these days don't have as much responsibility that I had when growing up. I had to get a job, a car wasn't handed to me, etc.


I don't think any of this has anything to do with pro-choice.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #22 posted 05/24/19 5:20am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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benni said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

don't take it personal Benni

some of this might strengthen the issue of pro-choice

.

Usually the discussions revolve around the fathers. People discuss women/daughter issues in relation to their relationship to their fathers usually...
Fathers, be good to your daughters
Daughters will love like you do

.

As I attempted to explain, the discourse between mothers and sons are rarely discussed.
On the org, Prince's relationship with his mother, is one of the only public ones I've read/heard discussed in length, to why he was the way he was
Mama ru listening?


Not taking it personally, OldFriends. I just think that you are focusing on one issue, when this issue is extremely complex.

While I listed several causes of domestic violence, it is usually a mixture of them. Let's say a young boy grows up seeing his mom get beaten. He swears he will never do that to a woman. His mom tries protecting him from the brunt of it. This young boy grows up, becomes a man, gets married. One day, he's had a bad day at work. He comes home and the wife is stressed out, been dealing with the kids all day, trying to get the house cleaned up, one of the kids is sick, the other one senses she is stressed and has been very trying that day. The wife doesn't get everything done because of it. The man, feeling stressed from work, maybe he got reprimanded by his boss that day, hits her because she doesn't have dinner on the table. Afterwards, realizing what he's done, he apologizes profusely. He's just had a bad day, and he realizes she had a bad day, too, and he just "lost it", didn't mean it, he's so sorry. She forgives him, after all he's never done anything like that before. Several months pass and he's the ideal husband, the loving man she'd married, then she finds out she's pregnant again. She must have forgotten to take the pill one day. They had not planned on having any more kids. They really can't afford any more kids. She tells her husband that night she's pregnant, and he "loses it" again. He thinks she set it up, that she must have not taken the pill on purpose. He hits her again, worse this time, hits her a couple of times. Again, apologizes profusely. It's the worry about the money, how are they going to take care of another child? But it starts escalating from there. Every time he is stressed.

So, in that scenario, you have the childhood experiences, you have stress from his job - not necessarily financial at this point, just a lot of stress, then you have a major life change with the addition of another child.

While it would be great to be able to get to the core issue, unfortunately, it's usually several issues that build on top of each other.

Blaming the mother from his childhood is an easy out, but there are too many factors that are usually interplaying with each other to make a man violent toward women.

You're a mother, and your reply is personal 'DON"T BLAME THE MOTHERS' I'm not.

.

I totally HEAR everything you said in your post. And I agree with all of it. But there are other dynamics that people don't look at. I'm not looking at everyday mothers here. And I know it is a very 'soul searching' discussion. But as a man with two other brothers raised by a mother(and father) I think it is a valid question and discussion.

.

I'm not taking one side, I'm looking at one side. I clearly stated why I'm looking at this particular side. Father(Child) isssues are always talked about scutinized, dissected. That is one other side.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #23 posted 05/24/19 6:01am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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This is a very politically incorrect answer. I believe many men grow up and look for a female that will replace mom and brought up in single family homes effects this dynamic. You see these grown men with women pumping the gas and they are sitting in the passengers seat and playing on the phone. They just don't grow up and change to be men? Act out like teenagers? On top of the broken mental health system we have, no help as it would be politically incorrect to call these grown boys out for what they become. I work with one and he called his girlfriend to "pick up Wendys on the way home" and he argued for her to stop and buy food. That kind of shit is unheard of in my reality.

What are you outraged about today? CNN has not told you yet?
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Reply #24 posted 05/24/19 7:33am

PennyPurple

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You got it buddy. If I didn't want to take part in this, I wouldn't have hit reply.

Pro choice has nothing to do with the way mothers raise their sons.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1. If you don't understand or want to take part in this don't

2. No one is blaming 'MOM' don't take it personal, I didn't ask about your family, you're making it too personal

3. You don't understand, that is why you say 'it has nothing to do with 'pro-choice'

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Reply #25 posted 05/24/19 7:37am

onlyforaminute

IanRG said:



onlyforaminute said:


A nature vs nuture debate? I always wonder when I see representation of societies, maybe more tribal like who aren't influenced by a feminist movement or aren't influenced by "modern" psychology who aren't indivdually violent towards their families. There are those communities where there may be violent individuals but the culture as a whole frown on that behavior.

