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Reply #120 posted 02/19/19 5:22pm

hausofmoi7

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.
[Edited 2/19/19 17:28pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #121 posted 02/19/19 6:15pm

hausofmoi7

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.
[Edited 2/19/19 18:22pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #122 posted 02/19/19 6:29pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

And there in lies the problem. You cannot condemn your side's violence, even when the source of information about the violence is from your side: Amnesty International, socialist collectives in Venezuela and Alfred de Zayas.

.

The only way to stop the violence (physical or economic) is to condemn it regardless of its political objective and source. You need to stand up for all people, not just your politics at the expense of people.

.

You want to pretend I support the sanctions but you know you are being dishonest by falsely making this claim. I made my postion clear in my first post and you said it was great that I oppose the US intervention from then on it has just been spin, humanitarian-less spin.

Venezuela has sanctions placed on them to stop them from buying or selling. The Bank of England wouldn’t let them withdraw gold they earned from sale of petrol. All this was orchestrated so the u.s and u.k can depict themselves as “white saviours’ As Jawnnn posted even the u.n and other organisations don’t want to be involved with this. Venezuela has assests so just let them trade. They really don’t need you, but you may need them because they have resources you want. .

.

Your point being? We agreed from your response to my first post that sanctions and forced regime are bad -you are just circling around yet again to avoid condeming violence. Having said that, you have demonstrated that you nothing about how the the actual sanctions are being imposed on Venezuela.

.

It is wrong that jawnnn's article said the UN and other organisations do not want be involved - It details what the Red Cross is doing to get more involved, just separately from any strings attached US aid. You are doing this to avoid admitting that Maduro is restricting aid so the Red Cross has to negotiate to seek to provide enough aid - no photo ops, just facts.

.

What you cannot bring yourself to do is condemn the violence by Maduro and Maduro's security forces because you live in a fantasy world that it is only people you are opposed to that can do racists and evil things. You previously sold out the poor blacks in Cuba because of your "soft spot" for their government (your words, not mine). You are doing the same to the Venzeulan people.

.

Put people before idelology and politics.

[Edited 2/19/19 18:31pm]

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Reply #123 posted 02/19/19 6:37pm

hausofmoi7

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IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


And there in lies the problem. You cannot condemn your side's violence, even when the source of information about the violence is from your side: Amnesty International, socialist collectives in Venezuela and Alfred de Zayas.


.


The only way to stop the violence (physical or economic) is to condemn it regardless of its political objective and source. You need to stand up for all people, not just your politics at the expense of people.


.


You want to pretend I support the sanctions but you know you are being dishonest by falsely making this claim. I made my postion clear in my first post and you said it was great that I oppose the US intervention from then on it has just been spin, humanitarian-less spin.



Venezuela has sanctions placed on them to stop them from buying or selling. The Bank of England wouldn’t let them withdraw gold they earned from sale of petrol. All this was orchestrated so the u.s and u.k can depict themselves as “white saviours’ As Jawnnn posted even the u.n and other organisations don’t want to be involved with this. Venezuela has assests so just let them trade. They really don’t need you, but you may need them because they have resources you want. .

.


Your point being? We agreed from your response to my first post that sanctions and forced regime are bad -you are just circling around yet again to avoid condeming violence. Having said that, you have demonstrated that you nothing about how the the actual sanctions are being imposed on Venezuela.


.


It is wrong that jawnnn's article said the UN and other organisations do not want be involved - It details what the Red Cross is doing to get more involved, just separately from any strings attached US aid. You are doing this to avoid admitting that Maduro is restricting aid so the Red Cross has to negotiate to seek to provide enough aid - no phot ops, just facts.


.


What you cannot bring yourself to do is condemn the violence by Maduro and Maduro's security forces because you live in a fantasy world that it is only people you are opposed to that can do racists and evil things. You previously sold out the poor blacks in Cuba because of yiur "soft spot" for their government (your words, not mine). You are doing the same to the Venzeulan people.


.


Put people before idelology and politics.



Did you condemn Theresa May when she used violence to apprehend terrorists?
No you didn’t.
Not sure why people lynching black and mixed race people in the street is different. They are terrorists too.


How about you condemn your people for the situation they are creating instead of trying to act like both sides are wrong here.


Come get your people and take them home.
They’re drunk again.





.
[Edited 2/19/19 22:58pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #124 posted 02/19/19 7:32pm

hausofmoi7

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Western Media Fall in Lockstep for Cheap Trump/Rubio Venezuela Aid PR Stunt

https://fair.org/home/wes...lO3IWBaH3o

The Trump administration’s now completely overt effort to overthrow Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro had a very successful public relations effort this week, as major Western media outlets uniformly echoed its simplistic, pre-packaged claim that the Venezuelan government was heartlessly withholding foreign aid:

All of the above articles—and scores more like it—repeated the same script: Maduro was blocking aid from the US “out of refusal to relinquish power,” preferring to starve “his own people” rather than feed them. It’s a simple case of good and evil—of a tyrannical, paranoid dictator not letting in aid to feed a starving population.

