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Thread started 06/20/12 6:03am

kiasheri

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who reads the bible???

i am in another forum trying to explain why God lets bad thigs happen to good people. throughout the bible Jehovah has allowed good and bad people die becuse he know he can ressurect (sp) them. and, Jesus preached from door-to-door just like the witnesses do.

I want everybody 2 make it in2 PARADISE!!!!!!!
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Reply #1 posted 06/20/12 6:22am

seekingtruth

The idea that "God allows" bad things to happen to good people is a bit of a misunderstanding of God from the very get go.

First, to make this assertion, you have to presume that "bad things" are defined in the physical realm.

Let's take somebody who is dying a slow, painful death. That, according to our very finite understanding, is horrible and atrocious. In the scheme of spiritual existence, and eternity for that matter, this could be somewhat irrelevant.

God, through Jesus, taught of a Spiritual Kingdom. He taught that the things in the phyiscal realm were all secondary to that of the spiritual. With that type of focus in mind, "good" and "bad" have to be determined within the realms of spiritual condition, not phyiscal.

Some of the most joyful people I have ever known are those who have been through the most adversity.

As far as Jesus going door-to-door like the witnesses......that is a stretch. He had specific appointments in mind with his "house visits", not drawing up a tally (not meant in a disrespectful way to witnesses)

True genius is knowing how little
you really know.
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Reply #2 posted 06/20/12 5:22pm

IanRG

kiasheri said:

i am in another forum trying to explain why God lets bad thigs happen to good people. throughout the bible Jehovah has allowed good and bad people die becuse he know he can ressurect (sp) them. and, Jesus preached from door-to-door just like the witnesses do.

There are three ways to answer this

From the title: I read the Bible. I read a number of translations and refer back to the original Greek and Hebrew. I have read the NWT version. It is shockingly bad. It adds words, changes words, changes meaning by footnotes etc. This is not surprising - it was written by 4 JWs, only 1 of whom had any tertiary qualifications in the field (and this was incomplete). Where the changes were made they were to push the doctrinal changes made by the Watchtower org because their views were becoming less and less Christian and more and more inconsistent with the Bible they were using.

From the body of your post: Understanding why bad things happen is one of the trickiest issues in theology. Indeed, in my course it was where we started on day 1 lesson 1. We started with an excerpt from a book by a holocaust survivor where he told of when he and all the internees were forced to watch an execution of some of them including a child. In a fit of anger he asked the person beside him where was God now. The person replied that God was right there with the child. The point of this and a major point of so many of the Bible stories is that God does not merely stand back and allow things to happen, he is with us whilst they happen. He is there to help us, to carry us, to guide us. He certainly is not sitting idlely by until the JWs get there act together and finish the door knocking process. To me God is like a parent - As parents we could seek to prevent things from happening to our children but by doing so they would not be free to experience life, to learn from mistakes, to handle the ups and the downs - No one would ever get the chance to grow into being the best that they can be.

But within this there is the risks of life - people do bad things, accidents happen, sometimes we are in the wrong place at the wrong time. For example the marsquakes and eruptions that formed Olympus Mons and the Tharsis Bulge were just spectacular natural events that created awesome structures. If we were there when they happened they would be monumental disasters beyond belief. These events mean that sometimes we are not able to become the best we can be.

The final answer is the reason you are stuggling in that thread is that the bad thing your are trying to excuse as just a thing God allows to happen is child sexual abuse by JWs and the covering up of this abuse by the Watchtower org. This is a poor answer to a horrible problem. This type of answer will perpetuate sexual abuse within the JWs.

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Reply #3 posted 06/20/12 5:27pm

babynoz

kiasheri said:

i am in another forum trying to explain why God lets bad thigs happen to good people. throughout the bible Jehovah has allowed good and bad people die becuse he know he can ressurect (sp) them. and, Jesus preached from door-to-door just like the witnesses do.

Really? When did that happen?

Prince, in you I found a kindred spirit...Rest In Paradise.
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Reply #4 posted 06/20/12 11:30pm

danzakairos

Why do bad things happen to good people that's a loaded question.... What determines that a person is good? Most people think that a good person is one who helps others or is kind to everyone. But these are outward expressions, what's in the heart of that person is what God sees. If our hearts are stored with with bad things we are not good...

Someone can seem to everyone to be the sweetest person they ever met, but that person could have a very ugly heart, full of jealousy,anger,hatered,lust, the list goes on, A.K.A (Sins) and sooner or later what comes from the heart will surface through the mouth.

Jesus said it very well when he said: What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" Matthew 15:11

and:The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. Luke 6:45

Then there is the fact that often times it is not God allowing a bad thing to happen to someone, it is their own actions or lack of actions however that allows things to happen to them. We cannot always think God is allowing it or the enemy is making me do this or that, we need to be responsible for our actions then there is the truth of what is really happening. God is always there to help us, if we allow him to.

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Reply #5 posted 06/20/12 11:42pm

toejam

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kiasheri said:
who reads the bible???


Me. But why should I believe it?

