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Thread started 04/01/16 7:09am

Graycap23

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The lawsuit will demand reparations from the governments of Britain, France and the Netherlands

This is LONG overdue.

TONOV/AFP/Getty Images)

The lawsuit will demand reparations from the governments of Britain, France and the Netherlands

Fourteen Caribbean nations haveresolved to sue their former colonizers — Britain, France and the Netherlands — for lingering harms that they attribute to the slave trade.

The AP reports that the leaders of the Caribbean Community, a regional consortium, adopted a 10-point plan that would seek an official apology, a cancelation of debts and assistance for cultural and educational institutions.

The regional consortium has hired British human rights firm Leigh Day to pursue the case. Leigh Day previously secured $21.5 million for Kenyans who were tortured under Britain’s colonial era government.

http://time.com/19528/14-caribbean-nations-sue-former-colonizers-for-slave-trade/

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #1 posted 04/01/16 9:15am

2elijah

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Graycap23 said:

This is LONG overdue.





TONOV/AFP/Getty Images)


The lawsuit will demand reparations from the governments of Britain, France and the Netherlands



Fourteen Caribbean nations haveresolved to sue their former colonizers — Britain, France and the Netherlands — for lingering harms that they attribute to the slave trade.


The AP reports that the leaders of the Caribbean Community, a regional consortium, adopted a 10-point plan that would seek an official apology, a cancelation of debts and assistance for cultural and educational institutions.


The regional consortium has hired British human rights firm Leigh Day to pursue the case. Leigh Day previously secured $21.5 million for Kenyans who were tortured under Britain’s colonial era government.




http://time.com/19528/14-...ave-trade/



Interesting. Will read the article, but it's from 2914. Any followupbon this? There is hardly any discussion about the slave trade in the Caribbean, and it happened there first before the slave trade in America (non-Caribbean). Also the fact that Columbus and his men actually went to the Caribbean and never discovered America, so I still don't get why Americans celebrate that day here, but the latter is for a different topic.


Surprisingly quiet thread. Lol.

Here are a few updated articles from last year:


http://makinghistorymatte...tyPhoto/0/


https://caymannewsservice...icom-vows/
[Edited 4/1/16 11:47am]
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Reply #2 posted 04/01/16 1:09pm

NorthC

It's quiet here because it's nonsense. That's what independence means: you solve your own problems!
[Edited 4/1/16 13:25pm]
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Reply #3 posted 04/01/16 3:56pm

2elijah

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NorthC said:

It's quiet here because it's nonsense. That's what independence means: you solve your own problems!
[Edited 4/1/16 13:25pm]

Poor answer to the topic at hand.
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Reply #4 posted 04/03/16 11:13am

PurpleColossus

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Reparations should always be between the people that were directly involved, not between those had nothing to do with it hundreds of years later. The entire World could be constantly suing each other if we did this.

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Reply #5 posted 04/03/16 11:24am

2elijah

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PurpleColossus said:

Reparations should always be between the people that were directly involved, not between those had nothing to do with it hundreds of years later. The entire World could be constantly suing each other if we did this.


Sure, of course not everyone should receive reparation, but there are people who are alive today in certain countries like America, who were born prior to the when the civil rights act was signed, and when segregation laws were still in effect, and had adult relatives who were discriminated/denied certain rights, because of those laws. As far as the Caribbean nations, leave that decision up to those who had relatives who were discriminated by similar laws, who are elders now. Reparations doesn't always mean money.

Another example, there were many AA families who had property/homes stolen from them during the early 1900s, during race riots, in various parts of America, where they were it really chased out of their homes/towns they lived in, and their descendants are still fighting to obtain that land back. We shall just have to wait and see what becomes of this though.



Very few people know about the below story, besides the race riots in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Rosewood, Florida. Check the link: PBS aired a documentary called 'Banished' on this in the mid 2000s:

http://atlantablackstar.c...nd-murder/
Here is the title of the article about these 8 true stories. Click on the link above to read about it.

