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Reply #210 posted 08/10/11 5:43am

V10LETBLUES

The shooting was horrible. The riots are horrible.

But when are the adults going to step.

Forget the police, I would have no problem if the shop owners armed themselves and shot to kill. Sometimes animals will not respond to anything else. Because when people turn to looting and random violence, they are no longer humans, but animals.


[Edited 8/10/11 5:53am]

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Reply #211 posted 08/10/11 5:51am

Dewrede

avatar

I'm baffled that the police are only allowed to use rubber bullets

They should shoot that scum

[Edited 8/10/11 5:51am]

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Reply #212 posted 08/10/11 6:02am

razor

2elijah said:

mcmeekle said:

The scenes we are seeing now have little if any connection to the shooting of Mark Duggan.

sad

I'm just saying that it seems the shooting of Mr. Duggan was a "jumpstart" to the riots/looting, whether some participated in it for other reasons like "getting back at the rich". There had to be some angst from members in that crowd, regarding Duggan's death by police as well.

This is why I asked if there was any indication of a riot/looting prior to this shooting incident, earlier in the week prior to Mr. Duggan's death, "solely" based on "getting back at the rich" including other social injustices felt by youth who participated in the riots/looting...or...are some in denial that the riots/looting, may have started based on anger, frustratons from youth, towards what may have been a racially-profiled shooting incident, regarding Mr. Duggan's death, and based on the increase of "stop and search" by police among youth in specific communities throughout the UK?

In my opinion, these riots/looting are a combination of the killing of Mr. Duggan by police officers, which was a contributing factor that jumpstarted the riots/looting, and some used that incident to vent against social injustices that were already at a boiling point within their communities, as well as those who took/are taking part in the riots/looting, just to jump-on-the-bandwagon. Just my opinion, based on what I've heard on various news stations/some of what was reported here and online, and from viewing vids on it, which does not mean I don't respect others' opinions on it, even if I may not agree with some of you on this situation.

Hopefully some calm will take place in the UK soon regarding these riots, and the social concerns will be dealt with down the road, as well as dealing with those who will more than likely, have to pay a price for their part in the riots/looting eventually.

[Edited 8/9/11 20:39pm]

As you might have gathered from the responses of UK folks here, I think you're getting something of a bum-steer from the American commentators you mention. I would say that, aside from those involved at the very begining of the tottenham riot, almost none of the other incidents and rioters are in any way concerned with what happened to Mark Duggan or stop and search and so on. Duggans own fiance agrees:

"It’s got out of hand,” Semone Wilson said. “It’s not connected to this anymore. It’s got nothing to do with the (original) march."

And we dont need to speculate, we can simply ask those involved. No-one is talking about Duggan, racial profiling and so on.

That's not to say those issues dont exist here. They of course do. But that's most certainly not what this is about.

And it also most certainly wasn't a "racially-profiled shooting incident". Duggan was already well known to the police and, indeed, it is thought the original incident sarted because the police had recieved a tip-off from someone in the community that he was armed and on his way to shoot someone. I remain open-minded and awaiting the ful evidience on the issue as to whether the police involved acted appropriately or if there was crinimal negligence and so on, but we can be clear this was not some randon instance of racial profiling.

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #213 posted 08/10/11 6:09am

razor

V10LETBLUES said:

The shooting was horrible. The riots are horrible.

But when are the adults going to step.

Forget the police, I would have no problem if the shop owners armed themselves and shot to kill. Sometimes animals will not respond to anything else. Because when people turn to looting and random violence, they are no longer humans, but animals.


[Edited 8/10/11 5:53am]

The adults have already been "stepping". Many communities in London last night were self-policed with people of all stripes turning out to protect each other and their properties. No guns in sight nor needed.

It was great and very heartening to see.

Here's one report:

http://www.telegraph.co.u...-back.html

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #214 posted 08/10/11 6:14am

V10LETBLUES

razor said:

V10LETBLUES said:

The shooting was horrible. The riots are horrible.

But when are the adults going to step.

Forget the police, I would have no problem if the shop owners armed themselves and shot to kill. Sometimes animals will not respond to anything else. Because when people turn to looting and random violence, they are no longer humans, but animals.


[Edited 8/10/11 5:53am]

The adults have already been "stepping". Many communities in London last night were self-policed with people of all stripes turning out to protect each other and their properties. No guns in sight nor needed.

It was great and very heartening to see.

Here's one report:

http://www.telegraph.co.u...-back.html

Yes very heartening, Thanks for the link.

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Reply #215 posted 08/10/11 6:48am

scatwoman

SUPRMAN said:

scatwoman said:

The ugly consequences of the revolting wealth disparity are showing themselves once again. Thank you capitalism.

You're right. This would never happen in Russia or China.

I figured the Org's resident capitalist apologist would chime in with more of his useless waffle, so thanks for being so predictable.

"The Pentagon controls every word and image the American people reads or sees in mass media."
Richard Perle 2004, at a press conference in the Pentagon.
doody
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Reply #216 posted 08/10/11 6:50am

razor

scatwoman said:



SUPRMAN said:




scatwoman said:


The ugly consequences of the revolting wealth disparity are showing themselves once again. Thank you capitalism.



You're right. This would never happen in Russia or China.




I figured the Org's resident capitalist apologist would chime in with more of his useless waffle, so thanks for being so predictable.



Perhaps you could actually respond to his point?
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #217 posted 08/10/11 6:56am

SUPRMAN

avatar

V10LETBLUES said:

The shooting was horrible. The riots are horrible.

But when are the adults going to step.

Forget the police, I would have no problem if the shop owners armed themselves and shot to kill. Sometimes animals will not respond to anything else. Because when people turn to looting and random violence, they are no longer humans, but animals.


