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Forums > Politics & Religion > The Essay that will mow down any atheist: MLK, at age 28!
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Reply #30 posted 10/03/18 2:25pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Wow:

"

Now let us notice first the length of life. I have said that this is the dimension of life in which the individual is concerned with developing his inner powers. It is that dimension of life in which the individual pursued personal ends and ambitions. This is perhaps the selfish dimension of life, and there is such a thing as moral and rational self-interest. If one is not concerned about himself he cannot be totally concerned about other selves.

Some years ago a learned rabbi, the late Joshua Liebman, wrote a book entitled Peace of Mind. He has a chapter in the book entitled, “Love Thyself Properly.” In this chapter he says in substance that it is impossible to love other selves adequately unless you love your own self properly. Many people have been plunged into the abyss of emotional fatalism because they did not love themselves properly. So every individual has a responsibility to be concerned about himself enough to discover what he is made for. After he discovers his calling he should set out to do it with all the strength and power in his being. He should do it as if God Almighty called him at this particular moment in history to do it. He should seek to do his job so well that the living, the dead, or the unborn could not do it better. No matter how small one thinks his life’s work is in terms of the norms of the world and the so-called big jobs, he must realize that it has cosmic significance if he is serving humanity and doing the will of God.

To carry this to one extreme, if it falls your lot to be a street sweeper, sweep streets as Raphael painted pictures, sweep streets as Michelangelo carved marble, sweep streets as Beethoven composed music, sweep streets as Shakespeare wrote poetry. Sweep streets so well that all the hosts of Heaven and Earth will have to pause and say, “Here lived a great street sweeper who swept his job well.” "

Low moral rung here.

In my OPINION this is all just one dimensional BS. Unless your dealing with the already indoctrinated through something like tradition passed down through families or the vulnerable or mentally impaired as most religions do, this stuff always comes off as one dimensional BS. The subject is so complex and so many variables involved that to even think an essay or a book can shed light on it is kinda crazy.(to me) I recently was asked by a friend to accompany them to a Catholic service, and after being away from it for so long, it was jarring how bonkers something I took for granted as a kid was. That’s the main take away for me. Indoctrination makes anything look normal or rational. Like the Oder in your house that only visitors smell and sideway eye to each other. We have to step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times. (In my opinion) Anyway, I’m glad people find joy and inspiration in whatever. Good for you. Awesome.

Your opinion is actually correct here (or half-correct should I say, as I disagree with the 'BS' part lol) since this particular extract is relating to only one of the three dimensions of life discussed in the essay. MLK Jr. then goes on to explain that life cannot be complete without the other two of these dimensions.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #31 posted 10/03/18 2:55pm

toejam

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I'm not really seeing what's so special about the essay. MLK seems to be reading more into Revelation than is there. Revelation is early Christian apocalyptic propaganda, written by someone with a belief that Jesus' apocalyptic return was just around the corner - a belief we can say in hindsight was mistaken.

.

MLK wrote:
Finally, there is a third dimension. Some people never get beyond the first two dimensions of life. They master the first two. They develop their inner powers, they love humanity; but they stop right here. They end up with the feeling that man is the end of all things and that humanity is God. Philosophically or theologically, many of them would call themselves humanists. They seek to live without a sky. They find themselves bogged down on the horizontal plane without being integrated on the vertical plane. But if we are to live the complete life we must reach up and discover God. H. G. Wells was right: “The man who is not religious begins at nowhere and ends at nothing.” Religion is like a mighty wind that breaks down doors and makes that possible and even easy which seems difficult and impossible.

.

I don't believe that "humanity is God". And my lack of belief in God is not due to a lack of trying to "reach up and discover God". I used to believe in God, and now I don't - there were lots of reasons why, but probably the biggest one was the absence of any detectable answer from God when praying/asking simply, honestly, and from the heart "are you there?". My lack of belief is not from want of trying, but from acknowledging the silence and beginning to see how such a belief actually makes better sense as a superstition.

.

But hey, if that makes me "soulless" and "lost", then so be it. I find my life pretty fulfilling.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #32 posted 10/03/18 3:17pm

CherryMoon57

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toejam said:

I'm not really seeing what's so special about the essay. MLK seems to be reading more into Revelation than is there. Revelation is early Christian apocalyptic propaganda, written by someone with a belief that Jesus' apocalyptic return was just around the corner - a belief we can say in hindsight was mistaken.

.

MLK wrote:
Finally, there is a third dimension. Some people never get beyond the first two dimensions of life. They master the first two. They develop their inner powers, they love humanity; but they stop right here. They end up with the feeling that man is the end of all things and that humanity is God. Philosophically or theologically, many of them would call themselves humanists. They seek to live without a sky. They find themselves bogged down on the horizontal plane without being integrated on the vertical plane. But if we are to live the complete life we must reach up and discover God. H. G. Wells was right: “The man who is not religious begins at nowhere and ends at nothing.” Religion is like a mighty wind that breaks down doors and makes that possible and even easy which seems difficult and impossible.

.

I don't believe that "humanity is God". And my lack of belief in God is not due to a lack of trying to "reach up and discover God". I used to believe in God, and now I don't - there were lots of reasons why, but probably the biggest one was the absence of any detectable answer from God when praying/asking simply, honestly, and from the heart "are you there?". My lack of belief is not from want of trying, but from acknowledging the silence and beginning to see how such a belief actually makes better sense as a superstition.

