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Reply #90 posted 08/08/11 8:07pm

razor

ISF said:



pald1 said:




ISF said:



I did read, I missed that. I find the other 25% totally unacceptable. Also, I don't believe that 3/4 of those people were so drunk/high that they died whilst in police custody. They may have been drunk/high and more likely to die from injuries.




What you "believe" is irrelevant. It's facts that count.




I see the point you are making. Some people won't believe a thing unless the government or police officials come out and say it. They believe that just because the UK is largely democratic that its government and police force do not commit crimes.


The leaders of the UK lied to the public that Saddam Hussain had weapons that could attack the UK in 45 minutes. The media fed these lies to the people. What happened to Tony Blair? He becomes a peace envoy to the middle east.



What happens to Dr Kelly who exposed government lies? He ends up dead in a field after APPARENTLY commiting suicide.



Please don't say this is irrelevant because it definately is not.



:roll:

No, that was not his point. Some people have a rather annoying habit of wanting evidence before believing something. You know, being rational and reasonable, I'm sure you've heard of it. Demanding that every case stand and falls on it's own merits and should be judged as such.

All very irritating when of course what we should do is take a broad anti-establishment mentality, disregard facts and relevant evidence and instead seek conspiracy and criminality in every state action whether warranted or not. Which of course is not at all stupid or irresponsible. And neither does it undermine at all the appropriate outcry when a genuine wrongdoing is indeed found.

FFS...
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #91 posted 08/08/11 8:13pm

pald1

ISF said:

pald1 said:

What you "believe" is irrelevant. It's facts that count.

I see the point you are making. Some people won't believe a thing unless the government or police officials come out and say it. They believe that just because the UK is largely democratic that its government and police force do not commit crimes.

The leaders of the UK lied to the public that Saddam Hussain had weapons that could attack the UK in 45 minutes. The media fed these lies to the people. What happened to Tony Blair? He becomes a peace envoy to the middle east.

What happens to Dr Kelly who exposed government lies? He ends up dead in a field after APPARENTLY commiting suicide.


Please don't say this is irrelevant because it definately is not.

Another conspiracy nut...in any event, i like that, despite all your verbiage, you couldn't argue against my point.

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Reply #92 posted 08/08/11 8:15pm

Dewrede

avatar

elmer said:

London's a lovely place.

that made me sick to my stomach mad

[Edited 8/8/11 20:24pm]

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Reply #93 posted 08/08/11 8:15pm

catpark

I've been too scared to sleep. My neighbour is the same we've been sitting at my house watching tv for hours in disbelief of the news. Shes scared to go to sleep too. I've locked all my windows and lights off and it looks like all my neighbours have aswell even our local mini shops have closed extra early tonight. I hopefully it has calming down a bit but theres still fires in places that Sony depot fire is huge. This reminds me of the 80s riots but nothing like this.
The tory govenment make me sick they need to go.
FUNKNROLL! dancing jig "February 2014, wow". 'dre. nod
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Reply #94 posted 08/08/11 8:23pm

pald1

catpark said:

I've been too scared to sleep. My neighbour is the same we've been sitting at my house watching tv for hours in disbelief of the news. Shes scared to go to sleep too. I've locked all my windows and lights off and it looks like all my neighbours have aswell even our local mini shops have closed extra early tonight. I hopefully it has calming down a bit but theres still fires in places that Sony depot fire is huge. This reminds me of the 80s riots but nothing like this. The tory govenment make me sick they need to go.

A little misguided but then any one think you're living in a warzone right now.

Got news for you. A labour govt would still have to enact tough austerity plans. This economic crisis is global and gonna get a lot worse. Whoever is in power hs no choice but to make cuts.

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Reply #95 posted 08/08/11 8:26pm

ISF

A woman is killed in her home and it is dismissed as an accident with no officers receiving any punishment whatsoever

An innocent man is shot 7 times in the head by police, only then for the police to make up lies about him jumping ticket barriers in a shameless attempt to justify his murder

A man holding a chair leg is shot and murdered in the street.

Nobody is convicted for any of these murders.


What evidence are you expecting? What justice are you expecting?