Except three pieces of key context are missing. Context that, when presented to a neutral observer, would severely undermine the cartoonish narrative being advanced by US media.

Both the Red Cross and UN warned the US not to engage in this aid PR stunt.
The bridge in question is a visual metaphor contrived by the Trump administration of little practical relevance.
The person in charge of US operations in Venezuela has a history of using aid as a cover to deliver weapons to right-wing mercenaries.

1)1) Not only has the international aid community not asked for the “aid,” earlier this week, both the International Red Cross and United Nations warned the US to explicitly not engage in these types of PR stunts. As Washington Post contributor Vincent Bevins pointed out, the transparent cynicism of these efforts was preemptively warned about by the groups actually charged with keeping starving people fed:

The International Committee of the Red Cross has warned the United States about the risks of delivering humanitarian aid to Venezuela without the approval of security forces loyal to President Nicolas Maduro.

Indeed, as Bevins also noted, the Red Cross has long been working with local authorities inside Venezuela to deliver relief, and just last week doubled its budget to do so. We have ample evidence the Maduro government is more than willing to work with international aid when it’s offered in good faith, not when it’s a thinly veiled mechanism to spur civil war and contrive PR victories for those seeking to overthrow the government. It’s not just Maduro—as the Western media are presenting it—who opposes the US aid convoy; it’s the UN and Red Cross. Why do none of the above reports note this rather key piece of information, instead giving the reader the impression it’s only the stance of a sadistic, power-hungry madman?
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #125 posted 02/19/19 7:55pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


And there in lies the problem. You cannot condemn your side's violence, even when the source of information about the violence is from your side: Amnesty International, socialist collectives in Venezuela and Alfred de Zayas.


.


The only way to stop the violence (physical or economic) is to condemn it regardless of its political objective and source. You need to stand up for all people, not just your politics at the expense of people.


.


You want to pretend I support the sanctions but you know you are being dishonest by falsely making this claim. I made my postion clear in my first post and you said it was great that I oppose the US intervention from then on it has just been spin, humanitarian-less spin.



Venezuela has sanctions placed on them to stop them from buying or selling. The Bank of England wouldn’t let them withdraw gold they earned from sale of petrol. All this was orchestrated so the u.s and u.k can depict themselves as “white saviours’ As Jawnnn posted even the u.n and other organisations don’t want to be involved with this. Venezuela has assests so just let them trade. They really don’t need you, but you may need them because they have resources you want. .

.


Your point being? We agreed from your response to my first post that sanctions and forced regime are bad -you are just circling around yet again to avoid condeming violence. Having said that, you have demonstrated that you nothing about how the the actual sanctions are being imposed on Venezuela.


.


It is wrong that jawnnn's article said the UN and other organisations do not want be involved - It details what the Red Cross is doing to get more involved, just separately from any strings attached US aid. You are doing this to avoid admitting that Maduro is restricting aid so the Red Cross has to negotiate to seek to provide enough aid - no photo ops, just facts.


.


What you cannot bring yourself to do is condemn the violence by Maduro and Maduro's security forces because you live in a fantasy world that it is only people you are opposed to that can do racists and evil things. You previously sold out the poor blacks in Cuba because of your "soft spot" for their government (your words, not mine). You are doing the same to the Venzeulan people.


.


Put people before idelology and politics.

[Edited 2/19/19 18:31pm]



Except in Venezuela black and indegenious people support this government.
Before this revolution in Venezuela in the late 90’s Black and brown people birth rates and infant mortality were abysmal.

Across the board the situation for black and brown people improved.


When you Consider the rise in birth rates, decline in infant mortality and the general improved conditions for black and brown people it really puts these racial lynchings in perspective.





.
[Edited 2/20/19 3:36am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #126 posted 02/19/19 8:19pm

hausofmoi7

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Not only is it a PR stunt.
It’s a front for shipping weapons


Was a U.S. cargo jet smuggling arms to rebels in Venezuela? These flight patterns sure look weird

https://www.google.com.au...-weird/amp



Venezuela says plane from Miami delivered weapons for use by enemies of Maduro
https://www.google.com.au...49200.html
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #127 posted 02/19/19 8:30pm

hausofmoi7

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The racial conflict in Venezuela

http://www.afrocubaweb.co...7lxcTGCjpk

Venezuela's Bolivarian Revolution from the start enjoyed the suport of of key AfroVenezuelan groups and individuals as well as the much larger mestizo or mixed groups. They all rebelled against the white elites. By contrast, the AfroCuban groups such as the societies of color were not involved in the Cuban Revolution which after winning did its best to remove racism and its consequences. There is more awareness in Venezuela of the role racism plays in driving social conflicts.

