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Thread started 01/26/19 3:29am

hausofmoi7

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Venezuela - Sanctions and blockade continue as U.S now attempts a coup

The U.S have been unable to sway the Venezuelan people even after years of ruthless sanctions targeting them. The u.s had hoped that the effects of the sanctions would cause the people to vote for the opposition instead.

It hasn’t worked. the u.s are now intensifying a coup attempt.

Venezuela: Call It What It Is—a Coup


https://www.thenation.com...do-maduro/


No matter how you slice it, an attempted coup is underway in Venezuela. Here are the basics: On Wednesday, Juan Guaidó, a relatively unknown second-string politician from the right-wing Popular Will party, simply declared himself acting president. Guaidó was not elected president—Nicolás Maduro was, in May of last year in a vote that the opposition might have won had they not boycotted it. Guaidó was elected to the opposition-controlled National Assembly, recently assuming the Assembly presidency through an informal power-sharing agreement among the opposition’s political parties. One poll even suggests that as recently as a week ago, more than 80 percent of Venezuelans had no idea who Guaidó even was.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #1 posted 01/26/19 6:20am

2freaky4church
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Funny how they say Maduro put cronies in Supreme Court. All Presidents put who they like in courts. lol Yea, Maduro should pick an opposition leader so that they can undermine Bolivarian socialism.

By the way Norway and Sweden have more state created business

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #2 posted 01/26/19 8:45am

NorthC

I hope for the good of everybody in Venezuela and especially the millions of refugees that Maduro will be thrown out. Not sure about this Guaido, but anything is better than that incompetent brute that has ruined his own country. It's going to take a lot of work to build it up again. But, as Hausofmoi said, the military still supports Maduro because it's in their own interest. They make money from all the smuggling and corruption they're involved in.
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Reply #3 posted 01/26/19 9:22am

OnlyNDaUsa

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The people of Venezuela need someone to take over and try to save them. Chavez and those villains that came after failed and have driven the country to ruin... socialism always fails.

Social programs are fine...but to fund them there MUST be a robust free market from which to draw said funding. Saddy it tends to disincentivize effort and rewards poor choices.

and these fools that think a zero skill should get $15 an hour? No! That can have one and only one outcome... the devaluation of a dollar. Period. No Debate.

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #4 posted 01/26/19 9:23am

2freaky4church
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North C, your shocking hate of democracy.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #5 posted 01/26/19 9:58am

OnlyNDaUsa

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2freaky4church1 said:

North C, your shocking hate of democracy.

Democracy is a horrible idea... at least on any large scale... it is mob rule and will ALWAYS collapse into an oligarchy.

But is Venezuela a Democracy? I think NOT... I think it is and has been an oligarchy for a long time... and thus its collapse.

Are you confusing hoax elections with any form of democracy or republic

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #6 posted 01/26/19 4:04pm

hausofmoi7

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OnlyNDaUsa said:



2freaky4church1 said:


North C, your shocking hate of democracy.





Democracy is a horrible idea...


You and North C have made that very clear.
Both your responses sum up the issue here.

An election can not be called “illegitimate” just because you don’t like the result.

Every election since Hugo Chavez has been called illegitimate.



.
[Edited 1/26/19 16:11pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #7 posted 01/26/19 7:46pm

hausofmoi7

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2freaky4church1 said:

Funny how they say Maduro put cronies in Supreme Court. All Presidents put who they like in courts. lol Yea, Maduro should pick an opposition leader so that they can undermine Bolivarian socialism.



By the way Norway and Sweden have more state created business



Ok.
If that’s true then basically Trump is threatening to send the u.s military to take out Bernie Sanders.

They are sanctioning a country because they elected a government that is a more progressive version of the Democratic Party.




.
[Edited 1/27/19 2:14am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #8 posted 01/27/19 1:39am

NorthC

Just because a country has elections doesn't make it a democracy. Democracy also involves a free press, free opposition and an army that doesn't shoot at demonstrators.
This crisis has caused millions of refugees, which put a heavy pressure on neighnouring countries, including the Dutch Antilles, which are very close to the South American mainland. This isn't a national crisis, it's an international crisis and nothing will change as long as Maduro is in power. Latest news is that European countries are also supporting Guaido and calling for new elections.
[Edited 1/27/19 1:39am]
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Reply #9 posted 01/27/19 2:50am

nd33

OnlyNDaUsa said:

The people of Venezuela need someone to take over and try to save them. Chavez and those villains that came after failed and have driven the country to ruin... socialism always fails.