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Reply #96 posted 08/08/11 8:38pm

ISF

pald1 said:

ISF said:

I see the point you are making. Some people won't believe a thing unless the government or police officials come out and say it. They believe that just because the UK is largely democratic that its government and police force do not commit crimes.

The leaders of the UK lied to the public that Saddam Hussain had weapons that could attack the UK in 45 minutes. The media fed these lies to the people. What happened to Tony Blair? He becomes a peace envoy to the middle east.

What happens to Dr Kelly who exposed government lies? He ends up dead in a field after APPARENTLY commiting suicide.


Please don't say this is irrelevant because it definately is not.

Another conspiracy nut...in any event, i like that, despite all your verbiage, you couldn't argue against my point.

Do you believe that Saddam Hussain could attack the UK in 45 minutes?
Do you believe that Dr Kelly committed suicide?

If your to these questions is yes, you are at best an idiot who believes whatever he is told by the government, and at worst a disgusting person who excuses the actions of the British government at all costs in order to defend the establishments domestic crimes and global imperialism.

Are you also of the view that the western European colonialists were right to murder, rape and enslave millions of africans and native americans for their ''backwardness''? After all, that is what was taught by the governments at the time.

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Reply #97 posted 08/08/11 8:42pm

Dewrede

avatar

^

why bring all that irrelevant stuff into it ? confused

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Reply #98 posted 08/08/11 8:43pm

SUPRMAN

avatar

powersoul99 said:

.

Same happened when Thatcher brought in her cutbacks.

And now we have that wanker Tory prime minister cutting back services and local youth schemes and we have riots again.

He doesn't have a choice.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #99 posted 08/08/11 8:45pm

SUPRMAN

avatar

SexLovely said:

Never thought watching the NEWS would make me shed a tear.....

.

This is so fucked up.

.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10318089

That has happened to me more times than I can count.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #100 posted 08/08/11 8:47pm

elmer

ISF said:

I see the point you are making. Some people won't believe a thing unless the government or police officials come out and say it. They believe that just because the UK is largely democratic that its government and police force do not commit crimes.

The leaders of the UK lied to the public that Saddam Hussain had weapons that could attack the UK in 45 minutes. The media fed these lies to the people. What happened to Tony Blair? He becomes a peace envoy to the middle east.

What happens to Dr Kelly who exposed government lies? He ends up dead in a field after APPARENTLY commiting suicide.


Please don't say this is irrelevant because it definately is not.

When governments do this it\s 'collateral damage' biggrin

Apparently Mark Duggan was in possession of a converted handgun. Thas a pretty big mitigating circumstance for me.

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Reply #101 posted 08/08/11 8:54pm

elmer

ISF said:

An innocent man is shot 7 times in the head by police, only then for the police to make up lies about him jumping ticket barriers in a shameless attempt to justify his murder

A man holding a chair leg is shot and murdered in the street.

These were human errors. In the former case there was professional negligence, but to have seen manslaughter charges brought against the shooter/s would've been ridiculous.

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Reply #102 posted 08/08/11 8:56pm

ISF

There is no proof of that. There are reports that the bullet found in the policemans' radio was from a police issue gun.

So we cannot say for sure.
What do you say about the three examples of killings in my previous post?

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Reply #103 posted 08/08/11 8:56pm

pald1

ISF said:

pald1 said:

Another conspiracy nut...in any event, i like that, despite all your verbiage, you couldn't argue against my point.

Do you believe that Saddam Hussain could attack the UK in 45 minutes?
Do you believe that Dr Kelly committed suicide?

If your to these questions is yes, you are at best an idiot who believes whatever he is told by the government, and at worst a disgusting person who excuses the actions of the British government at all costs in order to defend the establishments domestic crimes and global imperialism.

Are you also of the view that the western European colonialists were right to murder, rape and enslave millions of africans and native americans for their ''backwardness''? After all, that is what was taught by the governments at the time.

I think we're hardwired in some way to look for patterns. Nothing wrong with that necessarily. Some of us prefer a conspiracy theroy to no theory at all. Still, no point adressing your random, disconnected rants to me...these are issues you have to work out for yourself.

