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Thread started 09/09/09 6:44am

Purple123

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Why do African Americans...?

Complaine (including myself about what white people ahve done or do to us, then turn right around and totally disrespect our selves and do bad things to one another? This just baffles me to no end. Have we been taught to hate ourselves this much? Does this STILL have something to do with slavery, are we still inslaved mentally?

Why is this happening?
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Reply #1 posted 09/09/09 6:57am

2elijah

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lol What do you mean complain about what white people have done to us? lol I only point fingers at those who actually committed racist crimes of the past, during slavery/jim crow days, based on dcoumented facts of those who committed racist acts against us or others today. Keep in mind, when slavery is discussed, it does not mean its purpose is to "blame all white people or impose guilt on them", as not all white people in the past, participated in specific, racist actions such as slavery, although many of us have pointed out, that many whites knowingly, and many obliviously enjoyed the everyday privileges and spoils of specific freedoms and privileges, denied to many Blacks, due to racist laws created by former powers-that-be, that caused that divide, and made life much harder at that time and during post-slavery, for many Black Americans in this country, causing tension and mistrust between Blacks and whites, in which much of that tension and mistrust, have pretty much spilled into present day America, between Blacks and Whites or there would be no discussion on race issues whatsoever. So Purple123, although I sort of understand and respect your question, I just think you generalized your statement a bit much.

It's also no surprise that people from all races and ethnic groups, do bad things to one another, it is not just limited to Blacks, and to say that, would also be generalizing, and can give the wrong assumptions of all Blacks, and we have enough stereotypical and false information tagged on us already. But I do agree that a lot of the past, has a lot to do with the disrespect, mentality and attitudes, and sometimes anger, that come out of the Black community. In my opinion, these days it seems I am seeing more lack of respect towards family values these days, just based on some of the behaviors I've seen in public, displayed by many of our youth in the past 10 years. I wouldn't put all the blame on the parents, but society as a whole, as well as other sources, like the various medias, that exposes certain situations to our youth and society as a whole, and most of what is exposed, comes from adults. I see similar, disrespectful behaviors coming from youth from other race groups as well.

I do understand though, that if you mean those within our community that commit crimes against our own, like those who join gangs, that sell drugs to our children/adults;murder our own; commit domestic abuse;youth and adults disrespecting one another, etc., but those are social situations that happens within every race or ethnic group, and has no specific requirements or limitations as to any of it being committed by one specific group.

In my opinion though, unlike other groups, this society, especially the media, tends to shed a very negative light on our community as though, only social and economic problems exists just in ours. But, unfortunately, on the other hand, it seems crime in the black community is on a larger scale than those in most. communities. With many of our youth killing one another at a higher rate, over silly BS, more than other youth in various communities, which is a crying shame. Much of that, I believe, is due to economic and social situations going on in many of these youths' homes, lives and communities, where they may not have a strong, parental figure(s) around to move them in the right direction or their families may be lacking some basic, financial and educational resources needed, in order to help them move upward, economically and educationally.

As a whole, there's still a lot of work to do within our communities, economically, socially and politically, as well as repairing many years of psychological.damage from the past, that at times, reflects itself on the mentality and attitudes of those within our communities, unfortunately.
[Edited 9/9/09 20:04pm]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #2 posted 09/09/09 8:23am

Lammastide

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Self hate/deprecation, perhaps learned from a legacy of racism, may be part of it. But I dare say it's done primarily for the same reason that any group or individual might recognize harm from an outside force and yet still be a harm to themselves elsewhere. It's just a stupid inconsistency of being human. shrug I know not a single person who complains if someone/something else violates them, and yet isn't a foil to him/herself.
[Edited 9/9/09 8:31am]
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #3 posted 09/09/09 1:20pm

SUPRMAN

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lurking
I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #4 posted 09/09/09 7:32pm

PurpleJedi

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2elijah said:

lol What do you mean complain about what white people have done to us? lol I only point fingers at those who actually committed racist crimes of the past, during slavery/jim crow days, based on dcoumented facts of those who committed racist acts against us or others today. Keep in mind, when slavery is discussed, it does not mean its purpose is to "blame all white people or impose guilt on them", as not all white people in the past, participated in specific, racist actions such as slavery, although many of us have pointed out, that many whites knowingly, and many obliviously enjoyed the everyday privileges and spoils of specific freedoms and privileges, denied to many Blacks, the due to racist laws created by former powers-that-be, that caused that divide, and made life much harder at that time and post-slavery, for many Black Americans in this country, causing tension and mistrust between Blacks and whites, in which much of that tension and mistrust, have pretty much spilled into present day America, between Blacks and Whites or there would be no discussion on race issues whatsoever. So Purple123, although I sort of understand and respect your question, I just think you generalized your statement a bit much.

It's also no surprise that people from all races and ethnic groups, do bad things to one another, it is not just limited to Blacks, and to say that, would also be generalizing, and can give the wrong assumptions of all Blacks, and we have enough stereotypical and false information tagged on us already. But I do agree that a lot of the past, has a lot to do with the disrespect, mentality and attitudes, and sometimes anger, that come out of the Black community. In my opinion, these days it seems I am seeing more lack of respect towards family values these days, just based on some of the behaviors I've seen in public, displayed by many of our youth in the past 10 years. I wouldn't put all the blame on the parents, but society as a whole, as well as other sources, like the various medias, that exposes certain situations to our youth and society as a whole, and most of what is exposed, comes from adults. I see similar, disrespectful behaviors coming from youth from other race groups as well.

I do understand though, that if you mean those within our community that commit crimes against our own, like those who join gangs, that sell drugs to our children/adults;murder our own; commit domestic abuse;youth and adults disrespecting one another, etc., but those are social situations that happens within every race or ethnic group, and has no specific requirements or limitations as to any of it being committed by one specific group.

In my opinion though, unlike other groups, this society, especially the media, tends to shed a very negative light on our community as though, only social and economic problems exists just in ours. But, unfortunately, on the other hand, it seems crime in the black community is on a larger scale than those in most. communities. With many of our youth killing one another at a higher rate, over silly BS, more than other youth in various communities, which is a crying shame. Much of that, I believe, is due to economic and social situations going on in many of these youths' homes, lives and communities, where they may not have a strong, parental figure(s) around to move them in the right direction or their families may be lacking some basic, financial and educational resources needed, in order to help them move upward, economically and educationally.

As a whole, there's still a lot of work to do within our communities, economically, socially and politically, as well as repairing many years of psychological.damage from the past, that at times, reflects itself on the mentality and attitudes of those within our communities, unfortunately.


clapping
Nice response!

Yeah, it's important to distinguish between "racists" and "white people". The two are NOT one-&-the-same. Without forward-thinking white people, slavery would not have been abolished, and segregation would not have ended.

I have mentioned in the past an article written in (Long Island's) Newsday once that discussed the disparity in upward mobility between "American" black people and "immigrant" black people (Jamaicans, Haitians, etc.). Immigrants had an easier time opening businesses and moving up the economic ladder, and the article argued that it could be because in the islands of the Caribean, blacks are used to seing themselves in positions of power (business owners, policemen, lawyers, doctors, mayors, presidents, etc.). The stigma of slavery is (for the most part) long gone out there.
By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
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Reply #5 posted 09/09/09 7:50pm

2elijah

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PurpleJedi said:

2elijah said:

lol What do you mean complain about what white people have done to us? lol I only point fingers at those who actually committed racist crimes of the past, during slavery/jim crow days, based on dcoumented facts of those who committed racist acts against us or others today. Keep in mind, when slavery is discussed, it does not mean its purpose is to "blame all white people or impose guilt on them", as not all white people in the past, participated in specific, racist actions such as slavery, although many of us have pointed out, that many whites knowingly, and many obliviously enjoyed the everyday privileges and spoils of specific freedoms and privileges, denied to many Blacks, the due to racist laws created by former powers-that-be, that caused that divide, and made life much harder at that time and post-slavery, for many Black Americans in this country, causing tension and mistrust between Blacks and whites, in which much of that tension and mistrust, have pretty much spilled into present day America, between Blacks and Whites or there would be no discussion on race issues whatsoever. So Purple123, although I sort of understand and respect your question, I just think you generalized your statement a bit much.

It's also no surprise that people from all races and ethnic groups, do bad things to one another, it is not just limited to Blacks, and to say that, would also be generalizing, and can give the wrong assumptions of all Blacks, and we have enough stereotypical and false information tagged on us already. But I do agree that a lot of the past, has a lot to do with the disrespect, mentality and attitudes, and sometimes anger, that come out of the Black community. In my opinion, these days it seems I am seeing more lack of respect towards family values these days, just based on some of the behaviors I've seen in public, displayed by many of our youth in the past 10 years. I wouldn't put all the blame on the parents, but society as a whole, as well as other sources, like the various medias, that exposes certain situations to our youth and society as a whole, and most of what is exposed, comes from adults. I see similar, disrespectful behaviors coming from youth from other race groups as well.