.

But hey, if that makes me "soulless" and "lost", then so be it. I find my life pretty fulfilling.

What sort of response were you expecting from God toejam?

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #33 posted 10/03/18 3:24pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


2freaky4church1 said:

Wow:



"


Now let us notice first the length of life. I have said that this is the dimension of life in which the individual is concerned with developing his inner powers. It is that dimension of life in which the individual pursued personal ends and ambitions. This is perhaps the selfish dimension of life, and there is such a thing as moral and rational self-interest. If one is not concerned about himself he cannot be totally concerned about other selves.


Some years ago a learned rabbi, the late Joshua Liebman, wrote a book entitled Peace of Mind. He has a chapter in the book entitled, “Love Thyself Properly.” In this chapter he says in substance that it is impossible to love other selves adequately unless you love your own self properly. Many people have been plunged into the abyss of emotional fatalism because they did not love themselves properly. So every individual has a responsibility to be concerned about himself enough to discover what he is made for. After he discovers his calling he should set out to do it with all the strength and power in his being. He should do it as if God Almighty called him at this particular moment in history to do it. He should seek to do his job so well that the living, the dead, or the unborn could not do it better. No matter how small one thinks his life’s work is in terms of the norms of the world and the so-called big jobs, he must realize that it has cosmic significance if he is serving humanity and doing the will of God.


To carry this to one extreme, if it falls your lot to be a street sweeper, sweep streets as Raphael painted pictures, sweep streets as Michelangelo carved marble, sweep streets as Beethoven composed music, sweep streets as Shakespeare wrote poetry. Sweep streets so well that all the hosts of Heaven and Earth will have to pause and say, “Here lived a great street sweeper who swept his job well.” "



Low moral rung here.



In my OPINION this is all just one dimensional BS. Unless your dealing with the already indoctrinated through something like tradition passed down through families or the vulnerable or mentally impaired as most religions do, this stuff always comes off as one dimensional BS. The subject is so complex and so many variables involved that to even think an essay or a book can shed light on it is kinda crazy.(to me) I recently was asked by a friend to accompany them to a Catholic service, and after being away from it for so long, it was jarring how bonkers something I took for granted as a kid was. That’s the main take away for me. Indoctrination makes anything look normal or rational. Like the Oder in your house that only visitors smell and sideway eye to each other. We have to step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times. (In my opinion) Anyway, I’m glad people find joy and inspiration in whatever. Good for you. Awesome.

.


There is a self-delusional disingenuousness here. First you write off belief in God as merely the result of indoctrination of the "vulnerable or mentally impaired". Then you dismissively allow us mentally impaired and vulnerable whatever joy and inspriration we can get with a "Good for you".


.


Other than that I agree:


.


Yes - It is complex and one short essay is not the be be all and end all of thought on this topic.


.


Yes - We all need to step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times.


.


This includes you. To dismiss what others think because it fails to meet your current opinion and, in your opinion, these others are not quite as good as you (due to higher vulnerability or mental impairment) is your own self-inflicted indoctrination. It is just a way of justifying your beliefs without seeking to step away from them and look at them from different angles and perspectives and at different times.


.


The quote by Freaky contains just two phrases that directly reference God and one that mentions the hosts of Heaven. Other than that it is about how to live your life to make it the best you can do. How you do this is extremely complex but this can be done whether you are Christian, Muslim or whatever, even atheist. But to deny thought because it comes from a theist has fewer dimensions and depth than to seek understanding in the thoughts of others.



I am glad it was YOU that brought up the word “delusion”
I say “good for you” because I mean it. Because WE ALL delude ourselves. Sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly. And if whatever delusion makes you happy, that is better than one that doesn’t. Am I not right?

We are biologic organic clumps of mass with so many subtle differences between ourselves and so many tiny but magnifiable subtlies in our perception of life from within in our own unique DNA to the multitude outside forces pushing and pulling on us.
Seriously, we can never take ANYONE’S perception of anything, but as “self-delusional” That’s myself, and most certainly includes yourself too. You have to admit that.
[Edited 10/3/18 15:29pm]
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Reply #34 posted 10/03/18 3:41pm

CherryMoon57

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2freaky4church1 said:

I misted up many times reading this. If this doesn't make you fall down and worship God you are soulless and lost:

https://kinginstitute.sta...ist-church

This is deep shit.

This sounds very pessimistic to me 2freaky. Everyone is different so we are not all necessarily moved by the same things at the same time. That doesn't mean that a person hasn't found their path.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #35 posted 10/03/18 3:47pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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CherryMoon57 said:



2freaky4church1 said:


I misted up many times reading this. If this doesn't make you fall down and worship God you are soulless and lost:



https://kinginstitute.sta...ist-church



This is deep shit.



This sounds very pessimistic to me 2freaky. Everyone is different so we are not all necessarily moved by the same things at the same time. That doesn't mean that a person hasn't found their path.




Agreed
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Reply #36 posted 10/03/18 3:52pm

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


2freaky4church1 said:

Wow:



"


Now let us notice first the length of life. I have said that this is the dimension of life in which the individual is concerned with developing his inner powers. It is that dimension of life in which the individual pursued personal ends and ambitions. This is perhaps the selfish dimension of life, and there is such a thing as moral and rational self-interest. If one is not concerned about himself he cannot be totally concerned about other selves.