What I am here to adress is your rather twisted view on what's right. You preferred response to a grievance is to jump on a car windshield - I say that this doesn't quite have the shine of excellence. I could be wrong but I'm not gonna bet on it.

In a democratic society, when one has the right to organize constructive social change, vote against what one doesn't believe in (what our Arab brohers and sisters are fighting for), you want to abuse that. Some of what you say is quite valid, but you do yourself a big disservice when you go on wild, uninformed tangets about doctors in the midlands, and colonial 18th century Britain . Shame.

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Reply #104 posted 08/08/11 8:58pm

ISF

Dewrede said:

^

why bring all that irrelevant stuff into it ? confused

It is not irrelevant. It has to do with people believing whatever the government and police tell them, even if it goes against the majority of reports, evidence and logic. The police has killed, and got away with killing innocent civilians a number of times.

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Reply #105 posted 08/08/11 9:32pm

SUPRMAN

avatar

2freaky4church1 said:

These are kids who don't have jobs or hope and they act out with violence.

Get used to more of this.

The violence was awful, but this is what happens with austerity.

It does have to be what happens.

Austerity was required, it wasn't done to be mean.

The U.S. will be in the same boat in a decade if we don't stop our endless spending.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #106 posted 08/08/11 10:23pm

wildgoldenhone
y

avatar

Saw this on the news tonight. Crazy! That pic of that woman jumping from the window, thought that comes to mind is that they're jeopardizing the lives of numerous innocent victims; is it really worth endangering other lives?


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Reply #107 posted 08/09/11 1:12am

Shanti0608

SquirrelMeat said:

razor said:

SquirrelMeat said: BS. The 85 riots were entirely race based: black youths protesting police brutality. Watch the footage from tottenham again. you'll see Jews, whites, Asians, blacks, and every other category that makes up the place.

You are not reading what I am saying. in 85, when I lived there, I said poverty was colourless, not the riots. It was a poor, shitty place to grow up.

The tottenham 11 footage is on the screen now. And the Sky reporter has a iphone right in the faces of the Croydon rioters. Its all races, but it is hugely weighted. I don't mean the hoards standing around. I mean the live looting. Its right there on the screen.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that race plays a part in rioting, I'm simply saying that the fact that the vast majority of those caught on screen point to a forgotten or mistreated section of society.

We live about 7 miles from Croydon. It is where our shops are located. It is not a great place to go on a good day. I hope our friends there and in Tottenham are safe.

sigh

Scary times.

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Reply #108 posted 08/09/11 1:31am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

catpark said:

I've been too scared to sleep. My neighbour is the same we've been sitting at my house watching tv for hours in disbelief of the news. Shes scared to go to sleep too. I've locked all my windows and lights off and it looks like all my neighbours have aswell even our local mini shops have closed extra early tonight. I hopefully it has calming down a bit but theres still fires in places that Sony depot fire is huge. This reminds me of the 80s riots but nothing like this. The tory govenment make me sick they need to go.

To be replaced by what? The last government who got us into the financial mess and raised the youths now smashing up the streets?

.
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Reply #109 posted 08/09/11 2:10am

Mayte319

avatar

It was happening in Nottingham also last night sad

Chavs trying to break into the shopping centre to get into JD sports. (says it all really)

Fire bombs being thrown at the police station 10 mins walk from my home, bricks were thrown through the window of a little boys bedroom!! Sickening behaviour!!!

Bring back national service and for those that are foreign they need shipping back to where they came from. We ve got too soft and they run a mockery doing as they please cos we are too frightened to infringe on peoples humans rights whilst these thugs do what they hell they like cos they know nothing will happen to them!

The home office woman acts like they are naughty prep school boys and the PM should have been here from day one. Oh we interupted his holiday, what about all of those police officers having their leave cancelled? The same ones who's jobs are being cut! The conservatives dont listen whether its the NHS, Teachers or Students protesting or now the thugs rioting!! ONE BIG MESS!

NPGUK
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Reply #110 posted 08/09/11 2:24am

catpark

pald1 said:



catpark said:


I've been too scared to sleep. My neighbour is the same we've been sitting at my house watching tv for hours in disbelief of the news. Shes scared to go to sleep too. I've locked all my windows and lights off and it looks like all my neighbours have aswell even our local mini shops have closed extra early tonight. I hopefully it has calming down a bit but theres still fires in places that Sony depot fire is huge. This reminds me of the 80s riots but nothing like this. The tory govenment make me sick they need to go.