I do understand though, that if you mean those within our community that commit crimes against our own, like those who join gangs, that sell drugs to our children/adults;murder our own; commit domestic abuse;youth and adults disrespecting one another, etc., but those are social situations that happens within every race or ethnic group, and has no specific requirements or limitations as to any of it being committed by one specific group.

In my opinion though, unlike other groups, this society, especially the media, tends to shed a very negative light on our community as though, only social and economic problems exists just in ours. But, unfortunately, on the other hand, it seems crime in the black community is on a larger scale than those in most. communities. With many of our youth killing one another at a higher rate, over silly BS, more than other youth in various communities, which is a crying shame. Much of that, I believe, is due to economic and social situations going on in many of these youths' homes, lives and communities, where they may not have a strong, parental figure(s) around to move them in the right direction or their families may be lacking some basic, financial and educational resources needed, in order to help them move upward, economically and educationally.

As a whole, there's still a lot of work to do within our communities, economically, socially and politically, as well as repairing many years of psychological.damage from the past, that at times, reflects itself on the mentality and attitudes of those within our communities, unfortunately.


clapping
Nice response!

Yeah, it's important to distinguish between "racists" and "white people". The two are NOT one-&-the-same. Without forward-thinking white people, slavery would not have been abolished, and segregation would not have ended.

I have mentioned in the past an article written in (Long Island's) Newsday once that discussed the disparity in upward mobility between "American" black people and "immigrant" black people (Jamaicans, Haitians, etc.). Immigrants had an easier time opening businesses and moving up the economic ladder, and the article argued that it could be because in the islands of the Caribean, blacks are used to seing themselves in positions of power (business owners, policemen, lawyers, doctors, mayors, presidents, etc.). The stigma of slavery is (for the most part) long gone out there.



Thanks PurpleJedi, for understanding my point, but I have to address your comment in regards to American Blacks vs Blacks from the Caribbean islands. As you know I am of Caribbean descent, both parents/maternal/paternal grandparents and great grandparents, which the latter is the farthest I have info on regarding my family. Anyway, I experienced some "cultural" , not racial, prejudices, between American Blacks and those of the Caribbean, as a young girl growing up in NYC. I often denied or tried to hide the fact that my family was of Caribbean descent, because of all the stereotypical assumptions said about Blacks of Caribbean descent, from American-born Blacks during my early years (i.e, American Blacks from the southern/northern part of the U.S).

Thing is, many Blacks from the Caribbean come to the states with misconceptions of American Blacks, because of the negative images, often times portrayed by the media about them. Black Caribbeans, in my opinion and experiences with many of them, and I can only speak for myself, most are very proud of their cultures, and they will let you know it. They love their culture, and they don't hide it. Maybe that is why many Americans probably get the wrong impression about them at times.

In my experience, and I'm sure many others, the disparities between both groups was due to miseducation about each other. Keep in mind, both groups share the same ancestors and the same, historical stories, but what separates them are their "cultures". Many from both groups are descendants of Africans, where many were taken to America, while the other groups were taken to the Caribbean islands as slaves, but still, similar histories, and in present day, similar, yet varied cultures.

The communication and education of both groups, have somewhat improved over the years though. In my experience, growing up in the American Black culture entertwined with the Caribbean culture of my family. I embrace both cultures, and educate those within both groups, whenever I am engaged in a conversation, and hear something false about those, from either group. I try to educate them about the stereotypical assumptions, that seems to surface occasionally.

Don't get me wrong, I define myself as African/Black-American, because that is what I am, despite the fact that I am also of Caribbean descent, due to being raised by parents born in the Caribbean, and embracing their culture as mine too, and since I was born and raised in the states, and grew up within the African-American culture, I can embrace both.
[Edited 9/9/09 20:17pm]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #6 posted 09/09/09 8:15pm

vainandy

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2elijah said:

lol What do you mean complain about what white people have done to us? lol I only point fingers at those who actually committed racist crimes of the past, during slavery/jim crow days, based on dcoumented facts of those who committed racist acts against us or others today. Keep in mind, when slavery is discussed, it does not mean its purpose is to "blame all white people or impose guilt on them", as not all white people in the past, participated in specific, racist actions such as slavery, although many of us have pointed out, that many whites knowingly, and many obliviously enjoyed the everyday privileges and spoils of specific freedoms and privileges, denied to many Blacks, due to racist laws created by former powers-that-be, that caused that divide, and made life much harder at that time and during post-slavery, for many Black Americans in this country, causing tension and mistrust between Blacks and whites, in which much of that tension and mistrust, have pretty much spilled into present day America, between Blacks and Whites or there would be no discussion on race issues whatsoever. So Purple123, although I sort of understand and respect your question, I just think you generalized your statement a bit much.

It's also no surprise that people from all races and ethnic groups, do bad things to one another, it is not just limited to Blacks, and to say that, would also be generalizing, and can give the wrong assumptions of all Blacks, and we have enough stereotypical and false information tagged on us already. But I do agree that a lot of the past, has a lot to do with the disrespect, mentality and attitudes, and sometimes anger, that come out of the Black community. In my opinion, these days it seems I am seeing more lack of respect towards family values these days, just based on some of the behaviors I've seen in public, displayed by many of our youth in the past 10 years. I wouldn't put all the blame on the parents, but society as a whole, as well as other sources, like the various medias, that exposes certain situations to our youth and society as a whole, and most of what is exposed, comes from adults. I see similar, disrespectful behaviors coming from youth from other race groups as well.

I do understand though, that if you mean those within our community that commit crimes against our own, like those who join gangs, that sell drugs to our children/adults;murder our own; commit domestic abuse;youth and adults disrespecting one another, etc., but those are social situations that happens within every race or ethnic group, and has no specific requirements or limitations as to any of it being committed by one specific group.

In my opinion though, unlike other groups, this society, especially the media, tends to shed a very negative light on our community as though, only social and economic problems exists just in ours. But, unfortunately, on the other hand, it seems crime in the black community is on a larger scale than those in most. communities. With many of our youth killing one another at a higher rate, over silly BS, more than other youth in various communities, which is a crying shame. Much of that, I believe, is due to economic and social situations going on in many of these youths' homes, lives and communities, where they may not have a strong, parental figure(s) around to move them in the right direction or their families may be lacking some basic, financial and educational resources needed, in order to help them move upward, economically and educationally.

As a whole, there's still a lot of work to do within our communities, economically, socially and politically, as well as repairing many years of psychological.damage from the past, that at times, reflects itself on the mentality and attitudes of those within our communities, unfortunately.
[Edited 9/9/09 20:04pm]


Excellent post. And black people sure aren't the only race that shits on members of their own race. Every race does it, gay people do it too, hell, even animals shit on their own kind. Why? Because each and every living thing is an individual with a mind of their own and sometimes minds clash with each other.
Andy is a four letter word.
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Reply #7 posted 09/09/09 8:31pm

jjhunsecker

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2elijah said:

PurpleJedi said:



clapping
Nice response!

Yeah, it's important to distinguish between "racists" and "white people". The two are NOT one-&-the-same. Without forward-thinking white people, slavery would not have been abolished, and segregation would not have ended.

I have mentioned in the past an article written in (Long Island's) Newsday once that discussed the disparity in upward mobility between "American" black people and "immigrant" black people (Jamaicans, Haitians, etc.). Immigrants had an easier time opening businesses and moving up the economic ladder, and the article argued that it could be because in the islands of the Caribean, blacks are used to seing themselves in positions of power (business owners, policemen, lawyers, doctors, mayors, presidents, etc.). The stigma of slavery is (for the most part) long gone out there.



Thanks PurpleJedi, for understanding my point, but I have to address your comment in regards to American Blacks vs Blacks from the Caribbean islands. As you know I am of Caribbean descent, both parents/maternal/paternal grandparents and great grandparents, which the latter is the farthest I have info on regarding my family. Anyway, I experienced some "cultural" , not racial, prejudices, between American Blacks and those of the Caribbean, as a young girl growing up in NYC. I often denied or tried to hide the fact that my family was of Caribbean descent, because of all the stereotypical assumptions said about Blacks of Caribbean descent, from American-born Blacks during my early years (i.e, American Blacks from the southern/northern part of the U.S).

Thing is, many Blacks from the Caribbean come to the states with misconceptions of American Blacks, because of the negative images, often times portrayed by the media about them. Black Caribbeans, in my opinion and experiences with many of them, and I can only speak for myself, most are very proud of their cultures, and they will let you know it. They love their culture, and they don't hide it. Maybe that is why many Americans probably get the wrong impression about them at times.

In my experience, and I'm sure many others, the disparities between both groups was due to miseducation about each other. Keep in mind, both groups share the same ancestors and the same, historical stories, but what separates them are their "cultures". Many from both groups are descendants of Africans, where many were taken to America, while the other groups were taken to the Caribbean islands as slaves, but still, similar histories, and in present day, similar, yet varied cultures.

