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Reply #30 posted 08/29/18 10:37am

2freaky4church
1

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Oddly we are better on many issues.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #31 posted 08/29/18 10:45am

NorthC

jjhunsecker said:



NorthC said:


jjhunsecker said:


Trump was actually a FAILURE as a businessman. He went bankrupt several times - running a casino ! He's been sued numerous times for stiffing workers . He's been sued for running a scam school, that essentially defrauded the students enrolled there. He was unable to get loans from legitimate American banks, and turned to Russia to finance his business ventures. So these people who though he was a "successful" businessman were taken in by the hype, especially from an idiotic "reality" TV show



I guess that's the American dream: if you make lots of money then you must be succesful! I do agree with Tweety's point about Hillary: yes, if anyone is part of the political establishment, it's she. She lost against Obama, made sure Bernie Sanders was out, just so that she could fulfill her own personal ambitions. People are fed up with that shit and they see through that. That's why people like Trump in America and Marine Le Pen in France and Geert Wilders in Holland get support. I remember seeing a woman on Dutch tv talking about Trump. She said: "I think he's a horrible man, but at least he changes things." If you want to stop people like Trump winning, then at the very least you should take their voters seriously. And expect them to take others seriously also. That's not an easy job, but it's better than talking about "shit hole countries" or "deplorable". All this mud throwning needs to stop. [Edited 8/29/18 9:51am]


Many of us (most of us) don't want a "horrible" man as our leader, someone so petulent and thin skinned, someone who has displayed open racism and bigotry and misogyny througout his life history. If anyone has "slung mud", it's been Trump, who is truly a debased and degraded man, an terrible human being. And if I try to "understand" his voters, what efforts are they making to try to understand ME, and people who think like me ? It's not a one-way street.




And Trump had the same ambitions as Hillary Clinton- he just didn't put in the work like she did. She was qualified, and as he proves every day, he's not.

[Edited 8/29/18 10:26am]


First of all, the woman was from Holland, so she (and I) don't have to deal with Trump as president anyway.
And yes, of course, Hillary wanted to become president because she wanted to become president. And the same can be said for Trump.
But you're overlooking the real problem I want to adress here: people losing faith in politics. That's the real problem. And that's how clowns like Trump can get elected
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Reply #32 posted 08/29/18 10:58am

NorthC

jjhunsecker said:



NorthC said:


Empress said:


Most people I talk to here in Canada that are not far right leaning think Trump is a disgusting person and has made American look like true "American Idiots". Most people think of Trump as a celebrity and are baffled by how he was voted in. Although, having said that, it's pretty clear now that most that voted for him are racists and white. We have plenty of those types here in Canada too. My hope is that he does not get voted back in, so it seems to me that if you agree, you need to work on those that didn't vote or have trouble voting.



Really? "Racist and white". To me, that looks like putting people in boxes once again. Everybody has prejudices, including little old me, but we should really try to look beyond that. If you (not you personally) call Trump voters racists all of the time, how are you going to change their minds? To us in Europe (and Canada too I think), Obama looked like the perfect president who brought the US back to its senses after that idiot war criminal Dubya. Finally, things would go back to normal, but what we didn't (want to) see was all this resentment against politics that was there all along... It's not about race, it's about class and education. The biggest problem today isn't the difference between black and white, it's the difference between the haves and the have nots, between the educated and the uneducated.


NEVER discount race as a factor. That's why Trump harps on Mexican "illegals" and Black "ungrateful" football players. He knows EXACTLY what buttons to push with his base.


Of course. But that only proves that racism is a means, not an end. Trump knows which buttons to push, so he pushes them. It's about power, not skin colour. The Latin American immigrants that Trump wants to stop are the have nots, the American Trump voters, even if they are lower class, are the haves who fear for their jobs. And those are the kind of sentiments people like Trump use to get power. So I'd say, don't underestimate race? You may be right, but let's not overestimate it either. I still think it's more about power and money. And race is used as a decoy.
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Reply #33 posted 08/29/18 10:58am

jjhunsecker

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NorthC said:

jjhunsecker said:

Many of us (most of us) don't want a "horrible" man as our leader, someone so petulent and thin skinned, someone who has displayed open racism and bigotry and misogyny througout his life history. If anyone has "slung mud", it's been Trump, who is truly a debased and degraded man, an terrible human being. And if I try to "understand" his voters, what efforts are they making to try to understand ME, and people who think like me ? It's not a one-way street.