Social programs are fine...but to fund them there MUST be a robust free market from which to draw said funding. Saddy it tends to disincentivize effort and rewards poor choices.

and these fools that think a zero skill should get $15 an hour? No! That can have one and only one outcome... the devaluation of a dollar. Period. No Debate.



No. The US lead sanctions and economic warfare have driven Venezuela to ruin. We have no clue whether their socialist policies would have continued to be successful, because of US meddling.

The people of the world need someone to take over the US government, so other countries can control their own destiny. Perhaps Putin? You don’t find Russia building military bases all over the world and he supports the lifting of sanctions on Venezuela. What you reckon? Time for a drastic change in the US?
Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #10 posted 01/27/19 3:01am

deebee

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NorthC said:

Latest news is that European countries political elites are also supporting Guaido American imperial power and calling for new elections governments overseas that strongly favour the interests of U.S. capital.

Fixed it for ya! razz

In all seriousness, though, it is a democracy and a democratically-elected government. It's a slippery slope when you start second-guessing that in favour of Western-backed manoeuvres to install puppet regimes - who, it bears noting, have been quick to curtail liberties and unleash violence in the past, e.g. in Chile, Nicaragua, Argentina, etc - though they did so whilst sportingly allowing Western businesses to fill their pockets.

Lots of problems with Venezuela's political and economic institutions, I agree, and there's a genuine crisis now, which needs solving. But I don't think we should buy into the notion that a coup will help anything, or that the intentions of those touting it have anything to do with the interests of ordinary Venezuelans. Likewise, let's not overestimate the capacity of the imperial powers that brought us chaos in Iraq, Libya and elsewhere to deliver a rosy future for local populations in the countries they bring into their sphere of influence.

[Edited 1/27/19 5:06am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #11 posted 01/27/19 5:30am

NorthC

That's what I said in my first post: I'm not sure if this Guaido is any better. But the crisis won't be solved as long as Maduro is in power and it's not the fault of the US: it's the fault of the economic policy of the Chavista regime, which led to nepotism (how else could Maduro become a presidential candidate anyway?) and corruption. Not that that didn't exist before and the good thing about Chavez is that he at least tried to let the poor benefit from Venezuela's riches, but it's led to the crisis we're seeing now.
And as for democratically elected, that doesn't give you the right to open fire at demonstrators, throw opposition leaders in jail and cause millions of people to flee from their homes. The only way out of this mess is through international cooperation (so the refugees can return) and that's not going to happen with Maduro in power. Only Russia and China, oh sorry, political elites in Russia and China still back him. Not the countries I'd like to see together...
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Reply #12 posted 01/27/19 6:31am

deebee

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NorthC said:

That's what I said in my first post: I'm not sure if this Guaido is any better. But the crisis won't be solved as long as Maduro is in power and it's not the fault of the US: it's the fault of the economic policy of the Chavista regime, which led to nepotism (how else could Maduro become a presidential candidate anyway?) and corruption. Not that that didn't exist before and the good thing about Chavez is that he at least tried to let the poor benefit from Venezuela's riches, but it's led to the crisis we're seeing now. And as for democratically elected, that doesn't give you the right to open fire at demonstrators, throw opposition leaders in jail and cause millions of people to flee from their homes. The only way out of this mess is through international cooperation (so the refugees can return) and that's not going to happen with Maduro in power. Only Russia and China, oh sorry, political elites in Russia and China still back him. Not the countries I'd like to see together...

I think the present crisis has emerged from tendencies that were there under Chavez, and the difference is not to do with any difference in personality between him and Maduro. The 'Bolivarian turn' was based on sustaining a capitalist economy based on oil exports, whilst funding social programmes out of the proceeds. In its heyday, that meant the big bods in the oil businessess got rich, and some in government got their cut too (which is why socialism must be based on more than mere nationalisation of capitalist industries), though poor people also benefitted. However, the Venezuelan economy was still i) fundamentally capitalist and ii) dependent on a single commodity. The problem was that then the price of oil on the global market collapsed, and the whole balancing act could no longer function.

I don't see that those backing the coup have a solution to that; certainly not one that will benefit the Venezuelan poor. US-led institutions like the IMF have been perfectly willing to reshape economies so that they are dependent on single commodities, in the past, as long as capital could get in and profit. And as long as client governments agreed to slash social spending that might have made poor people less desperate for a job picking bananas, stitching sneakers, or whatever it was, or able to command a higher wage - so I don't see the cavalry of ostensible democracy-lovers doing anything about that.