[Edited 8/10/11 5:53am]

Human beings are animals irregardless of their actions.

Humans who win the Nobel Prize are still animals.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #218 posted 08/10/11 6:57am

ConsciousConta
ct

davetherave6767 said:

Ive been 2 Tottenham many times 2 watch the Villa its hell on earth there....There r riots in Birmingham now eye go there all the time its a great shame birmingham is a great place...Im in the Mailbox shopping centre alot.....thats a fucking shame eye tell ya....disbelief

It s not an attractive area but it s hardly hell on earth.

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Reply #219 posted 08/10/11 6:59am

ConsciousConta
ct

dyvrdown said:

they demand justice for the death of one person, so they do things that could potentially kill more people.

freaking lunatics.

The rioters have very little to do with wanting justice for the shot person. I think these are organised gangs who were waiting for the right moment and excuse to carry out looting and thuggery.

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Reply #220 posted 08/10/11 7:02am

SUPRMAN

avatar

scatwoman said:

SUPRMAN said:

You're right. This would never happen in Russia or China.

I figured the Org's resident capitalist apologist would chime in with more of his useless waffle, so thanks for being so predictable.

And I quote:

"scatwoman said:

The ugly consequences of the revolting wealth disparity are showing themselves once again. Thank you capitalism."

So you think this only happened because Britain is capitalist and has a wealth disparity? China and Russia both have equivalent wealth disparities, but neither regime would allow such rioting. They would simply have shot to kill on the first night and it would have ended. Do you disagree?

It took a police shooting for people to see "the ugly consequences of the revolting wealth disparity?"

Is that just being an apoligist for looters and anarchists?

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #221 posted 08/10/11 7:23am

ISF

SquirrelMeat said:

2elijah said:

1) They murdered a man, where the latest reports stated the young man did not fire at officers. The officers fired at him. If all evidence shows that he did not "point to shoot" at officers, then what was the reason for killing him other than knowing he was carrying a gun? Had he taken the gun, pointed it at the officers in a threatening manner, then I could see that as a threat to officers, forcing them to kill him, but if he didn't point the gun at the officers at all/posed no threat at the time, what was the reason for killing him? Now until that type of evidence is presented, then the cops murdered him, while he posed no threat to them. So for now, I see that as murder.

2) Did you know in some states in the U.S. it is illegal to carry a gun, but not all people who have one illegally, are shot immediately, because they are known to be carrying one, unless they take it out and point it towards someone with intent to shoot/kill?

3) The incident was the 'jumpstart' of the looting and rioting, and yes some may have used it as an excuse to loot or riot, but there's no way you can say, that all that were out rioting did it just to get back at the rich. Many also participated in those crimes, i.e, burning buildings/businesses, etc., as their way of unleashing their anger/frustration over this young man's death. Now is there a history/major complaints of racial profiling in the UK towards specific members of communities in the UK? Like I stated before, there were many who did advantage of the situation, and took part in stealing material items/looting, attack innocent people, but many were also angry over the death of the young man, which I am not saying anyone had a right to go out and burn buildings/businesses, attack/rob innocent people, because of this incident. There are much better ways to express/handle one's anger or disgust over incidents like this.

And the fact that you have called it murder before the evidence is out says a lot. Carry a weapon, take the risk of this happening. Thats the rule. Written or unwritten. I grew up in Tottenham. Its the same back then as it is now.

You grew up in Tottenham. Tell me, was Cynthia Jarrett carrying a weapon?

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Reply #222 posted 08/10/11 7:24am

catpark

SUPRMAN said:



catpark said:


razor said:
A few facts: The bank bailouts happened under the labour govt, not the current one (not that I, blaming labour for that; entirely the right policy at the time). UK unemployment is not higher than it was a year ago; indeed it is slightly lower. Our spending on war has decreased not increased from 12 months ago. Their have been cuts in the met police numbers. However they amount to 1.4% of the total force. Hardly enough to make any reasonable argument that they have somehow been a major factor in the last few days.

Those unemployment figures are debatable imo, there has been so many cuts since they got into power. If u think the UK govenment are doing good and its not enough to moan about, why is there so much violence of rioting and looting burning of buildings in London over the past 3 days?

Because Britain doesn't have the money. Certainly not by choice. No one imagines cuts are going to win a popularity contest.


I know there is a recession on has been for few years. We recently had to give Ireland billions to help them with there recession.
And i don't get where your getting that idea from but its definitely not about some popularity contest, its not a game, its not Oscar night in Hollywood. This is about peoples lives, cuts being made in the wrong places where its affecting parts of society.
FUNKNROLL! dancing jig "February 2014, wow". 'dre. nod
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Reply #223 posted 08/10/11 7:27am

2elijah

avatar

razor said:

2elijah said:

I'm just saying that it seems the shooting of Mr. Duggan was a "jumpstart" to the riots/looting, whether some participated in it for other reasons like "getting back at the rich". There had to be some angst from members in that crowd, regarding Duggan's death by police as well.

This is why I asked if there was any indication of a riot/looting prior to this shooting incident, earlier in the week prior to Mr. Duggan's death, "solely" based on "getting back at the rich" including other social injustices felt by youth who participated in the riots/looting...or...are some in denial that the riots/looting, may have started based on anger, frustratons from youth, towards what may have been a racially-profiled shooting incident, regarding Mr. Duggan's death, and based on the increase of "stop and search" by police among youth in specific communities throughout the UK?

In my opinion, these riots/looting are a combination of the killing of Mr. Duggan by police officers, which was a contributing factor that jumpstarted the riots/looting, and some used that incident to vent against social injustices that were already at a boiling point within their communities, as well as those who took/are taking part in the riots/looting, just to jump-on-the-bandwagon. Just my opinion, based on what I've heard on various news stations/some of what was reported here and online, and from viewing vids on it, which does not mean I don't respect others' opinions on it, even if I may not agree with some of you on this situation.