In Venezuela, White Supremacy Is a Key Driver of the Coup 2/7/2019 Orinoco Tribune: by Greg Palast - "First, we have Juan Guaidó, self-proclaimed (and Trump-proclaimed) president of the nation, with his wife and child, a photo prominently placed in The New York Times. And here, the class photo of Guaidó’s party members in the National Assembly. They appear, overwhelmingly light-skinned — especially when compared to their political opposites in the third photo, the congress members who support the elected President Nicolás Maduro. This is the story of Venezuela in black and white, the story not told in The New York Times or the rest of our establishment media. This year’s so-called popular uprising is, at its heart, a furious backlash of the whiter (and wealthier) Venezuelans against their replacement by the larger Mestizo (mixed-race) poor. (Forty-four percent of the population that answered the 2014 census listed themselves as “white.”)"

"Racism is one of the main engines and expressions of the current counter-revolution. In Venezuela the revolutionary struggle to end white supremacy and for self-determination is slow, and complicated by white elites, backed by US imperialism, and by the denial of many that racism persists.... Traditionally anti-racist coalitions have ignored Venezuela. It is time we stand in solidarity with the majority of people in Venezuela and voice strong opposition to U.S. – sponsored coups or any intervention on the side of the counter-revolution." -- Racism Sin Vergüenza in the Venezuelan Counter-Revolution 5/27/2014 Venezuelanalysis.com.

This denial that racism persists and the accompanying invisibilty of Black and Indigenous Venezuelans in many otherwise solid progressive articles are an important reason the situation there is not being challenged. #NoMoreSilence. This phenomena holds true across the Americas. It was noticeable in progressive reactions to the election of Trump, an exceptionally out front and charged up proponent of white supremacy, a characteristic his voters viewed as THE primary reason for selecting him. And yet progressives had trouble seeing this and many remain dismissive of identity politics. We can no longer afford this.

It is heartening to see that many Venezuelans are aware of this problem, as you can see in the articles below. This awareness needs to be comunicated across the Americas.

There are many cartoons such as the above one by Kiko Rodriguez. It is one of the more repulsive depictions of Chavez that not only expresses time-worn racist contempt for people of African descent, but also foments hatred by appealing to white fears that have existed since the days of slavery. The title is “Miko Mandante”, meaning “Ape Commander” to mock the affectionate title “Mi Comandante” used by masses of Venezuelan people. Kiko Rodriguez left his birthplace in Cuba for Ecuador in 2000. He won the First Annual Latin American Illustration Competition with this cartoon, which was widely circulated in the private press of Venezuela and other countries (adapted with thanks from Venezuela Analysis, Racism Sin Vergüenza in the Venezuelan Counter-Revolution).

Update for second coup, 2019: The backing by Afro Venezuelans is a strength and in ju jitsu terms a weakness to be exploited by the hard right Opposition - The Invisibility of Protester Deaths in Poor Areas 1/26/2019 Venezuela Analysis. An area of vulnerability tied to leftist invisibilization of Africans - "If that data is analyzed along with allegations in 2017 that young people linked to criminal practices were paid to do what they did in a violent way, it is possible to think that this is a repetition of this tactic by the political opposition. What are being promoted are small concentrations of violence in popular sectors in order to symbolically and materially undermine the main base of support of the government."
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #128 posted 02/20/19 5:58am

jaawwnn

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IanRG said:

jaawwnn said:

.

Come now what?

.

Read your article: I am opposed to aid being restricted by either side and support the International Committee of the Red Cross in seeking to allow more aid than what Maduro is limiting this to by his blocking and without any US strings attached.

.

Read the post you are responding to: It says nothing about me supporting the either side politically, just that my source is neither the political spin by the US or the Venezuelan governments: It is from the full reports by socialists in Venzuela (not the edited version being quoted) and from the full advice by Alfred de Zayas when he worked for the UN on Venzuela. Aid should never be a political bargaining chip and both sides are doing this according to your article: both at the expense of the poor and marginalised just for ideological reasons.

.

Read my other posts here: I have never supported US forced regime change as a solution to violence and failure of the Venzeulan government under Maduro - or pretty much anywhere they have been in the last 50 years.

Ah ok fair enough, I may have misspoken so. Apologies

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Reply #129 posted 02/20/19 6:52am

hausofmoi7

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Regardless of what anyone thinks of the government Venezuelans elected, the fact that the fate of thier democracy depends on us in the west debating and deciding if we agree or not with their choice is paternalistic and racist.