A little misguided but then any one think you're living in a warzone right now.



Got news for you. A labour govt would still have to enact tough austerity plans. This economic crisis is global and gonna get a lot worse. Whoever is in power hs no choice but to make cuts.


I live in central london, this is my London so STFU. Everyone around my area is wrong for securing there homes and staying in? The shop keepers closing up early are misguided? What are u on. We was worrying not knowing whether it was gonna spread to there area last night. I saw the aftermath of the Brixtion riots in 85 i use to live around there when i was kid, this is worse. And i seem to recall the Tories where in power then, and were in power in the 81 riots too. Cameron is a terrible leader he doesnt give no hope no morale to the youths and working class then treat them like scroungers and vermin, the youths are treated like there not part of society like they have no future, they've stopped caring, the Thatcher years was the same. This was a boiling pot waiting to explode.
FUNKNROLL! dancing jig "February 2014, wow". 'dre. nod
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Reply #111 posted 08/09/11 2:33am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

catpark said:

pald1 said:

A little misguided but then any one think you're living in a warzone right now.

Got news for you. A labour govt would still have to enact tough austerity plans. This economic crisis is global and gonna get a lot worse. Whoever is in power hs no choice but to make cuts.

I live in central london, this is my London so STFU. Everyone around my area is wrong for securing there homes and staying in? The shop keepers closing up early are misguided? What are u on. We was worrying not knowing whether it was gonna spread to there area last night. I saw the aftermath of the Brixtion riots in 85 i use to live around there when i was kid, this is worse. And i seem to recall the Tories where in power then, and were in power in the 81 riots too. Cameron is a terrible leader he doesnt give no hope no morale to the youths and working class then treat them like scroungers and vermin, the youths are treated like there not part of society like they have no future, they've stopped caring, the Thatcher years was the same. This was a boiling pot waiting to explode.

The current government has only been in a little over a year and there weren't any jobs a year ago either. Do you really believe that these kids went from being caring citizens to criminal thugs in one year because of Cameron and his mates?

This is at a social fabric level. Greed culture. Lack of disipline. Lack of respect. Over population and no pride in the country they choose to live in.

This has been boiling for years.

.
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Reply #112 posted 08/09/11 3:13am

catpark

SquirrelMeat said:



catpark said:


pald1 said:



A little misguided but then any one think you're living in a warzone right now.



Got news for you. A labour govt would still have to enact tough austerity plans. This economic crisis is global and gonna get a lot worse. Whoever is in power hs no choice but to make cuts.



I live in central london, this is my London so STFU. Everyone around my area is wrong for securing there homes and staying in? The shop keepers closing up early are misguided? What are u on. We was worrying not knowing whether it was gonna spread to there area last night. I saw the aftermath of the Brixtion riots in 85 i use to live around there when i was kid, this is worse. And i seem to recall the Tories where in power then, and were in power in the 81 riots too. Cameron is a terrible leader he doesnt give no hope no morale to the youths and working class then treat them like scroungers and vermin, the youths are treated like there not part of society like they have no future, they've stopped caring, the Thatcher years was the same. This was a boiling pot waiting to explode.

The current government has only been in a little over a year and there weren't any jobs a year ago either. Do you really believe that these kids went from being caring citizens to criminal thugs in one year because of Cameron and his mates?



This is at a social fabric level. Greed culture. Lack of disipline. Lack of respect. Over population and no pride in the country they choose to live in.



This has been boiling for years.