Hopefully some calm will take place in the UK soon regarding these riots, and the social concerns will be dealt with down the road, as well as dealing with those who will more than likely, have to pay a price for their part in the riots/looting eventually.

[Edited 8/9/11 20:39pm]

As you might have gathered from the responses of UK folks here, I think you're getting something of a bum-steer from the American commentators you mention. I would say that, aside from those involved at the very begining of the tottenham riot, almost none of the other incidents and rioters are in any way concerned with what happened to Mark Duggan or stop and search and so on. Duggans own fiance agrees:

"It’s got out of hand,” Semone Wilson said. “It’s not connected to this anymore. It’s got nothing to do with the (original) march."

And we dont need to speculate, we can simply ask those involved. No-one is talking about Duggan, racial profiling and so on.

That's not to say those issues dont exist here. They of course do. But that's most certainly not what this is about.

And it also most certainly wasn't a "racially-profiled shooting incident". Duggan was already well known to the police and, indeed, it is thought the original incident sarted because the police had recieved a tip-off from someone in the community that he was armed and on his way to shoot someone. I remain open-minded and awaiting the ful evidience on the issue as to whether the police involved acted appropriately or if there was crinimal negligence and so on, but we can be clear this was not some randon instance of racial profiling.

Thanks razor for that explanation, and not taking my comments to a personal, insulting or childish level, as I'm sure this could be debated in a respectful and adult manner, regardless of the emotions some are feeling connected to the riots/looting and innocent people being harmed, as well as, any disagreements among us which may take place.

I did listen to a journalist apparently from the UK, who works for the NY times, who stated and confirmed on American news, that the riots/looting specifically started because of the Mr. Duggan shooting, and escalated into others "jumping-on-the-bandwagon" later and participating in the riots/looting, obviously for other reasons not connected to the actual shooting.

The latter was never denied in my previous posts. So here’s my questions/concerns:

1) If the shooting was not what started the riots/looting, as some stated, then what do you think are the actual reasons for it, minus the rioters who are rioting/looting for the sake of it and causing trouble unrelated to the shooting incident, and if there was any rioting/looting in the UK prior to Mr. Duggan’s death, based on the social injustices/unfair treatment felt by many youth within their communities, where it involved actions/behaviors of the police?

2) You say this was not a racially-profiled shooting, but have you spoken to any youth from communities of color, who may disagree with you on this shooting incident? If you have, and their answer is yes, do you think that some, not all, used this shooting incident as an opportunity to vent their frustrations by rioting/looting, because of the increased stop and search activity that has and is taking place by the police, within their specific communities, and saw/see this latest incident, as one more too many, bringing their frustrations to a boiling point?

3) Now the youth who “jumped-on-the-bandwagon” for the sake of rioting/looting, with their reason not having anything to do with the shooting incident, I do believe of course, should pay the price for their actions in this, but this is also not saying, that everyone involved in the riots/looting, shouldn’t pay for their actions as well. I don't believe "shooting" or "shoot-to-kill" is the answer in handling the situation nor will that deal directly with the social ills, some used this incident for to riot/loot and express their frustrations. I've heard there were 11 year-olds out there in the rioting/looting, as well, and I hate to think that (some, not all) people of the UK who are already screaming that the police should use real bulllets, instead of rubber ones to kill the rioters/looters, would want to see children as young as 11 years old, shot and killed in the process. However, this doesn't go without questioning why 11 year-olds are out there participating in this, and not at home with their parents.

4) What is your opinion on what improvements can be made to increase better communication, understanding and respect among members of specific communities, and the police, specifically the youth, where there seems to be some tension between both? It seems there may be similar problems here in the U.S. among many of our police departments and youth from communities of color. Do you feel a similar situation presenting itself in the U.K.?

In advance and all due respect, I appreciate your response if you choose to respond.

[Edited 8/10/11 8:57am]

As an American you have a right to question/call your country out on its wrongs/injustices. That doesn’t make you un-American nor does anyone have a right to tell you to leave, because you have the courage to stand up against any injustice in this count
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Reply #224 posted 08/10/11 7:53am

2elijah

avatar

ISF said:

SquirrelMeat said:

And the fact that you have called it murder before the evidence is out says a lot. Carry a weapon, take the risk of this happening. Thats the rule. Written or unwritten. I grew up in Tottenham. Its the same back then as it is now.

You grew up in Tottenham. Tell me, was Cynthia Jarrett carrying a weapon?

Who is Cynthia Jarrett? School me on it.

As an American you have a right to question/call your country out on its wrongs/injustices. That doesn’t make you un-American nor does anyone have a right to tell you to leave, because you have the courage to stand up against any injustice in this count
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Reply #225 posted 08/10/11 8:10am

ISF

On 5 October 1985 a young black man, Floyd Jarrett, was arrested by police, having been stopped in a vehicle with an allegedly suspicious tax disc. Four police officers searched his home. In a disturbance between police and family members, his 49-year-old mother, Cynthia Jarrett, fell over and died almost instantly.[citation needed]

The local council leader, Bernie Grant, later condemned the search and urged the local police chiefs to resign immediately as their behaviour had been "out of control".[2]

Cynthia Jarrett's death sparked outrage from members of the black community against the Metropolitan Police. There was a belief in the black community that the police were racist. A black woman,Cherry Groce, had been shot by police a week earlier in Brixton. Four years earlier the Scarman Report into an earlier riot in Brixton criticised police.