And Trump had the same ambitions as Hillary Clinton- he just didn't put in the work like she did. She was qualified, and as he proves every day, he's not.

[Edited 8/29/18 10:26am]

First of all, the woman was from Holland, so she (and I) don't have to deal with Trump as president anyway. And yes, of course, Hillary wanted to become president because she wanted to become president. And the same can be said for Trump. But you're overlooking the real problem I want to adress here: people losing faith in politics. That's the real problem. And that's how clowns like Trump can get elected

Exactly. She doesn't have to suffer from Trump's policies, his rhetoric, or the embarrassment that he has brought to America. I do, unfortunately. You said we need to take his voters seriously. I do, and in many cases what I see is frightening.

Trump played on people "losing faith in politics", sadly his suporters were unable to see through him, that this is all about HIM, and how he can stroke his ego and enrich himself.

[Edited 8/29/18 10:59am]

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Reply #34 posted 08/29/18 11:03am

jjhunsecker

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NorthC said:

jjhunsecker said:

NEVER discount race as a factor. That's why Trump harps on Mexican "illegals" and Black "ungrateful" football players. He knows EXACTLY what buttons to push with his base.

Of course. But that only proves that racism is a means, not an end. Trump knows which buttons to push, so he pushes them. It's about power, not skin colour. The Latin American immigrants that Trump wants to stop are the have nots, the American Trump voters, even if they are lower class, are the haves who fear for their jobs. And those are the kind of sentiments people like Trump use to get power. So I'd say, don't underestimate race? You may be right, but let's not overestimate it either. I still think it's more about power and money. And race is used as a decoy.

It's both a means and an end. His policies and his langauage have real life consequences, especially for people like me, who are so-called "minorities" in America. He's using racism and bigotry to obtain power, by setting people against one another. I also think this is how he personally thinks and feels.

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Reply #35 posted 08/29/18 11:06am

NorthC

Yeah, I think we mostly agree, JJ, people like Trump obviously misuse feelings amongst people who are unsure about the future, about immigrants... These issues are real, but for some reason, politicians with big egos always know how to take advantage of that.
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Reply #36 posted 08/29/18 11:18am

jjhunsecker

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NorthC said:

Yeah, I think we mostly agree, JJ, people like Trump obviously misuse feelings amongst people who are unsure about the future, about immigrants... These issues are real, but for some reason, politicians with big egos always know how to take advantage of that.

Trump is a classic demagogue, playing on people's fears and hatreds. You see some of his rallies, and they look like lynch mobs sometimes.

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Reply #37 posted 08/29/18 11:28am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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TweetyV6 said:



Ugot2shakesumthin said:


As an American, I think this is all bonkers, I can only imagine we are a laughing stock. What is the general consensus where you are from?


I live in Germany and in the Netherlands.
Since most media are oriented towards the left, there's little good that Trump can do.

I guess in the EU it's 'bon ton' to critisize every fart coming from Trump.


What I'm intererresed in is why it came as such surprise to some people that Trump was elected.
I visit the US frequently, coming to cities/places most foreign reproters never see.

4 weeks before the election, I was on a 2 week businesstrip through the US, starting visiting suppliers in/near LA, Phoenix, Detroit, Minneapolis, Chicago, Salt Lake City, Atlanta, New York and Boston.
Most of the people I talked to, mostly the business owners, were pro Trump.

Why is everyone so disconnected with the 'average American'?