Some years ago a learned rabbi, the late Joshua Liebman, wrote a book entitled Peace of Mind. He has a chapter in the book entitled, “Love Thyself Properly.” In this chapter he says in substance that it is impossible to love other selves adequately unless you love your own self properly. Many people have been plunged into the abyss of emotional fatalism because they did not love themselves properly. So every individual has a responsibility to be concerned about himself enough to discover what he is made for. After he discovers his calling he should set out to do it with all the strength and power in his being. He should do it as if God Almighty called him at this particular moment in history to do it. He should seek to do his job so well that the living, the dead, or the unborn could not do it better. No matter how small one thinks his life’s work is in terms of the norms of the world and the so-called big jobs, he must realize that it has cosmic significance if he is serving humanity and doing the will of God.


To carry this to one extreme, if it falls your lot to be a street sweeper, sweep streets as Raphael painted pictures, sweep streets as Michelangelo carved marble, sweep streets as Beethoven composed music, sweep streets as Shakespeare wrote poetry. Sweep streets so well that all the hosts of Heaven and Earth will have to pause and say, “Here lived a great street sweeper who swept his job well.” "



Low moral rung here.



In my OPINION this is all just one dimensional BS. Unless your dealing with the already indoctrinated through something like tradition passed down through families or the vulnerable or mentally impaired as most religions do, this stuff always comes off as one dimensional BS. The subject is so complex and so many variables involved that to even think an essay or a book can shed light on it is kinda crazy.(to me) I recently was asked by a friend to accompany them to a Catholic service, and after being away from it for so long, it was jarring how bonkers something I took for granted as a kid was. That’s the main take away for me. Indoctrination makes anything look normal or rational. Like the Oder in your house that only visitors smell and sideway eye to each other. We have to step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times. (In my opinion) Anyway, I’m glad people find joy and inspiration in whatever. Good for you. Awesome.

.


There is a self-delusional disingenuousness here. First you write off belief in God as merely the result of indoctrination of the "vulnerable or mentally impaired". Then you dismissively allow us mentally impaired and vulnerable whatever joy and inspriration we can get with a "Good for you".


.


Other than that I agree:


.


Yes - It is complex and one short essay is not the be be all and end all of thought on this topic.


.


Yes - We all need to step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times.


.


This includes you. To dismiss what others think because it fails to meet your current opinion and, in your opinion, these others are not quite as good as you (due to higher vulnerability or mental impairment) is your own self-inflicted indoctrination. It is just a way of justifying your beliefs without seeking to step away from them and look at them from different angles and perspectives and at different times.


.


The quote by Freaky contains just two phrases that directly reference God and one that mentions the hosts of Heaven. Other than that it is about how to live your life to make it the best you can do. How you do this is extremely complex but this can be done whether you are Christian, Muslim or whatever, even atheist. But to deny thought because it comes from a theist has fewer dimensions and depth than to seek understanding in the thoughts of others.



I am glad it was YOU that brought up the word “delusion”
I say “good for you” because I mean it. Because WE ALL delude ourselves. Sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly. And if whatever delusion makes you happy, that is better than one that doesn’t. Am I not right?

We are biologic organic clumps of mass with so many subtle differences between ourselves and so many tiny but magnifiable subtlies in our perception of life from within in our own unique DNA to the multitude outside forces pushing and pulling on us.
Seriously, we can never take ANYONE’S perception of anything, but as “self-delusional” That’s myself, and most certainly includes yourself too. You have to admit that.
[Edited 10/3/18 15:29pm]

.

I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions.
[Edited 10/3/18 15:53pm]
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Reply #37 posted 10/03/18 4:02pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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.
[Edited 10/3/18 16:16pm]
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Reply #38 posted 10/03/18 4:17pm

toejam

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CherryMoon57 said:

What sort of response were you expecting from God toejam?

I'd ask for different types of responses - either something specific - e.g. "if you're there can you show me by having a tennis ball float in front of me", or for some sort of internal confirmation - the sudden influx of the Holy Spirit (or equivalent). Half the problem became what should one expect from a being beyond? If God exists, he would surely know what would convince me. But a lack of any detectable response eventually starting making better sense to me as the result one would expect if the premise was just a superstition.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #39 posted 10/03/18 4:32pm

CherryMoon57

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toejam said:

CherryMoon57 said:
What sort of response were you expecting from God toejam?
I'd ask for different types of responses - either something specific - e.g. "if you're there can you show me by having a tennis ball float in front of me", or for some sort of internal confirmation - the sudden influx of the Holy Spirit (or equivalent). Half the problem became what should one expect from a being beyond? If God exists, he would surely know what would convince me. But a lack of any detectable response eventually starting making better sense to me as the result one would expect if the premise was just a superstition.

Perhaps God was working on a response for you, but you then lost interest because you expected it to come sooner, or on your own terms.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #40 posted 10/03/18 5:25pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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IanRG said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:



I am glad it was YOU that brought up the word “delusion”
I say “good for you” because I mean it. Because WE ALL delude ourselves. Sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly. And if whatever delusion makes you happy, that is better than one that doesn’t. Am I not right?

We are biologic organic clumps of mass with so many subtle differences between ourselves and so many tiny but magnifiable subtlies in our perception of life from within in our own unique DNA to the multitude outside forces pushing and pulling on us.
Seriously, we can never take ANYONE’S perception of anything, but as “self-delusional” That’s myself, and most certainly includes yourself too. You have to admit that.
[Edited 10/3/18 15:29pm]

.

