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Thread started 06/25/10 3:18am

razor

'No foetal pain before 24 weeks'

There is no new evidence to show foetuses feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks, and so no reason to challenge the abortion limit, UK doctors say.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' review said foetuses are "undeveloped and sedated".

Brain connections are not fully formed, and the environment of the womb creates a state of induced sleep, like unconsciousness, they add.

The issue of whether a foetus of 24 weeks or below can feel pain had been raised in the debate over whether the current time limit for abortion should be reduced.

An up-to-date analysis of evidence was recommended by MPs in a report from the Commons Science and Technology committee during the last parliament, and commissioned by the Department of Health.

Ann Furedi, chief executive of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), said taken together the two reports would provide a clear basis for difficult decisions.

"Women and doctors need to be able to make informed decisions based on what science says, not what advocates, whether pro-choice or anti-choice, wish it said."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...403496.stm

Knowledge and science combining with and informing our ethics without dogma in sight. Wonderful stuff.

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #1 posted 06/25/10 4:34am

CarrieMpls

Ex-Moderator

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razor said:

Knowledge and science combining with and informing our ethics without dogma in sight. Wonderful stuff.

Hear, hear!

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Reply #2 posted 06/25/10 7:40am

OnlyNDaUsa

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so if something feels no pain it is okay to kill it?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #3 posted 06/25/10 8:17am

razor

OnlyNDaUsa said:

so if something feels no pain it is okay to kill it?

rolleyes Unless you are seriously suggesting that all abortion should be illegal, that point is largely irrelevant.

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #4 posted 06/25/10 11:42am

PurpleJedi

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hmmm

Go ahead an Google "6 month fetus" and take a look at the stage of development that they're talking about. I find it difficult to believe that at such an advanced state there is "no pain".

I am pro-choice, but not for late-term pregnancies.

If anyone wants to argue this "no pain" issue as a justification for late term abortions...then I'd like to simultaneously propose that they allow guillotines back, and for death row inmates to be fully sedated before they are quickly & efficiently beheaded instead of the sloppy hanging/electrocution/lethal injection that is commonly used. NO PAIN.

By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
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Reply #5 posted 06/25/10 3:18pm

SUPRMAN

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

so if something feels no pain it is okay to kill it?

Yes. Isn't that how we treat plants, insects bacteria, algae, etc?

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #6 posted 06/25/10 5:34pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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SUPRMAN said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

so if something feels no pain it is okay to kill it?

Yes. Isn't that how we treat plants, insects bacteria, algae, etc?

ARE you saying plants do not feel?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #7 posted 06/26/10 7:14am

shellyevon

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24 weeks is considered viable and some even younger are being saved.

It seems it all comes down to whether a child is wanted or not.

I too am pro choice but not for late abortions.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"-Dr Seuss

Pain is something to carry, like a radio...You should stand up for your right to feel your pain- Jim Morrison
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Reply #8 posted 06/26/10 5:03pm

PunkMistress

avatar

PurpleJedi said:

hmmm

Go ahead an Google "6 month fetus" and take a look at the stage of development that they're talking about. I find it difficult to believe that at such an advanced state there is "no pain".

I am pro-choice, but not for late-term pregnancies.

If anyone wants to argue this "no pain" issue as a justification for late term abortions...then I'd like to simultaneously propose that they allow guillotines back, and for death row inmates to be fully sedated before they are quickly & efficiently beheaded instead of the sloppy hanging/electrocution/lethal injection that is commonly used. NO PAIN.

PurpleJedi, this is the kind of reasoning that really troubles me. Looking at a picture that we perceive to look like a developed human gives us absolutely no indication of the formation of neural pathways that send pain signals.

It's what you make it.
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Reply #9 posted 06/26/10 6:34pm

PurpleJedi

avatar

PunkMistress said:

PurpleJedi said:

hmmm

Go ahead an Google "6 month fetus" and take a look at the stage of development that they're talking about. I find it difficult to believe that at such an advanced state there is "no pain".

I am pro-choice, but not for late-term pregnancies.

If anyone wants to argue this "no pain" issue as a justification for late term abortions...then I'd like to simultaneously propose that they allow guillotines back, and for death row inmates to be fully sedated before they are quickly & efficiently beheaded instead of the sloppy hanging/electrocution/lethal injection that is commonly used. NO PAIN.

PurpleJedi, this is the kind of reasoning that really troubles me. Looking at a picture that we perceive to look like a developed human gives us absolutely no indication of the formation of neural pathways that send pain signals.

Why does it trouble you?

The topic of this thread has to do with "pain". Would a 6 month old fetus "feel pain" and if not, then would an abortion be acceptable.