Bussiness owner are usually republican because they are supposedly pro-bussiness. Many California bussiness have moved tp Arizona or elsewhere for more “business-friendly” states that are softer on environmental and worker issues. So your dealings on your bussiness trip is not surprising at all.
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Reply #38 posted 08/29/18 11:29am

13cjk13

jjhunsecker said:

NorthC said:

jjhunsecker said: I guess that's the American dream: if you make lots of money then you must be succesful! I do agree with Tweety's point about Hillary: yes, if anyone is part of the political establishment, it's she. She lost against Obama, made sure Bernie Sanders was out, just so that she could fulfill her own personal ambitions. People are fed up with that shit and they see through that. That's why people like Trump in America and Marine Le Pen in France and Geert Wilders in Holland get support. I remember seeing a woman on Dutch tv talking about Trump. She said: "I think he's a horrible man, but at least he changes things." If you want to stop people like Trump winning, then at the very least you should take their voters seriously. And expect them to take others seriously also. That's not an easy job, but it's better than talking about "shit hole countries" or "deplorable". All this mud throwning needs to stop. [Edited 8/29/18 9:51am]

Many of us (most of us) don't want a "horrible" man as our leader, someone so petulent and thin skinned, someone who has displayed open racism and bigotry and misogyny througout his life history. If anyone has "slung mud", it's been Trump, who is truly a debased and degraded man, an terrible human being. And if I try to "understand" his voters, what efforts are they making to try to understand ME, and people who think like me ? It's not a one-way street.


And Trump had the same ambitions as Hillary Clinton- he just didn't put in the work like she did. She was qualified, and as he proves every day, he's not.

[Edited 8/29/18 10:26am]

Not to mention, she got 3 MILLION MORE VOTES THAN THAT PIG.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #39 posted 08/29/18 11:45am

jjhunsecker

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13cjk13 said:

jjhunsecker said:

Many of us (most of us) don't want a "horrible" man as our leader, someone so petulent and thin skinned, someone who has displayed open racism and bigotry and misogyny througout his life history. If anyone has "slung mud", it's been Trump, who is truly a debased and degraded man, an terrible human being. And if I try to "understand" his voters, what efforts are they making to try to understand ME, and people who think like me ? It's not a one-way street.


And Trump had the same ambitions as Hillary Clinton- he just didn't put in the work like she did. She was qualified, and as he proves every day, he's not.

[Edited 8/29/18 10:26am]

Not to mention, she got 3 MILLION MORE VOTES THAN THAT PIG.

very true...more voters chose HRC

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Reply #40 posted 08/29/18 1:24pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

2elijah said:
. [Edited 8/29/18 5:24am] Interesting. Australia was one of the countries I wanted to visit. I’m not surprised about their history of colonization as it is very similar to America’s history. I always had an interest in learning the culture of the Aboriginal people there, if that is the correct term to identify them, if not then I apologize. Two countries where both stole the land from its original inhabitants, and profited and forced them into slavery, and in present day, still treat them like they are the immigrants.even today, like they are the immigrants on their own homeland. On the other hand, if a large portion of the Australian population like trump, well then I guess that shouldn’t be a surprise. Trump is like a disease
As i pointed out above, the way Trump speaks is actually not that shocking within the context of Australia. If you get to chance to visit Australia though, particularly parts of Australia where many indigenous Australians have large communities and maintain its culture, It's actually quite beautiful. remembering still that these communities are also heavily oppressed and marginalised. Life expectancy for indigenous Australians is 20 years less than the rest of the population. Incarceration rates for indigenous Australians are the highest in the world. Death in police custody is also an issue. The racist attitudes towards indigenous Australians within the general population is also wide spread. Its actually kind of ridiculous how bad it is. . [Edited 8/29/18 8:25am]

.

In no way am I seeking to diminish these accuations against Australia, how we have and are treating Indigenous Australian is deplorable - It is that racism in different countries is not the topic and simialr things apply to every other country including the US before and, in the near future, after Trump. The majority of people who actually live in Australia are constantly expressing shock in the way Trump speaks within the context of Australia. This includes many within groups that traditionally supported the Republicans of old.