I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions.
[Edited 10/3/18 15:53pm]


Lol, so you write off my delusion and i yours. But you’re saying your delusion is more humble. Okay whatever.
If you want coddling of your delusion that’s ok. I don’t need anyone coddling mine.
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Reply #41 posted 10/03/18 5:58pm

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

IanRG said:
. I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions. [Edited 10/3/18 15:53pm]
Lol, so you write off my delusion and i yours. But you’re saying your delusion is more humble. Okay whatever. If you want coddling of your delusion that’s ok. I don’t need anyone coddling mine.

.

No - Show me where I wrote off your delusion? I agreed with you that exists but went further to state that it impedes your understanding. I don't want to write off your delusion, I want you to see past it - to use your words I want you to "step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times" rather than just assume your superiority over others. In this I have no expectation that your beliefs will change - except that you will understand your's and other's beliefs better.

.

I did not discuss my delusions at all, I just agreed we can all suffer from them.

.

I never used the word "humble" to describe any delusion.

.

I also never asked for any coddling nor offered any to you. In this I agreed with your desire for people to look at their beliefs not be coddled in them.

.

What I said was your delusion of superiority was expressed by you writing off most people who disagree with your beliefs because they are in your words "more vulnerable" and they are "mentally impaired". This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions. In my first post I said that I have learned from many others who have completely different beliefs, opinions and understandings to mine. It is self-defeating to just write these all off as mental impairments. It keeps you in the shallow end.

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Reply #42 posted 10/03/18 6:27pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


IanRG said:
. I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions. [Edited 10/3/18 15:53pm]

Lol, so you write off my delusion and i yours. But you’re saying your delusion is more humble. Okay whatever. If you want coddling of your delusion that’s ok. I don’t need anyone coddling mine.

.


No - Show me where I wrote off your delusion? I agreed with you that exists but went further to state that it impedes your understanding. I don't want to write off your delusion, I want you to see past it - to use your words I want you to "step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times" rather than just assume your superiority over others. In this I have no expectation that your beliefs will change - except that you will understand your's and other's beliefs better.


.


I did not discuss my delusions at all, I just agreed we can all suffer from them.


.


I never used the word "humble" to describe any delusion.


.


I also never asked for any coddling nor offered any to you. In this I agreed with your desire for people to look at their beliefs not be coddled in them.


.


What I said was your delusion of superiority was expressed by you writing off most people who disagree with your beliefs because they are in your words "more vulnerable" and they are "mentally impaired". This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions. In my first post I said that I have learned from many others who have completely different beliefs, opinions and understandings to mine. It is self-defeating to just write these all off as mental impairments. It keeps you in the shallow end.



Lol
I’ll coddle your delusion anyway because you can’t see it or blind to it. Mine is of supposed superiority, cool. Yours is one to coddle because you do the same exact thing but can’t or refuse to see it.

The one who believes in the supernatural calling others delusional because they don’t. That’s not a marginalizing superiority-complex type of comment is it? lol
You’re completely blind to your delusions
[Edited 10/3/18 18:44pm]
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Reply #43 posted 10/03/18 7:31pm

toejam

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CherryMoon57 said:



toejam said:


CherryMoon57 said:
What sort of response were you expecting from God toejam?

I'd ask for different types of responses - either something specific - e.g. "if you're there can you show me by having a tennis ball float in front of me", or for some sort of internal confirmation - the sudden influx of the Holy Spirit (or equivalent). Half the problem became what should one expect from a being beyond? If God exists, he would surely know what would convince me. But a lack of any detectable response eventually starting making better sense to me as the result one would expect if the premise was just a superstition.

Perhaps God was working on a response for you, but you then lost interest because you expected it to come sooner, or on your own terms.


Perhaps. But either way, until God responds, as far as I can tell I'm justified in thinking God is a superstition. And I don't require him showing me I'm wrong on "my terms". He can smack me upside the head when I least expect it in a way I wasn't expecting. But he doesn't do that either, seemingly. I don't blame God, I just think the lack of any demonstrably determinable response from him is due to his not being there to respond.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #44 posted 10/03/18 7:57pm

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

IanRG said:

.

No - Show me where I wrote off your delusion? I agreed with you that exists but went further to state that it impedes your understanding. I don't want to write off your delusion, I want you to see past it - to use your words I want you to "step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times" rather than just assume your superiority over others. In this I have no expectation that your beliefs will change - except that you will understand your's and other's beliefs better.

.

I did not discuss my delusions at all, I just agreed we can all suffer from them.

.

I never used the word "humble" to describe any delusion.

.

I also never asked for any coddling nor offered any to you. In this I agreed with your desire for people to look at their beliefs not be coddled in them.

.

What I said was your delusion of superiority was expressed by you writing off most people who disagree with your beliefs because they are in your words "more vulnerable" and they are "mentally impaired". This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions. In my first post I said that I have learned from many others who have completely different beliefs, opinions and understandings to mine. It is self-defeating to just write these all off as mental impairments. It keeps you in the shallow end.

Lol I’ll coddle your delusion anyway because you can’t see it or blind to it. Mine is of supposed superiority, cool. Yours is one to coddle because you do the same exact thing but can’t or refuse to see it. The one who believes in the supernatural calling others delusional because they don’t. That’s not a marginalizing superiority-complex type of comment is it? lol You’re completely blind to your delusions [Edited 10/3/18 18:44pm]

.