I've no desire to see Russia or China become the masters of Venezuela either, but I'm of the opinion that global powers behave in more or less similar ways in the international arena, despite the differences in PR, with little regard for the niceties of democracy and sovereignty - so I don't draw a line between 'goodies' and 'baddies'. If anything, China has been slightly better on that score, and hasn't demanded ideologically-driven economic reform in African countries in return for investment, as the US has. I'm certainly too long-in-the-tooth to believe that because my government spills a few fine words on the matter, that that means noble plans are afoot and just outcomes are but a drone strike away.

[Edited 1/27/19 6:48am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #13 posted 01/27/19 6:48am

nd33

deebee said:



NorthC said:


That's what I said in my first post: I'm not sure if this Guaido is any better. But the crisis won't be solved as long as Maduro is in power and it's not the fault of the US: it's the fault of the economic policy of the Chavista regime, which led to nepotism (how else could Maduro become a presidential candidate anyway?) and corruption. Not that that didn't exist before and the good thing about Chavez is that he at least tried to let the poor benefit from Venezuela's riches, but it's led to the crisis we're seeing now. And as for democratically elected, that doesn't give you the right to open fire at demonstrators, throw opposition leaders in jail and cause millions of people to flee from their homes. The only way out of this mess is through international cooperation (so the refugees can return) and that's not going to happen with Maduro in power. Only Russia and China, oh sorry, political elites in Russia and China still back him. Not the countries I'd like to see together...

I think the present crisis has emerged from tendencies that were there under Chavez, and the difference is not to do with any difference in personality between him and Maduro. The 'Bolivarian turn' was based on sustaining a capitalist economy based on oil exports, whilst funding social programmes out of the proceeds. In its heyday, that meant the big bods in the oil businessess got rich, and some in government got their cut too (which is why socialism must be based on more than mere nationalisation of capitalist industries), though poor people also benefitted. However, the Venezuelan economy was still i) fundamentally capitalist and ii) dependent on a single commodity. The problem was that then the price of oil on the global market collapsed, and the whole balancing act could no longer function.

I don't see that those backing the coup have a solution to that; certainly not one that will benefit the Venezuelan poor. US-led institutions like the IMF have been perfectly willing to reshape economies so that they are dependent on single commodities, in the past, as long as capital could get in and profit. And as long as client governments agreed to slash social spending that might have made poor people were less desperate for a job picking bananas or whatever it was, or able to command a higher wage - so I don't see the cavalry of ostensible democracy-lovers doing anything about that.

I've no desire to see Russia or China become the masters of Venezuela either, but I'm of the opinion that global powers behave in more or less similar ways in the international arena, despite the differences in PR, with little regard for the niceties of democracy and autonomy - so I don't draw a line between 'goodies' and 'baddies'. If anything, China has been slightly better on that score, and hasn't demanded ideologically-driven economic reform in African countries in return for investment, as the US has. I'm certainly too long-in-the-tooth to believe that because my government spills a few fine words on the matter, that that means noble plans are afoot and just outcomes are but a drone strike away.



Yup. But I doubt the, oil price drop has has as much effect as the sanctions and economic embargoes. They’d probably still be functioning if they were only dealing with oil price drop, because their supplies are abundant.
Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #14 posted 01/27/19 6:49am

NorthC

True, a regime change won't change Venezuela's dependency on oil and we don't know much about this Guaido, but it might normalize relationships with neighbouring countries and stop the oppression and allow refugees to go home- that would be a big step forward. And hopefully lead to less violence unless the anti-Maduro crowd decides to take revenge on the pro-Maduro crowd. This isn't over yet...
One thing, most South American countries have managed to put the days of civil war and dictators behind them and evolve into countries that are democratic. The Bolivarian revolution made Venezuela go the other way: back into oppression and violence.
It was Bolivar himself who said: "Making revolutions is like plowing at sea."
[Edited 1/27/19 6:49am]
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Reply #15 posted 01/27/19 7:05am

nd33

I recommend this for a different perspective than we’re getting from the mainstream media:

Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #16 posted 01/27/19 7:06am

OnlyNDaUsa

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hausofmoi7 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Democracy is a horrible idea...

You and North C have made that very clear. Both your responses sum up the issue here. An election can not be called “illegitimate” just because you don’t like the result. Every election since Hugo Chavez has been called illegitimate. . [Edited 1/26/19 16:11pm]

every word you said is wrong

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #17 posted 01/27/19 7:44am

13cjk13

hausofmoi7 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Democracy is a horrible idea...