"8 Heartbreaking Cases Where Land Was Stolen From Black Americans Through Racism, Violence and Murder"
[Edited 4/3/16 14:11pm]
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Reply #6 posted 04/03/16 11:32am

Graycap23

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PurpleColossus said:

Reparations should always be between the people that were directly involved, not between those had nothing to do with it hundreds of years later. The entire World could be constantly suing each other if we did this.

So the solution is to leave the damage unchanged? Many of the companies that committed these issues still exist and benefit from the crimes while it's victimes still suffer.....generations later.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #7 posted 04/03/16 12:07pm

PurpleColossus

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^ I understand your points, I'm not saying the injustice should be ignored, I just feel that it's wrong to demand reperations for crimes they had nothing to do with...It doesn't seem right to me. Surely there is a better solution than that? I'm all for reparations if it's between the two parties who were directly involved, like what we see in court cases, that way everything is much more clear and defined...Then the individuals who actually comitted the crimes are punished for their actions.

.

I'm just pondering, If you go far back enough in History, every country in the World could demand reparations from others. Doesn't there have to be a limit?

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Reply #8 posted 04/03/16 12:57pm

BobGeorge909

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PurpleColossus said:

^ I understand your points, I'm not saying the injustice should be ignored, I just feel that it's wrong to demand reperations for crimes they had nothing to do with...It doesn't seem right to me. Surely there is a better solution than that? I'm all for reparations if it's between the two parties who were directly involved, like what we see in court cases, that way everything is much more clear and defined...Then the individuals who actually comitted the crimes are punished for their actions.


.


I'm just pondering, If you go far back enough in History, every country in the World could demand reparations from others. Doesn't there have to be a limit?



I somewhat agree with you here. It won't resolve the issue. What is to be considered damages, how will an amount be determined. Who receives the reparations. Will everyone have been damaged equally? Will the funds be distributed equally? It's a costly step into a pit of snakes that won't come close to resolving any issues.

Like if they tried to do reparations in the United States. Will bi-racial people get the same as someone who is essentially mono-racial? I'm Creole, plenty of French and native American 'DNA' in me along with black DNA. Will my 'check' be less then let's say....Leslie Jones' check?(did u see SNL btw last night...Naked & Afraid celebrity edition with Leslie Jones and Peter Dinklage? Wow....HILARIOUS!).

Anyways...I just see it as some big, huge, COSTLY can of worms that will solve next to nothing.
[Edited 4/3/16 12:58pm]
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Reply #9 posted 04/03/16 1:52pm

2elijah

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PurpleColossus said:

^ I understand your points, I'm not saying the injustice should be ignored, I just feel that it's wrong to demand reperations for crimes they had nothing to do with...It doesn't seem right to me. Surely there is a better solution than that? I'm all for reparations if it's between the two parties who were directly involved, like what we see in court cases, that way everything is much more clear and defined...Then the individuals who actually comitted the crimes are punished for their actions.


.


I'm just pondering, If you go far back enough in History, every country in the World could demand reparations from others. Doesn't there have to be a limit?




I gave you examples of people currently alive today who lost property due to racial terrorism, and the property they owned at the time they wanted to leave to their currently, living descendants, but it was stolen from them, and those who were born before the civil rights era, who lived through segregation/discrimination laws, and weren't allowed to vote, etc., and many of them still alive today.
Happy New Year!
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Reply #10 posted 04/03/16 1:53pm

Graycap23

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PurpleColossus said:

^ I understand your points, I'm not saying the injustice should be ignored, I just feel that it's wrong to demand reperations for crimes they had nothing to do with...It doesn't seem right to me. Surely there is a better solution than that? I'm all for reparations if it's between the two parties who were directly involved, like what we see in court cases, that way everything is much more clear and defined...Then the individuals who actually comitted the crimes are punished for their actions.

.

I'm just pondering, If you go far back enough in History, every country in the World could demand reparations from others. Doesn't there have to be a limit?