Now...let's look at the development of a 5 and a 6 month old fetus (from justmommies.com);

Month 5: Your baby is developing a fine hair, called lanugo, which covers the body. Likewise, her eyelashes and eyebrows are developing. Her fingerprints and footprints are now developed. She begins to suck and swallow and may even be found sucking her thumb. Vernix, a white lanolin-like covering, appears on baby to protect her skin. Her ears are developed as well and she may be able to hear you now. Your baby is approximately 7-8 inches long and weighs 3/4-1 pound by the end of this month.
Month 6: Your baby's immune system is developing and she is beginning to create her own antibodies. She has developed a hand grip reflex and startle reflex. Her lungs are beginning to develop and alveoli are forming. She is growing and filling out. She looks more and more like the person she will be when she is born. By the end of this month, she is approximately 9-10 inches long and weigh in at about 1 1/2-2 1/4 pounds.

By 5 months the unborn baby is sucking its thumb. Yet someone wants to say "well the brain doesn't feel pain, so it's OK to slice it to bits and yank it out of the womb".

shrug That's what bothers me.

I think - and this is my opinion of course - that by the 3rd month when the heart starts beating, the fetus changes from "lump of reproductive cells" into "unborn baby".

By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
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Reply #10 posted 06/27/10 2:38am

PunkMistress

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PurpleJedi said:

PunkMistress said:

PurpleJedi, this is the kind of reasoning that really troubles me. Looking at a picture that we perceive to look like a developed human gives us absolutely no indication of the formation of neural pathways that send pain signals.

Why does it trouble you?

The topic of this thread has to do with "pain". Would a 6 month old fetus "feel pain" and if not, then would an abortion be acceptable.

Now...let's look at the development of a 5 and a 6 month old fetus (from justmommies.com);

Month 5: Your baby is developing a fine hair, called lanugo, which covers the body. Likewise, her eyelashes and eyebrows are developing. Her fingerprints and footprints are now developed. She begins to suck and swallow and may even be found sucking her thumb. Vernix, a white lanolin-like covering, appears on baby to protect her skin. Her ears are developed as well and she may be able to hear you now. Your baby is approximately 7-8 inches long and weighs 3/4-1 pound by the end of this month.
Month 6: Your baby's immune system is developing and she is beginning to create her own antibodies. She has developed a hand grip reflex and startle reflex. Her lungs are beginning to develop and alveoli are forming. She is growing and filling out. She looks more and more like the person she will be when she is born. By the end of this month, she is approximately 9-10 inches long and weigh in at about 1 1/2-2 1/4 pounds.

By 5 months the unborn baby is sucking its thumb. Yet someone wants to say "well the brain doesn't feel pain, so it's OK to slice it to bits and yank it out of the womb".

shrug That's what bothers me.

I think - and this is my opinion of course - that by the 3rd month when the heart starts beating, the fetus changes from "lump of reproductive cells" into "unborn baby".

It troubles me because it's touchy-feely, not science.

The touchy-feely cuteness of a fetus (totally subjective) has no bearing on the science of neural pathways and pain signals (objective science).

It's what you make it.
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Reply #11 posted 06/27/10 4:21am

mcmeekle

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I don't see what difference pain or no pain makes.

If I was a 24 week old fetus, feeling pain at my termination would be the least of my worries.

Or is it the mother/doctor that feels no pain?

shrug

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Reply #12 posted 06/27/10 6:33am

shellyevon

avatar

PunkMistress said:

PurpleJedi said:

Why does it trouble you?

The topic of this thread has to do with "pain". Would a 6 month old fetus "feel pain" and if not, then would an abortion be acceptable.

Now...let's look at the development of a 5 and a 6 month old fetus (from justmommies.com);

Month 5: Your baby is developing a fine hair, called lanugo, which covers the body. Likewise, her eyelashes and eyebrows are developing. Her fingerprints and footprints are now developed. She begins to suck and swallow and may even be found sucking her thumb. Vernix, a white lanolin-like covering, appears on baby to protect her skin. Her ears are developed as well and she may be able to hear you now. Your baby is approximately 7-8 inches long and weighs 3/4-1 pound by the end of this month.
Month 6: Your baby's immune system is developing and she is beginning to create her own antibodies. She has developed a hand grip reflex and startle reflex. Her lungs are beginning to develop and alveoli are forming. She is growing and filling out. She looks more and more like the person she will be when she is born. By the end of this month, she is approximately 9-10 inches long and weigh in at about 1 1/2-2 1/4 pounds.

By 5 months the unborn baby is sucking its thumb. Yet someone wants to say "well the brain doesn't feel pain, so it's OK to slice it to bits and yank it out of the womb".

shrug That's what bothers me.

I think - and this is my opinion of course - that by the 3rd month when the heart starts beating, the fetus changes from "lump of reproductive cells" into "unborn baby".

It troubles me because it's touchy-feely, not science.

The touchy-feely cuteness of a fetus (totally subjective) has no bearing on the science of neural pathways and pain signals (objective science).