What delusion have I actually expressed in this thread that you were going to coddle? And how are you coddling someone by mocking them, laughing at them and calling them completely blind to their delusions. This is why people have such problems with you in all the threads you participate in: An inability to sustain a consistent argument across as few as four sentences.

.

All I said was that you can learn by seeking to understand what a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Indigenous Australian etc, etc believes and you can do this without needing to believe what they believe. You can learn from what MLK said in the parts quoted by Freaky without needing to believe in God.

.

The definition of delusional is not limited to just belief in a God. You, yourself, said we all can have our delusions - This "We" includes fundamentalists atheists. You don't get a free pass from all other delusions just because you think others have this specific belief and you believe it is delusional. The delusion you are under is that people who disagree with you must be mentally impaired etc. Me telling you this is a delusional superiority complex is not me having a marginalising superiority complex - That you see it this way is just more of your delusion - Ugot2shakesumthin believes anyone who thinks Ugot2shakesumthin has a fault must have a superiority complex because, clearly Ugot2shakesumthin is superior!

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Reply #45 posted 10/03/18 8:31pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


IanRG said:


.


No - Show me where I wrote off your delusion? I agreed with you that exists but went further to state that it impedes your understanding. I don't want to write off your delusion, I want you to see past it - to use your words I want you to "step away and look at things from different angles and perspectives and at different times" rather than just assume your superiority over others. In this I have no expectation that your beliefs will change - except that you will understand your's and other's beliefs better.


.


I did not discuss my delusions at all, I just agreed we can all suffer from them.


.


I never used the word "humble" to describe any delusion.


.


I also never asked for any coddling nor offered any to you. In this I agreed with your desire for people to look at their beliefs not be coddled in them.


.


What I said was your delusion of superiority was expressed by you writing off most people who disagree with your beliefs because they are in your words "more vulnerable" and they are "mentally impaired". This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions. In my first post I said that I have learned from many others who have completely different beliefs, opinions and understandings to mine. It is self-defeating to just write these all off as mental impairments. It keeps you in the shallow end.



Lol I’ll coddle your delusion anyway because you can’t see it or blind to it. Mine is of supposed superiority, cool. Yours is one to coddle because you do the same exact thing but can’t or refuse to see it. The one who believes in the supernatural calling others delusional because they don’t. That’s not a marginalizing superiority-complex type of comment is it? lol You’re completely blind to your delusions [Edited 10/3/18 18:44pm]

.


What delusion have I actually expressed in this thread that you were going to coddle? And how are you coddling someone by mocking them, laughing at them and calling them completely blind to their delusions. This is why people have such problems with you in all the threads you participate in: An inability to sustain a consistent argument across as few as four sentences.


.


All I said was that you can learn by seeking to understand what a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Indigenous Australian etc, etc believes and you can do this without needing to believe what they believe. You can learn from what MLK said in the parts quoted by Freaky without needing to believe in God.


.


The definition of delusional is not limited to just belief in a God. You, yourself, said we all can have our delusions - This "We" includes fundamentalists atheists. You don't get a free pass from all other delusions just because you think others have this specific belief and you believe it is delusional. The delusion you are under is that people who disagree with you must be mentally impaired etc. Me telling you this is a delusional superiority complex is not me having a marginalising superiority complex - That you see it this way is just more of your delusion - Ugot2shakesumthin believes anyone who thinks Ugot2shakesumthin has a fault must have a superiority complex because, clearly Ugot2shakesumthin is superior!



This is all so backwards. lol
The guy who believes in the supernatural calling someone who disagrees with them delusional and having a superiority complex. Lol

Ok, so you edited one of your responses above. Do you or do you not believe you are delusional. I think you agreed you were then edited it. I think you are. If you think I am that’s cool. Like I said we all are. Especially those who believe in the supernatural and call those who don’t delusional or having a superiority complex. Lol

Yes it’s funny. Not making fun of you, but I do find it all very funny. You’re the one who brought up superiority complex and the word delusional and you cannot see it in yourself. My arguments are consistent in my opinion. I’m never saying I know anything for a fact but see the shades and complity in issues people here sometimes see as black and white. I can find humor in it all and our crazy beliefs.

You’re the one hedging and inconsistent on the fact of whether or not you yourself are delusional. Without coddling, of course you don’t have to believe in the supernatural to be delusional, but it certainly makes a stronger case and being religious means you very much are.
[Edited 10/3/18 21:06pm]
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Reply #46 posted 10/03/18 10:54pm

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

IanRG said:

.

What delusion have I actually expressed in this thread that you were going to coddle? And how are you coddling someone by mocking them, laughing at them and calling them completely blind to their delusions. This is why people have such problems with you in all the threads you participate in: An inability to sustain a consistent argument across as few as four sentences.

.

All I said was that you can learn by seeking to understand what a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Indigenous Australian etc, etc believes and you can do this without needing to believe what they believe. You can learn from what MLK said in the parts quoted by Freaky without needing to believe in God.

.

The definition of delusional is not limited to just belief in a God. You, yourself, said we all can have our delusions - This "We" includes fundamentalists atheists. You don't get a free pass from all other delusions just because you think others have this specific belief and you believe it is delusional. The delusion you are under is that people who disagree with you must be mentally impaired etc. Me telling you this is a delusional superiority complex is not me having a marginalising superiority complex - That you see it this way is just more of your delusion - Ugot2shakesumthin believes anyone who thinks Ugot2shakesumthin has a fault must have a superiority complex because, clearly Ugot2shakesumthin is superior!