All valid questions but I find it amusing that logic and fairness always comes into play when money is involved.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #11 posted 04/03/16 2:06pm

2elijah

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BobGeorge909 said:

PurpleColossus said:

^ I understand your points, I'm not saying the injustice should be ignored, I just feel that it's wrong to demand reperations for crimes they had nothing to do with...It doesn't seem right to me. Surely there is a better solution than that? I'm all for reparations if it's between the two parties who were directly involved, like what we see in court cases, that way everything is much more clear and defined...Then the individuals who actually comitted the crimes are punished for their actions.


.


I'm just pondering, If you go far back enough in History, every country in the World could demand reparations from others. Doesn't there have to be a limit?



I somewhat agree with you here. It won't resolve the issue. What is to be considered damages, how will an amount be determined. Who receives the reparations. Will everyone have been damaged equally? Will the funds be distributed equally? It's a costly step into a pit of snakes that won't come close to resolving any issues.

Like if they tried to do reparations in the United States. Will bi-racial people get the same as someone who is essentially mono-racial? I'm Creole, plenty of French and native American 'DNA' in me along with black DNA. Will my 'check' be less then let's say....Leslie Jones' check?(did u see SNL btw last night...Naked & Afraid celebrity edition with Leslie Jones and Peter Dinklage? Wow....HILARIOUS!).

Anyways...I just see it as some big, huge, COSTLY can of worms that will solve next to nothing.
[Edited 4/3/16 12:58pm]


I don't get your point regarding bi-racial vs mono-racial and reparations. You do know that AA's are technically a mixed bunch racially, because of the slave trade, and by American, social standards, most identify as Black Americans or AA Americans. Not to mention, the surnames of the majority of AA Americans/Black Caribbeans, speak for themselves, because truth be told, those surnames are tied to the history and actions of the slavery trade. So it is without question that the majority of Blacks' ancestors were part of the slave trade.

Surnames of Blacks around the world, who have non-African surnames is not a topic discussed much or out loud. I gather many already know why they have them. You have members of both groups with either German, English, French, Irish, Dutch, etc., surnames. Those surnames are not of African descent.

So could you be more specific Bob George? No disrespect to you, of course, just trying to understand your point of view. smile
[Edited 4/3/16 14:27pm]
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Reply #12 posted 04/03/16 3:57pm

PurpleColossus

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2elijah said:

I gave you examples of people currently alive today who lost property due to racial terrorism, and the property they owned at the time they wanted to leave to their currently, living descendants, but it was stolen from them, and those who were born before the civil rights era, who lived through segregation/discrimination laws, and weren't allowed to vote, etc., and many of them still alive today.


I think all legitimate claims of stolen property should be taken seriously. I'm not American but isn't property rights a big part in the Constitution? Obviously they would need to be careful in cases like that with all evidence needed. As for the segregation/discrimination laws, I agree with Bobgeorge, I'm not sure how it would work at this point...

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Reply #13 posted 04/04/16 4:37am

2elijah

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PurpleColossus said:


2elijah said:


I gave you examples of people currently alive today who lost property due to racial terrorism, and the property they owned at the time they wanted to leave to their currently, living descendants, but it was stolen from them, and those who were born before the civil rights era, who lived through segregation/discrimination laws, and weren't allowed to vote, etc., and many of them still alive today.




I think all legitimate claims of stolen property should be taken seriously. I'm not American but isn't property rights a big part in the Constitution? Obviously they would need to be careful in cases like that with all evidence needed. As for the segregation/discrimination laws, I agree with Bobgeorge, I'm not sure how it would work at this point...



If they have all the evidence, documents showing ownership of property, that was stolen, then they have a right to fight for it and get it back. When Japanese were in camps in the U.S. I believe they were given reparations because of discrimination. I think whenever it involves mistreatment many Blacks suffered, in the past, because of laws that specifically barred them from certain freedoms, there always seem to be a downplay or dismissive attitudes, towards those actions. And quite frankly as far as Bobgeorge's DNA, well his is no different than the millions of Black Americans/Black Caribbeans walking around with similar DNA, and that could be proven as fact, if every Black American or Black Caribbean were to take a DNA test, regardless of how light or dark-completed they are.
[Edited 4/4/16 6:36am]
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Reply #14 posted 04/04/16 5:09am

Graycap23

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2elijah said:

PurpleColossus said:


I think all legitimate claims of stolen property should be taken seriously. I'm not American but isn't property rights a big part in the Constitution? Obviously they would need to be careful in cases like that with all evidence needed. As for the segregation/discrimination laws, I agree with Bobgeorge, I'm not sure how it would work at this point...