Touchy- feely has nothing to do with it. 24 week old fetuses are considered viable (objective science).

There have been some 20 week old premies who have survived.

Do they feel pain? I don't know, but they most certainly react to touch.

[Edited 6/27/10 7:00am]

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"-Dr Seuss

Pain is something to carry, like a radio...You should stand up for your right to feel your pain- Jim Morrison
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Reply #13 posted 06/27/10 6:53am

MrsMdiver

shellyevon said:

PunkMistress said:

It troubles me because it's touchy-feely, not science.

The touchy-feely cuteness of a fetus (totally subjective) has no bearing on the science of neural pathways and pain signals (objective science).


Touchy- feely has nothing to do with it. 24 week old feuses are considered viable (objective science).

There have been some 20 week old premies who have survived.

Do they feel pain? I don't know, but they most certainly react to touch.

[Edited 6/27/10 6:40am]

I am Pro choice but I am not sure how I feel about this.

I am on my way to go watch football at our next door neighbours house. They have a set of twin boys that were born at 26 weeks. They just turned 8 years old.

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Reply #14 posted 06/27/10 6:55am

Genesia

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Whether it is true or not, anyone who would use this as mitigation for late-term abortion is one sick puppy.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #15 posted 06/27/10 7:24am

OnlyNDaUsa

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Genesia said:

Whether it is true or not, anyone who would use this as mitigation for late-term abortion is one sick puppy.

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

Mitigation of ate-term abortion would me to reduce them.

But you might be touching on what I was going to get to. That if you use this as means to help justify early term abortions then it could be used to limit late term abortions. If the feel pain at 25 weeks then that ought to be something the woman should be told about. I am opposed to anything less than full discloser. I like the idea of an ultrasound. There are so many lies and so much misinformation about the development of a fetus that many woman are being intentionally mislead to help them choose an abortion.

Which I am all for. Even the Supreme Court allows for sweeping bans on late term abortions. So under the much used (over used and often misused) landmark case late term abortions can be banned.

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #16 posted 06/27/10 7:37am

PurpleJedi

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PunkMistress said:

It troubles me because it's touchy-feely, not science.

The touchy-feely cuteness of a fetus (totally subjective) has no bearing on the science of neural pathways and pain signals (objective science).

lol

"touchy-feely" is part of this thing called emotion, which is a very, very human thing.

Take any hotly contested topic (Race, Religion, Abortion, Death Penalty, etc., etc.) and you'll find that it's all "totally subjective". It's part of us being humans. Anything that can be completely explained by science ("why is the sky blue?") does not result in heated discourse.

By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
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Reply #17 posted 06/27/10 7:48am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

PurpleJedi said:

PunkMistress said:

It troubles me because it's touchy-feely, not science.

The touchy-feely cuteness of a fetus (totally subjective) has no bearing on the science of neural pathways and pain signals (objective science).

lol

"touchy-feely" is part of this thing called emotion, which is a very, very human thing.

Take any hotly contested topic (Race, Religion, Abortion, Death Penalty, etc., etc.) and you'll find that it's all "totally subjective". It's part of us being humans. Anything that can be completely explained by science ("why is the sky blue?") does not result in heated discourse.

it is also touchy feely to want or expect any privacy. The idea that a woman should be able to have an abortion based on privacy is touchy feely.

What is NOT touchy feely are the stages of development of a fetus. At 24 weeks a fetus is unmistakably human and can and often do live to full term.

[Edited 6/27/10 7:50am]

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #18 posted 06/27/10 7:56am

Mach

CarrieMpls said:

razor said:

Knowledge and science combining with and informing our ethics without dogma in sight. Wonderful stuff.

Hear, hear!

thumbs up!

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Reply #19 posted 06/27/10 8:38am

Genesia

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Genesia said:

Whether it is true or not, anyone who would use this as mitigation for late-term abortion is one sick puppy.

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

Mitigation of ate-term abortion would me to reduce them.

But you might be touching on what I was going to get to. That if you use this as means to help justify early term abortions then it could be used to limit late term abortions. If the feel pain at 25 weeks then that ought to be something the woman should be told about. I am opposed to anything less than full discloser. I like the idea of an ultrasound. There are so many lies and so much misinformation about the development of a fetus that many woman are being intentionally mislead to help them choose an abortion.

Which I am all for. Even the Supreme Court allows for sweeping bans on late term abortions. So under the much used (over used and often misused) landmark case late term abortions can be banned.

Mitigation:

- to act in such a way as to cause an offense to seem less serious

- moderating pain or sorrow by making it easier to bear

- lessening or trying to lessen the seriousness or extent of

Take your pick.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #20 posted 06/27/10 8:53am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

Genesia said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

Mitigation of ate-term abortion would me to reduce them.