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Reply #6 posted 06/21/12 12:28am

toejam

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danzakairos said:

Why do bad things happen to good people that's a loaded question.... What determines that a person is good? Most people think that a good person is one who helps others or is kind to everyone.

I disagree. "Helping others" and being "kind to everyone" are attributes that would influence me to determine the "goodness" of someone, provided I was confident they weren't doing those things simply for personal gain at the expense of someone else. We are all free to determine who is "good" and who is not, and thankfully, the vast majority of us agree on many principles of "goodness" - "helping others" etc. being a common reason to consider someone "good" etc. Sure, we can make mistakes, but it's practical to do this. Otherwise if we are not allowed to determine a person's "goodness", well then let's all just allow murderers to murder people!! Who are we to determine that they are not good??!! wink

But these are outward expressions, what's in the heart of that person is what God sees. If our hearts are stored with with bad things we are not good...


So God judges people based on "what's in their heart" and not their actions? I'm sure the vast majority of us think we are "good" people deep down in our "hearts".

Someone can seem to everyone to be the sweetest person they ever met, but that person could have a very ugly heart, full of jealousy,anger,hatered,lust, the list goes on, A.K.A (Sins) and sooner or later what comes from the heart will surface through the mouth.


We all make mistakes, yes. But don't mistake "mistakes" for Christian "sins". That is one of the greatest tricks religions love to pull - preying on people's guilt. If someone is the "sweetest person" one has ever met, then there's nothing wrong with one crediting them as such. If they later turn and do something "not sweet", then there's nothing wrong with changing one's opinion. But none of this demonstrates your ideas about pure/ugly "hearts". We all try our best to do what we think is right at any given moment in time I suspect.

Then there is the fact that often times it is not God allowing a bad thing to happen to someone, it is their own actions or lack of actions however that allows things to happen to them.

What about innocent victims, such as child molestation victims? Was it their own "actions" or "lack of actions" that allowed those things to happen to them?

We cannot always think God is allowing it or the enemy is making me do this or that, we need to be responsible for our actions then there is the truth of what is really happening. God is always there to help us, if we allow him to.


So why doesn't God help amputees grow back new limbs? Are you saying that every single amputee throughout all of history simply "didn't allow him to"?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #7 posted 06/22/12 1:56pm

duccichucka

Asking who reads the Bible is like asking who reads Cat in the Hat?

Both are works of fiction that contain subjectively interpreted truths

based upon a humanly conceived yet skewed hermeneutic.

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Reply #8 posted 06/22/12 7:42pm

TemetNosce

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IanRG said:

...a major point of so many of the Bible stories is that God does not merely stand back and allow things to happen, he is with us whilst they happen.

Is "he" all-powerful, or not?

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Reply #9 posted 06/23/12 3:03am

IanRG

TemetNosce said:

IanRG said:

The point of this and a major point of so many of the Bible stories is that God does not merely stand back and allow things to happen, he is with us whilst they happen. He is there to help us, to carry us, to guide us. He certainly is not sitting idlely by until the JWs get there act together and finish the door knocking process. To me God is like a parent - As parents we could seek to prevent things from happening to our children but by doing so they would not be free to experience life, to learn from mistakes, to handle the ups and the downs - No one would ever get the chance to grow into being the best that they can be.

Is "he" all-powerful, or not?

When you put the whole quote back together this tired old line has already been answered.

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Reply #10 posted 06/23/12 5:51am

duccichucka

Ian, I think there is inherently a problem with ultimately conceiving

of God as a parent. Up until a point, you have to hold God accountable

for either the evil that exists in the world (I've seen arguments that

would explain that evil exists because God wishes us to choose what

is good; that if God was to force good upon us, then the special value

attached to goodness is removed and our conception of free will or

determinism is removed as well) but then that means that God is either

responsible for the evil, and/or it is a part of God's nature (there are

problems that result from this as well, but too lengthy for the purpose

of this post) but even more disconcerting is the problem of natural

violence.

And by natural violence, I mean earthquakes, which are outside the

workings of humankind, plaques,etc.; and even more disconcerting in

regards to natural violence, the way that certain animal species must

resort to consuming other animal species in order to survive. This

problem alone confuses me about worshipping a god of love; if God

indeed is the cosmic creator of this earth and allowed it to developed

as it has, then God must be held accountable for a lions' existence

to be predicated on consuming antelopes - that is not inherently evil,

but it is inherently violent.

That is why I have a problem with conceiving of God as a parent. My

parents did not have to live physically violent in order to teach me

how to live in love, or as a member of a community.

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Reply #11 posted 06/23/12 7:24am

mimric

duccichucka said:

Ian, I think there is inherently a problem with ultimately conceiving

of God as a parent. Up until a point, you have to hold God accountable

for either the evil that exists in the world (I've seen arguments that

would explain that evil exists because God wishes us to choose what

is good; that if God was to force good upon us, then the special value

attached to goodness is removed and our conception of free will or

determinism is removed as well) but then that means that God is either

responsible for the evil, and/or it is a part of God's nature (there are

problems that result from this as well, but too lengthy for the purpose

of this post) but even more disconcerting is the problem of natural

violence.