The communication and education of both groups, have somewhat improved over the years though. In my experience, growing up in the American Black culture entertwined with the Caribbean culture of my family. I embrace both cultures, and educate those within both groups, whenever I am engaged in a conversation, and hear something false about those, from either group. I try to educate them about the stereotypical assumptions, that seems to surface occasionally.

Don't get me wrong, I define myself as African/Black-American, because that is what I am, despite the fact that I am also of Caribbean descent, due to being raised by parents born in the Caribbean, and embracing their culture as mine too, and since I was born and raised in the states, and grew up within the African-American culture, I can embrace both.
[Edited 9/9/09 20:17pm]

I find your view quite interesting. I am also of Caribbean descent (both sets of grandparents born in Jamaica). What I see as the biggest disparity between "immigrant" blacks and "native" blacks, is that there is no stigma among black immigrants (Africans, Haitians, other Caribbeans) for intellectual achievement, or in working in the "mainstream" world. While there is a segment of native American blacks, particularly among younger people, that will attack fellow blacks who don't conform to their narrow views of blackness as "sell-outs", or "trying to act White", particularly towards those who push themselves academically or explore other cultural options. Certainly not all native born Blacks believe this, but we cannot deny that there is a part of the culture that views the world this way.
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Reply #8 posted 09/09/09 9:23pm

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:


I find your view quite interesting. I am also of Caribbean descent (both sets of grandparents born in Jamaica). What I see as the biggest disparity between "immigrant" blacks and "native" blacks, is that there is no stigma among black immigrants (Africans, Haitians, other Caribbeans) for intellectual achievement, or in working in the "mainstream" world. While there is a segment of native American blacks, particularly among younger people, that will attack fellow blacks who don't conform to their narrow views of blackness as "sell-outs", or "trying to act White", particularly towards those who push themselves academically or explore other cultural options. Certainly not all native born Blacks believe this, but we cannot deny that there is a part of the culture that views the world this way
.

I see your point and agree that not all do it, but you do hear it among many of the young people.. The young folks do that because they are misinformed and don't know any better. They equate "educated" with being "white", which is a false assumption to say the least. Skin color does not determine one's intelligence, and that is what they need to understand. It's unfortunate they would equate "intelligence" with skin color, as though it is a "requirement" for higher learning.
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #9 posted 09/09/09 9:24pm

2elijah

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vainandy said:



Excellent post. And black people sure aren't the only race that shits on members of their own race. Every race does it, gay people do it too, hell, even animals shit on their own kind. Why? Because each and every living thing is an individual with a mind of their own and sometimes minds clash with each other.


Absolutely. Good point Vain. I find that all races do it to each other.
[Edited 9/10/09 8:04am]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #10 posted 09/09/09 11:15pm

SUPRMAN

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2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:


I find your view quite interesting. I am also of Caribbean descent (both sets of grandparents born in Jamaica). What I see as the biggest disparity between "immigrant" blacks and "native" blacks, is that there is no stigma among black immigrants (Africans, Haitians, other Caribbeans) for intellectual achievement, or in working in the "mainstream" world. While there is a segment of native American blacks, particularly among younger people, that will attack fellow blacks who don't conform to their narrow views of blackness as "sell-outs", or "trying to act White", particularly towards those who push themselves academically or explore other cultural options. Certainly not all native born Blacks believe this, but we cannot deny that there is a part of the culture that views the world this way
.

I see your point and agree that not all do it, but you do hear it among many of the young people.. The young folks do that because they are misinformed and don't know any better. They equate "educated" with being "white", which is a false assumption to say the least. Skin color does not determine one's intelligence, and that is what they need to understand. It's unfortunate they would equate "intelligence" with skin color, as though it is a "requirement" for higher learning.


I'm no longer a 'young person' but I've seen this attitude all my life. It still exists among people of my age group.
Where do young people get it from? From older people who inculcate them with that garbage.
It becomes a convenient crutch to avoid working toward achieving anything.
I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #11 posted 09/10/09 6:26am

jjhunsecker

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SUPRMAN said:

2elijah said:

.

I see your point and agree that not all do it, but you do hear it among many of the young people.. The young folks do that because they are misinformed and don't know any better. They equate "educated" with being "white", which is a false assumption to say the least. Skin color does not determine one's intelligence, and that is what they need to understand. It's unfortunate they would equate "intelligence" with skin color, as though it is a "requirement" for higher learning.


I'm no longer a 'young person' but I've seen this attitude all my life. It still exists among people of my age group.
Where do young people get it from? From older people who inculcate them with that garbage.
It becomes a convenient crutch to avoid working toward achieving anything.


I honestly believe that this attitude among American Blacks (those not of Caribbean descent or recent African immigrants) is holding them back, as much as, if not more than, outside racism. There was an article in the NY Times a few years ago about blacks at elite colleges. When they broke it down, the majority of the black students were either of a Caribbean background, or were African natives, or the children of interracial couples. At one elite Ivy League school, the native-born Blacks banded themselves together , and called themselves the "Descendents", as they descended from Southern slaves. Some of them seemed to have some sort of resentment towards their fellow black classmates, though one black administrator said "We should find out whatever it is that the Caribbean and African kids have, and bottle it to give to the American black kids".

As a (somewhat) funny example of what I mean about attitude, I used to work with a black guy, who for lack of a better term, had a "ghetto mentality". His view of the world was everything had to be "black" for him to do it. Eat sushi? "Black people don't do that". Read the NY Times ? "Black people don't read that". Listen to Blues or Jazz or even Rock or Classical ? "Black people never listen to that stuff". I told him if I followed his view, I'd never leave the corner
[Edited 9/10/09 6:28am]
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Reply #12 posted 09/10/09 6:37am

byronic

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jjhunsecker said:

SUPRMAN said:



I'm no longer a 'young person' but I've seen this attitude all my life. It still exists among people of my age group.
Where do young people get it from? From older people who inculcate them with that garbage.
It becomes a convenient crutch to avoid working toward achieving anything.


I honestly believe that this attitude among American Blacks (those not of Caribbean descent or recent African immigrants) is holding them back, as much as, if not more than, outside racism. There was an article in the NY Times a few years ago about blacks at elite colleges. When they broke it down, the majority of the black students were either of a Caribbean background, or were African natives, or the children of interracial couples. At one elite Ivy League school, the native-born Blacks banded themselves together , and called themselves the "Descendents", as they descended from Southern slaves. Some of them seemed to have some sort of resentment towards their fellow black classmates, though one black administrator said "We should find out whatever it is that the Caribbean and African kids have, and bottle it to give to the American black kids".

As a (somewhat) funny example of what I mean about attitude, I used to work with a black guy, who for lack of a better term, had a "ghetto mentality". His view of the world was everything had to be "black" for him to do it. Eat sushi? "Black people don't do that". Read the NY Times ? "Black people don't read that". Listen to Blues or Jazz or even Rock or Classical ? "Black people never listen to that stuff". I told him if I followed his view, I'd never leave the corner
[Edited 9/10/09 6:28am]


Black people invented Blues and Jazz, and to a large degree Rock!
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Reply #13 posted 09/10/09 7:34am

jjhunsecker

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byronic said:

jjhunsecker said:



I honestly believe that this attitude among American Blacks (those not of Caribbean descent or recent African immigrants) is holding them back, as much as, if not more than, outside racism. There was an article in the NY Times a few years ago about blacks at elite colleges. When they broke it down, the majority of the black students were either of a Caribbean background, or were African natives, or the children of interracial couples. At one elite Ivy League school, the native-born Blacks banded themselves together , and called themselves the "Descendents", as they descended from Southern slaves. Some of them seemed to have some sort of resentment towards their fellow black classmates, though one black administrator said "We should find out whatever it is that the Caribbean and African kids have, and bottle it to give to the American black kids".

As a (somewhat) funny example of what I mean about attitude, I used to work with a black guy, who for lack of a better term, had a "ghetto mentality". His view of the world was everything had to be "black" for him to do it. Eat sushi? "Black people don't do that". Read the NY Times ? "Black people don't read that". Listen to Blues or Jazz or even Rock or Classical ? "Black people never listen to that stuff". I told him if I followed his view, I'd never leave the corner
[Edited 9/10/09 6:28am]


Black people invented Blues and Jazz, and to a large degree Rock!


That's the funny part. One time Iwas listening to Muddy Waters, and he told me that "real" black people listen to Joe Budden instead
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Reply #14 posted 09/10/09 7:37am

ConsciousConta
ct

Victimhood. So that they can complain and not take responsibility for their own lives, which is obviously not an African American trait, it s a human trait.
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Reply #15 posted 09/10/09 7:40am

2elijah

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

SUPRMAN said:



I'm no longer a 'young person' but I've seen this attitude all my life. It still exists among people of my age group.
Where do young people get it from? From older people who inculcate them with that garbage.
It becomes a convenient crutch to avoid working toward achieving anything.