At the inquest into the death of Cynthia Jarrett her daughter, Patricia, alleged that her mother had been pushed over by Detective Constable Michael Randle, which he denied. The inquest found that Jarrett had died accidentally. No police officers were charged or disciplined for her death.

but don't question her death, you crazy left wing conspiracy theorist! rolleyes

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Reply #226 posted 08/10/11 8:15am

2elijah

avatar

^ Interesting. Thanks for posting. Seems similar to the ongoing tensions between police and communities of color within the U.S. today.

[Edited 8/10/11 9:00am]

As an American you have a right to question/call your country out on its wrongs/injustices. That doesn’t make you un-American nor does anyone have a right to tell you to leave, because you have the courage to stand up against any injustice in this count
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Reply #227 posted 08/10/11 8:46am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

ISF said:

SquirrelMeat said:

And the fact that you have called it murder before the evidence is out says a lot. Carry a weapon, take the risk of this happening. Thats the rule. Written or unwritten. I grew up in Tottenham. Its the same back then as it is now.

You grew up in Tottenham. Tell me, was Cynthia Jarrett carrying a weapon?

I was 5 then, living above a shop on Lordship lane. Didn't know Cynthia or her family, but I heard of them and saw some of them over the next couple of years as I was about a ten minute walk away.

I doubt she was armed when she died of a heart attack when the police went round there with the court warrant. Or are you suggesting the police are directly responsible for her heart attack as well?

There was certainly some tooled up when locals shot at police and stabbed PC Blakelock to death.

.
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Reply #228 posted 08/10/11 8:51am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

ISF said:

On 5 October 1985 a young black man, Floyd Jarrett, was arrested by police, having been stopped in a vehicle with an allegedly suspicious tax disc. Four police officers searched his home. In a disturbance between police and family members, his 49-year-old mother, Cynthia Jarrett, fell over and died almost instantly.[citation needed]

The local council leader, Bernie Grant, later condemned the search and urged the local police chiefs to resign immediately as their behaviour had been "out of control".[2]

Cynthia Jarrett's death sparked outrage from members of the black community against the Metropolitan Police. There was a belief in the black community that the police were racist. A black woman,Cherry Groce, had been shot by police a week earlier in Brixton. Four years earlier the Scarman Report into an earlier riot in Brixton criticised police.

At the inquest into the death of Cynthia Jarrett her daughter, Patricia, alleged that her mother had been pushed over by Detective Constable Michael Randle, which he denied. The inquest found that Jarrett had died accidentally. No police officers were charged or disciplined for her death.

but don't question her death, you crazy left wing conspiracy theorist! rolleyes

Its tragic. But this article misses out on the important fact that the police had been granted a warrant to search the house, and that the mother died on a heart attack, not an injury.

If you are going to print facts, at least print all of them.

As for the recent events. Its been confirmed that Duggan was armed. Or do you think that is made up as well?

.
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Reply #229 posted 08/10/11 9:09am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

2elijah said:

^ Interesting. Thanks for posting. Seems similar to the ongoing tensions between police and communities of color within the U.S. today.

[Edited 8/10/11 9:00am]

I do think there was racist and corruption in the UK police force in the 80's, but I think the system is a lot more transparent now. There are less places for a dodgy officer to hide.

That said, it doesn't make the whole police force in the 80's bad. As a kid I remember seeing teenagers, black and white getting stopped all the time. I would say it was more regional (poor areas) that colour. And, 9 times out of 10, they were doing something dodgy to begin with.

.
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Reply #230 posted 08/10/11 9:10am

ISF

The Coroner's Inquest into the death of Cynthia Jarrett heard from her daughter, Patricia, that she had been pushed over by Detective Constable Michael Randle which he denied. Unusually, in the case of a heart attack victim, the inquest found that Cynthia had died an 'Accidental Death' - suggesting that the jury found that something other than natural causes had led to her demise. No police officers were ever charged or disciplined for the death of Cynthia Jarrett.

As for Mark Duggan, please show me this confirmation? I believe he may have been carrying a gun. It is possible that he was not. Regardless, stories have been made up to suggest he shot first. It is now appearing that he did not shoot at all.

If the killing of Cynthia Jarrett does not seem unjust to you, what about the shooting of Cherry Groce?

It (the Brixton riots) was sparked by the shooting of Dorothy 'Cherry' Groce by police, while they sought her son Michael Groce in relation to a suspected firearms offence - they believed Michael Groce was hiding in his mother's home. It is reported that the police did not give the required warning (which alerts residents to the fact that a raid is about to proceed), and Mrs. Groce was in bed when the police began their search. Michael Groce was not there at the time of the shooting, and Mrs. Groce was paralysed below the waist by the police bullet.

The police officer who shot Mrs. Groce, Inspector Douglas Lovelock, was prosecuted but eventually acquitted of malicious wounding.

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Reply #231 posted 08/10/11 9:18am

razor

2elijah said:

razor said:

As you might have gathered from the responses of UK folks here, I think you're getting something of a bum-steer from the American commentators you mention. I would say that, aside from those involved at the very begining of the tottenham riot, almost none of the other incidents and rioters are in any way concerned with what happened to Mark Duggan or stop and search and so on. Duggans own fiance agrees:

"It’s got out of hand,” Semone Wilson said. “It’s not connected to this anymore. It’s got nothing to do with the (original) march."

And we dont need to speculate, we can simply ask those involved. No-one is talking about Duggan, racial profiling and so on.

That's not to say those issues dont exist here. They of course do. But that's most certainly not what this is about.

And it also most certainly wasn't a "racially-profiled shooting incident". Duggan was already well known to the police and, indeed, it is thought the original incident sarted because the police had recieved a tip-off from someone in the community that he was armed and on his way to shoot someone. I remain open-minded and awaiting the ful evidience on the issue as to whether the police involved acted appropriately or if there was crinimal negligence and so on, but we can be clear this was not some randon instance of racial profiling.