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Reply #41 posted 08/29/18 3:25pm

ThatWhiteDude

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I'm from germany and the media didn't say one positive thing about Trump since he ran for the office. Wich is cool with me, because that guy is just a horrible person. I agree with the media reports about him here in germany. The only people who do agree with the agent orange here are usually nazis and that basically says everything. Funny enough, I agree when politicians criticise Trump but they aren't self-reflective. Just yesterday we had nazis marchin through Chemniz and the day before, they were hunting down refugees in the streets. The cops didn't do much during the demo and politicians only said:"These people are scatterbrains". Really? There were about 1000 Nazis marching through Chemniz, raising the right hand infront of cops who did nothing, attacking antifascists and refugees and the only thing you can say is this?

So, what I want to say is this, yes, Trump is a laughing stock over here, but ultimately, I don't think we are in a position to laugh about America when we allow nazis to run through the streets like they are ruling this country. We are fucked up too.

Now, I think it would be different if I was living in switzerland, they are neutral as far as I know, so.....maybe I could laugh more about america then. But not when my home is germany lol We got our very own version of Trump in the form of a partie called AfD.

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."


"Extra cheese, extra HAM, extra bullshit" -DiminutiveRocker
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Reply #42 posted 08/29/18 4:36pm

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:



NorthC said:


Empress said:


Most people I talk to here in Canada that are not far right leaning think Trump is a disgusting person and has made American look like true "American Idiots". Most people think of Trump as a celebrity and are baffled by how he was voted in. Although, having said that, it's pretty clear now that most that voted for him are racists and white. We have plenty of those types here in Canada too. My hope is that he does not get voted back in, so it seems to me that if you agree, you need to work on those that didn't vote or have trouble voting.



Really? "Racist and white". To me, that looks like putting people in boxes once again. Everybody has prejudices, including little old me, but we should really try to look beyond that. If you (not you personally) call Trump voters racists all of the time, how are you going to change their minds? To us in Europe (and Canada too I think), Obama looked like the perfect president who brought the US back to its senses after that idiot war criminal Dubya. Finally, things would go back to normal, but what we didn't (want to) see was all this resentment against politics that was there all along... It's not about race, it's about class and education. The biggest problem today isn't the difference between black and white, it's the difference between the haves and the have nots, between the educated and the uneducated.


NEVER discount race as a factor. That's why Trump harps on Mexican "illegals" and Black "ungrateful" football players. He knows EXACTLY what buttons to push with his base.


Absolutely. Race was one if the tactics he used to attract a specific base of his supporters. Their anger propelled his popularity among them. I think many non-trump voters, didn’t think he would win, and neither did I. With all the controversy trump swirled about Hillary, I believe had many Bernie supporters unsure about voting for her, and Bernie helped add to that suspicion, so trump ended up winning. It doesn’t surprise me though how many outside the U.S. may see trump as unhinged.
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #43 posted 08/29/18 6:27pm

IanRG

2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:

NEVER discount race as a factor. That's why Trump harps on Mexican "illegals" and Black "ungrateful" football players. He knows EXACTLY what buttons to push with his base.

Absolutely. Race was one if the tactics he used to attract a specific base of his supporters. Their anger propelled his popularity among them. I think many non-trump voters, didn’t think he would win, and neither did I. With all the controversy trump swirled about Hillary, I believe had many Bernie supporters unsure about voting for her, and Bernie helped add to that suspicion, so trump ended up winning. It doesn’t surprise me though how many outside the U.S. may see trump as unhinged.

.

Agreed - racism is a key driver of Trump's support and success. This is the same as for Brexit (against Eastern Europeans) and support for far-right political parties/media or far-right politicans within the mainstream parties in Australia and elsewhere. Whilst there has always been racism, the change from traditional conservatives to nationalist conservatives starting with the Tea parties resulting in the world being Trumped, has been the escalation in this.

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Reply #44 posted 08/29/18 10:33pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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TweetyV6 said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


I am not sure what kind of people you deal with, but as for LA NY Boston Chicago Minneapolis - Trump did not win in these cities or states where these cities are located. So you you've really proven nothing in your little "average American" travel poll.

Company owners & part of their leadership team.
In those 2 weeks I spoke to approx. 50 people.

And yes, it's not a representative sample, but I was surprised Trump got so much support.

What I heard was: Hilary is yet another representative of the political establishment and they were pro-Trump because he is a succesfull businessman; he could give the economy a boost.