I honestly believe that this attitude among American Blacks (those not of Caribbean descent or recent African immigrants) is holding them back, as much as, if not more than, outside racism. There was an article in the NY Times a few years ago about blacks at elite colleges. When they broke it down, the majority of the black students were either of a Caribbean background, or were African natives, or the children of interracial couples. At one elite Ivy League school, the native-born Blacks banded themselves together , and called themselves the "Descendents", as they descended from Southern slaves. Some of them seemed to have some sort of resentment towards their fellow black classmates, though one black administrator said "We should find out whatever it is that the Caribbean and African kids have, and bottle it to give to the American black kids".

As a (somewhat) funny example of what I mean about attitude, I used to work with a black guy, who for lack of a better term, had a "ghetto mentality". His view of the world was everything had to be "black" for him to do it. Eat sushi? "Black people don't do that". Read the NY Times ? "Black people don't read that". Listen to Blues or Jazz or even Rock or Classical ? "Black people never listen to that stuff". I told him if I followed his view, I'd never leave the corner
[Edited 9/10/09 6:28am]



OMG...stop the madness please. lol (j/k)

But seriously, let me interject here. This is my opinion about the disparities between American Blacks and Caribbean Blacks, because although you and I share part of the Caribbean culture, there are some things in your post I don't agree with, but at the same time, I still respect your opinion.

First of all, let's remember that Blacks are not monolithic, whether from the Caribbean or born in America, and all come from various, economic and social backgrounds. So if you hear a Black person make a comment about specific things Blacks may not do, then that individual is only referring to their own, personal experiences and environment they've been exposed to. All Blacks don't experience the same social environments or lifestyles period. Blacks are all individuals, despite any similarities/non-similiarities among our various cultures, lifestyles, economic or social situations and history.

Secondly, if Blacks used racism as a crutch then who made all the achievements many of them have successfully made? Usually a crutch wouldn't allow you to pass the "Go" sign. If anything, despite all the racist laws created against them in the past, many still managed to overcome those obstacles without limiting themselves, just because of those laws. That takes strength and tenacity to have to live through something like that on a daily basis and still keep a strong frame. Racism will exist for a long time, If racism was used as a crutch, then Black Americans may not have made the many achievements and progress they have made over the years.

Many Africans from Africa, and Blacks from the Caribbean, seem to fail to see the many achievements Black Americans have made in this country, despite the obstacles they faced during laws that prohibited them from exercising specific, civil rights. Now that's a strong people if you could survive years of mistreatment and limited rights. Black Americans did not allow any of that to stop their survival or steal their strength or spirit, and that is why they are and will always be a "surviving" people.

It was the Black Americans on a major scale, who were the ones that fought on the front lines for equal rights, so that immigrant Blacks from the Caribbean, and other minorities could have the same, equal rights and opportunities afforded to others in America and prosper here
. That is what many Caribbean Blacks and Africans, are "ignorant" about, because those that come here, would not have been able to prosper, had the American Blacks not stood on the front lines for them and other mimorities. Although, many people from various race groups stood on those front lines with them as well. I think people forget that the civil rights fight was not just about race, but economics as well.

Often times, many immigrant Blacks don't seem to understand the history of Blacks in America, and often use stereotypical assumptions, from other sources as their form of education about them. Many Black Americans are often looked upon in a negative way, by other minorities, not just some whites. Also, they are still fighting the negative images portrayed of them in the media. I find, that many Black Caribbeans, Africans directly from Africa, who were not living in America at the time of the pre-civil rights era, don't take the time to understand the history or culture of the Black Americans and what they had to fight for to gain their rights and the rights of others. We are talking two different cultures. Secondly, many Caribbeans don't have many opportunities on the islands they are born on, and when they come here, of course they appreciate it more than blacks and whites that were born here, and are more inclined to appreciate the spoils this country has to offer and possibly do better than many American-born citizens.
[Edited 9/10/09 8:15am]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #16 posted 09/10/09 7:40am

peacenlovealwa
ys

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I have people like that in my family...and I'm sick about them talking about other races.
unlucky7 reincarnated
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Reply #17 posted 09/10/09 7:46am

2elijah

avatar

JJhunsecker,

Whenever you come from another country or from a Caribbean island that has limited access to opportunities, and you immigrate to one that does, of course you will appreciate it more, and take advantage of it, so it is no surprise, that many immigrants from other countries, come here and may do better than others who are born here, not just do better than "some",American Blacks. Secondly, you have to remember, the differences of the cultures, how one was raised, their economic situation and environment.

Many black immigrants came here after the civil rights fight was won, to take advantage of the opportunities and privileges, American Blacks fought for. But in my opinion, and experience, I have noticed that many, newly arrived, Caribbean Blacks who come here to live in America, don't seem to respect, aor ppreciate or even acknowledge, all American Blacks fought for, as being the reason why Caribbeans can come here and are able to enjoy and take advantage of the spoils of the American dream.

It really is not until Caribbean Blacks have lived here for a while, that they finally learn and pretty much understand why many Black Americans feel a certain way about their treatment in this country, and of course, there are individual experiences of racism, but then there's that racism, where many in both groups, on a large scale, have experienced similar, racial situations as a whole. Example: Many Black Men, regardless if they are from Africa, America or the Caribbean, have experienced "racial profiling". It is an experience many of them share on a large scale in this country.

So although there are cultural differences between Blacks born in America and the Caribbean, they still share similar histories, and share the same ancestors, but come from various economic and social situations and lifestyles, and it all depends on how you were raised as well.
[Edited 9/10/09 7:52am]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #18 posted 09/10/09 7:56am

2elijah

avatar

ConsciousContact said:

Victimhood. So that they can complain and not take responsibility for their own lives, which is obviously not an African American trait, it s a human trait.



Thank you for saying that. clapping It pisses me off when people equate "victimhood" to Black Americans, when that is total and false BS, as though "victimhood" has some race or skin color requirement. lol

My goodness, if my African and African-American ancestors had played "victimhood", none of them would have survived.
[Edited 9/10/09 8:15am]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #19 posted 09/10/09 8:49am

Purple123

avatar

2elijah said:

lol What do you mean complain about what white people have done to us? lol I only point fingers at those who actually committed racist crimes of the past, during slavery/jim crow days, based on dcoumented facts of those who committed racist acts against us or others today. Keep in mind, when slavery is discussed, it does not mean its purpose is to "blame all white people or impose guilt on them", as not all white people in the past, participated in specific, racist actions such as slavery, although many of us have pointed out, that many whites knowingly, and many obliviously enjoyed the everyday privileges and spoils of specific freedoms and privileges, denied to many Blacks, due to racist laws created by former powers-that-be, that caused that divide, and made life much harder at that time and during post-slavery, for many Black Americans in this country, causing tension and mistrust between Blacks and whites, in which much of that tension and mistrust, have pretty much spilled into present day America, between Blacks and Whites or there would be no discussion on race issues whatsoever. So Purple123, although I sort of understand and respect your question, I just think you generalized your statement a bit much.

It's also no surprise that people from all races and ethnic groups, do bad things to one another, it is not just limited to Blacks, and to say that, would also be generalizing, and can give the wrong assumptions of all Blacks, and we have enough stereotypical and false information tagged on us already. But I do agree that a lot of the past, has a lot to do with the disrespect, mentality and attitudes, and sometimes anger, that come out of the Black community. In my opinion, these days it seems I am seeing more lack of respect towards family values these days, just based on some of the behaviors I've seen in public, displayed by many of our youth in the past 10 years. I wouldn't put all the blame on the parents, but society as a whole, as well as other sources, like the various medias, that exposes certain situations to our youth and society as a whole, and most of what is exposed, comes from adults. I see similar, disrespectful behaviors coming from youth from other race groups as well.

I do understand though, that if you mean those within our community that commit crimes against our own, like those who join gangs, that sell drugs to our children/adults;murder our own; commit domestic abuse;youth and adults disrespecting one another, etc., but those are social situations that happens within every race or ethnic group, and has no specific requirements or limitations as to any of it being committed by one specific group.

In my opinion though, unlike other groups, this society, especially the media, tends to shed a very negative light on our community as though, only social and economic problems exists just in ours. But, unfortunately, on the other hand, it seems crime in the black community is on a larger scale than those in most. communities. With many of our youth killing one another at a higher rate, over silly BS, more than other youth in various communities, which is a crying shame. Much of that, I believe, is due to economic and social situations going on in many of these youths' homes, lives and communities, where they may not have a strong, parental figure(s) around to move them in the right direction or their families may be lacking some basic, financial and educational resources needed, in order to help them move upward, economically and educationally.

As a whole, there's still a lot of work to do within our communities, economically, socially and politically, as well as repairing many years of psychological.damage from the past, that at times, reflects itself on the mentality and attitudes of those within our communities, unfortunately.
[Edited 9/9/09 20:04pm]


Great post and answer, however, I never meant all white people. I'm married to a white woman who's a minonite, they (on document) were the first white abolitionist in America, I know that shitting on ones race is apperent in all races, but what distinquishes blacks from everyone else is what's was and is done to us and that effect. It is about taking blaime for you own actions and crime in our communities are worst than in other races communities and when I say I hear African Americans complain about what white people do, I never mean ALL white people. I've had really bad negative arguments with our people trying to defend the GOOD white people that not only in America, but in the world, in fact, I've totally disasociated my self from alot of our people who complain about what white people are doing today.

