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Thread started 08/17/11 4:09pm

noimageatall

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Why I am completely against corporal punishment

I am so angry and sad reading this story. This brings back too many memories of my sister and I being beaten with anything my mother and step-father could get their hands on. Extension cords, metal fly swatters, belts and buckles...because my mother said that God wanted children raised that way. One scripture in the Bible and we were abused beyond belief. Thank GOD I broke that cycle. I PRAY they get more than any court can give them. 22 and 12 years??? That's bullshit. There is no line to worry about crossing if you don't hit your children in the first place. shrug

http://www.rawstory.com/r...me-of-god/

Fundamentalist Christians ‘spanked’ daughter to death

CNN’s Gary Tuchman reported Monday on a fundamentalist Christian couple who killed their 7-year-old adopted daughter while practicing a violent form of discipline.

They reportedly beat their nine children regularly because they thought God wanted them to. Both parents were jailed after pleading guilty to the crime and the surviving children are now in foster homes.

http://www.digtriad.com/n...line-Abuse

Child Advocate Weighs In: Discipline Vs. Abuse

11:21 PM, Aug 16, 2011

Greensboro, NC - The death of a seven-year-old girl in California has raised questions about where discipline crosses the line and becomes child abuse.

Four years ago, a California couple did something so noble, they were featured on television. The story focused on their adoption of three children from Liberia.

However, three years later, those parents were in the spotlight again. One of those kids, just seven years old, died from a spanking.

Kevin Schatz pleaded guilty to first degree murder and torture. His wife, Elizabeth Schatz, pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter.

Prosecutors said the couple used quarter-inch plastic tubing to beat their daughter, taking the old proverb "spare the rod, spoil the child" literally.

Kevin Schatz told investigators he was following the advice of a couple who promote spanking to train children. Their website for "No Greater Love Ministries" details how to spank a child and where. It recommends plumber's supply line as an ideal spanking instrument.

News 2 spoke with an expert at the Children's Advocacy Center, part of Family Services of the Piedmont, to give parents a better idea of how to discipline their kids, safely. (THIS IS BULLSHIT--THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO HIT OR SLAP YOUR CHILDREN) mad

According to Susan Vaughn, discipline is part of good parenting. However, parents need to keep in mind discipline is not meant to hurt a child, it's meant to teach them.

Vaughn said never hit a child because you're angry. (How about never HIT your child period???)

"Sometimes a child has got you to the end of your rope and you're just arrgghh. Count to ten, take a break and then come back and discipline," she said.

Vaughn said parents also have to explain to their children why they're being disciplined. They have to be old enough to understand why they're in trouble.

If spanking is your method of discipline, Vaughn said never hit to the point you're leaving marks or hurting yourself. And it is best to use your hand. WTF??? mad

"If you hit your child with your hand, then your hand is going to get the brunt of that impact and that will give another reminder to your brain, wait a minute, I think we've had enough," said Vaughn.

Discipline also has to be age appropriate. Vaughn said at a certain age, words and taking away privileges can be more effective than spanking.

"When a child eventually grows up to be an adult, and they have to start listening to their boss and following their boss's rules, if they break a rule for their boss, their boss isn't going to hit them," she said. (Exactly...and your boss wouldn't hit a child either--so why would YOU???) confuse mad

Vaughn said no matter what form of discipline you use, it has to be consistent, so your child knows when their behavior is O.K. and when it's not.

Vaughn said it's important to remember, if you have to ask yourself if you've gone too far, you probably already have. dunce

Vaughn also parents shouldn't be afraid to ask for help. Ask other parents or friends about their disciplinary methods and tailor them to your own children.

You can also call the Children's Advocacy Center with questions. Dial 387-6161 and ask for the Children's Advocacy Center.

[Edited 8/17/11 16:17pm]

"Let love be your perfect weapon..." ~~Andy Biersack
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Reply #1 posted 08/17/11 4:39pm

smoothcriminal
12

Why is spanking such a big deal? Not to the point where you kill your child, but I mean regular, hand-to-ass spanking?

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Reply #2 posted 08/17/11 5:30pm

morningsong

You know there's another scripture in the bible about not doing things that provoke your children to wrath, it doesn't seem to be as popular though. Anyway, this is terrible, though I'm still not completely against spanking, I don't see anything wrong with alternatives in discipline especially given our violent mindset.

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Reply #3 posted 08/17/11 7:00pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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Such things can be used effectively to help shape behavior. There is a huge difference between a spanking and abuse. People died from food poisoning after eating undercooked beef! So do we ban beef?
Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #4 posted 08/19/11 9:46am

duccichucka

Using violence, in and of itself, in order to shape a person's character

is a conducive means of shaping the desired character? Yeah, if

the desideratum is a character being prone for violence.