Thanks razor for that explanation, and not taking my comments to a personal, insulting or childish level, as I'm sure this could be debated in a respectful and adult manner, regardless of the emotions some are feeling connected to the riots/looting and innocent people being harmed, as well as, any disagreements among us which may take place.

I did listen to a journalist apparently from the UK, who works for the NY times, who stated and confirmed on American news, that the riots/looting specifically started because of the Mr. Duggan shooting, and escalated into others "jumping-on-the-bandwagon" later and participating in the riots/looting, obviously for other reasons not connected to the actual shooting.

The latter was never denied in my previous posts. So here’s my questions/concerns:

1) If the shooting was not what started the riots/looting, as some stated, then what do you think are the actual reasons for it, minus the rioters who are rioting/looting for the sake of it and causing trouble unrelated to the shooting incident, and if there was any rioting/looting in the UK prior to Mr. Duggan’s death, based on the social injustices/unfair treatment felt by many youth within their communities, where it involved actions/behaviors of the police?

I don't deny that the shooting and subsequent protest were certainly the catalyst for what happened subsequently. What seems pretty clear though it they were not the motivation for the vast majority involved.

Hence if you take out the rioters who were "rioting/looting for the sake of it and causing trouble unrelated to the shooting incident", I believe you'd have precious few people left to discuss.

Thats not to say less who were rioting dont have issues; they clearly do. But I'm quite reluctant to start speculating on what causes people to behave in this way. What I will say is that I dont beleive it to be as simple as some would suggest. Its not simply just about race or racism, nor just about police prejudice, nor just about immigration policy, nor just about too many, or not enough handouts, nor merely the absence of places to play table tennis. These are compex social issues and I dont pretend to understand it all and have the solutions. Its an area that I will (as will many here) be trying to learn about and eventually form hopefully educated opinions on in the coming few weeks and months. My instinct is that this is rooted in a long and deeply engrained counter culture that is both self and state sustained. But I'm wary of going beyond that.

As for previous roits based on race-related police behaviour, the last time any such events happened was in the mid 80's. I think its fair to say that police community relations, as well as he accountibilty and monitoring of the police, have improved significantly since then, although I dont doubt there is room for improvement (isnt there always?)

2) You say this was not a racially-profiled shooting, but have you spoken to any youth from communities of color, who may disagree with you on this shooting incident? If you have, and their answer is yes, do you think that some, not all, used this shooting incident as an opportunity to vent their frustrations by rioting/looting, because of the increased stop and search activity that has and is taking place by the police, within their specific communities, and saw/see this latest incident, as one more too many, bringing their frustrations to a boiling point?

I have spoken to some from the area yes (I live not far from tottenham and have relatives in Enfield. As I mentioned earlier I was in Tottenham Hale on the night of the shooting). Just to be clear on what I said before, you asked if this was an instance of racial profiling i.e. a random man stoped merely because he was black. To reiterate, that was not the case. He was a man known to the police who were purposely out to stop and apprehend him of the back of what I believe was a local tip off stating that he was armed and intend on murder. Whether the shooting was warrented or not is another question. I will wait and see what comes out of the investigation before I make a judgement on that.

Do some in tottenham and elsewhere have problmes with the police and see them as racist? Absolutely. Was the original protest bourne out of seeking answers for the shooting and a general build up of frustration against the police/their lives? I dont doubt it. They however were comprised of a handful of local people. The rioters then co-opted their cause as an excuse to do what they did. As a related point, it now seems that a significant number of the tottenham rioters were not local to the area but were instead from other boroughs of london who had come purposely to tottennam to piggyback the protest for their own agenda.

What I can say is that by far the majority view is those areas affected by the riots is that this was not a political protest, nor a a repsonse to the shooting.

3) Now the youth who “jumped-on-the-bandwagon” for the sake of rioting/looting, with their reason not having anything to do with the shooting incident, I do believe of course should pay the price for their actions in this, but this is also not saying, that everyone involved in the riots/looting, shouldn’t pay for their actions as well. I don't believe "shooting" or "shoot-to-kill" is the answer in handling the situation nor iwill that deal directly with the social ills, some used this incident to riot/loot express their frustrations. I've heard there were 11 year-olds out there in the rioting/looting, as well, and I hate to think that (some, not all) people of the UK who are already screaming that the police should use real bulllets, instead of rubber ones to kill the rioters/looters, would want to see children as young as 11 years old, shot and killed in the process. However, this doesn't go without questioning why 11 year-olds are out there participating in this, and not at home with their parents.

Agreed. Thankfully, despite the flack they get and the fact that they are clearly not perfect, our police are by are large (there will alas always be exceptions) pretty skilled at quelling protests without resorting to unnecessary and over the top violence (not one police related death across the country so far).

4) What is your opinion on what improvements can be made to increase better communication, understanding and respect among members of specific communities, and the police, specifically the youth, where there seems to be some tension between both? It seems there may be similar problems here in the U.S. among many of our police departments and youth from communities of color. Do you feel a similar situation presenting itself in the U.K.?

In advance and all due respect, I appreciate your response.

[Edited 8/10/11 8:34am]

From what I understand (and as I said earlier) it seems ther have been great improvements in this this area in the last 25-30 years. But, yes its clear there are still problems. I'm not an expert in community relations but I guess I would advocate as much transparancy and contact as possible ; regular community meetings, trying to keep the same police staff in the same areas over prolonged periods to allow relationships to be built; full discolsure of police procedures and investigations following suspect incidents and so on.

Overall though, I'm sure there are many people better qualified than me to comment. Perhaps there may be some UK orgers with some experience in these areas who might like to comment?

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #232 posted 08/10/11 9:23am

2elijah

avatar

SquirrelMeat said:

2elijah said:

^ Interesting. Thanks for posting. Seems similar to the ongoing tensions between police and communities of color within the U.S. today.