But you might be touching on what I was going to get to. That if you use this as means to help justify early term abortions then it could be used to limit late term abortions. If the feel pain at 25 weeks then that ought to be something the woman should be told about. I am opposed to anything less than full discloser. I like the idea of an ultrasound. There are so many lies and so much misinformation about the development of a fetus that many woman are being intentionally mislead to help them choose an abortion.

Which I am all for. Even the Supreme Court allows for sweeping bans on late term abortions. So under the much used (over used and often misused) landmark case late term abortions can be banned.

Mitigation:

- to act in such a way as to cause an offense to seem less serious

- moderating pain or sorrow by making it easier to bear

- lessening or trying to lessen the seriousness or extent of

Take your pick.

i got ya.

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #21 posted 06/27/10 7:32pm

PunkMistress

avatar

PurpleJedi said:

PunkMistress said:

It troubles me because it's touchy-feely, not science.

The touchy-feely cuteness of a fetus (totally subjective) has no bearing on the science of neural pathways and pain signals (objective science).

lol

"touchy-feely" is part of this thing called emotion, which is a very, very human thing.

Take any hotly contested topic (Race, Religion, Abortion, Death Penalty, etc., etc.) and you'll find that it's all "totally subjective". It's part of us being humans. Anything that can be completely explained by science ("why is the sky blue?") does not result in heated discourse.

You make a good point. I'm just saying "look at a picture of it" doesn't really convince me of whether or not a fetus feel pain signals.

shrug

It's what you make it.
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Reply #22 posted 06/28/10 8:45am

SUPRMAN

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

SUPRMAN said:

Yes. Isn't that how we treat plants, insects bacteria, algae, etc?

ARE you saying plants do not feel?

No,

I'm saying we treat them as if they don't. Cutting down forests for example. Harvesting crops.

[Edited 6/28/10 8:45am]

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #23 posted 06/28/10 8:49am

SUPRMAN

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Genesia said:

Whether it is true or not, anyone who would use this as mitigation for late-term abortion is one sick puppy.

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

Mitigation of ate-term abortion would me to reduce them.

But you might be touching on what I was going to get to. That if you use this as means to help justify early term abortions then it could be used to limit late term abortions. If the feel pain at 25 weeks then that ought to be something the woman should be told about. I am opposed to anything less than full discloser. I like the idea of an ultrasound. There are so many lies and so much misinformation about the development of a fetus that many woman are being intentionally mislead to help them choose an abortion.

Which I am all for. Even the Supreme Court allows for sweeping bans on late term abortions. So under the much used (over used and often misused) landmark case late term abortions can be banned.

Is a pregnant woman incapable of doing her own research?!

What constitutes full disclosure?

I don't think it's required to have an abortion.

You know you are pregnant, you know if you don't end it, a child results.

Decide.

I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #24 posted 06/29/10 12:22am

ZombieKitten

mcmeekle said:

I don't see what difference pain or no pain makes.

If I was a 24 week old fetus, feeling pain at my termination would be the least of my worries.

Or is it the mother/doctor that feels no pain?

shrug

does the child receive anaesthesia before being scooped out? neutral

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Reply #25 posted 06/29/10 1:50am

mcmeekle

avatar

ZombieKitten said:

mcmeekle said:

I don't see what difference pain or no pain makes.

If I was a 24 week old fetus, feeling pain at my termination would be the least of my worries.

Or is it the mother/doctor that feels no pain?

shrug

does the child receive anaesthesia before being scooped out? neutral

I have no idea. confused

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Reply #26 posted 06/29/10 1:52am

ZombieKitten

mcmeekle said:

ZombieKitten said:

does the child receive anaesthesia before being scooped out? neutral

I have no idea. confused

cry

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Reply #27 posted 06/29/10 3:10am

MrsMdiver

ZombieKitten said:

mcmeekle said:

I have no idea. confused

cry

co....

cry

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Reply #28 posted 06/29/10 3:12am

razor

mcmeekle said:

I don't see what difference pain or no pain makes.

If I was a 24 week old fetus, feeling pain at my termination would be the least of my worries.

Or is it the mother/doctor that feels no pain?

shrug

I think it definately matters in making such a decision. And of course that is partly related to the phychological effect on the woman (and man) involved. I imagine for some people understanding whether pain is involved or not would be a crucial factor in any decision.

"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond
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Reply #29 posted 06/29/10 3:15am

ZombieKitten

razor said:

mcmeekle said:

I don't see what difference pain or no pain makes.

If I was a 24 week old fetus, feeling pain at my termination would be the least of my worries.

Or is it the mother/doctor that feels no pain?

shrug

I think it definately matters in making such a decision. And of course that is partly related to the phychological effect on the woman (and man) involved. I imagine for some people understanding whether pain is involved or not would be a crucial factor in any decision.

shit yeah!

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