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Reply #60 posted 10/04/18 3:18pm

IanRG

toejam said:

2freaky4church1 said:

He's saying a fully formed human has God in him.

.

Nah. There are plenty of fully formed humans who reject the idea of God as a superstition. The idea that atheists are somehow lesser humans than theists is ... hmmm ... I dunno ... stemming from a superiority complex? wink

.

I know plenty of believers and non-believers who are fully formed humans.

.

Anyway, I reject the idea of God as a superstition, God is not like walking under a ladder. God's existence in you or elsewhere is not determined by whether you are a theist or an atheist. If I choose not to believe in you, you will still exist. Either God is in us all (even you) or in no one. Perhaps your feeling that others think you are less than them is a inferiorty complex? <img src=" />

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Reply #61 posted 10/04/18 4:04pm

toejam

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^At the end of the day, I think there are better reasons for thinking God is a superstition. You believe, for example, that you have personal internal communications from a supreme being whom 2,000yrs ago was incarnated into humanity via a virgin surrogate. To call that a delusional superstition is not too far off the mark. I do think my belief that Jesus was just a man who was conceived in the same way as virtually every other human in history has been conceived is superior to yours, but I do not see you as a lesser human being*.


.

*just a pendantically annoying one lol

.

[Edited 10/4/18 16:40pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #62 posted 10/04/18 4:19pm

toejam

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IanRG said:

God is not like walking under a ladder.

.

Perhaps a better analogy is the common superstitious belief that one has a greater chance of winning the lotto by sticking to numbers that are meaningful to them in their life (one's "lucky numbers") than by selecting any other random combination of numbers, with their confidence coming from some internal "I just feel it in my bones!"-like sensation. Belief in God can be like that for many people.

.

[Edited 10/4/18 16:32pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #63 posted 10/04/18 5:47pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:

God is not like walking under a ladder.

.

Perhaps a better analogy is the common superstitious belief that one has a greater chance of winning the lotto by sticking to numbers that are meaningful to them in their life (one's "lucky numbers") than by selecting any other random combination of numbers, with their confidence coming from some internal "I just feel it in my bones!"-like sensation. Belief in God can be like that for many people.

.

[Edited 10/4/18 16:32pm]

.

I don't need to be pedantic to say this is about your poorest of poor analogies and you are superior to virtually everyone in creating really bad analogies. I say this knowing you get annoyed with people who criticise your analogies.

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Reply #64 posted 10/04/18 5:48pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

IanRG said:




toejam said:




2freaky4church1 said:


He's saying a fully formed human has God in him.



.


Nah. There are plenty of fully formed humans who reject the idea of God as a superstition. The idea that atheists are somehow lesser humans than theists is ... hmmm ... I dunno ... stemming from a superiority complex? wink



.


I know plenty of believers and non-believers who are fully formed humans.


.


Anyway, I reject the idea of God as a superstition, God is not like walking under a ladder. God's existence in you or elsewhere is not determined by whether you are a theist or an atheist. If I choose not to believe in you, you will still exist. Either God is in us all (even you) or in no one. Perhaps your feeling that others think you are less than them is a inferiorty complex? <img src=" />



Resorting to name-calling as your arguments is the definition of an inferiority complex and childish.

I thought better of you in debating theology.
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Reply #65 posted 10/05/18 2:38am

CherryMoon57

avatar

toejam said:

^At the end of the day, I think there are better reasons for thinking God is a superstition. You believe, for example, that you have personal internal communications from a supreme being whom 2,000yrs ago was incarnated into humanity via a virgin surrogate. To call that a delusional superstition is not too far off the mark. I do think my belief that Jesus was just a man who was conceived in the same way as virtually every other human in history has been conceived is superior to yours, but I do not see you as a lesser human being*.


.

*just a pendantically annoying one lol

.

[Edited 10/4/18 16:40pm]


So what would be the point of God proving His existence to you if you have already rejected His most important gift to us? Imagine you had two very expensive gifts to give to someone special, someone you loved with all your heart, and you start giving them one of these gifts, but instead of thanking you the person would just mock and harshly criticise the gift. Would you then feel like giving them the second gift?

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #66 posted 10/05/18 4:08am

toejam

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CherryMoon57 said:

So what would be the point of God proving His existence to you if you have already rejected His most important gift to us?

I don't see that God is there offering any gift. One reason to reveal himself could be to show me that I'm wrong.