If they have all the evidence, documents showing ownership of property, that was stolen, then they have a right to fight for it and get it back. When Japanese were in camps in the U.S. I believe they were given reparations because of discrimination. I think whenever it involves mistreatment many Blacks suffered, in the past, because of laws that specifically barred them from certain freedoms, there always seem to be a downplay or dismissive attitudes, towards those actions.

Exactly.

Black Wallstreet comes to mind.

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Reply #15 posted 04/04/16 6:19am

2elijah

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Graycap23 said:



2elijah said:


PurpleColossus said:




I think all legitimate claims of stolen property should be taken seriously. I'm not American but isn't property rights a big part in the Constitution? Obviously they would need to be careful in cases like that with all evidence needed. As for the segregation/discrimination laws, I agree with Bobgeorge, I'm not sure how it would work at this point...



If they have all the evidence, documents showing ownership of property, that was stolen, then they have a right to fight for it and get it back. When Japanese were in camps in the U.S. I believe they were given reparations because of discrimination. I think whenever it involves mistreatment many Blacks suffered, in the past, because of laws that specifically barred them from certain freedoms, there always seem to be a downplay or dismissive attitudes, towards those actions.

Exactly.


Black Wallstreet comes to mind.



Exactly. Those communities had planes bombing their communities, and their personal belongings and property stolen, some lynched/murdered, and many chased out of their communities with barely clothes on their backs, from racists who chased them off their property. Reparations should have been paid to those surviving members or their descendants for the trauma the victims and families who lost family members because of that tragedy. It's all documented in American history.
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Reply #16 posted 04/04/16 6:40am

PurpleColossus

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2elijah said:

PurpleColossus said:


I think all legitimate claims of stolen property should be taken seriously. I'm not American but isn't property rights a big part in the Constitution? Obviously they would need to be careful in cases like that with all evidence needed. As for the segregation/discrimination laws, I agree with Bobgeorge, I'm not sure how it would work at this point...

If they have all the evidence, documents showing ownership of property, that was stolen, then they have a right to fight for it and get it back. When Japanese were in camps in the U.S. I believe they were given reparations because of discrimination. I think whenever it involves mistreatment many Blacks suffered, in the past, because of laws that specifically barred them from certain freedoms, there always seem to be a downplay or dismissive attitudes, towards those actions.

I agree that if someone has evidence that their property was stolen then they do have the right to fight and get it back. As I stated, that kind of case should be taken seriously.

.

I don't think people downplay or are dismissive of anything? Anyways, my entire philisophy is that any kind of reparations should only punish individuals who comitted the crime, anything other than that is an injustice. If one can target the indviduals who actually comitted the crime, then by all means go for it. Speaking for myself, I'm not a designated pleader for any race...That would be my answer for the people of Europe/Africa/Asia.

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Reply #17 posted 04/04/16 7:06am

Graycap23

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PurpleColossus said:

2elijah said:

PurpleColossus said: If they have all the evidence, documents showing ownership of property, that was stolen, then they have a right to fight for it and get it back. When Japanese were in camps in the U.S. I believe they were given reparations because of discrimination. I think whenever it involves mistreatment many Blacks suffered, in the past, because of laws that specifically barred them from certain freedoms, there always seem to be a downplay or dismissive attitudes, towards those actions.

I agree that if someone has evidence that their property was stolen then they do have the right to fight and get it back. As I stated, that kind of case should be taken seriously.

.

I don't think people downplay or are dismissive of anything? Anyways, my entire philisophy is that any kind of reparations should only punish individuals who comitted the crime, anything other than that is an injustice. If one can target the indviduals who actually comitted the crime, then by all means go for it. Speaking for myself, I'm not a designated pleader for any race...That would be my answer for the people of Europe/Africa/Asia.