Secondly, all of the Venezuelans government crticism aside they are still far better than Australia’s or America’s governments.
Venezuela society is progressive across the board, socially and politically.
Since the socialist government took power the poor and middle class in Venezuela have made leaps and bounds.
In comparison the poor and middle class in the west have actually fallen back.
irrespective of what you think of Venezuela they are doing better than us at the moment in the west.
And more importantly though even if they weren’t that is no excuse to invade them.

Venezuela can’t invade us just because they are more socially progressive than we are (note: The Iraq war was sold based on the fact they were viewed as less socially progressive than the west.
By comparison America and Australia look like Iraq compared to Venezuela in terms of being socially progressive)


The fact that we even need to debate the decision of Venezuela’s election says it all = arrogance





.
[Edited 2/20/19 7:28am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #130 posted 02/20/19 7:27am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Your point being? We agreed from your response to my first post that sanctions and forced regime are bad -you are just circling around yet again to avoid condeming violence. Having said that, you have demonstrated that you nothing about how the the actual sanctions are being imposed on Venezuela.

.

It is wrong that jawnnn's article said the UN and other organisations do not want be involved - It details what the Red Cross is doing to get more involved, just separately from any strings attached US aid. You are doing this to avoid admitting that Maduro is restricting aid so the Red Cross has to negotiate to seek to provide enough aid - no phot ops, just facts.

.

What you cannot bring yourself to do is condemn the violence by Maduro and Maduro's security forces because you live in a fantasy world that it is only people you are opposed to that can do racists and evil things. You previously sold out the poor blacks in Cuba because of yiur "soft spot" for their government (your words, not mine). You are doing the same to the Venzeulan people.

.

Put people before idelology and politics.

Did you condemn Theresa May when she used violence to apprehend terrorists? No you didn’t. Not sure why people lynching black and mixed race people in the street is different. They are terrorists too. How about you condemn your people for the situation they are creating instead of trying to act like both sides are wrong here. Come get your people and take them home. They’re drunk again. . [Edited 2/19/19 22:58pm]

.

Your argumet makes no sense. You have totally lost it.

.

I note you cannot admit your lie that "the u.n and other organisations don’t want to be involved with this". Such dishonesty is the direct result of being an obsessed ideologue who cannot condemn violence against the poor and marginalised by their side. What has a foreign prime minister policing terrorist bombers without being responsible for 42% of murders in the January 2019 violence got to do with this. Who are my people?

.

It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss what socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis to be nothing more than policing terrorism - The poor and marginalised people in these areas being attacked by the security forces are not all terrorists. That is the type of idealogical thinking that leads to violent extremism.

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Reply #131 posted 02/20/19 7:38am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Your point being? We agreed from your response to my first post that sanctions and forced regime are bad -you are just circling around yet again to avoid condeming violence. Having said that, you have demonstrated that you nothing about how the the actual sanctions are being imposed on Venezuela.

.

It is wrong that jawnnn's article said the UN and other organisations do not want be involved - It details what the Red Cross is doing to get more involved, just separately from any strings attached US aid. You are doing this to avoid admitting that Maduro is restricting aid so the Red Cross has to negotiate to seek to provide enough aid - no photo ops, just facts.

.

What you cannot bring yourself to do is condemn the violence by Maduro and Maduro's security forces because you live in a fantasy world that it is only people you are opposed to that can do racists and evil things. You previously sold out the poor blacks in Cuba because of your "soft spot" for their government (your words, not mine). You are doing the same to the Venzeulan people.

.

Put people before idelology and politics.

[Edited 2/19/19 18:31pm]

Except in Venezuela black and indegenious people support this government. Before this revolution in Venezuela in the late 90’s Black and brown people birth rates and infant mortality were abysmal. Across the board the situation for black and brown people improved. When you Consider the rise in birth rates, decline in infant mortality and the general improved conditions for black and brown people it really puts these racial lynchings in perspective. . [Edited 2/20/19 3:36am]

.

This may have been true back in the 1990s when Chavez was alive and the Maduro's security forces were not, in the words of actual socialists in Venezuela, inflicting "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis". It is not true in 2019.

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Reply #132 posted 02/20/19 8:01am

hausofmoi7

avatar

.
[Edited 2/20/19 8:01am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #133 posted 02/20/19 8:03am

hausofmoi7

avatar

.
[Edited 2/20/19 8:04am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #134 posted 02/20/19 8:11am

hausofmoi7

avatar

.
[Edited 2/20/19 8:17am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #135 posted 02/20/19 8:15am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

This may have been true back in the 1990s when Chavez was alive and the Maduro's security forces were not, in the words of actual socialists in Venezuela, inflicting "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis". It is not true in 2019.