You and North C have made that very clear. Both your responses sum up the issue here. An election can not be called “illegitimate” just because you don’t like the result. Every election since Hugo Chavez has been called illegitimate. . [Edited 1/26/19 16:11pm]

Everything you said here is completely right. If only people would pay attention.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #18 posted 01/27/19 7:56am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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Obama..Cuba. Snickers at hypocritical stance people have on Venezuela. Talking to some that escaped constant rape, robbery and not being able to buy groceries sounds like a place the liberals would love!
What are you outraged about today? CNN has not told you yet?
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Reply #19 posted 01/27/19 12:10pm

SuperFurryAnim
al

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2freaky4church1 said:

North C, your shocking hate of democracy.



And you believe what they tell you..
What are you outraged about today? CNN has not told you yet?
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Reply #20 posted 01/28/19 7:06am

KoolEaze

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

The people of Venezuela need someone to take over and try to save them. Chavez and those villains that came after failed and have driven the country to ruin... socialism always fails.

Social programs are fine...but to fund them there MUST be a robust free market from which to draw said funding. Saddy it tends to disincentivize effort and rewards poor choices.

and these fools that think a zero skill should get $15 an hour? No! That can have one and only one outcome... the devaluation of a dollar. Period. No Debate.

I don´t think that this is about the poor people of Venezuela and the hardships they have to endure, nor is it about how brutally the regime acted toward protestors. If that were the case, then the US would not do business with Saudi Arabia which is far more horrible than Maduro´s regime could ever be.

But I agree with you that socialism , in practice, does not work. I´ve been to many socialist and formerly socialist countries and they were all poor and in bad condition. Maybe it works in theory but in reality I have yet to see a functioning socialist state. Yugoslavia was kind of ok but then again it wasn´t comparable to most hardcore socialist countries anyway.

I prefer social democracy over socialism . The European social democrats and their ideas are good if people don´t exploit those systems.

" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"




http://kooleasehvac.com/
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Reply #21 posted 01/28/19 12:19pm

2freaky4church
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Nobody who cares should support any coup;

https://www.thenation.com...do-maduro/

While we talk about Russia interference? lol

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #22 posted 01/28/19 1:58pm

NorthC

Never mind.
[Edited 1/28/19 14:09pm]
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Reply #23 posted 01/28/19 5:17pm

nd33

2freaky4church1 said:

Nobody who cares should support any coup;



https://www.thenation.com...do-maduro/



While we talk about Russia interference? lol



YES. Everytime Russia something is brought up, this should be the response. No hypocrisy allowed, unchallenged.
Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #24 posted 01/29/19 2:51am

jaawwnn

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

The people of Venezuela need someone to take over and try to save them.

Argument ends right there.

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Reply #25 posted 01/29/19 3:39am

OnlyNDaUsa

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jaawwnn said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

The people of Venezuela need someone to take over and try to save them.

Argument ends right there.


so their system is working fine now?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #26 posted 01/29/19 3:58am

nd33

OnlyNDaUsa said:



jaawwnn said:




OnlyNDaUsa said:


The people of Venezuela need someone to take over and try to save them.



Argument ends right there.




so their system is working fine now?



Yo, the fucking US govt has been putting sanctions on them for several years. How do you think it’s going?

That I have to look to an Irish paper to get a report on that, speaks volumes to the narrative being pushed to the US public.

https://www.irishexaminer...94nNzBHK4Y
Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #27 posted 01/29/19 4:05am

nd33

I have to give him props for not even trying to keep it covert :err:

“It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela.“

https://www.rt.com/usa/44...venezuela/
Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #28 posted 01/29/19 5:12am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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nd33 said:

I have to give him props for not even trying to keep it covert err “It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela.“ https://www.rt.com/usa/44...venezuela/

That would be a good thing.

What are you outraged about today? CNN has not told you yet?
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Reply #29 posted 01/29/19 5:49am

hausofmoi7

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SuperFurryAnimal said:



nd33 said:


I have to give him props for not even trying to keep it covert err “It will make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela.“ https://www.rt.com/usa/44...venezuela/


That would be a good thing.


Robbing someone, or in this context a country and its people is only a good thing if you are the robber.

I’m actually glad conservatives are on here letting it all out.
It really reveals what this is all about and why Venezuela is being attacked.

In an Australian context this is the equivalent of the u.s backing Gina Rinehart militarily against an indegenious movement which had reclaimed ownership of the countries coal resources and the mining industry.




.
[Edited 1/29/19 5:50am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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