Jews in America stick together.
Arabs in America stick together. I grew up in Detroit, Mi, right next to Dearborn, Mi, where there is the highest concentration of Arabs and middle eastern people in America
Indians from India stick together.
Asians stick together

This is stuff that I've witnessed all my life and I've grew up with all races and I'll tell you, our people don't stick together unless we're provoked, (Rodney King and L.A riots, hurricane Katrina) are just two of them. We're not as pro-active in America as other people, we have somewhat (still) of an inferiority complex, it's also misguided anger that I speak, ya know the what I'm taking about, as a paralel (the man who's boss disrespects him badly and since the man can't relatiate on his boss he goes home and takes it out on his wife. Everything that I speak of happens to some degree or another in all races, however, from experience, I can tell you that (not all, never all) no one or races has more hostility toward white people than blacks, now you can say that I'm generalizing, but I'm not, it's the truth. Our situation is much much much different than other races, then and now.

I agree with much of what you've said, it just pisses me off when I see our people complain about then turn around and do something else bad to one of our own. While my concerns are for peace in America, and in the world, other races don't concern me as much as my own race, (I hope that doesn't sound selfish because I don't mean it to) Even though we have a African American president, it's still harder for African Americans than other races and I juist want it to stop, because it makes us looks like hypocrites when we can't afford to look like that. I could go on and on about this issue and so could you, I love your comment and would love to continue this dialog, but I will stop for now.
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Reply #20 posted 09/10/09 9:39am

jjhunsecker

avatar

2elijah said:

JJhunsecker,

Whenever you come from another country or from a Caribbean island that has limited access to opportunities, and you immigrate to one that does, of course you will appreciate it more, and take advantage of it, so it is no surprise, that many immigrants from other countries, come here and may do better than others who are born here, not just do better than "some",American Blacks. Secondly, you have to remember, the differences of the cultures, how one was raised, their economic situation and environment.

Many black immigrants came here after the civil rights fight was won, to take advantage of the opportunities and privileges, American Blacks fought for. But in my opinion, and experience, I have noticed that many, newly arrived, Caribbean Blacks who come here to live in America, don't seem to respect, aor ppreciate or even acknowledge, all American Blacks fought for, as being the reason why Caribbeans can come here and are able to enjoy and take advantage of the spoils of the American dream.

It really is not until Caribbean Blacks have lived here for a while, that they finally learn and pretty much understand why many Black Americans feel a certain way about their treatment in this country, and of course, there are individual experiences of racism, but then there's that racism, where many in both groups, on a large scale, have experienced similar, racial situations as a whole. Example: Many Black Men, regardless if they are from Africa, America or the Caribbean, have experienced "racial profiling". It is an experience many of them share on a large scale in this country.

So although there are cultural differences between Blacks born in America and the Caribbean, they still share similar histories, and share the same ancestors, but come from various economic and social situations and lifestyles, and it all depends on how you were raised as well.
[Edited 9/10/09 7:52am]


There's nothing you say here that I disagree with. The valiant fight that Black Americans waged must be respected and appreciated.

But because issues are complex, and there are no simple answers, there are still questions that need to be asked. One is that yes, we must acknowledge the history, but is there a point where knowing this history becomes a burden, or in some cases a "crutch" ? If people constantly look at the horrible past, can they see a better future, and make an effort to push themselves ? Or is it easier in some ways to say "THEY won't let US get ahead" ? One thing I've heard from many of the people I knew of a Caribbean background is why won't more American blacks push themselves, and get themselves educated, and motivated. Of course, we know many do, but we have to acknowledge that there are many that don't. Whether you want to call them the "underclass", or "ghetto", or whatever. You are absolutely right that many Africans and Caribbean people take advantage of the doors opened by the civil rights struggles, but then you have to ask : if the door is now open, at least partially, why are more Black Americans not taking advantage of it ?
This may sound to some like "blaming the victim", but what part do attitude and motivation play in getting ahead ? Is it possible that the values repected in Caribbean and African cultures allow for greater success in this country ? I don't know the answer, I'm just raising the question...

To paraphrase something Jesse Jackson once said: "Somebody may have put you in a garbage can. It's YOUR responsibility to get yourself out of it".
[Edited 9/10/09 9:43am]
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Reply #21 posted 09/10/09 10:29am

2elijah

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

2elijah said:

JJhunsecker,

Whenever you come from another country or from a Caribbean island that has limited access to opportunities, and you immigrate to one that does, of course you will appreciate it more, and take advantage of it, so it is no surprise, that many immigrants from other countries, come here and may do better than others who are born here, not just do better than "some",American Blacks. Secondly, you have to remember, the differences of the cultures, how one was raised, their economic situation and environment.

Many black immigrants came here after the civil rights fight was won, to take advantage of the opportunities and privileges, American Blacks fought for. But in my opinion, and experience, I have noticed that many, newly arrived, Caribbean Blacks who come here to live in America, don't seem to respect, aor ppreciate or even acknowledge, all American Blacks fought for, as being the reason why Caribbeans can come here and are able to enjoy and take advantage of the spoils of the American dream.

It really is not until Caribbean Blacks have lived here for a while, that they finally learn and pretty much understand why many Black Americans feel a certain way about their treatment in this country, and of course, there are individual experiences of racism, but then there's that racism, where many in both groups, on a large scale, have experienced similar, racial situations as a whole. Example: Many Black Men, regardless if they are from Africa, America or the Caribbean, have experienced "racial profiling". It is an experience many of them share on a large scale in this country.

So although there are cultural differences between Blacks born in America and the Caribbean, they still share similar histories, and share the same ancestors, but come from various economic and social situations and lifestyles, and it all depends on how you were raised as well.
[Edited 9/10/09 7:52am]


There's nothing you say here that I disagree with. The valiant fight that Black Americans waged must be respected and appreciated.

But because issues are complex, and there are no simple answers, there are still questions that need to be asked. One is that yes, we must acknowledge the history, but is there a point where knowing this history becomes a burden, or in some cases a "crutch" ? If people constantly look at the horrible past, can they see a better future, and make an effort to push themselves ? Or is it easier in some ways to say "THEY won't let US get ahead" ? One thing I've heard from many of the people I knew of a Caribbean background is why won't more American blacks push themselves, and get themselves educated, and motivated. Of course, we know many do, but we have to acknowledge that there are many that don't. Whether you want to call them the "underclass", or "ghetto", or whatever. You are absolutely right that many Africans and Caribbean people take advantage of the doors opened by the civil rights struggles, but then you have to ask : if the door is now open, at least partially, why are more Black Americans not taking advantage of it ?
This may sound to some like "blaming the victim", but what part do attitude and motivation play in getting ahead ? Is it possible that the values repected in Caribbean and African cultures allow for greater success in this country ? I don't know the answer, I'm just raising the question...

To paraphrase something Jesse Jackson once said: "Somebody may have put you in a garbage can. It's YOUR responsibility to get yourself out of it".
[Edited 9/10/09 9:43am]



What "crutch?" If you are talking about Black Americans acknowledging thet many of them as well as Caribbean Americans are descendants of slaves, that's not a crutch. If you're talking about the institutional racism that lies within many American institutions, they are surely not lying, I lived here long enough to see some barriers broken because Black Americans spoke out where racism within an institution existed. If they hadn't, then they would have allowed those barriers to continue. All you need to do is stay awake and be aware where racism exists, doesn't mean that when you recognize it, it is being used as a crutch. I worked in the area of personnel, and have seen instances where some administrators willfully tried to bar some employees from promotions, simply becasue they were African-Americans.

I'd like to know what other group of individuals you know, that have overcame the laws created against them, yet were still able to prosper and make achievements, regardless of those laws. As far as those individuals who you state are defined as the "underclass", being underclass, requires no skin color or race, as the same could be said for non-blacks, like poor whites in rural areas, or hispanics in barrios, etc., as to why don't they push themselves to get out of their situation. Why should the interest about Black Americans from Caribbean Blacks, only be on why many poor blacks, can't seem to move ahead? For starters, whether you are black and poor or white and poor, it's obvious many don't have the resources to pull themselves out of their situations, and then again, some may not want to for their own "individual" reasons. I cannot say all poor people think on the same level, as many within that group, I'm sure would love to improve their economic and social situation, but lack the knowledge on how to obtain specific resources that would assist them in doing so.