And by natural violence, I mean earthquakes, which are outside the

workings of humankind, plaques,etc.; and even more disconcerting in

regards to natural violence, the way that certain animal species must

resort to consuming other animal species in order to survive. This

problem alone confuses me about worshipping a god of love; if God

indeed is the cosmic creator of this earth and allowed it to developed

as it has, then God must be held accountable for a lions' existence

to be predicated on consuming antelopes - that is not inherently evil,

but it is inherently violent.

That is why I have a problem with conceiving of God as a parent. My

parents did not have to live physically violent in order to teach me

how to live in love, or as a member of a community.

If I may attempt to shine a little light on this subject, not that my oppion counts, I think this whole subject of god & evil is being misunderstood, first God is not responsible for evil we are, he has given us standards that if were followed our lives would b a lot better. Thats reegardless of religion. Second The whole downward spiral started with Satan who was a perfect spirit creature who developed a desire for glory, just because one is perfect does not mean they cannot entertain a thought that if not kept in check grows into a wrong desire even then you don't have to act upon it. Third once he acted & got Adam & Eve to act than sin entered through Adam & that also led to a lot of questions that developed through their situation and it was clearly seen in Jobs case. Do we as humans need God for guidance or can we rule ourselves, do we serve God selfishly or out of love, doe god have the right to rule, is he holding us back from our greatest potential ETC. He is giving us the opportunity to prove him wrong thats why he allows suffering, we as humans have not been able to establish a system of governance that can effectively & perfectly erradicate all the crime, suffering, sickness, equality & ultimately death that gods Kingdom purposes to do.including bring imperfect mankind back to a perfect state. Thats what the goodnews of the Kingdom is all about which by means of Jesus ransom sacrifice has already set in motion. S while we as pathetic humans try without Gods guidance he has already set things in motion to take place in due time & yes destroying all these man made governments & those who refuse to put his kingdom first & also destroying Satan is a part of it. Anyone has a better explaination of this pathetic world let me know Ill consider it.

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Reply #12 posted 06/23/12 8:30am

toejam

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mimric said:

If I may attempt to shine a little light on this subject, not that my oppion counts, I think this whole subject of god & evil is being misunderstood, first God is not responsible for evil we are, he has given us standards that if were followed our lives would b a lot better. Thats reegardless of religion. Second The whole downward spiral started with Satan who was a perfect spirit creature who developed a desire for glory, just because one is perfect does not mean they cannot entertain a thought that if not kept in check grows into a wrong desire even then you don't have to act upon it. Third once he acted & got Adam & Eve to act than sin entered through Adam & that also led to a lot of questions that developed through their situation and it was clearly seen in Jobs case. Do we as humans need God for guidance or can we rule ourselves, do we serve God selfishly or out of love, doe god have the right to rule, is he holding us back from our greatest potential ETC. He is giving us the opportunity to prove him wrong thats why he allows suffering, we as humans have not been able to establish a system of governance that can effectively & perfectly erradicate all the crime, suffering, sickness, equality & ultimately death that gods Kingdom purposes to do.including bring imperfect mankind back to a perfect state. Thats what the goodnews of the Kingdom is all about which by means of Jesus ransom sacrifice has already set in motion. S while we as pathetic humans try without Gods guidance he has already set things in motion to take place in due time & yes destroying all these man made governments & those who refuse to put his kingdom first & also destroying Satan is a part of it.

What evidence do you have to demonstrate these things to be true? Why should we believe it?

Anyone has a better explaination of this pathetic world let me know Ill consider it.

Here's one: Perhaps there is no God, and we simply live in a universe where shit happens. But on the other hand, love also exists in this universe, so all is not lost. So let's just try our best to spread that as best we can, even if there is no afterlife, and even if shit continues to happen.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #13 posted 06/23/12 10:09am

mimric

toejam said:

mimric said:

If I may attempt to shine a little light on this subject, not that my oppion counts, I think this whole subject of god & evil is being misunderstood, first God is not responsible for evil we are, he has given us standards that if were followed our lives would b a lot better. Thats reegardless of religion. Second The whole downward spiral started with Satan who was a perfect spirit creature who developed a desire for glory, just because one is perfect does not mean they cannot entertain a thought that if not kept in check grows into a wrong desire even then you don't have to act upon it. Third once he acted & got Adam & Eve to act than sin entered through Adam & that also led to a lot of questions that developed through their situation and it was clearly seen in Jobs case. Do we as humans need God for guidance or can we rule ourselves, do we serve God selfishly or out of love, doe god have the right to rule, is he holding us back from our greatest potential ETC. He is giving us the opportunity to prove him wrong thats why he allows suffering, we as humans have not been able to establish a system of governance that can effectively & perfectly erradicate all the crime, suffering, sickness, equality & ultimately death that gods Kingdom purposes to do.including bring imperfect mankind back to a perfect state. Thats what the goodnews of the Kingdom is all about which by means of Jesus ransom sacrifice has already set in motion. S while we as pathetic humans try without Gods guidance he has already set things in motion to take place in due time & yes destroying all these man made governments & those who refuse to put his kingdom first & also destroying Satan is a part of it.