[Edited 8/10/11 9:00am]

I do think there was racist and corruption in the UK police force in the 80's, but I think the system is a lot more transparent now. There are less places for a dodgy officer to hide.

That said, it doesn't make the whole police force in the 80's bad. As a kid I remember seeing teenagers, black and white getting stopped all the time. I would say it was more regional (poor areas) that colour. And, 9 times out of 10, they were doing something dodgy to begin with.

Okay, but the fact that there is corruption/racial prejudice among police officers in the U.S. or U.K. and then some justifying the abuse tactics used by some of those officers, who stops a person for questioning, based on some suspected criminal activity or that the individual already has a criminal record, doesn't justify the racial prejudice/stereotypical assumptions or abuse, that many, not all, police officers already harbor internally, when going into specific communities of color and use that to abuse their authority.

I find, people so easily dismiss the actions of these type of police officers, who shed a bad light on the good officers, while justifying their racist actions, based on either stating the individual had a criminal record anyway or did something as you put it "dodgy". I'm not specifically saying you, but I've seen these types of attitudes in the U.S. whenever it involves some shady behavior by police officers who either shoot or by some other force, kill/murder unarmed or armed suspects, who may not have posed an actual threat while carrying a weapon, and this abuse is mostly done to black or hispanic youths. In the U.S. you rarely hear of cops kililng a non-black citizen, who has a gun, is unarmed, and some who actually verbally abuse cops or do pose a threat, when stopped by police..

By the way, my niece's paternal grandparents have been living in the U.K. for many years, as well as her Uncles and cousins. I've met some friends from there who still live there, although lost contact with them, as we've all moved on in our lives. My niece's parents immigrated from the island of Jamaica to the UK sometime ago;can't remember exactly what part of the Uk they are residing though. I haven't contacted my niece to see how her grandparents are doing, and not sure how much she stays in contact with them, but I will contact her this week to find out if she's heard how they are doing with the recent situation going on there. Hopefully things will calm down, as I heard last night more police have been called in to control the rioting/looting.

[Edited 8/10/11 9:33am]

As an American you have a right to question/call your country out on its wrongs/injustices. That doesn’t make you un-American nor does anyone have a right to tell you to leave, because you have the courage to stand up against any injustice in this count
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Reply #233 posted 08/10/11 9:35am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

ISF said:

The Coroner's Inquest into the death of Cynthia Jarrett heard from her daughter, Patricia, that she had been pushed over by Detective Constable Michael Randle which he denied. Unusually, in the case of a heart attack victim, the inquest found that Cynthia had died an 'Accidental Death' - suggesting that the jury found that something other than natural causes had led to her demise. No police officers were ever charged or disciplined for the death of Cynthia Jarrett.

As for Mark Duggan, please show me this confirmation? I believe he may have been carrying a gun. It is possible that he was not. Regardless, stories have been made up to suggest he shot first. It is now appearing that he did not shoot at all.

If the killing of Cynthia Jarrett does not seem unjust to you, what about the shooting of Cherry Groce?

It (the Brixton riots) was sparked by the shooting of Dorothy 'Cherry' Groce by police, while they sought her son Michael Groce in relation to a suspected firearms offence - they believed Michael Groce was hiding in his mother's home. It is reported that the police did not give the required warning (which alerts residents to the fact that a raid is about to proceed), and Mrs. Groce was in bed when the police began their search. Michael Groce was not there at the time of the shooting, and Mrs. Groce was paralysed below the waist by the police bullet.

The police officer who shot Mrs. Groce, Inspector Douglas Lovelock, was prosecuted but eventually acquitted of malicious wounding.

You seem hung up on it being about colour, and there is no proof either way.

The death of Cynthia Jarret is tragic, but it could be as simple as she tried to stop the police coming into her flat, despite them having a warrant. She was a 20 stone woman and her heart gave out. Whether she had a heart attack and fell over or whether she was pushed aside and fell over, it was clearly not a deliberate act to kill and there is nothing to say colour had anything to do with it. Even the daughter didn't try to say the police tried to do her in.

In regard to "cherry". This is a tragic fuck up. It was wrong. But the police were not there to hunt down an innocent black women, they were there, armed, because they believed her son was in the house with a gun and had a previous. A fuck up by the police.

In regard to Duggan, the IPCC have already confirmed he did not fire. They never said he did. That was all the conspiracy nuts. That have confirmed he was carrying an illegal firearm.

Any death is tragic, but I'm not cutting anyone slack when they are carrying a firearm in the UK. They get what coming to them. White, black, yellow.

The police can't win. They have to protect an unarmed public from lowlife with guns and batons, then people take a pop at them for dealing with things so hard.

I'm still not sure what your point is. You have been sprouting hearsay as fact, condoning attacks on police equipment and pointing to 25 year old incidents like they are somehow linked to teenage thugs smashing up whole communities to steal trainers and phones.

What exactly are you trying to say?

.
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Reply #234 posted 08/10/11 9:45am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

2elijah said:

SquirrelMeat said:

I do think there was racist and corruption in the UK police force in the 80's, but I think the system is a lot more transparent now. There are less places for a dodgy officer to hide.

That said, it doesn't make the whole police force in the 80's bad. As a kid I remember seeing teenagers, black and white getting stopped all the time. I would say it was more regional (poor areas) that colour. And, 9 times out of 10, they were doing something dodgy to begin with.

Okay, but the fact that there is corruption/racial prejudice among police officers in the U.S. or U.K. and then some justifying the abuse tactics used by some of those officers, who stops a person for questioning, based on some suspected criminal activity or that the individual already has a criminal record, doesn't justify the racial prejudice/stereotypical assumptions or abuse, that many, not all, police officers already harbor internally, when going into specific communities of color and use that to abuse their authority.