More Australians hate the government here than the people in Venezuela hate theirs. Fact

.

Violence is not deplorable if done in line extremist political views - hausofmoi7 "fact".

.

How many refugees from Australia are there compared to from Venezuela? How many people were killed by Turnbull's plus Abbott's plus Rudd's plus Gilliard's security forces?

.

You can keep on ignoring what Amnesty International, socialist collectives and Alfred de Zayas are saying about the violence by Maduro's security forces, but you know it is a lie. Even your new guy, Vincent Bevins said to distance himself from Maduro's violence: "Of course I don't mean that as a defense of Maduro's government or his actions".

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Reply #136 posted 02/20/19 8:23am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Your argumet makes no sense. You have totally lost it.

.

I note you cannot admit your lie that "the u.n and other organisations don’t want to be involved with this". Such dishonesty is the direct result of being an obsessed ideologue who cannot condemn violence against the poor and marginalised by their side. What has a foreign prime minister policing terrorist bombers without being responsible for 42% of murders in the January 2019 violence got to do with this. Who are my people?

.

It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss what socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis to be nothing more than policing terrorism - The poor and marginalised people in these areas being attacked by the security forces are not all terrorists. That is the type of idealogical thinking that leads to violent extremism.

Your arrogance and racist paternalism on world affairs is dangerous. Chill out on Venezuela and go sort out Pauline Hanson - you got actual problems to sort out. .. . [Edited 2/20/19 8:12am]

.

Nothing I have said is racist, that is a lie - It is you who cannot comdemn the racist violence by Maduro's security forces. I have comdemned the violence by the far right and the far left - you have not. You have sold out the poor and marginalised in Venezuela just because you cannot find any fault as a result of your extremist ideological bias.

.

You are not from Venezuela, so get off your holier than thou high horse. You are arrogantly and evilly dismissing racist and classist violence in Venezuela, just as you did with your inability to condemn physical and economic violence against the blacks in Cuba.

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Reply #137 posted 02/20/19 8:27am

hausofmoi7

avatar

The video of the incident—which shows an anti-government protester throwing accelerant on the man, who then bursts into flames and runs down the street as other protesters, rather than help douse the fire, let him burn—is horrific. It obviously doesn’t fit the narrative of brave, virtuous, democratic activists facing down a tyrannical government. News wires have a curious framing: They decided that the point of the story isn’t “opposition protesters on Sunday set a man on fire” but rather “Maduro excoriated opposition protesters on Sunday for setting a man on fire.” Choose the correct lede, and you too can become a foreign correspondent: Man sets off bomb outside arena; or: Theresa May excoriates man for setting bomb off outside arena?



https://www.thenation.com...venezuela/
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #138 posted 02/20/19 8:39am

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


Your argumet makes no sense. You have totally lost it.


.


I note you cannot admit your lie that "the u.n and other organisations don’t want to be involved with this". Such dishonesty is the direct result of being an obsessed ideologue who cannot condemn violence against the poor and marginalised by their side. What has a foreign prime minister policing terrorist bombers without being responsible for 42% of murders in the January 2019 violence got to do with this. Who are my people?


.


It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss what socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis to be nothing more than policing terrorism - The poor and marginalised people in these areas being attacked by the security forces are not all terrorists. That is the type of idealogical thinking that leads to violent extremism.



Your arrogance and racist paternalism on world affairs is dangerous. Chill out on Venezuela and go sort out Pauline Hanson - you got actual problems to sort out. .. . [Edited 2/20/19 8:12am]

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Nothing I have said is racist, that is a lie - It is you who cannot comdemn the racist violence by Maduro's security forces. I have comdemned the violence by the far right and the far left - you have not. You have sold out the poor and marginalised in Venezuela just because you cannot find any fault as a result of your extremist ideological bias.


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You are not from Venezuela, so get off your holier than thou high horse. You are arrogantly and evilly dismissing racist and classist violence in Venezuela, just as you did with your inability to condemn physical and economic violence against the blacks in Cuba.


Everything you said is completely racist.
Who do you think you are?
Go sort out your racist country that doesn’t even give two damns about its indegenious population.
Venezuela has seen an increase in birth rates for indegenious population.
In Australia it is declining.

You could learn something from Venezuela perhaps?
You need the help fast.


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[Edited 2/20/19 8:40am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #139 posted 02/20/19 8:40am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

The video of the incident—which shows an anti-government protester throwing accelerant on the man, who then bursts into flames and runs down the street as other protesters, rather than help douse the fire, let him burn—is horrific. It obviously doesn’t fit the narrative of brave, virtuous, democratic activists facing down a tyrannical government. News wires have a curious framing: They decided that the point of the story isn’t “opposition protesters on Sunday set a man on fire” but rather “Maduro excoriated opposition protesters on Sunday for setting a man on fire.” Choose the correct lede, and you too can become a foreign correspondent: Man sets off bomb outside arena; or: Theresa May excoriates man for setting bomb off outside arena? https://www.thenation.com...venezuela/

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That is 2017 and I have condemned it. the topic YOU chose was about 2019 when the socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are following "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis.