What evidence do you have to demonstrate these things to be true? Why should we believe it?

Anyone has a better explaination of this pathetic world let me know Ill consider it.

Here's one: Perhaps there is no God, and we simply live in a universe where shit happens. But on the other hand, love also exists in this universe, so all is not lost. So let's just try our best to spread that as best we can, even if there is no afterlife, and even if shit continues to happen.

Well its not up to me to convince any1 to believe one way or the other, I would not even try. If you believe other wise its your choice, all I do is speak from scripture which bascially explains our plight very simply as far as I'm concerned. I would never believe we came into existence by sum freak cosmic accident, creation heavenly & earthly is to complex to believe that, just the complex intricacy it takes to move a finger tells me otherwise. I believe & I have faith that things will not always be the way they are sooner or later & I will die, if I have to or if it happens, with that hope. Even if by minute chance I'm wrong i would rather die with hope than die knowing as humans we will never b more than the pathetic, greedy, hateful, ununified, sickly, harsch, nothing but death insight balls of clay we are now. I have the hope of a future totally opposite of that right here on earth. Take your pick of which the future you want, I choose the latter.

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Reply #14 posted 06/23/12 10:29am

prittypriss

mimric, how would you explain these verses?

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6 - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Exodus 4:11 - "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

At the very onset of the creation of "good", "evil" is automatically created. At the very onset of the creation of "light", "darkness" is automatically created. At the very onset of the creation of "heaven", "hell" is automatically created. (I do not believe "heaven" nor "hell" are actual places.) You cannot have "good" without the existence "bad" (or evil). You cannot have "light" without the existence of "dark". You cannot have "heaven" with the existence of "hell". One automatically implies the other. They are two sides of one coin. So, yes, God created all that is good, but in doing so, he created all that is bad.

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Reply #15 posted 06/23/12 10:41am

SensualMelody

prittypriss said:

mimric, how would you explain these verses?

Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Amos 3:6 - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Exodus 4:11 - "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

At the very onset of the creation of "good", "evil" is automatically created. At the very onset of the creation of "light", "darkness" is automatically created. At the very onset of the creation of "heaven", "hell" is automatically created. (I do not believe "heaven" nor "hell" are actual places.) You cannot have "good" without the existence "bad" (or evil). You cannot have "light" without the existence of "dark". You cannot have "heaven" with the existence of "hell". One automatically implies the other. They are two sides of one coin. So, yes, God created all that is good, but in doing so, he created all that is bad.

been so long since I've been here... just needed to borrow some emoticons. But while I am here..... Yes, Jehovah is at times an executioner. Then he does cause calamity, but never without a warning and never undeserved. When random acts of misfortune occur, they are not from God, but a consequence of living in a corrupt world run by God's adversary and sometimes caused by man himself. God promises to replace this system with a righteous new one, and yes at that time he will cause "evil" to those who choose to ignore the warnings and who put themselves in harm's way. Look out! eek

[Edited 6/23/12 10:49am]

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #16 posted 06/23/12 1:50pm

2freaky4church
1

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It's not about reading it but what it actually says, or doesn't say. Do they get the plain ideal that aligory plays a large part in what is read. Myth as well.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #17 posted 06/23/12 4:47pm

aardvark15

When I was little I was an ignorant Christian, then I read the bible. Changed my beliefs then and then.

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Reply #18 posted 06/23/12 6:03pm

toejam

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mimric said:

Well its not up to me to convince any1 to believe one way or the other, I would not even try.


Why bother poster here then if you didn't want people to at least consider your statements?

If you believe other wise its your choice, all I do is speak from scripture which bascially explains our plight very simply as far as I'm concerned.


The scripture gives an explanation... but is it a true explanation? That is the question. If you think it is, how do you know this? I don't "choose" to disbelieve the scripture, in the same way that you and I both don't "choose" to disbelieve that we live in The Matrix. We simply aren't convinced that there's sufficient evidence to hold that belief. It is in this way that I and many others are not convinced that there's sufficient evidence to hold belief in the scripture (at least not its supernatural claims). It's not a "choice", but an outcome of acquired information.

I would never believe we came into existence by sum freak cosmic accident


Good. Neither do I. There are consistently measurable (i.e. not "accidental") processes that allow the conditions suitable for life to emerge and evolve. It's no "accident", even if there never wasn't any conscious intention behind it all. We wouldn't say it's "sum freak cosmic accident" that rain falls to the ground, we can simply say that gravity pulls the rain towards the Earth. No accident.

I believe & I have faith that things will not always be the way they are sooner or later & I will die, if I have to or if it happens, with that hope.


Fair enough. I also believe that things will not always "be the way they are" and that one day I will die also. But in this time that I am alive, I want to try my best to determine what is true and what is not. So even if it is a nice comforting story, I can't bring myself to live with "that hope" unless I am convinced that there's reason to believe that it is anything more than simply wishful thinking.

Even if by minute chance I'm wrong i would rather die with hope than die knowing as humans we will never b more than the pathetic, greedy, hateful, ununified, sickly, harsch, nothing but death insight balls of clay we are now. I have the hope of a future totally opposite of that right here on earth. Take your pick of which the future you want, I choose the latter.