.
[Edited 10/5/18 4:09am]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #67 posted 10/05/18 5:28am

CherryMoon57

avatar

toejam said:

CherryMoon57 said:
So what would be the point of God proving His existence to you if you have already rejected His most important gift to us?
I don't see that God is there offering any gift. One reason to reveal himself could be to show me that I'm wrong. . [Edited 10/5/18 4:09am]

yeahthat

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #68 posted 10/05/18 5:39am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:



toejam said:


CherryMoon57 said:
So what would be the point of God proving His existence to you if you have already rejected His most important gift to us?

I don't see that God is there offering any gift. One reason to reveal himself could be to show me that I'm wrong. . [Edited 10/5/18 4:09am]

yeahthat



A lot of us are looking for a reason to believe. It’s not even about rejecting anything or not being open to it. A lot of people have been struggling with the idea of God for their entire lives and try to make sense of it all.

If you think you found god and makes you happy fantastic. Amazing. But that doesn’t necessarily make anything so.
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Reply #69 posted 10/05/18 7:22am

2freaky4church
1

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God found me. You have to have a personal relationship.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #70 posted 10/05/18 7:33am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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I think a lot of people feel alone lost and aimless. And
If something fills that void in a positive way the it’s a wonderful thing. Whatever that is.
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Reply #71 posted 10/05/18 8:59am

2freaky4church
1

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That's why the sun rises, to shine on things that need to be seen.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #72 posted 10/05/18 9:10am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

That's why the sun rises, to shine on things that need to be seen.



What kind of retreat are you at freaky? What’s wrong? You don’nt sound happy.
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Reply #73 posted 10/05/18 2:33pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

CherryMoon57 said:

yeahthat

A lot of us are looking for a reason to believe. It’s not even about rejecting anything or not being open to it. A lot of people have been struggling with the idea of God for their entire lives and try to make sense of it all. If you think you found god and makes you happy fantastic. Amazing. But that doesn’t necessarily make anything so.

What I can tell you without giving too many details of my experience away (I could never do this on a forum) is that God is far greater than just 'an idea'. I can also tell you that there is not enough space in our brains to even take it all in. So vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #74 posted 10/05/18 3:42pm

toejam

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

CherryMoon57 said: A lot of us are looking for a reason to believe. It’s not even about rejecting anything or not being open to it. A lot of people have been struggling with the idea of God for their entire lives and try to make sense of it all. If you think you found god and makes you happy fantastic. Amazing. But that doesn’t necessarily make anything so.

What I can tell you without giving too many details of my experience away (I could never do this on a forum) is that God is far greater than just 'an idea'. I can also tell you that there is not enough space in our brains to even take it all in. So vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning.

.

^How can one tell the difference between a belief said to "transcend all reasoning" vs. it just being an unreasonable belief? I think there are reasonable arguments for thinking that God is a superstition. Earlier you said you received personal revelation/confirmation from God after you already believed in God. Isn't that putting the cart before the horse and setting one's self up for confirmation bias? Is this not the kind of claims we might hear if indeed God is a superstition? I'll stick with that which seems more reasonable until God shows me otherwise.

.

[Edited 10/5/18 15:50pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #75 posted 10/05/18 9:04pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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That it is vast and beyond our understand is something that all of us can see. Some can chalk it up to something beyond reason and have looked up at the night sky through the centuries created folklore and religion to comfort and fit their needs. And others looked up and tried to understand it instead. We as a society, all of us have benefited more from those who brought a semblance of reason and illumination from it than those with blind faith. GPS will get you home in the dark better than blind faith.

If there is a god, he wants us to doubt and wonder instead of following blindly.
Questioning base human beliefs with no basis in fact is not a “delusion of grandeur”. Insisting it is, is certainly a delusion of grandeur and more.
[Edited 10/5/18 21:18pm]
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Reply #76 posted 10/06/18 2:45pm

CherryMoon57

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'King was initially skeptical of many of Christianity's claims. At the age of 13, he denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus during Sunday school.[17] From this point, he stated, "doubts began to spring forth unrelentingly."[18][17] However, he later concluded that the Bible has "many profound truths which one cannot escape" and decided to enter the seminary.' https://en.wikipedia.org/...al_studies

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #77 posted 10/06/18 2:56pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:

'King was initially skeptical of many of Christianity's claims. At the age of 13, he denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus during Sunday school.[17] From this point, he stated, "doubts began to spring forth unrelentingly."[18][17] However, he later concluded that the Bible has "many profound truths which one cannot escape" and decided to enter the seminary.' https://en.wikipedia.org/...al_studies



Yes the Bible has many fantastic morality tales. Absolutely. These morality tales have been told through human civilization even before the Bible. No doubt the Bible is amazing. Ian here has studied many cultures and religions it seems from a previous post on this thread.
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Reply #78 posted 10/06/18 3:21pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

toejam said:

CherryMoon57 said:

What I can tell you without giving too many details of my experience away (I could never do this on a forum) is that God is far greater than just 'an idea'. I can also tell you that there is not enough space in our brains to even take it all in. So vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning.