He gave them all huge tax cuts, that's why they liked him - cuts which is causing a huge national deficit and the tax cuts for middle class working citizens are only temporary.

Hillary got 3 million more votes. Trump's election was legit but it did not represent a landslide win by any means nor does it indicate that the majority of Americans wanted him for prez

"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Reply #45 posted 08/29/18 11:57pm

TweetyV6

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2freaky4church1 said:

Oddly we are better on many issues.


Keep repeating that to yourself and you eventually think it's true.
But it so isn't.

The man of science has learned to believe in justification, not by faith, but by verification - Thomas Henry Huxley
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Reply #46 posted 08/30/18 8:58am

jjhunsecker

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DiminutiveRocker said:

TweetyV6 said:

Company owners & part of their leadership team.
In those 2 weeks I spoke to approx. 50 people.

And yes, it's not a representative sample, but I was surprised Trump got so much support.

What I heard was: Hilary is yet another representative of the political establishment and they were pro-Trump because he is a succesfull businessman; he could give the economy a boost.


He gave them all huge tax cuts, that's why they liked him - cuts which is causing a huge national deficit and the tax cuts for middle class working citizens are only temporary.

Hillary got 3 million more votes. Trump's election was legit but it did not represent a landslide win by any means nor does it indicate that the majority of Americans wanted him for prez

At actual business, Trump has been a failure. What he is good at is hype....he's the ultimate snake oil salesman

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Reply #47 posted 08/30/18 10:16am

13cjk13

jjhunsecker said:

DiminutiveRocker said:


He gave them all huge tax cuts, that's why they liked him - cuts which is causing a huge national deficit and the tax cuts for middle class working citizens are only temporary.

Hillary got 3 million more votes. Trump's election was legit but it did not represent a landslide win by any means nor does it indicate that the majority of Americans wanted him for prez

At actual business, Trump has been a failure. What he is good at is hype....he's the ultimate snake oil salesman

But I suppose if you say "Trump is a great businessman" over and over and over and over again, it starts to be true? Regardless of the facts.

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #48 posted 08/30/18 12:07pm

jjhunsecker

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13cjk13 said:

jjhunsecker said:

At actual business, Trump has been a failure. What he is good at is hype....he's the ultimate snake oil salesman

But I suppose if you say "Trump is a great businessman" over and over and over and over again, it starts to be true? Regardless of the facts.

Well, they saw it on a "reality TV show", so it must be REAL ....

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Reply #49 posted 08/30/18 12:28pm

13cjk13

jjhunsecker said:

13cjk13 said:

But I suppose if you say "Trump is a great businessman" over and over and over and over again, it starts to be true? Regardless of the facts.

Well, they saw it on a "reality TV show", so it must be REAL ....

And he is a real champion for the poor, little forgotten Americans that love their guns, god and America. lol

"If we had had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so."
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Reply #50 posted 08/30/18 1:38pm

FullLipsDotNos
e

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I'm from the Czech Republic and it really depends on whom you ask. Some media despise Trump, some hail him, usually the conspiracy websites.

-

We are a weird country though. We have a president whose views are close to Trump's, we are strongly against migration and ethnic minorities even though Czechs are a mixture of Germans, Celts, Jews, Hungarians, Mongolians, Turks, and a bit of Slavs and even though our PM is a Slovak billionaire (!!). In the lower chamber of the parliament, there is a nationalist guy that is quater-Japanese and quater-Korean and a guy fighting against disability rights who is disabled himself.

full lips, freckles, and upturned nose
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Reply #51 posted 08/31/18 12:04am

DiminutiveRock
er

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jjhunsecker said:

NorthC said:

Yeah, I think we mostly agree, JJ, people like Trump obviously misuse feelings amongst people who are unsure about the future, about immigrants... These issues are real, but for some reason, politicians with big egos always know how to take advantage of that.

Trump is a classic demagogue, playing on people's fears and hatreds. You see some of his rallies, and they look like lynch mobs sometimes.


Spot on, JJ

"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Reply #52 posted 08/31/18 12:27pm

maplenpg

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Lianachan said:

Laughing stock is about right over here, aye.