Yes Labour lost coz of the state the country was in and there involvement with war etc, but since Tories being power for just over a year what have they done to make any positive changes? None quite the opposite all theyve done is made cuts and targeting the poor and vunerable for the mis shape Britian, when they pour billions into war and banks. Look when they cut the tution fees, protesters started smashing up everywhere. They've cut the police services, the police could not cope last night and were choosing stand back when the looting was happening then going in afterwards. Look at Clapham the police earlier knew there was going be riots heading that way they warned shop owers yesterday evening to close up, when it started the police were absent.
Yeah maybe it has been boiling for years but it happened in 81 Thatcher had only been in power for about two years. Not saying what them looters done was anyway right its terrible but I think it was just more than thuggery.
FUNKNROLL! dancing jig "February 2014, wow". 'dre. nod
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Reply #113 posted 08/09/11 3:18am

dJJ

ISF said:

Dewrede said:

^

why bring all that irrelevant stuff into it ? confused

It is not irrelevant. It has to do with people believing whatever the government and police tell them, even if it goes against the majority of reports, evidence and logic. The police has killed, and got away with killing innocent civilians a number of times.

even if you would be right, that doesn't make these riots okay, would it?

This is just opportunity that makes the crime. Young agressive males making other people's life hell.

Just because they feel like it. IMO there is not excuse for this kind of violent behaviour.

99% of my posts are ironic. Maybe this post sides with the other 1%.
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Reply #114 posted 08/09/11 3:26am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

catpark said:

SquirrelMeat said:

The current government has only been in a little over a year and there weren't any jobs a year ago either. Do you really believe that these kids went from being caring citizens to criminal thugs in one year because of Cameron and his mates?

This is at a social fabric level. Greed culture. Lack of disipline. Lack of respect. Over population and no pride in the country they choose to live in.

This has been boiling for years.

Yes Labour lost coz of the state the country was in and there involvement with war etc, but since Tories being power for just over a year what have they done to make any positive changes? None quite the opposite all theyve done is made cuts and targeting the poor and vunerable for the mis shape Britian, when they pour billions into war and banks. Look when they cut the tution fees, protesters started smashing up everywhere. They've cut the police services, the police could not cope last night and were choosing stand back when the looting was happening then going in afterwards. Look at Clapham the police earlier knew there was going be riots heading that way they warned shop owers yesterday evening to close up, when it started the police were absent. Yeah maybe it has been boiling for years but it happened in 81 Thatcher had only been in power for about two years. Not saying what them looters done was anyway right its terrible but I think it was just more than thuggery.

So why is the problem not the resulting aftermath of the previous labour government who created the financal mess in the 70's and now?

And the sudent fees are a prime example of the greed and respect. Two sides to the argument. Those who want there lifestyle choice paid by others, and those that don't think they should have to. Both have a good case.

Two sides. But only one side was smashing streets and pissing on war memorials.

Its a complete cop out to blame the current government and not point out the source of the problem both financially and morally. These kids were born and or raised in Blairs Britain. Not Thatcher and not Cameron.

These problems are bigger than both parties.

.
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Reply #115 posted 08/09/11 3:58am

catpark

SquirrelMeat said:



catpark said:


SquirrelMeat said:


The current government has only been in a little over a year and there weren't any jobs a year ago either. Do you really believe that these kids went from being caring citizens to criminal thugs in one year because of Cameron and his mates?



This is at a social fabric level. Greed culture. Lack of disipline. Lack of respect. Over population and no pride in the country they choose to live in.



This has been boiling for years.



Yes Labour lost coz of the state the country was in and there involvement with war etc, but since Tories being power for just over a year what have they done to make any positive changes? None quite the opposite all theyve done is made cuts and targeting the poor and vunerable for the mis shape Britian, when they pour billions into war and banks. Look when they cut the tution fees, protesters started smashing up everywhere. They've cut the police services, the police could not cope last night and were choosing stand back when the looting was happening then going in afterwards. Look at Clapham the police earlier knew there was going be riots heading that way they warned shop owers yesterday evening to close up, when it started the police were absent. Yeah maybe it has been boiling for years but it happened in 81 Thatcher had only been in power for about two years. Not saying what them looters done was anyway right its terrible but I think it was just more than thuggery.

So why is the problem not the resulting aftermath of the previous labour government who created the financal mess in the 70's and now?



And the sudent fees are a prime example of the greed and respect. Two sides to the argument. Those who want there lifestyle choice paid by others, and those that don't think they should have to. Both have a good case.



Two sides. But only one side was smashing streets and pissing on war memorials.