.

^How can one tell the difference between a belief said to "transcend all reasoning" vs. it just being an unreasonable belief? I think there are reasonable arguments for thinking that God is a superstition. Earlier you said you received personal revelation/confirmation from God after you already believed in God. Isn't that putting the cart before the horse and setting one's self up for confirmation bias? Is this not the kind of claims we might hear if indeed God is a superstition? I'll stick with that which seems more reasonable until God shows me otherwise.

.

[Edited 10/5/18 15:50pm]

That which I said was 'so vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning' was not about my belief. My belief was tiny in comparison to that which happened and proved me wrong. What went through my mind while it happened was 'What the... I can't believe this...' I was in total disbelief. But it carried on for a while as if to erase those lingering doubts. I felt a bit sheepish afterwards for all my prior skepticism. I had even asked God for a proof of His existence shortly before it happened... God certainly has a lot of love and patience for mankind.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #79 posted 10/06/18 3:26pm

CherryMoon57

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'And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.' Matthew 13:58

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #80 posted 10/06/18 3:29pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:



toejam said:




CherryMoon57 said:



What I can tell you without giving too many details of my experience away (I could never do this on a forum) is that God is far greater than just 'an idea'. I can also tell you that there is not enough space in our brains to even take it all in. So vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning.



.


^How can one tell the difference between a belief said to "transcend all reasoning" vs. it just being an unreasonable belief? I think there are reasonable arguments for thinking that God is a superstition. Earlier you said you received personal revelation/confirmation from God after you already believed in God. Isn't that putting the cart before the horse and setting one's self up for confirmation bias? Is this not the kind of claims we might hear if indeed God is a superstition? I'll stick with that which seems more reasonable until God shows me otherwise.


.






[Edited 10/5/18 15:50pm]



That which I said was 'so vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning' was not about my belief. My belief was tiny in comparison to that which happened and proved me wrong. What went through my mind while it happened was 'What the... I can't believe this...' I was in total disbelief. But it carried on for a while as if to erase those lingering doubts. I felt a bit sheepish afterwards for all my prior skepticism. I had even asked God for a proof of His existence shortly before it happened... God certainly has a lot of love and patience for mankind.



And we have only been here on earth for a relatively short time in the timescale of the earth and the universe. He had a whole of a lot of patience for the dinosaurs that roamed the earth before us. Hopefully he has that much patience for us too.
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Reply #81 posted 10/06/18 4:08pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

CherryMoon57 said:

That which I said was 'so vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning' was not about my belief. My belief was tiny in comparison to that which happened and proved me wrong. What went through my mind while it happened was 'What the... I can't believe this...' I was in total disbelief. But it carried on for a while as if to erase those lingering doubts. I felt a bit sheepish afterwards for all my prior skepticism. I had even asked God for a proof of His existence shortly before it happened... God certainly has a lot of love and patience for mankind.

And we have only been here on earth for a relatively short time in the timescale of the earth and the universe. He had a whole of a lot of patience for the dinosaurs that roamed the earth before us. Hopefully he has that much patience for us too.

Yeah, whatever happened to the dinosaurs...

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #82 posted 10/06/18 4:12pm

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

CherryMoon57 said:

'King was initially skeptical of many of Christianity's claims. At the age of 13, he denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus during Sunday school.[17] From this point, he stated, "doubts began to spring forth unrelentingly."[18][17] However, he later concluded that the Bible has "many profound truths which one cannot escape" and decided to enter the seminary.' https://en.wikipedia.org/...al_studies

Yes the Bible has many fantastic morality tales. Absolutely. These morality tales have been told through human civilization even before the Bible. No doubt the Bible is amazing. Ian here has studied many cultures and religions [, sciences and technologies] it seems from a previous post on this thread.

.

Because the only way to get a full multi-dimensional understanding of life, the universe and every thing is to seek understanding (remember the topic).

.

It is not to imagine mental impairment as the reason people may disagree with you or to pretend religious people don't use GPS to get home in the dark and have never tried to understand and contribute to the development of sciences, technologies and engineering. Science would be a poor shadow of itself if it was not for people who are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc, all seeking to better understand our existance by more than looking up at night or dismissing others merely based on your beliefs about them.