This is all so backwards. lol The guy who believes in the supernatural calling someone who disagrees with them delusional and having a superiority complex. Lol Ok, so you edited one of your responses above. Do you or do you not believe you are delusional. I think you agreed you were then edited it. I think you are. If you think I am that’s cool. Like I said we all are. Especially those who believe in the supernatural and call those who don’t delusional or having a superiority complex. Lol Yes it’s funny. Not making fun of you, but I do find it all very funny. You’re the one who brought up superiority complex and the word delusional and you cannot see it in yourself. My arguments are consistent in my opinion. I’m never saying I know anything for a fact but see the shades and complity in issues people here sometimes see as black and white. I can find humor in it all and our crazy beliefs. You’re the one hedging and inconsistent on the fact of whether or not you yourself are delusional. Without coddling, of course you don’t have to believe in the supernatural to be delusional, but it certainly makes a stronger case and being religious means you very much are. [Edited 10/3/18 21:06pm]

.

No I never ever said I was delusional. I said "I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions."

.

The only editing in that post was due to me correcting a formatting issue (I typed this post on a phone). If you need to pretend I said something and edited it to go back on what I said just so you can fake a point about imagined inconsistency, then you are fooling no one but yourself.

.

The reason you are delusional is that you believe people who disagree with you must have a mental impairment. This is nothing to do with your opinion about the existence or not of God, it is simply your delusion of granduer.

.

I note you have failed to address the self-serving claim that all who disagree with you must be mentally impaired.

.

I note you have failed to show where I said in this thread any necessity to believe what various religious beliefs to learn from them - instead all you want to do is laugh at mentally impaired people. As I said so shallow and so dimensionless.

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Reply #47 posted 10/03/18 11:53pm

BombSquad

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

jjhunsecker said:

Live and let live, I say...Let people choose what's best for them

unless you do not like it

I agree. history shows that intolerance of relgion has brought billions of murder & deaths and countless wars and tragedy over mankind. fucking assholes will kill people cause they don't "like" that other "god" or other moral choices, or similar dumbed down bigot shit. rotten fucks.
so at least once we agree.

[Edited 10/3/18 23:55pm]

Ideally speaking, the President of the United States and the dumbest person in the country would be two different people. Oh well.... money can't fix stupid
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Reply #48 posted 10/04/18 12:12am

jjhunsecker

avatar

BombSquad said:

I agree. history shows that intolerance of relgion has brought billions of murder & deaths and countless wars and tragedy over mankind. fucking assholes will kill people cause they don't "like" that other "god" or other moral choices, or similar dumbed down bigot shit. rotten fucks.
so at least once we agree.

[Edited 10/3/18 23:55pm]

I totally agree. That's why I believe people should have the right to chose an abortion if they want. Or marry someone of the sam sex if they want. I would never force someone who didn't want an abortion to have one, or marry someone they didn't want to. That's why I have an issue with those who would stop those who DO want an abortion, or to marry another consenting adult of their choice.

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Reply #49 posted 10/04/18 3:03am

CherryMoon57

avatar

toejam said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Perhaps God was working on a response for you, but you then lost interest because you expected it to come sooner, or on your own terms.

Perhaps. But either way, until God responds, as far as I can tell I'm justified in thinking God is a superstition. And I don't require him showing me I'm wrong on "my terms". He can smack me upside the head when I least expect it in a way I wasn't expecting. But he doesn't do that either, seemingly. I don't blame God, I just think the lack of any demonstrably determinable response from him is due to his not being there to respond.


From my own experience, the responses stemmed from my belief, not my doubts. The Bible also supports this in numerous places. That said, I have sometimes been surprised even during periods of uncertainties. Perhaps it was because despite the doubts I never lost hope. Honesty with oneself, others and God, is also very important. But I don't think there are any rules about what God can and cannot do. Everyone's life journey is unique so there are no 'one size fits all' kind of script about it. Doubting certainly is inherent to our human nature, so I completely understand what you are saying regarding the absences of tangible signs. Not that I didn't believe before, but it certainly did boost my faith when I received a direct and powerful confirmation that what you call the 'tangible' is only one aspect of God's multi-dimensional universe.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #50 posted 10/04/18 3:45am

IanRG

jjhunsecker said:

BombSquad said:

I agree. history shows that intolerance of relgion has brought billions of murder & deaths and countless wars and tragedy over mankind. fucking assholes will kill people cause they don't "like" that other "god" or other moral choices, or similar dumbed down bigot shit. rotten fucks.
so at least once we agree.

[Edited 10/3/18 23:55pm]

I totally agree. That's why I believe people should have the right to chose an abortion if they want. Or marry someone of the sam sex if they want. I would never force someone who didn't want an abortion to have one, or marry someone they didn't want to. That's why I have an issue with those who would stop those who DO want an abortion, or to marry another consenting adult of their choice.

.

I also agree - I remember arguing with a close right-wing gay friend where I was arguing for marriage equality from the point of view that God recognises positive and supportive love between all couples and he was arguing against it. Also, I did not spend my later childhood without a mother because abortion was made legal in NSW - obviously there needs to be reasonable access and controls with help for the grieving parents, especially the mother, not attacking and shaming her on the basis of a religious view the mother might not have.

.