Speaking of Caribbean Blacks, there are many that didn't or don't have a pot to piss in, some barely had indoor plumbing and many make their living in "service" jobs in the Caribbean. I still see many Caribbean Blacks taking "service" jobs in America or positions as "Nannies". I often find myself asking "Why?" So if anyone is limiting, I find that many Caribbean Blacks. instead of reaching higher, many will settle for any job, as long as they can eat. It's not their fault, it's the type of jobs many are used to having in the Caribbean. Even though the race situation is on a different scale in the Caribbean. Who do you think own most of the land all over the Caribbean? Who do you think are the ones who live way up in the mountainside, with acres of land, and who do you think are the ones you see with the yachts? Now, who do you think are the ones with the service jobs up there? Example, Hotel, Maintenance, Dishwashing, Cooks in the swanky restaurants, etc? On the other hand, you do have many Caribbean Blacks who own land, businesses and are Entrepreneurs, Dentists, Physicians, Nurses, Administrators, etc.,

I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood comprised of Blacks from the north and south. Only 2 Caribbean families lived on that block, and that was my family and a lady from Aruba, where she and her husband became best friends with my parents because they could relate culture-wise. Everyone owned their own homes, and there were plenty of professional Blacks (non-Caribbean) living in the county I was raised in. This BS about American Blacks not pushing themselves is total BS, and cockery. I live both cultures, so I can speak on my own experiences. The bottom line is, it all depends on the individual. Just because one Black American is not achieving their goals based on their own principles, does not mean all Blacks do the same. The lack of effort in achieving one's goal, is the fault of the individual. I refuse to have one, two or a few from one community, be the defining factor for all Black Americans. Just remember that the opportunity you are experiencing today, and the privileges you are enjoying in America, is due to the extreme, long sufferings of Black Americans who made it possible for your family and mine to enjoy it. I have no ill will against you, and have to say I am enjoying having this conversation with you as we both express our thoughts and experiences, whether we agree with one another or not. Continue on, I'm enjoying this. biggrin
[Edited 9/10/09 10:49am]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #22 posted 09/10/09 11:26am

jjhunsecker

avatar

2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:



There's nothing you say here that I disagree with. The valiant fight that Black Americans waged must be respected and appreciated.

But because issues are complex, and there are no simple answers, there are still questions that need to be asked. One is that yes, we must acknowledge the history, but is there a point where knowing this history becomes a burden, or in some cases a "crutch" ? If people constantly look at the horrible past, can they see a better future, and make an effort to push themselves ? Or is it easier in some ways to say "THEY won't let US get ahead" ? One thing I've heard from many of the people I knew of a Caribbean background is why won't more American blacks push themselves, and get themselves educated, and motivated. Of course, we know many do, but we have to acknowledge that there are many that don't. Whether you want to call them the "underclass", or "ghetto", or whatever. You are absolutely right that many Africans and Caribbean people take advantage of the doors opened by the civil rights struggles, but then you have to ask : if the door is now open, at least partially, why are more Black Americans not taking advantage of it ?
This may sound to some like "blaming the victim", but what part do attitude and motivation play in getting ahead ? Is it possible that the values repected in Caribbean and African cultures allow for greater success in this country ? I don't know the answer, I'm just raising the question...

To paraphrase something Jesse Jackson once said: "Somebody may have put you in a garbage can. It's YOUR responsibility to get yourself out of it".
[Edited 9/10/09 9:43am]



What "crutch?" If you are talking about Black Americans acknowledging thet many of them as well as Caribbean Americans are descendants of slaves, that's not a crutch. If you're talking about the institutional racism that lies within many American institutions, they are surely not lying, I lived here long enough to see some barriers broken because Black Americans spoke out where racism within an institution existed. If they hadn't, then they would have allowed those barriers to continue. All you need to do is stay awake and be aware where racism exists, doesn't mean that when you recognize it, it is being used as a crutch. I worked in the area of personnel, and have seen instances where some administrators willfully tried to bar some employees from promotions, simply becasue they were African-Americans.

I'd like to know what other group of individuals you know, that have overcame the laws created against them, yet were still able to prosper and make achievements, regardless of those laws. As far as those individuals who you state are defined as the "underclass", being underclass, requires no skin color or race, as the same could be said for non-blacks, like poor whites in rural areas, or hispanics in barrios, etc., as to why don't they push themselves to get out of their situation. Why should the interest about Black Americans from Caribbean Blacks, only be on why many poor blacks, can't seem to move ahead? For starters, whether you are black and poor or white and poor, it's obvious many don't have the resources to pull themselves out of their situations, and then again, some may not want to for their own "individual" reasons. I cannot say all poor people think on the same level, as many within that group, I'm sure would love to improve their economic and social situation, but lack the knowledge on how to obtain specific resources that would assist them in doing so.

Speaking of Caribbean Blacks, there are many that didn't or don't have a pot to piss in, some barely had indoor plumbing and many make their living in "service" jobs in the Caribbean. I still see many Caribbean Blacks taking "service" jobs in America or positions as "Nannies". I often find myself asking "Why?" So if anyone is limiting, I find that many Caribbean Blacks. instead of reaching higher, many will settle for any job, as long as they can eat. It's not their fault, it's the type of jobs many are used to having in the Caribbean. Even though the race situation is on a different scale in the Caribbean. Who do you think own most of the land all over the Caribbean? Who do you think are the ones who live way up in the mountainside, with acres of land, and who do you think are the ones you see with the yachts? Now, who do you think are the ones with the service jobs up there? Example, Hotel, Maintenance, Dishwashing, Cooks in the swanky restaurants, etc? On the other hand, you do have many Caribbean Blacks who own land, businesses and are Entrepreneurs, Dentists, Physicians, Nurses, Administrators, etc.,

I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood comprised of Blacks from the north and south. Only 2 Caribbean families lived on that block, and that was my family and a lady from Aruba, where she and her husband became best friends with my parents because they could relate culture-wise. Everyone owned their own homes, and there were plenty of professional Blacks (non-Caribbean) living in the county I was raised in. This BS about American Blacks not pushing themselves is total BS, and cockery. I live both cultures, so I can speak on my own experiences. The bottom line is, it all depends on the individual. Just because one Black American is not achieving their goals based on their own principles, does not mean all Blacks do the same. The lack of effort in achieving one's goal, is the fault of the individual. I refuse to have one, two or a few from one community, be the defining factor for all Black Americans. Just remember that the opportunity you are experiencing today, and the privileges you are enjoying in America, is due to the extreme, long sufferings of Black Americans who made it possible for your family and mine to enjoy it. I have no ill will against you, and have to say I am enjoying having this conversation with you as we both express our thoughts and experiences, whether we agree with one another or not. Continue on, I'm enjoying this. biggrin
[Edited 9/10/09 10:49am]


A lot of what you say, I actually agree with. No one is saying racism is dead. It certainly does exist, and probably will continue to exist. What I am saying is that I have run across many black people who have an attitude of "Why bother ?", or even worse, turn to self-destructive behavior. What I'm talking about is not seeing the racism in front of you as a "crutch", but expected or anticiated racism. The question is, once we know these things, and understand the reasons, then what ? Do you just continue down the same path, or do you strive to better yourself ?

You menion that many people you've come across of a Caribbean background work in service jobs, often low-paying ones. Yet the important thing is that they want to WORK, and will take any job they can get. There was no welfare in these countries, as we know it in the US. And many of them will push education on their children. As I said before, there is no "stigma" to being erudite among Caribbean people. There are AmericanBlacks who see anyone talking or acting a certain way as trying to "act White". Michelle Obama spoke about that in her childhood, when she strived to get good grades. But, sad to say, I've come across many (not all of course) black Americans, who are almost proud to be ignorant, and proud of self-destructive and community destructive behavior they engage in.
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Reply #23 posted 09/10/09 12:54pm

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

2elijah said:




What "crutch?" If you are talking about Black Americans acknowledging thet many of them as well as Caribbean Americans are descendants of slaves, that's not a crutch. If you're talking about the institutional racism that lies within many American institutions, they are surely not lying, I lived here long enough to see some barriers broken because Black Americans spoke out where racism within an institution existed. If they hadn't, then they would have allowed those barriers to continue. All you need to do is stay awake and be aware where racism exists, doesn't mean that when you recognize it, it is being used as a crutch. I worked in the area of personnel, and have seen instances where some administrators willfully tried to bar some employees from promotions, simply becasue they were African-Americans.

I'd like to know what other group of individuals you know, that have overcame the laws created against them, yet were still able to prosper and make achievements, regardless of those laws. As far as those individuals who you state are defined as the "underclass", being underclass, requires no skin color or race, as the same could be said for non-blacks, like poor whites in rural areas, or hispanics in barrios, etc., as to why don't they push themselves to get out of their situation. Why should the interest about Black Americans from Caribbean Blacks, only be on why many poor blacks, can't seem to move ahead? For starters, whether you are black and poor or white and poor, it's obvious many don't have the resources to pull themselves out of their situations, and then again, some may not want to for their own "individual" reasons. I cannot say all poor people think on the same level, as many within that group, I'm sure would love to improve their economic and social situation, but lack the knowledge on how to obtain specific resources that would assist them in doing so.