Well, I don't think humans are as "pathetic, greedy, hateful, ununified, sickly, harsh, nothing but death insight balls of clay" as you're making out. In fact, I feel quite sorry for someone who feels that way sad. Perhaps I'm just slightly more optimistic. Yes, humans aren't perfect. Yes, we make mistakes. But hey, the way I look at it is this: Love exists. Let's just do our best to spread as much of that in the short time that we are here!

[Edited 6/23/12 18:05pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #19 posted 06/23/12 6:14pm

IanRG

duccichucka said:

IanRG said:

From the body of your post: Understanding why bad things happen is one of the trickiest issues in theology. Indeed, in my course it was where we started on day 1 lesson 1. We started with an excerpt from a book by a holocaust survivor where he told of when he and all the internees were forced to watch an execution of some of them including a child. In a fit of anger he asked the person beside him where was God now. The person replied that God was right there with the child. The point of this and a major point of so many of the Bible stories is that God does not merely stand back and allow things to happen, he is with us whilst they happen. He is there to help us, to carry us, to guide us. He certainly is not sitting idlely by until the JWs get there act together and finish the door knocking process. To me God is like a parent - As parents we could seek to prevent things from happening to our children but by doing so they would not be free to experience life, to learn from mistakes, to handle the ups and the downs - No one would ever get the chance to grow into being the best that they can be.

But within this there is the risks of life - people do bad things, accidents happen, sometimes we are in the wrong place at the wrong time. For example the marsquakes and eruptions that formed Olympus Mons and the Tharsis Bulge were just spectacular natural events that created awesome structures. If we were there when they happened they would be monumental disasters beyond belief. These events mean that sometimes we are not able to become the best we can be.

Ian, I think there is inherently a problem with ultimately conceiving of God as a parent. Up until a point, you have to hold God accountable for either the evil that exists in the world (I've seen arguments that would explain that evil exists because God wishes us to choose what is good; that if God was to force good upon us, then the special value attached to goodness is removed and our conception of free will or determinism is removed as well) but then that means that God is either responsible for the evil, and/or it is a part of God's nature (there are problems that result from this as well, but too lengthy for the purpose of this post)

How do you hold God accountable, what court will enforce this?

God gave us free will - the will to freely choose to do what is the right thing and to do what is wrong (not the ridiculous suggestion that freewill includes being free to will the impossible). We do the same thing with our children. Initially we do all for them and accept everything they do. As they mature - and I am talking about within the first few months - we start to teach them what is right from what is wrong. As the training develops we let our children choose more and more how they will act and what they want to do. Our success or failure is whether our children better themselves so that they can take our place for the next generation. When society measures the success or failure of our parenting they don't say that the parents of the child sexual abuser should have stepped in and stopped the abuse, society first blames the abuser - because it is the abuser that is accountable. If they blame the parents, they blame them for not teaching them right from wrong and how to act. My abuser's parents were not responsible for the abuse he did. I have no reason to suspect that is part of his parent's nature to sexually abuse children. In the same way evil acts by people are a consequence of God giving us free will, that does not allow us to pass back the blame for these acts to God.

... but even more disconcerting is the problem of natural violence. And by natural violence, I mean earthquakes, which are outside the workings of humankind, plaques,etc.; and even more disconcerting in regards to natural violence, the way that certain animal species must resort to consuming other animal species in order to survive. This problem alone confuses me about worshipping a god of love; if God indeed is the cosmic creator of this earth and allowed it to developed as it has, then God must be held accountable for a lions' existence to be predicated on consuming antelopes - that is not inherently evil, but it is inherently violent.

That is why I have a problem with conceiving of God as a parent. My parents did not have to live physically violent in order to teach me how to live in love, or as a member of a community.

With life there is death and this death feeds life. With the process of life and death there is the development of life that leads to us and beyond. With the violent death of Jesus and His resurrection we have the possibility of eternal life if we choose to properly learn right from wrong. Learning to live in love and as a member of a community is a growth out of us learning from our parents and from God.

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Reply #20 posted 06/23/12 6:29pm

IanRG

mimric said:

duccichucka said:

Ian, I think there is inherently a problem with ultimately conceiving

of God as a parent. Up until a point, you have to hold God accountable

for either the evil that exists in the world (I've seen arguments that

would explain that evil exists because God wishes us to choose what

is good; that if God was to force good upon us, then the special value

attached to goodness is removed and our conception of free will or

determinism is removed as well) but then that means that God is either

responsible for the evil, and/or it is a part of God's nature (there are

problems that result from this as well, but too lengthy for the purpose

of this post) but even more disconcerting is the problem of natural

violence.

And by natural violence, I mean earthquakes, which are outside the

workings of humankind, plaques,etc.; and even more disconcerting in

regards to natural violence, the way that certain animal species must

resort to consuming other animal species in order to survive. This

problem alone confuses me about worshipping a god of love; if God

indeed is the cosmic creator of this earth and allowed it to developed

as it has, then God must be held accountable for a lions' existence

to be predicated on consuming antelopes - that is not inherently evil,

but it is inherently violent.