You want to raise your children to have character, integrity, politeness,

etc? Be an example of character, integrity, politeness, ect. It is a well

established fact that until the brain has reached the age of 25, that person

is a fucking retard and will make retarded decisions. Parents should remain

calm and a beacon of character, integrity, politeness, etc!

I am not a parent so I am just running my mouf.

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Reply #5 posted 08/19/11 6:18pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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Do what works for you. But I know spankings work for some people. And it is not necessarily violent. You experience as a parent is all well and good, but is it and should be a legal means of disaplin. I remember as as a kid thinkig "if I do this I might get a spanking..." and i would weigh the consequences and it often helped choose not to do the "bad" thing.
Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #6 posted 08/19/11 6:40pm

noimageatall

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

Do what works for you. But I know spankings work for some people. And it is not necessarily violent. You experience as a parent is all well and good, but is it and should be a legal means of disaplin. I remember as as a kid thinkig "if I do this I might get a spanking..." and i would weigh the consequences and it often helped choose not to do the "bad" thing.

Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'

"Let love be your perfect weapon..." ~~Andy Biersack
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Reply #7 posted 08/19/11 6:59pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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noimageatall said:



OnlyNDaUsa said:


Do what works for you. But I know spankings work for some people. And it is not necessarily violent. You experience as a parent is all well and good, but is it and should be a legal means of disaplin. I remember as as a kid thinkig "if I do this I might get a spanking..." and i would weigh the consequences and it often helped choose not to do the "bad" thing.


Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'



Nor should be feed of going to jail or getting fired or getting slapped in the face or expled from school. (and FYI there have been disputes for 1000s of years as to who is more moral the one that struggles or the one that never considers doing 'bad' things.)
Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #8 posted 08/20/11 7:03pm

paniuroczy

duccichucka said:

Using violence, in and of itself, in order to shape a person's character

is a conducive means of shaping the desired character? Yeah, if

the desideratum is a character being prone for violence.

You want to raise your children to have character, integrity, politeness,

etc? Be an example of character, integrity, politeness, ect. It is a well

established fact that until the brain has reached the age of 25, that person

is a fucking retard and will make retarded decisions. Parents should remain

calm and a beacon of character, integrity, politeness, etc!

I am not a parent so I am just running my mouf.

lol

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Reply #9 posted 08/20/11 7:07pm

paniuroczy

I mean, I'm seventeen now.. and I have to say, I have wonderful parents. But I've been slapped before. Admittedly, I did some really stupid shit. It's not like it really hurt.

I'm not saying these are the best ways of discipline but I don't think it's that bad if a kid gets a little smack or something.

However, this story is just unbelievable. cry What evil, sick parents.

Rest In Peace Zariah lovely heart dove rose

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Reply #10 posted 08/20/11 8:22pm

PippiL

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noimageatall said:

I am so angry and sad reading this story. This brings back too many memories of my sister and I being beaten with anything my mother and step-father could get their hands on. Extension cords, metal fly swatters, belts and buckles...because my mother said that God wanted children raised that way. One scripture in the Bible and we were abused beyond belief. Thank GOD I broke that cycle. I PRAY they get more than any court can give them. 22 and 12 years??? That's bullshit. There is no line to worry about crossing if you don't hit your children in the first place. shrug

I think you're confusing corporal punishment with actual physical abuse. They're two separate things, entirely.

I'm all for spankings and I honestly think more parents should do so and that kids these days wouldn't be so out of control if they did, as well as a lot of adults who would probably be better people now if their parents had taken the time to discipline them.


[Edited 8/20/11 21:43pm]

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Reply #11 posted 08/21/11 6:21am

duccichucka

noimageatall said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Do what works for you. But I know spankings work for some people. And it is not necessarily violent. You experience as a parent is all well and good, but is it and should be a legal means of disaplin. I remember as as a kid thinkig "if I do this I might get a spanking..." and i would weigh the consequences and it often helped choose not to do the "bad" thing.

Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'

I mean, shouldn't this be the end of discussion here? Noimage is exactly right.

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Reply #12 posted 08/21/11 8:50am

mimric

duccichucka said:

noimageatall said:

Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'

I mean, shouldn't this be the end of discussion here? Noimage is exactly right.