Companies commit crimes................and there are plenty of companies still reaping benefits from those crimes.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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Reply #18 posted 04/04/16 7:32am

2elijah

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PurpleColossus said:



2elijah said:


PurpleColossus said:




I think all legitimate claims of stolen property should be taken seriously. I'm not American but isn't property rights a big part in the Constitution? Obviously they would need to be careful in cases like that with all evidence needed. As for the segregation/discrimination laws, I agree with Bobgeorge, I'm not sure how it would work at this point...



If they have all the evidence, documents showing ownership of property, that was stolen, then they have a right to fight for it and get it back. When Japanese were in camps in the U.S. I believe they were given reparations because of discrimination. I think whenever it involves mistreatment many Blacks suffered, in the past, because of laws that specifically barred them from certain freedoms, there always seem to be a downplay or dismissive attitudes, towards those actions.


I agree that if someone has evidence that their property was stolen then they do have the right to fight and get it back. As I stated, that kind of case should be taken seriously.


.


I don't think people downplay or are dismissive of anything? Anyways, my entire philisophy is that any kind of reparations should only punish individuals who comitted the crime, anything other than that is an injustice. If one can target the indviduals who actually comitted the crime, then by all means go for it. Speaking for myself, I'm not a designated pleader for any race...That would be my answer for the people of Europe/Africa/Asia.



Not all individuals who took part in those criminal or discriminatory acts can be found or are still alive. Which is why reparations are sought from companies who took part in discriminatory acts or a government, fully aware of laws passed justifying discriminatory acts, towards specific groups, such as, segregation/Jim Crow/Black codes' laws.
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Reply #19 posted 04/04/16 8:13am

PurpleColossus

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^^ I understand , I think the biggest problem is these issues should have been dealt with at the time they occured...Because as more time passes the more difficult/complicated it becomes to resolve these issues as Bobgeorge previous post alluded to.

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Reply #20 posted 04/04/16 9:40am

2elijah

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PurpleColossus said:

^^ I understand , I think the biggest problem is these issues should have been dealt with at the time they occured...Because as more time passes the more difficult/complicated it becomes to resolve these issues as Bobgeorge previous post alluded to.



It's not really complicated. The Tulsa Oklahoma race riots, for example, and those Blacks chased off their property in various towns in America, due to racists who stole their personal property and homes, should have received compensation. It's documented info. There are a few still alive, although elderly, and, whose family members have been fighting to have that property returned to their families.


I don't believe it could not have been resolved at the time, because the racist mentality, racial discrimination and racial ignorance towards Blacks, regardless of abolishment of slavery laws/Jim Crow/segregation laws, post civil rights act being signed, racial discrimination/unfair and unequal treatment, in various sectors of society , still existed. We've made bandaid progress since then. Very few non-Blacks paid for those past crimes against Blacks, but many Blacks pay for crimes against Blacks.


This whole situation is bigger than these actual events pinpointed, and goes beyond America. Can anything be done? Well, it's not impossible. In the below article, Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, including 'family members,' were awarded funds.

http://nypost.com/2014/12...-60m-fund/


This American Indian group received this fund:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/1...ent/



[Edited 4/4/16 10:07am]
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Reply #21 posted 04/04/16 11:39am

PurpleColossus

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^ I can see you have taken the time to study this subject alot wink ...I think reparation cases are not always a clear cut issue, that's why today we still so many unresolved reparation cases around the world. Every case is different and has it's own set of issues to overcome. I honestly feel bad for anyone who's lost their property or home, and I do hope there is some resolution for them. It doesn't matter what race someone is either, my main point is - punish the guilty, not the innocent..If that can't happen then maybe there can be alternative solutions developed that help everyone instead?

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Reply #22 posted 04/04/16 1:15pm

morningsong

http://www.theatlantic.co...ns/361631/

The Case for Reparations

Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.



It goes way beyond slavery. My children are the first to be born in the absence of Laws separating them from full citizenship rights. Personally, I wish the issue would evaporate into thin air, but it can't.