.


Just as it is much more complex than being able to say it is one cause over another, one person over another (other than the perpetrator), it is much more complex than nuture vs nature. Nuture and nature and circumstance and ... and ... and ... and all work together in different ways in different people. This is why a trigger that fails to result in violence by the majority can trigger violence in one or few.




We know human nature is complex. But looking at cultures where women are primarily baby making machines as opposed to having a wider function in their society you see more violence towards women naturally. Mothers in those societies tend to mother based on the expectation of whatever society they are in.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #26 posted 05/24/19 7:56am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

You totally miss the premise of my topic Penny, that is why I said you probably don't want to be a part of it. I'm not talking about general mother/son relationships.

PennyPurple said:

You got it buddy. If I didn't want to take part in this, I wouldn't have hit reply.

Pro choice has nothing to do with the way mothers raise their sons.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1. If you don't understand or want to take part in this don't

2. No one is blaming 'MOM' don't take it personal, I didn't ask about your family, you're making it too personal

3. You don't understand, that is why you say 'it has nothing to do with 'pro-choice'

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #27 posted 05/24/19 10:58am

onlyforaminute

I just saw something on the Today show that plays into all of this in a roundabout way. It was concerning the movie Aladdin. Im not sure about the premise of the new movie given our changing views in female ability. It was a vid of a 4yo girl explaining her views on Jasmine not having to wait on Aladdin to show her the world she can do that all by herself. It struck me again that those cultures that insist that women are incapable of doing things on their own accord, exert a lot of energy insisting that their ideals ARE the natural order to things. IMHO, if it were natural one wouldn't have to exert so much energy forcing it to be so. It would just be.
Year of Return 2019
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Reply #28 posted 05/24/19 4:29pm

IanRG

onlyforaminute said:

IanRG said:

.

Just as it is much more complex than being able to say it is one cause over another, one person over another (other than the perpetrator), it is much more complex than nuture vs nature. Nuture and nature and circumstance and ... and ... and ... and all work together in different ways in different people. This is why a trigger that fails to result in violence by the majority can trigger violence in one or few.

We know human nature is complex. But looking at cultures where women are primarily baby making machines as opposed to having a wider function in their society you see more violence towards women naturally. Mothers in those societies tend to mother based on the expectation of whatever society they are in.

.

You are missing my point if you think my reply was that nature is complex. I was specifically stating it is NOT as simple as nature vs nuture - Nature and nuture and so many other things play a part. It is not a binary choice between the two.

.

Is what you are saying right or an assumption? Are there even any societies that see the woman as just a baby making factory? There are/were societies that were many or most women are limited to domestic duties but that is not the same thing. People tend to bring up their children based on what their society expects regardless of whether this is a modern progressive society or a subsistence level nomadic society and everything in between. Acceptance of a traditional role in society is not acceptance of domestic violence. In Indigenous Australia more tribal based people with a proper ABCD Grandmother structure and traditional division of duties have much less domestic violence than those in cities and towns. One of places where the ABCD divsions are ignored and the Grandmothers join together is when they stop domestic violence.

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Reply #29 posted 06/02/19 6:45am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

onlyforaminute said:

I just saw something on the Today show that plays into all of this in a roundabout way. It was concerning the movie Aladdin. Im not sure about the premise of the new movie given our changing views in female ability. It was a vid of a 4yo girl explaining her views on Jasmine not having to wait on Aladdin to show her the world she can do that all by herself. It struck me again that those cultures that insist that women are incapable of doing things on their own accord, exert a lot of energy insisting that their ideals ARE the natural order to things. IMHO, if it were natural one wouldn't have to exert so much energy forcing it to be so. It would just be.

I don't follow? Is there an example of middle eastern mothers treating their sons in such a way that some will/will not commit violent acts against other women?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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