Not really, doing whats right should b whats perventing negative behavior, respecting parents out of love and respecting the law BUT that has not ever stopped every1 from doing dumb things or mouthing off to a parent. A lot of people I know did not break the law becuz they did not want to go to jail or ther are sum who did not want to get on punishment or a spanking so they did what their parents said. In an ideal world that would b the case but we do not live in 1, i know my children respect me and I do not have to punish or spank often, but at times I did, did not want to, but I always gave my children opportunities to get it together and if they did not spanking became a last resort after talking to them, punishment then spanking if it came to that. but I always made sure they understood fully why we were at that point. Most of the time we did not have to go down that same road. I have not spanked my children in years, they are very respectful and loving I attribute that to well rounded discipline including occasional spanking. but what ever form of discipline deemed nescessary if the child has not learned why what they did was wrong you have not disciplined properly.

[Edited 8/21/11 10:18am]

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Reply #13 posted 08/21/11 10:03am

OnlyNDaUsa

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duccichucka said:



noimageatall said:




OnlyNDaUsa said:


Do what works for you. But I know spankings work for some people. And it is not necessarily violent. You experience as a parent is all well and good, but is it and should be a legal means of disaplin. I remember as as a kid thinkig "if I do this I might get a spanking..." and i would weigh the consequences and it often helped choose not to do the "bad" thing.


Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'




I mean, shouldn't this be the end of discussion here? Noimage is exactly right.



Why? Many people's morality are based in part on avoiding negitive consequences.

In fact sans negative consequences there is no reason to regulate your behaiors at all.
Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #14 posted 08/22/11 10:53am

duccichucka

mimric said:

duccichucka said:

I mean, shouldn't this be the end of discussion here? Noimage is exactly right.

Not really, doing whats right should b whats perventing negative behavior, respecting parents out of love and respecting the law BUT that has not ever stopped every1 from doing dumb things or mouthing off to a parent. A lot of people I know did not break the law becuz they did not want to go to jail or ther are sum who did not want to get on punishment or a spanking so they did what their parents said. In an ideal world that would b the case but we do not live in 1, i know my children respect me and I do not have to punish or spank often, but at times I did, did not want to, but I always gave my children opportunities to get it together and if they did not spanking became a last resort after talking to them, punishment then spanking if it came to that. but I always made sure they understood fully why we were at that point. Most of the time we did not have to go down that same road. I have not spanked my children in years, they are very respectful and loving I attribute that to well rounded discipline including occasional spanking. but what ever form of discipline deemed nescessary if the child has not learned why what they did was wrong you have not disciplined properly.

[Edited 8/21/11 10:18am]

I hear what you are saying and banishing coporal punishment does not guarantee that society

will finally find harmony.

But rearing a child takes more than just the child responding to cues and stuff; remember, children do not have the capability to make wise decisions until the are 25. Rearing a child

successfully also includes good parenting, right? I mean, if your kid is acting up and does not

listen to you and is constantly suffering negative consequences because of not adhering to

your discipline, perhaps you are the one whose to blame for shitty parenting skills.

I dunno - whuppin' ass to get a message across is counterintuitive to me. MLK didn't do it;

Gandhi didn't do it; Christ or Buddha or Confuscious didn't do it; and all got their "message"

across!

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Reply #15 posted 08/22/11 5:49pm

noimageatall

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

duccichucka said:

I mean, shouldn't this be the end of discussion here? Noimage is exactly right.

Why? Many people's morality are based in part on avoiding negitive consequences. In fact sans negative consequences there is no reason to regulate your behaiors at all.

I guess it all depends on whether you want your kids to be motivated from the inside...or the outside.

"Let love be your perfect weapon..." ~~Andy Biersack
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Reply #16 posted 08/22/11 7:44pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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noimageatall said:



OnlyNDaUsa said:


duccichucka said:



I mean, shouldn't this be the end of discussion here? Noimage is exactly right.



Why? Many people's morality are based in part on avoiding negitive consequences. In fact sans negative consequences there is no reason to regulate your behaiors at all.


I guess it all depends on whether you want your kids to be motivated from the inside...or the outside.



Fallacy. Some of the possable consequences are how the person feels about the choice. That feeling is often shaped by what? Prior conditioning. That being said: if they are moral why should anyone care why they are moral?
Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #17 posted 08/22/11 9:21pm

mimric

duccichucka said:

mimric said:

Not really, doing whats right should b whats perventing negative behavior, respecting parents out of love and respecting the law BUT that has not ever stopped every1 from doing dumb things or mouthing off to a parent. A lot of people I know did not break the law becuz they did not want to go to jail or ther are sum who did not want to get on punishment or a spanking so they did what their parents said. In an ideal world that would b the case but we do not live in 1, i know my children respect me and I do not have to punish or spank often, but at times I did, did not want to, but I always gave my children opportunities to get it together and if they did not spanking became a last resort after talking to them, punishment then spanking if it came to that. but I always made sure they understood fully why we were at that point. Most of the time we did not have to go down that same road. I have not spanked my children in years, they are very respectful and loving I attribute that to well rounded discipline including occasional spanking. but what ever form of discipline deemed nescessary if the child has not learned why what they did was wrong you have not disciplined properly.