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Reply #23 posted 04/04/16 2:36pm

2elijah

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PurpleColossus said:

^ I can see you have taken the time to study this subject alot wink ...I think reparation cases are not always a clear cut issue, that's why today we still so many unresolved reparation cases around the world. Every case is different and has it's own set of issues to overcome. I honestly feel bad for anyone who's lost their property or home, and I do hope there is some resolution for them. It doesn't matter what race someone is either, my main point is - punish the guilty, not the innocent..If that can't happen then maybe there can be alternative solutions developed that help everyone instead?


You mean well, but even the families who had presented some documents proving ownership of stolen property still have a hard time obtaining their property. Deeds were sold to new owners illegally over the years. It also turns out those towns don't allow homes/property to be sold to Blacks. I was shocked in 2008 when I saw that documentary, that that kind of real estate racism is even allowed in this present day. Not sure if that changed in those towns since 2008.

Those stories were presented in the PBS documentary 'Banished'. You can still find the article online. There hasn't been a followup documentary on it since.

Here's the link if you're interested.

http://www.pbs.org/indepe.../banished/
[Edited 4/4/16 15:57pm]
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Reply #24 posted 04/04/16 2:41pm

2elijah

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morningsong said:

http://www.theatlantic.co...ns/361631/


The Case for Reparations


Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.




It goes way beyond slavery. My children are the first to be born in the absence of Laws separating them from full citizenship rights. Personally, I wish the issue would evaporate into thin air, but it can't.


Thanks for that link. If it came down to receiving reparations, it would be difficult as to point out what year would be a cut'off point, because unfortunately, there are still discrimination practices going on throughout America towards Blacks, and housing discrimination is still one of them, even though racist laws that were made legal at one time, no longer exists.
[Edited 4/9/16 4:14am]
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Reply #25 posted 04/09/16 1:09am

hausofmoi7

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interesting.
The mascarene islands where I was born seems to always play down or outright deny the African slave trade. Many don't even know they are decendants of slaves or how they came to speak creole-patois (French).
Part of that is due to denial about African ancestry.
Anyway as a result they have whitewashed the history of the Islands and its European founders.



.
[Edited 4/9/16 1:10am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #26 posted 04/12/16 1:40pm

morningsong

.

[Edited 4/12/16 13:41pm]

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Reply #27 posted 04/19/16 8:43am

andyf

Graycap23 said:This is LONG overdue. TONOV/AFP/Getty Images) The lawsuit will demand reparations from the governments of Britain, France and the Netherlands Fourteen Caribbean nations haveresolved to sue their former colonizers — Britain, France and the Netherlands — for lingering harms that they attribute to the slave trade. The AP reports that the leaders of the Caribbean Community, a regional consortium, adopted a 10-point plan that would seek an official apology, a cancelation of debts and assistance for cultural and educational institutions. The regional consortium has hired British human rights firm Leigh Day to pursue the case. Leigh Day previously secured $21.5 million for Kenyans who were tortured under Britain’s colonial era government.Yup, pay the victims. Don't ask any country to pay the victims, but ask the super-rich (who more often than not are linked to governments in any case). Ask the super-rich, the super-rich from wherever they may be (and the super-rich are from every culture). They can afford it and they are causing all these problems in the first place. Don't punish 'em. Just ask 'em to pay out....and don't let the victims turn into the perpertrators because unfortunately this is happening too. Truly a mad world.Btw, as Prince wrote: "what is the truth?". The truth is the truth and I am wary of defining what the truth might or might not do. http://time.com/19528/14-...ave-trade/
--------
"Someone who makes you laugh when you wanna cry"
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Reply #28 posted 04/19/16 9:14am

OnlyNDaUsa

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I think this and all other similar ideas are horrible ideas that will have terrible consequences. And it will have very little lasting positive affect on the people who receive the windfall.

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #29 posted 04/20/16 5:29am

Graycap23

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

I think this and all other similar ideas are horrible ideas that will have terrible consequences. And it will have very little lasting positive affect on the people who receive the windfall.

eek

Of course you do.

FOOLS multiply when WISE Men & Women are silent.
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