In this it does need to be born in mind that violent intolerance of other people's race, culture, gender, etc is not limited to just by religion or religious - It starts with people thinking they are better than others and thinking they are superior to those that need be converted or coddled due to an assumed but completely made up mental impairment just because the person has different beliefs.

.

All of these sidebars on how God should prove itself to an atheist, the mocking of religious people and the indelible stain people and religions bear for violence and manipulation are irrelevant to the actual topic - MLK's essay on how to be a complete, complex, positive and multi-dimensional person - how to be better by being positively complete.

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Reply #51 posted 10/04/18 4:43am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


IanRG said:


.


What delusion have I actually expressed in this thread that you were going to coddle? And how are you coddling someone by mocking them, laughing at them and calling them completely blind to their delusions. This is why people have such problems with you in all the threads you participate in: An inability to sustain a consistent argument across as few as four sentences.


.


All I said was that you can learn by seeking to understand what a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Indigenous Australian etc, etc believes and you can do this without needing to believe what they believe. You can learn from what MLK said in the parts quoted by Freaky without needing to believe in God.


.


The definition of delusional is not limited to just belief in a God. You, yourself, said we all can have our delusions - This "We" includes fundamentalists atheists. You don't get a free pass from all other delusions just because you think others have this specific belief and you believe it is delusional. The delusion you are under is that people who disagree with you must be mentally impaired etc. Me telling you this is a delusional superiority complex is not me having a marginalising superiority complex - That you see it this way is just more of your delusion - Ugot2shakesumthin believes anyone who thinks Ugot2shakesumthin has a fault must have a superiority complex because, clearly Ugot2shakesumthin is superior!



This is all so backwards. lol The guy who believes in the supernatural calling someone who disagrees with them delusional and having a superiority complex. Lol Ok, so you edited one of your responses above. Do you or do you not believe you are delusional. I think you agreed you were then edited it. I think you are. If you think I am that’s cool. Like I said we all are. Especially those who believe in the supernatural and call those who don’t delusional or having a superiority complex. Lol Yes it’s funny. Not making fun of you, but I do find it all very funny. You’re the one who brought up superiority complex and the word delusional and you cannot see it in yourself. My arguments are consistent in my opinion. I’m never saying I know anything for a fact but see the shades and complity in issues people here sometimes see as black and white. I can find humor in it all and our crazy beliefs. You’re the one hedging and inconsistent on the fact of whether or not you yourself are delusional. Without coddling, of course you don’t have to believe in the supernatural to be delusional, but it certainly makes a stronger case and being religious means you very much are. [Edited 10/3/18 21:06pm]

.


No I never ever said I was delusional. I said "I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions."


.


The only editing in that post was due to me correcting a formatting issue (I typed this post on a phone). If you need to pretend I said something and edited it to go back on what I said just so you can fake a point about imagined inconsistency, then you are fooling no one but yourself.


.


The reason you are delusional is that you believe people who disagree with you must have a mental impairment. This is nothing to do with your opinion about the existence or not of God, it is simply your delusion of granduer.


.


I note you have failed to address the self-serving claim that all who disagree with you must be mentally impaired.


.


I note you have failed to show where I said in this thread any necessity to believe what various religious beliefs to learn from them - instead all you want to do is laugh at mentally impaired people. As I said so shallow and so dimensionless.



OMG
Well it is funny and finding it funny is a now in your opinion a delusion of grandeur.

You are also being duplicitous by stating i call people mentally unstable if someone is agreeing with me. That’s delusional too.
lol

You know very well that you are butt hurt about me specifically calling religion a delusion. You want to be coddled and want to call others delusional but can’t accept getting smacked back with the same. You want to believe in the supernatural, you want to believe in things CLINICALLY proven to be delusional in anyone else, in other groups as delusional.

Sure we coddle certain religions as exempt from this by society becasue it’s mainstream. But it is an exemption the psychiatrist community places on large mainstream groups but not on others who delude themselves and believe things that have no basis on fact.

Go sulk and lick your wounds and call me names but don’t get upset when your own name calling is used against you.
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Reply #52 posted 10/04/18 5:07am

IanRG

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

IanRG said:

.

No I never ever said I was delusional. I said "I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions."

.

The only editing in that post was due to me correcting a formatting issue (I typed this post on a phone). If you need to pretend I said something and edited it to go back on what I said just so you can fake a point about imagined inconsistency, then you are fooling no one but yourself.

.

The reason you are delusional is that you believe people who disagree with you must have a mental impairment. This is nothing to do with your opinion about the existence or not of God, it is simply your delusion of granduer.

.

I note you have failed to address the self-serving claim that all who disagree with you must be mentally impaired.

.

I note you have failed to show where I said in this thread any necessity to believe what various religious beliefs to learn from them - instead all you want to do is laugh at mentally impaired people. As I said so shallow and so dimensionless.

OMG Well it is funny and finding it funny is a now in your opinion a delusion of grandeur. You are also being duplicitous by stating i call people mentally unstable if someone is agreeing with me. That’s delusional too. lol You know very well that you are butt hurt about me specifically calling religion a delusion. You want to be coddled and want to call others delusional but can’t accept getting smacked back with the same. You want to believe in the supernatural, you want to believe in things CLINICALLY proven to be delusional in anyone else, in other groups as delusional. Sure we coddle certain religions as exempt from this by society becasue it’s mainstream. But it is an exemption the psychiatrist community places on large mainstream groups but not on others who delude themselves and believe things that have no basis on fact. Go sulk and lick your wounds and call me names but don’t get upset when your own name calling is used against you.