[Edited 8/21/11 10:18am]

I hear what you are saying and banishing coporal punishment does not guarantee that society

will finally find harmony.

But rearing a child takes more than just the child responding to cues and stuff; remember, children do not have the capability to make wise decisions until the are 25. Rearing a child

successfully also includes good parenting, right? I mean, if your kid is acting up and does not

listen to you and is constantly suffering negative consequences because of not adhering to

your discipline, perhaps you are the one whose to blame for shitty parenting skills.

I dunno - whuppin' ass to get a message across is counterintuitive to me. MLK didn't do it;

Gandhi didn't do it; Christ or Buddha or Confuscious didn't do it; and all got their "message"

across!

Thats actually the point Im making, good parenting, you have to help children understand why what they are doing is not appropriate tehn tell them the consequences if we have to talk again. thats what I did I tried to make sure my children understood what was expected of them, why and what the consequences were. I did it in stages with spanking the ultimate last resort. I did not need spanking that much growing up i can count on one hand, my brothers needed it WAY more than me that was bout the only thing that kept them in line. you have to know your children 7 what works. Then you have children who could care less Ive seen those also no matter what the consequences they gonna do what they want, talk back, those are the ones you end up kicking out of the house after you knock them out. so good parenting is key BUT for sum it does not matter.

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Reply #18 posted 08/23/11 9:55pm

InspirationalO
ne

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I am not against corporal punishment but I am against child abuse wholeheartedly. Spare the road and spoil the child does not mean beat them into submission, or to brand in them an unhealthy fear of you as parents. GOD is love and those loving GOD will imitate him when dealing with ANYBODY. You can't pick and choose scriptures, while taking it out of context to justify your illegal behaviors. Using this scripture to justify the horrific way in which they treated those babies is bull. GOD refers to the fruitage of the belly being a reward. So, who takes a gift/reward and causes any type of damage? They take care of it, no? If you love your child you do not irritate them (Eph. 6.4) mentally, physically, spiritually, etc. Abuse inflicts lifelong issues for a child, causing major irritation. This couple... I can't even find the words. My heart breaks for the 7 year old. sad

I have never taken spare the rod as a literal object that should be used to discipline a child. I have always viewed it as instilling values, morals, establishing boundaries, etc. Those with closed minds view it as a pass to beat kids. Open minds realize there are VARIOUS ways to discipline a child, with spanking being a last resort. Shoot! My sister BEATS her kids still, and they are 15, 16, and 17. I'm talking laying on the bed on their stomach and receiving licks from a belt on their butt. To me, that's abuse because you should never strip a child of their dignity. But, I have RARELY seen a bruise on my nieces (maybe twice) and CPS was called. By the time they arrived the bruises were gone. And they told her, in front of me and my cousin who called, that she could beat her kids with a broom as long as she did not leave a mark (and they were 4-6 at the time). I was stunned. eek

She has always told me that I need to beat my kids. I never agreed because of how Mom BEAT us as children. I never wanted to inflict that pain on anyone. I used timeout so much that when my oldest (just turned 18) was 17 I had him stand against the wall (back on wall) for 17 minutes. He couldn't do anything but laugh. I am not saying that I never spanked my children, because I have. My daughter (16) hasn't had a spanking since...I honestly can't remember. My son (18)...I honestly can't remember either. My son (14) got a spanking at 13 and he deserved it and I do not regret it at all. I talk to my kids for MONTHS, warning them along the way. Because I don't talk loud my kids used to jump when I elevated my voice. But, for the past year it no longer works (darn the teenage years neutral ). So, I had to include verbal threats to get a reaction out of them (get out of my house if you can't do what's expected (chores, schoolwork, etc.). Then my younger two sisters spank their children and they do not leave bruises because they are not trying to injure, they're disciplining. If done correctly, with a SOUND mind, spanking should not be a problem.