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Listen it Amnesty International in 2019, listen to the socialist collectives in Venezuela in 2019, listen to the Red Cross in 2019, listen to Alfred de Zayas in 2019, listen to Vincent Bevins in 2019.

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Reply #140 posted 02/20/19 8:42am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

This is one issue where I say fuck the US. They have been pulling this shit for way too long. A great deal of the problems facing Venezuela has been CAUSED by the US. The sanctions and what not. Same with Iran. Same with Cuba. Same with North Korea.
Fuck the US on where it comes to Iran, Venezuela, North Korea and Cuba. Fuck both democrats and republicans who support more sanctions or military intervention. WE CREATED THE PROBLEM. And who pays for it all, just the regular folks on the street who have no say in this political bullshit.

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Reply #141 posted 02/20/19 8:43am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

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Nothing I have said is racist, that is a lie - It is you who cannot comdemn the racist violence by Maduro's security forces. I have comdemned the violence by the far right and the far left - you have not. You have sold out the poor and marginalised in Venezuela just because you cannot find any fault as a result of your extremist ideological bias.

.

You are not from Venezuela, so get off your holier than thou high horse. You are arrogantly and evilly dismissing racist and classist violence in Venezuela, just as you did with your inability to condemn physical and economic violence against the blacks in Cuba.

Everything you said is completely racist. Who do you think you are? Go sort out your racist country that doesn’t even give two damns about its indegenious population. Venezuela has seen an increase in birth rates for indegenious population. In Australia it is declining. You could learn something from Venezuela perhaps? You need the help fast. . [Edited 2/20/19 8:40am]

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Not one thing I have said is racist - that is lie. It is offensive. It is a cowardly and ineffective argument.

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Recognising human rights abuses in Venezuela does not mean I don't recognise human rights abuses anywhere else including Australia.

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Reply #142 posted 02/20/19 8:44am

hausofmoi7

avatar

https://www.lantidiplomat...496_27100/


Interview with Alfred De Zayas

Sir, you went personally to Venezuela on behalf of the UN last year. What is the situation in the country?


I am the first and only UN rapporteur to have visited Venezuela in 21 years. I have opened the door for other rapporteurs and even for the new UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, who was officially invited in December. My visit lasted from 26 November to 5 December2017. I met with members of the National Assembly, chamber of commerce, diplomatic corps, opposition groups, non-governmental organizations, church leaders, professors university students.
There was no "humanitarian crisis", as confirmed to me by FAO and CEPAL // nothing to compare with Gaza, Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Central AfricanRepublic, etc. But indeed there was scarcity of foods and medicines. The situation has gotten much worse since Dec. 2017 because of Trumps sanctions and the economic and financial blockade.


What are the effects of the unilateral sanctions of Us and European Union for th the economy of the country and for the Venezuelan population?


the economic war is asphyxiating the country, causing much suffering amongst the most vulnerable. As I wrote in my report to the Human Rights Coouncil, sanctions kill. The government has met increased difficulty in obtaining insulin, anti/malaria medicine, anti/retroviral drugs etc. The distribution chains have also been disrupted by the internal war being conducted by the opposition. Most of the economy is still in the private sector and there have been numerous instances of hoarding, whereby foods and medicines are not distributed to supermarkets and pharmacies, but stored and then released into the black market. To the extent that people have died of malnutrition of lack of dialysis and other medical services as a result of the sanctions, this raises issues of civil and criminal liability by the countries that impose the sanctions, knowing they will cause death. It is premeditated homicide. It is not just collateral damage


Is Venezuela really in a “humanitarian crisis”, as mainstream media say in unified networks every day?


Humanitarian crisis is a hyperbole. Of course there is scarcity but the cause is in the concerted effort by the US,Canada,EU to cause chaos in Venezuela, expecting that the government will fall.


The level of machiavellism and cynicism is breathtaking. Besides, the term "humanitarian crisis"is a short/cut to humanitarian intervention // of course military intervention to impose regime change.


How do you judge the decision of the European Union and the United Nations to not present themselves as observers in the early elections requested by the opposition of May 20, 2018 despite a formal invitation from the Caracas government?