.

Why would I sulk? Your self-serving arguments only show your lack of understanding and shallowness.

.

A delusion of assumed erroneous superiority is a delusion of grandeur - look it up.

.

When you say people who disagree with you must have a mental impairment and I pull you up on this, it is not me being duplicitous - That is another of your many delusions. It is offensive to those with real mental impairment that you would do this.

.

Another example of your delusion of granduer: Just because you say something does not make it right or believable or even a well formed argument. When people argue against clear delusional statements like people who disagree with Ugot2shakesumthin must have a mental impairment, they are not doing it because of some "butt hurt" or a childish "oh but you are" argument, we do it because your argument is unsustainable. As we are not in Primary School, seeking to call a person the same thing back with no sustainable argument inflicts no wounds on anyone but yourself.

.

You clearly want the last taunt as if it proves anything, so I will not bother replying to your next delusion.

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Reply #53 posted 10/04/18 5:11am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

IanRG said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


IanRG said:


.


No I never ever said I was delusional. I said "I have no problem agreeing that we all are capable of self delusion. However what you failled to address is the delusion of superiority implicit in writing off all with a belief in God as more vulnerable than you and suffering from mental impairment. This is an excuse that keeps your assessment of other's beliefs to shallow dimensions."


.


The only editing in that post was due to me correcting a formatting issue (I typed this post on a phone). If you need to pretend I said something and edited it to go back on what I said just so you can fake a point about imagined inconsistency, then you are fooling no one but yourself.


.


The reason you are delusional is that you believe people who disagree with you must have a mental impairment. This is nothing to do with your opinion about the existence or not of God, it is simply your delusion of granduer.


.


I note you have failed to address the self-serving claim that all who disagree with you must be mentally impaired.


.


I note you have failed to show where I said in this thread any necessity to believe what various religious beliefs to learn from them - instead all you want to do is laugh at mentally impaired people. As I said so shallow and so dimensionless.



OMG Well it is funny and finding it funny is a now in your opinion a delusion of grandeur. You are also being duplicitous by stating i call people mentally unstable if someone is agreeing with me. That’s delusional too. lol You know very well that you are butt hurt about me specifically calling religion a delusion. You want to be coddled and want to call others delusional but can’t accept getting smacked back with the same. You want to believe in the supernatural, you want to believe in things CLINICALLY proven to be delusional in anyone else, in other groups as delusional. Sure we coddle certain religions as exempt from this by society becasue it’s mainstream. But it is an exemption the psychiatrist community places on large mainstream groups but not on others who delude themselves and believe things that have no basis on fact. Go sulk and lick your wounds and call me names but don’t get upset when your own name calling is used against you.

.


Why would I sulk? Your self-serving arguments only show your lack of understanding and shallowness.


.


A delusion of assumed erroneous superiority is a delusion of grandeur - look it up.


.


When you say people who disagree with you must have a mental impairment and I pull you up on this, it is not me being duplicitous - That is another of your many delusions. It is offensive to those with real mental impairment that you would do this.


.


Another example of your delusion of granduer: Just because you say something does not make it right or believable or even a well formed argument. When people argue against clear delusional statements like people who disagree with Ugot2shakesumthin must have a mental impairment, they are not doing it because of some "butt hurt" or a childish "oh but you are" argument, we do it because your argument is unsustainable. As we are not in Primary School, seeking to call a person the same thing back with no sustainable argument inflicts no wounds on anyone but yourself.


.


You clearly want the last taunt as if it proves anything, so I will not bother replying to your next delusion.



Talking about a childish response. Lol

No we are not in primary school but thats how you respond. That’s the level you bring this to. You wanted the last retort or you would have responded less childishly.
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Reply #54 posted 10/04/18 9:47am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Yea, your life!! Your life! What about others? where do morals come from?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #55 posted 10/04/18 9:48am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

He's saying a fully formed human has God in him.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #56 posted 10/04/18 10:08am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

Yea, your life!! Your life! What about others? where do morals come from?



SMH
I guess I do have a “superiority complex”
lol
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Reply #57 posted 10/04/18 10:14am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

How do we stop someone from being a Nazi camp guard?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #58 posted 10/04/18 10:18am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

How do we stop someone from being a Nazi camp guard?



https://en.m.wikipedia.or...zi_Germany

In 1933, prior to the annexation of Austria into Germany, the population of Germany was approximately 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic; while the Jewish population was less than 1%.[1][better source needed][2] A census in May 1939, six years into the Nazi era[3] and after the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria and mostly Catholic Czechoslovakia[4] into Germany, indicates[5] that 54% considered themselves Protestant,[not in citation given] 40% Catholic,[not in citation given] 3.5% self-identified as "gottgläubig"[6] (lit. "believers in God", often described as predominately creationist and deistic),[7][not in citation given] and 1.5% as "atheist".[6]
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Reply #59 posted 10/04/18 12:55pm

toejam

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

He's saying a fully formed human has God in him.

.

Nah. There are plenty of fully formed humans who reject the idea of God as a superstition. The idea that atheists are somehow lesser humans than theists is ... hmmm ... I dunno ... stemming from a superiority complex? wink

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
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Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Forums > Politics & Religion > The Essay that will mow down any atheist: MLK, at age 28!