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Reply #83 posted 10/06/18 4:36pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


CherryMoon57 said:


That which I said was 'so vast and powerful it transcends all reasoning' was not about my belief. My belief was tiny in comparison to that which happened and proved me wrong. What went through my mind while it happened was 'What the... I can't believe this...' I was in total disbelief. But it carried on for a while as if to erase those lingering doubts. I felt a bit sheepish afterwards for all my prior skepticism. I had even asked God for a proof of His existence shortly before it happened... God certainly has a lot of love and patience for mankind.



And we have only been here on earth for a relatively short time in the timescale of the earth and the universe. He had a whole of a lot of patience for the dinosaurs that roamed the earth before us. Hopefully he has that much patience for us too.

Yeah, whatever happened to the dinosaurs...



After 200 million years god must have lost patience?
We’ve only been here for give or take hundreds of thousands of years so hopefully god gives is at least the same 200 million years. Dinosaurs were pretty cool though, i can see why god loved them.
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Reply #84 posted 10/06/18 4:39pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


CherryMoon57 said:

'King was initially skeptical of many of Christianity's claims. At the age of 13, he denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus during Sunday school.[17] From this point, he stated, "doubts began to spring forth unrelentingly."[18][17] However, he later concluded that the Bible has "many profound truths which one cannot escape" and decided to enter the seminary.' https://en.wikipedia.org/...al_studies



Yes the Bible has many fantastic morality tales. Absolutely. These morality tales have been told through human civilization even before the Bible. No doubt the Bible is amazing. Ian here has studied many cultures and religions [, sciences and technologies] it seems from a previous post on this thread.

.


Because the only way to get a full multi-dimensional understanding of life, the universe and every thing is to seek understanding (remember the topic).


.


It is not to imagine mental impairment as the reason people may disagree with you or to pretend religious people don't use GPS to get home in the dark and have never tried to understand and contribute to the development of sciences, technologies and engineering. Science would be a poor shadow of itself if it was not for people who are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc, all seeking to better understand our existance by more than looking up at night or dismissing others merely based on your beliefs about them.




Good to have you back in the discussion Ian. but let’s not pretend the title of the thread and your comments weren’t also dismissive. I coddle you becasue i like you and freaky.
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Reply #85 posted 10/06/18 4:40pm

CherryMoon57

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There are also those who blindly follow GPS instructions and end up driving into lakes, on edge of cliffs, etc... Blind faith in anything is dangerous.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #86 posted 10/06/18 4:42pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:

There are also those who blindly follow GPS instructions and end up driving into lakes, on edge of cliffs, etc... Blind faith in anything is dangerous.



That’s me! Ive followed the wrong GPS absolutely. And others have followed religion to the same ends and far worse.
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Reply #87 posted 10/06/18 4:44pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Yeah, whatever happened to the dinosaurs...

After 200 million years god must have lost patience? We’ve only been here for give or take hundreds of thousands of years so hopefully god gives is at least the same 200 million years. Dinosaurs were pretty cool though, i can see why god loved them.

Well, there are so many theories, only God knows what happened to them.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #88 posted 10/06/18 5:08pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

CherryMoon57 said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


CherryMoon57 said:


Yeah, whatever happened to the dinosaurs...



After 200 million years god must have lost patience? We’ve only been here for give or take hundreds of thousands of years so hopefully god gives is at least the same 200 million years. Dinosaurs were pretty cool though, i can see why god loved them.

Well, there are so many theories, only God knows what happened to them.



It was so long ago. Do you think?
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Reply #89 posted 10/06/18 5:52pm

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

CherryMoon57 said:

There are also those who blindly follow GPS instructions and end up driving into lakes, on edge of cliffs, etc... Blind faith in anything is dangerous.

That’s me! Ive followed the wrong GPS absolutely. And others have followed religion to the same ends and far worse.

.

Blind faith is so often a misused term and such a broad concept. One of the religiously held beliefs that is shamefully destructive is the blind conviction that your group is superior to the other group, therefore you can dismiss their beliefs as being a result of mental impairment etc. This blind faith in beliefs is a main cause of intolerances based merely on race, gender, culture, sexual orientation and identity, political and religious beliefs. Couple this with greed and you have the cause of so much evil in the world.

.

However, where you follow, at the very least, the humanist aspects of what MLK's essay says in seeking be full, complex and multi-dimensional loving, moralistic and positive people, then how much better would the world be for all?

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