That is why I have a problem with conceiving of God as a parent. My

parents did not have to live physically violent in order to teach me

how to live in love, or as a member of a community.

If I may attempt to shine a little light on this subject, not that my oppion counts, I think this whole subject of god & evil is being misunderstood, first God is not responsible for evil we are, he has given us standards that if were followed our lives would b a lot better. Thats reegardless of religion. Second The whole downward spiral started with Satan who was a perfect spirit creature who developed a desire for glory, just because one is perfect does not mean they cannot entertain a thought that if not kept in check grows into a wrong desire even then you don't have to act upon it. Third once he acted & got Adam & Eve to act than sin entered through Adam & that also led to a lot of questions that developed through their situation and it was clearly seen in Jobs case. Do we as humans need God for guidance or can we rule ourselves, do we serve God selfishly or out of love, doe god have the right to rule, is he holding us back from our greatest potential ETC. He is giving us the opportunity to prove him wrong thats why he allows suffering, we as humans have not been able to establish a system of governance that can effectively & perfectly erradicate all the crime, suffering, sickness, equality & ultimately death that gods Kingdom purposes to do.including bring imperfect mankind back to a perfect state. Thats what the goodnews of the Kingdom is all about which by means of Jesus ransom sacrifice has already set in motion. S while we as pathetic humans try without Gods guidance he has already set things in motion to take place in due time & yes destroying all these man made governments & those who refuse to put his kingdom first & also destroying Satan is a part of it. Anyone has a better explaination of this pathetic world let me know Ill consider it.

I agree with a lot of this - some allegorically rather than literally and I am more focused on us taking responsibility for, and acting to correct, our ways than relying on the coming of the Kingdom of God to overcome our failings. For we will not know the time when Jesus will return.

Another way of thinking about it is: Why would God create the laws of nature and give us free will and then spend all His time constantly breaking these laws and taking away our free will to protect us from any and every bad thing happening as a result of these laws and our exercising our free will? To do this would make no sense, we would learn nothing, achieve nothing, know we can do what we want and God will just fix it for us.

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Reply #21 posted 06/23/12 6:35pm

toejam

avatar

IanRG said:

God gave us free will - the will to freely choose to do what is the right thing and to do what is wrong (not the ridiculous suggestion that freewill includes being free to will the impossible). We do the same thing with our children. Initially we do all for them and accept everything they do. As they mature - and I am talking about within the first few months - we start to teach them what is right from what is wrong. As the training develops we let our children choose more and more how they will act and what they want to do. Our success or failure is whether our children better themselves so that they can take our place for the next generation. When society measures the success or failure of our parenting they don't say that the parents of the child sexual abuser should have stepped in and stopped the abuse, society first blames the abuser - because it is the abuser that is accountable. If they blame the parents, they blame them for not teaching them right from wrong and how to act. My abuser's parents were not responsible for the abuse he did. I have no reason to suspect that is part of his parent's nature to sexually abuse children. In the same way evil acts by people are a consequence of God giving us free will, that does not allow us to pass back the blame for these acts to God.


The fundamental problem with the "God as a parent" analogy is that as human parents, we are not "all-powerful", and nor (in some cases) "all-loving". Secondly, if one's child turned out to be a murdering psychopath, and the parent had some ability unbeknownst to the police to prevent his son from committing another murder, then it is his responsibility to do so, even if that ultimately affects the murdering psychopath's "free will" to murder. Does God not have the power to prevent evil?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #22 posted 06/23/12 6:47pm

toejam

avatar

IanRG said:

I agree with a lot of this - some allegorically rather than literally and I am more focused on us taking responsibility for, and acting to correct, our ways than relying on the coming of the Kingdom of God to overcome our failings. For we will not know the time when Jesus will return.

Another way of thinking about it is: Why would God create the laws of nature and give us free will and then spend all His time constantly breaking these laws and taking away our free will to protect us from any and every bad thing happening as a result of these laws and our exercising our free will? To do this would make no sense, we would learn nothing, achieve nothing, know we can do what we want and God will just fix it for us.


Firstly, why believe that the Biblical God did "create the laws of nature and give us free will"?

Secondly, isn't your God ultimately going to return and "overcome our failings" anyway, regardless of what some of us learn or not learn? Why bother doing what we think is right if God is just going to come and clean it all up anyway? Just as some empty gesture to get in his good books? Does God not know our "intention" from the get go? If so, why let it play out? Why not just "overcome our failings" to begin with?

I say, let's just take responsibility for our actions period. God or no God.

[Edited 6/23/12 18:49pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #23 posted 06/23/12 6:58pm

duccichucka

Sorry guys, but I just can't get on board with you:

God, in all God's infinite wisdom, power, might, love,

forgiveness, goodness, mercy, faithfulness, omniscience,

immutability, strength; despite these attributes, conceives

of a planet in which he will set into motion all existence

known to humankind through billions of years of evolution...

and allows a system such as the one we operate in now

where evil abounds, natural violence wipes out and destroys

innocent people, allows for his creation, Lucifer, to rebel

against him, creates us with free will, but tells us that in

order to make it to heaven, we must do as he says, thus

contradicting any evidence of granting us free will, calls us

sinners, (knowing full well that our human nature would also

rebel against Him) and in order to make us stand righteously

before him, accept his son's vicious murder as atonement for

THE SYSTEM HE SET IN MOTION HIMSELF.