Bad faith. But there were other international observers //notably the CEELA// the oldest and most established monitoring organization in Latin America. I can send you their final report on the 20 May elections which were under the Venezuelan Constitution both legal and legitimate and more than 9 million Venezuelans (47% participated). The opposition partie MUD and Voluntad Popular boycotted, but other opposition leaders garnered 32% of the vote //Henri Falcon 21 % and Bertucci 11% . Maduro received 68% if the ballots cast.
[Edited 2/20/19 8:53am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #143 posted 02/20/19 8:50am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

https://www.lantidiplomat...496_27100/ Sir, you went personally to Venezuela on behalf of the UN last year. What is the situation in the country? I am the first and only UN rapporteur to have visited Venezuela in 21 years. I have opened the door for other rapporteurs and even for the new UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, who was officially invited in December. My visit lasted from 26 November to 5 December2017. I met with members of the National Assembly, chamber of commerce, diplomatic corps, opposition groups, non-governmental organizations, church leaders, professors university students. There was no "humanitarian crisis", as confirmed to me by FAO and CEPAL // nothing to compare with Gaza, Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Central AfricanRepublic, etc. But indeed there was scarcity of foods and medicines. The situation has gotten much worse since Dec. 2017 because of Trumps sanctions and the economic and financial blockade. What are the effects of the unilateral sanctions of Us and European Union for th the economy of the country and for the Venezuelan population? the economic war is asphyxiating the country, causing much suffering amongst the most vulnerable. As I wrote in my report to the Human Rights Coouncil, sanctions kill. The government has met increased difficulty in obtaining insulin, anti/malaria medicine, anti/retroviral drugs etc. The distribution chains have also been disrupted by the internal war being conducted by the opposition. Most of the economy is still in the private sector and there have been numerous instances of hoarding, whereby foods and medicines are not distributed to supermarkets and pharmacies, but stored and then released into the black market. To the extent that people have died of malnutrition of lack of dialysis and other medical services as a result of the sanctions, this raises issues of civil and criminal liability by the countries that impose the sanctions, knowing they will cause death. It is premeditated homicide. It is not just collateral damage Is Venezuela really in a “humanitarian crisis”, as mainstream media say in unified networks every day? Humanitarian crisis is a hyperbole. Of course there is scarcity but the cause is in the concerted effort by the US,Canada,EU to cause chaos in Venezuela, expecting that the government will fall. The level of machiavellism and cynicism is breathtaking. Besides, the term "humanitarian crisis"is a short/cut to humanitarian intervention // of course military intervention to impose regime change. How do you judge the decision of the European Union and the United Nations to not present themselves as observers in the early elections requested by the opposition of May 20, 2018 despite a formal invitation from the Caracas government? Bad faith. But there were other international observers //notably the CEELA// the oldest and most established monitoring organization in Latin America. I can send you their final report on the 20 May elections which were under the Venezuelan Constitution both legal and legitimate and more than 9 million Venezuelans (47% participated). The opposition partie MUD and Voluntad Popular boycotted, but other opposition leaders garnered 32% of the vote //Henri Falcon 21 % and Bertucci 11% . Maduro received 68% if the ballots cast.

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You already posted about Alfred de Zayas' views on the Sanctions and we have agreed FROM MY VERY FIRST POST. What you cannot bring yourself to post about is the other 6 areas that Alfred de Zayas reported to the Venzuelan Government that they need to address:

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As a result of his visit (yet again prior to 2019) he gave preliminary recomendations to the Venezuelan foreign minister saying:

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1. The price controls need to be eliminated - the financial crisis including the hyperinflation is a result of the breakdown of pricing

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2. The economic system is breaking down due to smuggling to circumvent the price fixing and government corruption. This needs to be fought against - but not the way it was being fought against. It should be fought against within the the rule of law.

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3 The Venezuelan government needs to respect the UN covenants on civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights. He did recognise Maduro was at that time seeking dialogue with the opposition and showing commendable flexibility and patience. However, in 2019 this has since broken down.

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4 Maduro should either release individuals who have been imprisoned for political reasons, or take them to court with a fair trial.

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5 The mismanagement of the country is because it is reliant on ideologists but it needs technocrats, not only ideologists.

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6 The Maduro goverment needs to start taking human rights abuses seriously. It must stop government corruption at all levels. It should seek help from the UN especially the UN Office on Drugs and Crime in Vienna. In doing so, UN organizations, such as the World Health Organization, the FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization), the International Labor Organization (ILO), etc. could help to ensure that the necessary improvements are translated into action.

.

Still no condemnation for the violence by the Maduro security forces and supporters in the mistaken belief that it must be all from the otherside? You need to listen to the real socialists seeking to help the poor and marginalised in Venezuela.

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Reply #144 posted 02/20/19 8:54am

hausofmoi7

avatar

.
[Edited 2/20/19 9:00am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #145 posted 02/20/19 8:59am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

You dont need to address Venezuela, that is racist. [Edited 2/20/19 8:55am]

.