I find, people so easily dismiss the actions of these type of police officers, who shed a bad light on the good officers, while justifying their racist actions, based on either stating the individual had a criminal record anyway or did something as you put it "dodgy". I'm not specifically saying you, but I've seen these types of attitudes in the U.S. whenever it involves some shady behavior by police officers who either shoot or by some other force, kill/murder unarmed or armed suspects, who may not have posed an actual threat while carrying a weapon, and this abuse is mostly done to black or hispanic youths. In the U.S. you rarely hear of cops kililng a non-black citizen, who has a gun, is unarmed, and some who actually verbally abuse cops or do pose a threat, when stopped by police..

By the way, my niece's paternal grandparents have been living in the U.K. for many years, as well as her Uncles and cousins. I've met some friends from there who still live there, although lost contact with them, as we've all moved on in our lives. My niece's parents immigrated from the island of Jamaica to the UK sometime ago;can't remember exactly what part of the Uk they are residing though. I haven't contacted my niece to see how her grandparents are doing, and not sure how much she stays in contact with them, but I will contact her this week to find out if she's heard how they are doing with the recent situation going on there. Hopefully things will calm down, as I heard last night more police have been called in to control the rioting/looting.

[Edited 8/10/11 9:33am]

Come and visit, its not a war zone! biggrin

The whole race thing will probably never go away, and there is no doubt there are injustices, but I think the biggest problem is the race card gets pulled far too often, even when its obvious they are guilty.

The Duggan case could well be one of those. I hear lots of shouting about him being black, but I don't hear a lot of those same defenders denying he was armed. He was a known gang member in his area.

Those pulling the race card every time are making it ten times worse for legitimate claims of abuse.

Overall the race issue seems far worse in the US. Over here, it tends to be immigration, and the impact that has on jobs and housing.

.
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Reply #235 posted 08/10/11 9:50am

2elijah

avatar

razor said:

2elijah said:

Agreed. Thankfully, despite the flack they get and the fact that they are clearly not perfect, our police are by are large (there will alas always be exceptions) pretty skilled at quelling protests without resorting to unnecessary and over the top violence (not one police related death across the country so far).

4) What is your opinion on what improvements can be made to increase better communication, understanding and respect among members of specific communities, and the police, specifically the youth, where there seems to be some tension between both? It seems there may be similar problems here in the U.S. among many of our police departments and youth from communities of color. Do you feel a similar situation presenting itself in the U.K.?

In advance and all due respect, I appreciate your response.

[Edited 8/10/11 8:34am]

From what I understand (and as I said earlier) it seems ther have been great improvements in this this area in the last 25-30 years. But, yes its clear there are still problems. I'm not an expert in community relations but I guess I would advocate as much transparancy and contact as possible ; regular community meetings, trying to keep the same police staff in the same areas over prolonged periods to allow relationships to be built; full discolsure of police procedures and investigations following suspect incidents and so on.

Overall though, I'm sure there are many people better qualified than me to comment. Perhaps there may be some UK orgers with some experience in these areas who might like to comment?

I do believe you responded to my questions very well, and I thank you for that. I have to say that I do agree with some of the suggestions/opinions you've made on the last part of your post, on what can be done, if there does seem to be some tensions between the police and those in communities of color.

I also agree that some from other areas, came in to jump-on-the-bandwagon, for reasons not connected to the shooting, as well as others who did it related to the incident, and those who used this incident, as a way of venting their frustrations for either "social ills" within their specific communities/or others within the UK as a whole.

However, like I said, I don't condone rioting/looting, because it overshadows the shooting incident between the police and the young man killed in the process. I think if/when things calm down, hopefully more details will come out as to why this incident took place, and if there were any other reasons behind the killing other than reports stating that the victim was sort after, because of calls to police that he was carrying a gun, and supposedly out to shoot someone. We shall see.

As an American you have a right to question/call your country out on its wrongs/injustices. That doesn’t make you un-American nor does anyone have a right to tell you to leave, because you have the courage to stand up against any injustice in this count
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Reply #236 posted 08/10/11 9:54am

pald1

razor said:

scatwoman said:

I figured the Org's resident capitalist apologist would chime in with more of his useless waffle, so thanks for being so predictable.

Perhaps you could actually respond to his point?

Scatwoman can't. It knows not of what it speaks.

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Reply #237 posted 08/10/11 9:56am

2elijah

avatar

SquirrelMeat said:

2elijah said:

Okay, but the fact that there is corruption/racial prejudice among police officers in the U.S. or U.K. and then some justifying the abuse tactics used by some of those officers, who stops a person for questioning, based on some suspected criminal activity or that the individual already has a criminal record, doesn't justify the racial prejudice/stereotypical assumptions or abuse, that many, not all, police officers already harbor internally, when going into specific communities of color and use that to abuse their authority.

I find, people so easily dismiss the actions of these type of police officers, who shed a bad light on the good officers, while justifying their racist actions, based on either stating the individual had a criminal record anyway or did something as you put it "dodgy". I'm not specifically saying you, but I've seen these types of attitudes in the U.S. whenever it involves some shady behavior by police officers who either shoot or by some other force, kill/murder unarmed or armed suspects, who may not have posed an actual threat while carrying a weapon, and this abuse is mostly done to black or hispanic youths. In the U.S. you rarely hear of cops kililng a non-black citizen, who has a gun, is unarmed, and some who actually verbally abuse cops or do pose a threat, when stopped by police..