"You need to laydown and let me show you how we do this thing up in funky town. From the heart of Minnesota here come the purple Yoda guaranteed to bring the dirty new sound! Come on, now!"
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Reply #19 posted 08/23/11 10:17pm

PippiL

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noimageatall said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Do what works for you. But I know spankings work for some people. And it is not necessarily violent. You experience as a parent is all well and good, but is it and should be a legal means of disaplin. I remember as as a kid thinkig "if I do this I might get a spanking..." and i would weigh the consequences and it often helped choose not to do the "bad" thing.

Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'

I think you're kinda missing the point. What spanking does is show kids that there's a consequence for their actions.

I don't plan on having any kids, but if I did I'd be chasing em around with a belt. nod

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Reply #20 posted 08/24/11 7:30am

mimric

PippiL said:

noimageatall said:

Being afraid of a spanking should not be the incentive to 'do the right thing.'

I think you're kinda missing the point. What spanking does is show kids that there's a consequence for their actions.

I don't plan on having any kids, but if I did I'd be chasing em around with a belt. nod

Thats pretty much the point helping children understand there are consequences to action. They also have to learn why certain things are wrong and that there are rules whether you agree or not that you have to follow. Spanking is not the only answer 7 should be used sparingly as a last resort. Sum children will take it there to see if you will do it then when they see you will they straighten up, sum parents only give idle threats and never do anything whether spanking or punishment and children pick up on that. As parents we need to b consistent, firm and mean what we say. Children may not know a lot but they are far from dumb they know who they can play with, I know sum kids that they give their parents a hard time cuz the parents are inconsistent and weak but when Im around the kids give me the utmost respect cuz I don't play, they can ask the child to do sumthin when Im around and they wont do it but when I reiterate what they said the kids respond then the parents looking crazy like why they listen to me but not them. Me I have no problem putting sum1 elses kid in check if need b, if the parents can't or won't I will. If Im with you I will not allow your child to embarrass you or me, when you are alone if your child does that its on you.

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Reply #21 posted 08/24/11 10:09am

uPtoWnNY

PippiL said:

What spanking does is show kids that there's a consequence for their actions.

I don't plan on having any kids, but if I did I'd be chasing em around with a belt. nod

Exactly. I wasn't spanked that often as a child - just seeing my dad's belt hanging in the closet kept me from doing too much dumb shit. I'm a firm believer in "spare the rod and spoil the child". My brother's the same way with his three kids - equal parts of love and discipline. His kids know not to cross the line.

What noimageatall posted is flat-out abuse.

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Reply #22 posted 08/25/11 8:34am

duccichucka

Sure, spanking does show a child that there are consequences for their actions:

violence.

Spanking is counter-intuitive. Dig it:

Your kid is a kid, which means that s/he is going to make the dumbest fucking decisions

possible by nature. Kids cannot help being kids; they have not yet fully developed into

functioning adults, who are themselves quite capable of making sound decisions.

So you whup 'em (kids) for not being able to make sound decisions? Well, that's just flat out dumb; because when kids finally become adults, fully capable of making sound decisions, who will eventually make some bad, dumbass decisions, we don't whup them simply because they're adults?

Hunh?

Don't beat your kids - they are naturally incapable of making consistently sound decisions.

Instead, beat your adult kids - they are naturally capable of making consistently sound decisions and should be punished thusly.

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Reply #23 posted 08/25/11 11:58am

mimric

duccichucka said:

Sure, spanking does show a child that there are consequences for their actions:

violence.

Spanking is counter-intuitive. Dig it:

Your kid is a kid, which means that s/he is going to make the dumbest fucking decisions

possible by nature. Kids cannot help being kids; they have not yet fully developed into

functioning adults, who are themselves quite capable of making sound decisions.

So you whup 'em (kids) for not being able to make sound decisions? Well, that's just flat out dumb; because when kids finally become adults, fully capable of making sound decisions, who will eventually make some bad, dumbass decisions, we don't whup them simply because they're adults?

Hunh?

Don't beat your kids - they are naturally incapable of making consistently sound decisions.

Instead, beat your adult kids - they are naturally capable of making consistently sound decisions and should be punished thusly.

I think two points of view are being expressed,me personally, Im speaking about progressive discipline. Example my son puts a hole in the wall with a hammer, I find out i explain to him why he should not do that then I leave it alone he did not understand why and i tell him the consequences if it happens again. he does it again i talk to him again and as a consequence put him on punishment then tell him if he does it again he will get a spanking. he does it again now I talk to him again and he gets a spanking. At this point he is well aware of his actions and by now this should not be an issue anymore. That is where Im coming from not handing out spankings all will nilly, and like I mentioned before if you have not helped the child to appreciate why what they are doing is wrong then you have not disciplined correctly you have only worsened the situation.

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