And he allows this to all unfold despite the attributes enumerated

above after a billion years succeeding the Big Bang?

This is like the following:

1. If my wife and I conceive of a child in love, (this is God's conception

of humankind and creaturely existence)

2. And while that child gestates fo 9 months, (this is God's plan of

humankind and creaturely's evolution of billion of years)

3. And while that child gestates for 9 months, we know that as

soon as that child is born, he will rebel against our precepts and

therefore will owe us. (this is God, in all his infinite wisdom, and

knowing full well what will happen before it does, does nothing

to alter what he has conceived himself and set into motion)

4. But in order for our son to enter back into our good graces, (this is

God telling us that we are sinners but can be reconciled only by

following one stipulation)

5. We will give birth to another child, raise him, teach him, love him

(this, obviously, is God's only begotten son, Hay-soos)

6. And then allow him to be violently murdered in order to spare the

firstborn. (this is God permitting and demanding that his son, Jesus

be crucified in order to right the wrongs of Adam's fuck up)

What kind of sick, sadistic, perverted, twisted persons or parents

would do that to their children created in the unifying basis of love?

The Judeo-Christian god, that's who.

When I say we must hold God accountable for these things,

that only means that we must deconstruct our notion of God

and come up with a better theism. This traditional Christian

God ain't cuttin' it for me. The Jewish/1st century, medieval,

Catholic, Reformation God ain't cuttin' it for me.

I agree with Nietzsche: the first and last Christian was Jesus

of Nazareth.

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Reply #24 posted 06/23/12 7:09pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:

God gave us free will - the will to freely choose to do what is the right thing and to do what is wrong (not the ridiculous suggestion that freewill includes being free to will the impossible). We do the same thing with our children. Initially we do all for them and accept everything they do. As they mature - and I am talking about within the first few months - we start to teach them what is right from what is wrong. As the training develops we let our children choose more and more how they will act and what they want to do. Our success or failure is whether our children better themselves so that they can take our place for the next generation. When society measures the success or failure of our parenting they don't say that the parents of the child sexual abuser should have stepped in and stopped the abuse, society first blames the abuser - because it is the abuser that is accountable. If they blame the parents, they blame them for not teaching them right from wrong and how to act. My abuser's parents were not responsible for the abuse he did. I have no reason to suspect that is part of his parent's nature to sexually abuse children. In the same way evil acts by people are a consequence of God giving us free will, that does not allow us to pass back the blame for these acts to God.


The fundamental problem with the "God as a parent" analogy is that as human parents, we are not "all-powerful", and nor (in some cases) "all-loving". Secondly, if one's child turned out to be a murdering psychopath, and the parent had some ability unbeknownst to the police to prevent his son from committing another murder, then it is his responsibility to do so, even if that ultimately affects the murdering psychopath's "free will" to murder. Does God not have the power to prevent evil?

There is a difference between being able to do all within your power (whether is limited or not) and what you do. A parent can do far more to protect their child than all actually do. They can keep them at home, they can never give up the responsibility to clean them, change them, feed them, never let them out of the house, etc etc. We look at the consequences of this and we don't do it - even if we could. We allow our children to take responsibility for their own actions way, way, way before we reach the limit of our power. God's power is far, far, far more than ours (as far as we know it is limitless) but this does not mean that mere existence of this power means that it must be used.

Your second point changes the circumstances of my analogy to make it a different question - Should a parent if they are able to prevent a specific murder actively stop it - i would answer this generally as yes they should. But this does not make the parent responsible for a murder by their child that did not meet your changes.

As I said in the next post.

IanRG said:

Another way of thinking about it is: Why would God create the laws of nature and give us free will and then spend all His time constantly breaking these laws and taking away our free will to protect us from any and every bad thing happening as a result of these laws and our exercising our free will? To do this would make no sense, we would learn nothing, achieve nothing, know we can do what we want and God will just fix it for us.

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Reply #25 posted 06/23/12 7:17pm

duccichucka

toejam said:

IanRG said:

I agree with a lot of this - some allegorically rather than literally and I am more focused on us taking responsibility for, and acting to correct, our ways than relying on the coming of the Kingdom of God to overcome our failings. For we will not know the time when Jesus will return.

Another way of thinking about it is: Why would God create the laws of nature and give us free will and then spend all His time constantly breaking these laws and taking away our free will to protect us from any and every bad thing happening as a result of these laws and our exercising our free will? To do this would make no sense, we would learn nothing, achieve nothing, know we can do what we want and God will just fix it for us.


Firstly, why believe that the Biblical God did "create the laws of nature and give us free will"?