Its a complete cop out to blame the current government and not point out the source of the problem both financially and morally. These kids were born and or raised in Blairs Britain. Not Thatcher and not Cameron.



These problems are bigger than both parties.


I believe in free education I think a lot of people do wisdom and discipline is the key. The tution fees are making a new generation of people in debt coz they can't afford it but they want to better themselves by getting a degree. If parents could afford to pay they would realistically its not working out, a lot less kids are not going to uni. Thats not greed, war is greed. Theres no jobs they have nothing. I mean im not making excuses for them i was in the thatcher years and unemployment was high but i still went out doing my paper round at 12 yrs old, did my weekend jobs while at school and college, always found work when i was young i wasnt waiting for no govenment or anyone like my family to take care of me everything i have i went out and worked hard for it, and i wish these youths of today will have more ambition for themselves. But what needs to be address is why are they becoming like this, why do they think a life of crime is better than being a ambitious hard working? Why dont they wanna make there own money instead of wanting to steal others? Why dont they see a bright future ahead of them? Its coming from somewhere all this aggressive anger and hate, its not coming from nowhere.
FUNKNROLL! dancing jig "February 2014, wow". 'dre. nod
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Reply #116 posted 08/09/11 4:00am

tiadalma

avatar

powersoul99 said:

.

Same happened when Thatcher brought in her cutbacks.

And now we have that wanker Tory prime minister cutting back services and local youth schemes and we have riots again.

yeahthat

so, what is the answer 2 the question of U
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Reply #117 posted 08/09/11 4:19am

JOYJOY

avatar

SquirrelMeat said:

The current government has only been in a little over a year and there weren't any jobs a year ago either. Do you really believe that these kids went from being caring citizens to criminal thugs in one year because of Cameron and his mates?

This is at a social fabric level. Greed culture. Lack of disipline. Lack of respect. Over population and no pride in the country they choose to live in.

This has been boiling for years.

Preach!

One minute they want peace……

Then do everything to make it go away. rolleyes
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Reply #118 posted 08/09/11 4:22am

JOYJOY

avatar

elmer said:

London's a lovely place.

This broke my heart.. sad

The brazen selfishness of the youth involved in the unrest is astounding

One minute they want peace……

Then do everything to make it go away. rolleyes
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Reply #119 posted 08/09/11 4:26am

SquirrelMeat

avatar

catpark said:

SquirrelMeat said:

So why is the problem not the resulting aftermath of the previous labour government who created the financal mess in the 70's and now?

And the sudent fees are a prime example of the greed and respect. Two sides to the argument. Those who want there lifestyle choice paid by others, and those that don't think they should have to. Both have a good case.

Two sides. But only one side was smashing streets and pissing on war memorials.

Its a complete cop out to blame the current government and not point out the source of the problem both financially and morally. These kids were born and or raised in Blairs Britain. Not Thatcher and not Cameron.

These problems are bigger than both parties.

I believe in free education I think a lot of people do wisdom and discipline is the key. The tution fees are making a new generation of people in debt coz they can't afford it but they want to better themselves by getting a degree. If parents could afford to pay they would realistically its not working out, a lot less kids are not going to uni. Thats not greed, war is greed. Theres no jobs they have nothing. I mean im not making excuses for them i was in the thatcher years and unemployment was high but i still went out doing my paper round at 12 yrs old, did my weekend jobs while at school and college, always found work when i was young i wasnt waiting for no govenment or anyone like my family to take care of me everything i have i went out and worked hard for it, and i wish these youths of today will have more ambition for themselves. But what needs to be address is why are they becoming like this, why do they think a life of crime is better than being a ambitious hard working? Why dont they wanna make there own money instead of wanting to steal others? Why dont they see a bright future ahead of them? Its coming from somewhere all this aggressive anger and hate, its not coming from nowhere.

I agree with free education. I got one.

But there is a big difference between free education and free further education.

But regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, pissing on war memorials, burning peoples homes and looting shops has nothing to do with it.

The problem lies firmly at the feet of the useless parents who's kids are doing this, greed / material culture and overpopulation caused by the inhability of successive governments to tackle immigration properly and its impact that population has on existing local communities.

.
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Forums > Politics & Religion > Riot hits north London after police shooting death