That is a copout - You are not from Venezuela either and your thread is to address Venezuela. There is absolutely nothing racist about seeking to stop the racists based violence by Maduro's security forces:

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It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss when socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis

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Reply #146 posted 02/20/19 9:02am

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


You dont need to address Venezuela, that is racist. [Edited 2/20/19 8:55am]

.


That is a copout - You are not from Venezuela either and your thread is to address Venezuela. There is absolutely nothing racist about seeking to stop the racists based violence by Maduro's security forces:


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It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss when socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis



Not true.
I have spoken to people from Venezuela.
You are lying, or at least misinformed.


You just need to oppose war Ian.
End of story.


Go sort Australian politics, it needs more help than Venezuela.
Otherwise you sound very racist giving out a list a conditions for the elected government of Venezuela.
It’s not up to you.





.





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[Edited 2/20/19 9:09am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #147 posted 02/20/19 9:08am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

That is a copout - You are not from Venezuela either and your thread is to address Venezuela. There is absolutely nothing racist about seeking to stop the racists based violence by Maduro's security forces:

.

It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss when socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis

Not true. I have spoken to people from Venezuela.

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True. Speaking to supporters of Maduro does not mean you are speaking to the right people:

SurGentes is a human rights collective that for the last four years has been working with popular organisations in San Agustin del Sur, Venezuela and elsewhere. This includes a group of women in the collective who do the direct work in the poor quarter, and they do it with a lot of passion and revolutionary spirit. Here is what SurGentes is saying about the at least 28 deaths just in three days last month (21-24 Jan):

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3. With the available data, it is possible to identify some irregularities in the demonstrations that occurred between January 21 and 24, 2019 and their public control:

  • At least 38 percent of the protests were violent and 28.5 percent of them saw confrontations with security forces, with firearms and blunt objects used. One of the people killed is a Second Sergeant of the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB) and two members of this organisation were beaten by protesters in Chacao (east Caracas), constituting a lynching attempt, with their motorcycles being burned. There are several security officials wounded and several government offices in different parts of the country have been burned.

  • In 42.8 percent of the cases, it is alleged that the action of state security forces was responsible for the killings. The Bolivarian National Police (in particular its special forces command, FAES) is the body most denounced, followed by the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB). In the rest of the cases, information is lacking about the possible perpetrators or civilians who have been accused (business owners who defend their property and committed killings, civilian supporters of the government or pro-opposition protesters).

  • Almost all of these deaths occurred in poor areas.

  • The high number of protester deaths (both in peaceful and violent protests) indicates that security forces have departed from progressive and differential standards of the use of force.

  • We have seen direct testimony concerning police actions following the protests, where the FAES has illegally entered homes, threatened and abused people.

4. The background of repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis.

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This group stated in point 1 that the claim by the member of the national assembly to be "president" is illegal, so they are not supporters of that side either - they are socialists putting people before politics. You can deny it and refuse to condemn it, but that is your arrogance and racism.

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Reply #148 posted 02/20/19 9:18am

hausofmoi7

avatar

I spoke to an indegenious Venezuelan organiser who works in Australia with the Australian indegenious community.
Im more inclined to believe them than you.




.
[Edited 2/20/19 9:21am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #149 posted 02/20/19 9:20am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

That is a copout - You are not from Venezuela either and your thread is to address Venezuela. There is absolutely nothing racist about seeking to stop the racists based violence by Maduro's security forces:

.

It is absolutely racist, classists and apauling beyond belief that you would dismiss when socialists in Venezuela are saying Maduro's security force's actions are "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis

Not true. I have spoken to people from Venezuela. You are lying, or at least misinformed. You just need to oppose war Ian. End of story. Go sort Australian politics, it needs more help than Venezuela. Otherwise you sound very racist giving out a list a conditions for the elected government of Venezuela. It’s not up to you. . . [Edited 2/20/19 9:09am]

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It is you who is misinformed - I have shown so many of your sources as selective and incomplete.

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I oppose violence and war from all sides - you do not if it is by your ideological side.

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There is nothing racist about a person from Australia discussing Venezuela whilst recognising Australia's failings. Nothing I have said sounds racist - you, on the other hand, have openly stated you cannot condemn Cuba for its physical and economic violence against the poorest black people in Cuba because you have a soft spot for its government. You seek to deny the racism in Maduro's actions being reported by Venezuelan socialists actually working in Venezuela on the lie that you know what is occuring their because you have "spoken" to people.

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PS the list is from Alfred de Zayas, not me. It is recognition of the human rights abuses by the Maduro government and security forces, the corruption and the failure of it economic system exacerbated by the sanctions. Is de Zayas being racist? If so why are you quoting him?

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