Secondly, isn't your God ultimately going to return and "overcome our failings" anyway, regardless of what some of us learn or not learn? Why bother doing what we think is right if God is just going to come and clean it all up anyway? Just as some empty gesture to get in his good books? Does God not know our "intention" from the get go? If so, why let it play out? Why not just "overcome our failings" to begin with?

I say, let's just take responsibility for our actions period. God or no God.

[Edited 6/23/12 18:49pm]

I can believe in a god or preternatural force seting up the laws of physics and

such because as Hawking suggests, the Earth had a beginning that must have

been initiated by something - but that doesn't mean that that something is a

Jew or Christian. And that something doesn't necessarily have to be a god who

cares about us, answers petitions in the form of prayers and is personally involved

with humankind.

As for the biblical god creating and giving us free will, I don't buy it. You

must question this particular god's conception of free will if granted he is

responsible for giving humans free will, but tells us that in order for us

to be righteous and reconciled, we must admit that his son died for our sins

or perish in hell for eternity (which is unfair and unjust in and of itself because

a lifetime of sin considering the average life span of a human is incommensurable

with eternity; if humans lived for eternity, then it would be fair to send us offenders

to be punished in hell for eternity) - that ain't free will. That's "do this and belive

this or else..."

.....

I'm a follower of Jesus of Nazareth who doesn't believe that he is coming back;

that would betray the laws of physics, the very laws that God has set into

place! But I have a really interesting book: Resurrection - Theological and

Scientific Assessment which is a compendium of various scientists treating

our conception of Christology and there's some interesting shit in it...

I agree with the rest of your post, Stankfoot (or, Toejam): all manner of good

(which is mostly normative) and evil (which is of our own doing) has nothing

to do with a preternatural being. The problem with this loving, kind preternatural

being allowing for natural violence is one of the reasons why I find my own theism

so frustraing and kinda stupid.

Yet, I believe.

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Reply #26 posted 06/23/12 7:24pm

IanRG

toejam said:

IanRG said:

I agree with a lot of this - some allegorically rather than literally and I am more focused on us taking responsibility for, and acting to correct, our ways than relying on the coming of the Kingdom of God to overcome our failings. For we will not know the time when Jesus will return.

Another way of thinking about it is: Why would God create the laws of nature and give us free will and then spend all His time constantly breaking these laws and taking away our free will to protect us from any and every bad thing happening as a result of these laws and our exercising our free will? To do this would make no sense, we would learn nothing, achieve nothing, know we can do what we want and God will just fix it for us.


Firstly, why believe that the Biblical God did "create the laws of nature and give us free will"?

Surprise, surprise, I never thought you seek to make a religious thread about proof. Asked and answered in our recent thread.

Secondly, isn't your God ultimately going to return and "overcome our failings" anyway, regardless of what some of us learn or not learn? Why bother doing what we think is right if God is just going to come and clean it all up anyway? Just as some empty gesture to get in his good books? Does God not know our "intention" from the get go? If so, why let it play out? Why not just "overcome our failings" to begin with?

Do you know when Jesus will return? Nobody does. That was clearly demonstrated by Champing twice last year and by the long list of false prophecies of dates given for this by the JWs etc. I do not want God to just clean up my failings, they are my responsibility. I do not want to not have no or resticted free-will because God knows I will misuse it. I want to be given the choice to try to develop myself to be worthy as a human secularly as well as spiritually. I do not want to hope that the end of days will come in my lifetime so I can just sit back and watch it without trying to be as loving and Christ-like as humanly possible. I want to do something about my, my country's and all our failings.

I say, let's just take responsibility for our actions period. God or no God.

Agreed.

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Reply #27 posted 06/23/12 7:45pm

Visionnaire

I know....
priests!

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Reply #28 posted 06/23/12 7:47pm

duccichucka

Visionnaire said:

I know....
priests!

wink

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Reply #29 posted 06/23/12 7:53pm

toejam

avatar

IanRG said:
Do you know when Jesus will return? Nobody does.


I have not been convinced that he ever will.

I do not want God to just clean up my failings, they are my responsibility.


If your God exists, then I would agree.

I do not want to not have no or resticted free-will because God knows I will misuse it.

Again, if your God exists, is all-loving etc., and he knew giving me an unrestricted free-will would cause more harm than good then I too would not want an unrestricted free-will. But I have no reason to believe that this is the case.

I want to be given the choice to try to develop myself to be worthy as a human secularly as well as spiritually.


Given the choice or not, I try to develop myself to be as worthy as a human as possible too. "Worthy" as defined by contributing to the addition of love/happiness, and/or reduced suffering, for conscious creatures, and deciphering truth.

I do not want to hope that the end of days will come in my lifetime so I can just sit back and watch it without trying to be as loving and Christ-like as humanly possible.


I want to be the best possible human I can be too. But I'm not convinced by the claims that being "Christ-like" is the way to do this. For all I can tell he was simply delusional, and a lot of people fell for his erroneous claims - the same way people today fall for others' delusional claims. I am not convinced by your "evidence" that he was anything more than this.

I want to do something about my, my country's and all our failings.


Me too. I just don't see why belief in the God of the Bible is a relevant to this goal.

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Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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