I've just returned from a holiday in Scotland where my 7 year old loudly and very confidently exclaimed to my (far left) relative that her favourite president was Donald Trump! What a hole to dig myself out of that was.

We are all okay, as long as "we" are the ones living on top of the empire of eternal war. - Jaawwnn
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Reply #53 posted 08/31/18 12:33pm

maplenpg

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deebee said:

I think we live in a moment where there's a high degree of overlap between politics in our countries (mine being the UK). It seems to me that, in both countries, there is:

* a severely ruptured centre-ground consensus within the major parties;
* long-term effects of economic polarisation and insecurity, in the wake of the 2008 crisis and its social costs;
* a democratic event that reflects the crisis of the centre, which the liberal segments of the citizenry, media and political class are scandalised and baffled by (Trump's election in the US; the Brexit vote in the UK);
* a growing right-wing nationalist tendency, which the scandalous event seems to represent;
* a popular Left (social democratic) challenge that also breaks with the status quo, which posits itself (convincingly, in my opinion) as able to take on the right-wing surge, and the economic polarisation that has fueled its rise; and
* a 'tooth and nail' fight by liberal fractions of the political class and media to contain that Left challenge, even if this means unintentionally enabling the Right.


So, I think there's a more or less common set of views on Trump: most people think he's unbearable and sympathise with those he's governing; many of those want to return to 'politics as usual', à la Obama or Blair; some want their own Trump-like figure (opportunistic, crazy-haired Brexiteer Boris Johnson has been meeting with Steve Bannon and trialled a divisive anti-multiculturalist, Islamophobic strategy recently, backed by the right-wing press); and some see an opportunity for a more left-wing politics to emerge, and don't think a return to 'politics as usual' is an option.

We don't have the mass obsession about Russian collusion on the centre-left yet. But the Labour Deputy Leader (a centre-leftist who wants rid of the current leader) did hint at a probe into 'possible Russian interference' in the Brexit vote, the other day - so, give it time.

[Edited 8/29/18 8:33am]

Agree with all of this. I quite like Tom Watson normally, but he does appear to be jumping on the bandwagon with this one.

We are all okay, as long as "we" are the ones living on top of the empire of eternal war. - Jaawwnn
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Reply #54 posted 08/31/18 1:03pm

Lianachan

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maplenpg said:



Lianachan said:


Laughing stock is about right over here, aye.



I've just returned from a holiday in Scotland where my 7 year old loudly and very confidently exclaimed to my (far left) relative that her favourite president was Donald Trump! What a hole to dig myself out of that was.


Favourite currently serving US president I suppose biggrin
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #55 posted 08/31/18 5:03pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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maplenpg said:

Lianachan said:

Laughing stock is about right over here, aye.

I've just returned from a holiday in Scotland where my 7 year old loudly and very confidently exclaimed to my (far left) relative that her favourite president was Donald Trump! What a hole to dig myself out of that was.



Maybe she was thinking of this version


"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Reply #56 posted 08/31/18 6:46pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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To non-Americans, I can guarantee you that this is an anomaly and centered to certain states. It is strictly regional. There are bubbles here and there, but mostly in the midwest. He did not win the popular vote. More people voted against him, and a whole lot of us are now left scratching our heads and wondering what the fuck is going on?
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Reply #57 posted 09/01/18 12:02am

Lianachan

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

To non-Americans, I can guarantee you that this is an anomaly and centered to certain states. It is strictly regional. There are bubbles here and there, but mostly in the midwest. He did not win the popular vote. More people voted against him, and a whole lot of us are now left scratching our heads and wondering what the fuck is going on?


Indeed. I have several American friends and acquaintances, on both sides of the Atlantic, and I don’t know anybody who can stand him and isn’t mortified that he’s the president.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"" ~ Isaac Asimov
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Reply #58 posted 09/02/18 12:00pm

SoulAlive

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Reply #59 posted 09/03/18 10:00am

DiminutiveRock
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SoulAlive said:

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lol

"Families are torn apart, men women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find their parents have gone missing." - Anne Frank
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Forums > Politics & Religion > Non American orgers, how is the Trump craziness playing in your country?