By the way, my niece's paternal grandparents have been living in the U.K. for many years, as well as her Uncles and cousins. I've met some friends from there who still live there, although lost contact with them, as we've all moved on in our lives. My niece's parents immigrated from the island of Jamaica to the UK sometime ago;can't remember exactly what part of the Uk they are residing though. I haven't contacted my niece to see how her grandparents are doing, and not sure how much she stays in contact with them, but I will contact her this week to find out if she's heard how they are doing with the recent situation going on there. Hopefully things will calm down, as I heard last night more police have been called in to control the rioting/looting.

[Edited 8/10/11 9:33am]

Come and visit, its not a war zone! biggrin

The whole race thing will probably never go away, and there is no doubt there are injustices, but I think the biggest problem is the race card gets pulled far too often, even when its obvious they are guilty.

The Duggan case could well be one of those. I hear lots of shouting about him being black, but I don't hear a lot of those same defenders denying he was armed. He was a known gang member in his area.

Those pulling the race card every time are making it ten times worse for legitimate claims of abuse.

Overall the race issue seems far worse in the US. Over here, it tends to be immigration, and the impact that has on jobs and housing.

Agree on the bolded part about the race issues existing n the U.S., although since I don't live in the UK, I can't speak for any person of color in the UK, who visited/lived in both the U.S. or UK for some period of time and can tell if the racial prejudice is worse here or there. Anyway, I did come across an interview, by someone named Victoria Jackson on RT news yesterday, who stated that there is an increase in the stop and search by police to many youths who live in communities of color. She also stated there is a lack of youth employment, recreational programs, and most can't afford to attend youth clubs that were once free, and some of their frustrations are due to many programs for the youth being cut. She states that now many youth are hanging out in the streets with not much to do and end up falling prey to criminal activity, like joining gangs, etc. Do you agree with her on this?

[Edited 8/10/11 10:34am]

As an American you have a right to question/call your country out on its wrongs/injustices. That doesn’t make you un-American nor does anyone have a right to tell you to leave, because you have the courage to stand up against any injustice in this count
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Reply #238 posted 08/10/11 9:57am

pald1

SquirrelMeat said:

ISF said:

You seem hung up on it being about colour, and there is no proof either way.

The death of Cynthia Jarret is tragic, but it could be as simple as she tried to stop the police coming into her flat, despite them having a warrant. She was a 20 stone woman and her heart gave out. Whether she had a heart attack and fell over or whether she was pushed aside and fell over, it was clearly not a deliberate act to kill and there is nothing to say colour had anything to do with it. Even the daughter didn't try to say the police tried to do her in.

In regard to "cherry". This is a tragic fuck up. It was wrong. But the police were not there to hunt down an innocent black women, they were there, armed, because they believed her son was in the house with a gun and had a previous. A fuck up by the police.

In regard to Duggan, the IPCC have already confirmed he did not fire. They never said he did. That was all the conspiracy nuts. That have confirmed he was carrying an illegal firearm.

Any death is tragic, but I'm not cutting anyone slack when they are carrying a firearm in the UK. They get what coming to them. White, black, yellow.

The police can't win. They have to protect an unarmed public from lowlife with guns and batons, then people take a pop at them for dealing with things so hard.

I'm still not sure what your point is. You have been sprouting hearsay as fact, condoning attacks on police equipment and pointing to 25 year old incidents like they are somehow linked to teenage thugs smashing up whole communities to steal trainers and phones.

What exactly are you trying to say?

Hung up is an understatement. Dude has obviously been on the dark side himself. Anway, a fine rebuttal.

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Reply #239 posted 08/10/11 10:33am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

2elijah said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Come and visit, its not a war zone! biggrin

The whole race thing will probably never go away, and there is no doubt there are injustices, but I think the biggest problem is the race card gets pulled far too often, even when its obvious they are guilty.

The Duggan case could well be one of those. I hear lots of shouting about him being black, but I don't hear a lot of those same defenders denying he was armed. He was a known gang member in his area.

Those pulling the race card every time are making it ten times worse for legitimate claims of abuse.

Overall the race issue seems far worse in the US. Over here, it tends to be immigration, and the impact that has on jobs and housing.

The thing is, I heard someone named Victoria Jackson on RT news yesterday, state that there is an increase in the stop and search by police to many youths who live in communities of color. She also stated there is a lack of youth employment, recreational programs, and most can't afford to attend youth clubs that were once free, and some of their frustrations are due to many programs for the youth being cut. She states that now many youth are hanging out in the streets with not much to do and end up falling prey to criminal activity, like joining gangs, etc.. Do you agree with her on this?

I think those sorts of questions are more about the red and blue of politics than black and white of the population.

I would believe stats that show stop and search are more likely in areas with minorty population, but I think that is indicitive of the UK immigration policy leading to ghetto like areas of poverty, and proverty mothers crime.

There is youth unemployment, Why? Lots of reasons, the economy being the main one. But also, the welfare culture is so ingrained there are generations who suck off the state rather than get a job for no extra money. Secondly, there are plenty of jobs on the bottom rung, but the English youth are turning there noses up at them. They want something for nothing. I regularly employ people and I'm shocked by the lack of care or respect from the UK youth compared to the hard working Europeans.

Youth hanging out on streets is nothing new. Youth not having anywhere to go is nothing new. Youth moaning about their prospects in nothing new.

Youths smashing up communities in volume is new.

There isn't one defining thing that is causing this, but to me anyway, the last labour government set this timebomb. The immigration policy has been a disaster, and Labour let in millions of soon to be labour votes with no real plan to tackle the effect on already over populated communities. It has created ghettos like never before, and huge resentement from the general population.

Secondly, they let political correctness ruin our childrens morals. Parents smacking kids, banned. Teacher repremanding pupils, banned. Police stopped answering non urgent crime 10 years ago. Speed cameras over robbery. The result? Kids who don't fear or have no respect for the police, the schools or their parents.

.
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