Speaking of Caribbean Blacks, there are many that didn't or don't have a pot to piss in, some barely had indoor plumbing and many make their living in "service" jobs in the Caribbean. I still see many Caribbean Blacks taking "service" jobs in America or positions as "Nannies". I often find myself asking "Why?" So if anyone is limiting, I find that many Caribbean Blacks. instead of reaching higher, many will settle for any job, as long as they can eat. It's not their fault, it's the type of jobs many are used to having in the Caribbean. Even though the race situation is on a different scale in the Caribbean. Who do you think own most of the land all over the Caribbean? Who do you think are the ones who live way up in the mountainside, with acres of land, and who do you think are the ones you see with the yachts? Now, who do you think are the ones with the service jobs up there? Example, Hotel, Maintenance, Dishwashing, Cooks in the swanky restaurants, etc? On the other hand, you do have many Caribbean Blacks who own land, businesses and are Entrepreneurs, Dentists, Physicians, Nurses, Administrators, etc.,

I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood comprised of Blacks from the north and south. Only 2 Caribbean families lived on that block, and that was my family and a lady from Aruba, where she and her husband became best friends with my parents because they could relate culture-wise. Everyone owned their own homes, and there were plenty of professional Blacks (non-Caribbean) living in the county I was raised in. This BS about American Blacks not pushing themselves is total BS, and cockery. I live both cultures, so I can speak on my own experiences. The bottom line is, it all depends on the individual. Just because one Black American is not achieving their goals based on their own principles, does not mean all Blacks do the same. The lack of effort in achieving one's goal, is the fault of the individual. I refuse to have one, two or a few from one community, be the defining factor for all Black Americans. Just remember that the opportunity you are experiencing today, and the privileges you are enjoying in America, is due to the extreme, long sufferings of Black Americans who made it possible for your family and mine to enjoy it. I have no ill will against you, and have to say I am enjoying having this conversation with you as we both express our thoughts and experiences, whether we agree with one another or not. Continue on, I'm enjoying this. biggrin
[Edited 9/10/09 10:49am]


A lot of what you say, I actually agree with. No one is saying racism is dead. It certainly does exist, and probably will continue to exist. What I am saying is that I have run across many black people who have an attitude of "Why bother ?", or even worse, turn to self-destructive behavior. What I'm talking about is not seeing the racism in front of you as a "crutch", but expected or anticiated racism. The question is, once we know these things, and understand the reasons, then what ? Do you just continue down the same path, or do you strive to better yourself ?

You menion that many people you've come across of a Caribbean background work in service jobs, often low-paying ones. Yet the important thing is that they want to WORK, and will take any job they can get. There was no welfare in these countries, as we know it in the US. And many of them will push education on their children. As I said before, there is no "stigma" to being erudite among Caribbean people. There are AmericanBlacks who see anyone talking or acting a certain way as trying to "act White". Michelle Obama spoke about that in her childhood, when she strived to get good grades. But, sad to say, I've come across many (not all of course) black Americans, who are almost proud to be ignorant, and proud of self-destructive and community destructive behavior they engage in.


You ask then what, once racism is acknowledged? It's existence has always been acknowledged, but like I stated before, despite some of the barriers in the past, Black Americans were still able to "move ahead" Their history speaks for itself. The majority of them do not make it a "crutch" in their lives, as you wish to believe. Hearing statements about "acting white" or "talking white" I have heard from both American Blacks and those of the Caribbean, so this is not a phrase that you just hear from some American Blacks, and just because you hear that from a portion of those within the Black community, that does not define nor does it characterize everyone in the Black community of having that attitude. That statement has been stated in many non-white groups, like Hispanic, Asian, it is not limited to hearing that among Black Americans.


I find that many Caribbean Blacks are so brainwashed about American Blacks, that they waste no time believing the negative BS they hear from outside sources instead of researching the facts or accepting them as individuals with their own economic, social and educational backgrounds. Many from the Caribbean tend to hold an "airness" about them as though they are better than Black Americans. Now some Black Americans do the same towards Caribbean Blacks, but I find that attitude moreso coming from Caribbean Blacks.

Secondly, when many Caribbean Blacks come here, I find that many of them hold some jealousy towards Black Americans, because of the fact that Black Americans, were born in the states and the opportunities in America are much more than what the Caribbean has to offer its citizens, and so it is no surprise that you may have the impression you have about American Blacks, but I just don’t believe that you should believe that many of them have no “work ethic”, based on a few that fell by the wayside.

On the other hand, yes , many Black Americans also show a lot of disrespect towards Caribbean Blacks because they lack the knowledge and understanding of the various cultures within the Caribbean culture. Often times many Black American group all Caribbeans together believing they are all the same, not realizing they come from various ethnic groups and islands. Often times, most Caribbean Blacks are referred to as “Jamaicans”, by American Blacks, as though all Caribbean people come from Jamaica. This I always find laughable, and they think they all practice their cultures the same, and have the same morals and values, when in fact they don’t. So there is a lot of “cultural misunderstandings” between both groups.

Don’t get me wrong, I embrace my Caribbean and Black American cultures, but I'm not going to hesitate to be straight up about the truth, when it comes to what goes on in either communities. I believe many Caribbean Blacks harbor ill feeling towards American Blacks, and vice versa, all due either of them not making enough effort, to learn about one another, but won’t hesitate to believe stereotypical nonsense, before learning the facts.
Well, I’ll have to stop here for now, as I am getting ready to leave for a family reunion and you can bet I’ll be dancing to some Caribbean music while I’m there. It’s been great conversing with you on this issue, JJ.

(Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors, as I was rushing to type my response and will clean it up later on).
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #24 posted 09/10/09 4:51pm

Purple123

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2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:



There's nothing you say here that I disagree with. The valiant fight that Black Americans waged must be respected and appreciated.

But because issues are complex, and there are no simple answers, there are still questions that need to be asked. One is that yes, we must acknowledge the history, but is there a point where knowing this history becomes a burden, or in some cases a "crutch" ? If people constantly look at the horrible past, can they see a better future, and make an effort to push themselves ? Or is it easier in some ways to say "THEY won't let US get ahead" ? One thing I've heard from many of the people I knew of a Caribbean background is why won't more American blacks push themselves, and get themselves educated, and motivated. Of course, we know many do, but we have to acknowledge that there are many that don't. Whether you want to call them the "underclass", or "ghetto", or whatever. You are absolutely right that many Africans and Caribbean people take advantage of the doors opened by the civil rights struggles, but then you have to ask : if the door is now open, at least partially, why are more Black Americans not taking advantage of it ?
This may sound to some like "blaming the victim", but what part do attitude and motivation play in getting ahead ? Is it possible that the values repected in Caribbean and African cultures allow for greater success in this country ? I don't know the answer, I'm just raising the question...

To paraphrase something Jesse Jackson once said: "Somebody may have put you in a garbage can. It's YOUR responsibility to get yourself out of it".
[Edited 9/10/09 9:43am]



What "crutch?" If you are talking about Black Americans acknowledging thet many of them as well as Caribbean Americans are descendants of slaves, that's not a crutch. If you're talking about the institutional racism that lies within many American institutions, they are surely not lying, I lived here long enough to see some barriers broken because Black Americans spoke out where racism within an institution existed. If they hadn't, then they would have allowed those barriers to continue. All you need to do is stay awake and be aware where racism exists, doesn't mean that when you recognize it, it is being used as a crutch. I worked in the area of personnel, and have seen instances where some administrators willfully tried to bar some employees from promotions, simply becasue they were African-Americans.

I'd like to know what other group of individuals you know, that have overcame the laws created against them, yet were still able to prosper and make achievements, regardless of those laws. As far as those individuals who you state are defined as the "underclass", being underclass, requires no skin color or race, as the same could be said for non-blacks, like poor whites in rural areas, or hispanics in barrios, etc., as to why don't they push themselves to get out of their situation. Why should the interest about Black Americans from Caribbean Blacks, only be on why many poor blacks, can't seem to move ahead? For starters, whether you are black and poor or white and poor, it's obvious many don't have the resources to pull themselves out of their situations, and then again, some may not want to for their own "individual" reasons. I cannot say all poor people think on the same level, as many within that group, I'm sure would love to improve their economic and social situation, but lack the knowledge on how to obtain specific resources that would assist them in doing so.

Speaking of Caribbean Blacks, there are many that didn't or don't have a pot to piss in, some barely had indoor plumbing and many make their living in "service" jobs in the Caribbean. I still see many Caribbean Blacks taking "service" jobs in America or positions as "Nannies". I often find myself asking "Why?" So if anyone is limiting, I find that many Caribbean Blacks. instead of reaching higher, many will settle for any job, as long as they can eat. It's not their fault, it's the type of jobs many are used to having in the Caribbean. Even though the race situation is on a different scale in the Caribbean. Who do you think own most of the land all over the Caribbean? Who do you think are the ones who live way up in the mountainside, with acres of land, and who do you think are the ones you see with the yachts? Now, who do you think are the ones with the service jobs up there? Example, Hotel, Maintenance, Dishwashing, Cooks in the swanky restaurants, etc? On the other hand, you do have many Caribbean Blacks who own land, businesses and are Entrepreneurs, Dentists, Physicians, Nurses, Administrators, etc.,

I grew up in a middle-class neighborhood comprised of Blacks from the north and south. Only 2 Caribbean families lived on that block, and that was my family and a lady from Aruba, where she and her husband became best friends with my parents because they could relate culture-wise. Everyone owned their own homes, and there were plenty of professional Blacks (non-Caribbean) living in the county I was raised in. This BS about American Blacks not pushing themselves is total BS, and cockery. I live both cultures, so I can speak on my own experiences. The bottom line is, it all depends on the individual. Just because one Black American is not achieving their goals based on their own principles, does not mean all Blacks do the same. The lack of effort in achieving one's goal, is the fault of the individual. I refuse to have one, two or a few from one community, be the defining factor for all Black Americans. Just remember that the opportunity you are experiencing today, and the privileges you are enjoying in America, is due to the extreme, long sufferings of Black Americans who made it possible for your family and mine to enjoy it. I have no ill will against you, and have to say I am enjoying having this conversation with you as we both express our thoughts and experiences, whether we agree with one another or not. Continue on, I'm enjoying this. biggrin
[Edited 9/10/09 10:49am]


Preech! We have to ask ours sevles, is the door really open for everyone in America in all positions with the same rate of pay and respect? The answer unfortunately is no. 90% of all lawyers are white, there are no African Americans in the movie business that have the power to greenlite a film. Most of the fortune 500 companies have white CEO's...I can go on for ever with these stats. There are times when blacks get high up the ladder in the corperate world, but feel like they're not respected, and only tolarated when they got there on knowledge, skill, perserverence and hardwork and a great education. So there's a huge amount of blacks who work hard everyday and do what their suppose to do, and STILL don't have it as good as whites. But that doesn't always equal up to respecting eachother or being respected by other blacks.

My point out of all of this is that blacks have a very very very unique situation that's different than other races and we don't push as hard as we can to respect each other. I've had black women disrespect me to my face and I let it go,, because I'm trying to further peace among us, i can't help it if those particular black woman can't help themselves, I just stay away from them, those that act like that.
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Reply #25 posted 09/11/09 9:03am

SUPRMAN

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ConsciousContact said:

Victimhood. So that they can complain and not take responsibility for their own lives, which is obviously not an African American trait, it s a human trait.

There it is . . .
I don't want you to think like me. I just want you to think.
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Reply #26 posted 09/11/09 11:21am

jjhunsecker

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2elijah said:

jjhunsecker said:



A lot of what you say, I actually agree with. No one is saying racism is dead. It certainly does exist, and probably will continue to exist. What I am saying is that I have run across many black people who have an attitude of "Why bother ?", or even worse, turn to self-destructive behavior. What I'm talking about is not seeing the racism in front of you as a "crutch", but expected or anticiated racism. The question is, once we know these things, and understand the reasons, then what ? Do you just continue down the same path, or do you strive to better yourself ?

You menion that many people you've come across of a Caribbean background work in service jobs, often low-paying ones. Yet the important thing is that they want to WORK, and will take any job they can get. There was no welfare in these countries, as we know it in the US. And many of them will push education on their children. As I said before, there is no "stigma" to being erudite among Caribbean people. There are AmericanBlacks who see anyone talking or acting a certain way as trying to "act White". Michelle Obama spoke about that in her childhood, when she strived to get good grades. But, sad to say, I've come across many (not all of course) black Americans, who are almost proud to be ignorant, and proud of self-destructive and community destructive behavior they engage in.


You ask then what, once racism is acknowledged? It's existence has always been acknowledged, but like I stated before, despite some of the barriers in the past, Black Americans were still able to "move ahead" Their history speaks for itself. The majority of them do not make it a "crutch" in their lives, as you wish to believe. Hearing statements about "acting white" or "talking white" I have heard from both American Blacks and those of the Caribbean, so this is not a phrase that you just hear from some American Blacks, and just because you hear that from a portion of those within the Black community, that does not define nor does it characterize everyone in the Black community of having that attitude. That statement has been stated in many non-white groups, like Hispanic, Asian, it is not limited to hearing that among Black Americans.


I find that many Caribbean Blacks are so brainwashed about American Blacks, that they waste no time believing the negative BS they hear from outside sources instead of researching the facts or accepting them as individuals with their own economic, social and educational backgrounds. Many from the Caribbean tend to hold an "airness" about them as though they are better than Black Americans. Now some Black Americans do the same towards Caribbean Blacks, but I find that attitude moreso coming from Caribbean Blacks.

Secondly, when many Caribbean Blacks come here, I find that many of them hold some jealousy towards Black Americans, because of the fact that Black Americans, were born in the states and the opportunities in America are much more than what the Caribbean has to offer its citizens, and so it is no surprise that you may have the impression you have about American Blacks, but I just don’t believe that you should believe that many of them have no “work ethic”, based on a few that fell by the wayside.

On the other hand, yes , many Black Americans also show a lot of disrespect towards Caribbean Blacks because they lack the knowledge and understanding of the various cultures within the Caribbean culture. Often times many Black American group all Caribbeans together believing they are all the same, not realizing they come from various ethnic groups and islands. Often times, most Caribbean Blacks are referred to as “Jamaicans”, by American Blacks, as though all Caribbean people come from Jamaica. This I always find laughable, and they think they all practice their cultures the same, and have the same morals and values, when in fact they don’t. So there is a lot of “cultural misunderstandings” between both groups.

Don’t get me wrong, I embrace my Caribbean and Black American cultures, but I'm not going to hesitate to be straight up about the truth, when it comes to what goes on in either communities. I believe many Caribbean Blacks harbor ill feeling towards American Blacks, and vice versa, all due either of them not making enough effort, to learn about one another, but won’t hesitate to believe stereotypical nonsense, before learning the facts.
Well, I’ll have to stop here for now, as I am getting ready to leave for a family reunion and you can bet I’ll be dancing to some Caribbean music while I’m there. It’s been great conversing with you on this issue, JJ.

(Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors, as I was rushing to type my response and will clean it up later on).


2elijah- I enjoy debating the issues, and it was a pleasure dealing with somebody rational and reasonable, even if we didn't always agree. Actually, I think we may have agreed on more things than we disagreed...

I've been around lots of different people in my life, and believe me, the American Black /West Indian Black conflict is certainly not the only intra-racial dudt-up out there. Among whites, there are conflicts between Jews and Italians. With Asian, the chinese don't like the japanese who don't like the Koreans. And forget Hispanics; Puerto ricans,Mexicans, Dominicans, Ecudoreans, Cubans are always at each others throats (In fact, here in the NY area, we've had a few bias crimes, where Mexicans were attacked by groups of youths that included other Latinos)
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Reply #27 posted 09/11/09 1:26pm

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

2elijah said:



You ask then what, once racism is acknowledged? It's existence has always been acknowledged, but like I stated before, despite some of the barriers in the past, Black Americans were still able to "move ahead" Their history speaks for itself. The majority of them do not make it a "crutch" in their lives, as you wish to believe. Hearing statements about "acting white" or "talking white" I have heard from both American Blacks and those of the Caribbean, so this is not a phrase that you just hear from some American Blacks, and just because you hear that from a portion of those within the Black community, that does not define nor does it characterize everyone in the Black community of having that attitude. That statement has been stated in many non-white groups, like Hispanic, Asian, it is not limited to hearing that among Black Americans.


I find that many Caribbean Blacks are so brainwashed about American Blacks, that they waste no time believing the negative BS they hear from outside sources instead of researching the facts or accepting them as individuals with their own economic, social and educational backgrounds. Many from the Caribbean tend to hold an "airness" about them as though they are better than Black Americans. Now some Black Americans do the same towards Caribbean Blacks, but I find that attitude moreso coming from Caribbean Blacks.

Secondly, when many Caribbean Blacks come here, I find that many of them hold some jealousy towards Black Americans, because of the fact that Black Americans, were born in the states and the opportunities in America are much more than what the Caribbean has to offer its citizens, and so it is no surprise that you may have the impression you have about American Blacks, but I just don’t believe that you should believe that many of them have no “work ethic”, based on a few that fell by the wayside.

On the other hand, yes , many Black Americans also show a lot of disrespect towards Caribbean Blacks because they lack the knowledge and understanding of the various cultures within the Caribbean culture. Often times many Black American group all Caribbeans together believing they are all the same, not realizing they come from various ethnic groups and islands. Often times, most Caribbean Blacks are referred to as “Jamaicans”, by American Blacks, as though all Caribbean people come from Jamaica. This I always find laughable, and they think they all practice their cultures the same, and have the same morals and values, when in fact they don’t. So there is a lot of “cultural misunderstandings” between both groups.

Don’t get me wrong, I embrace my Caribbean and Black American cultures, but I'm not going to hesitate to be straight up about the truth, when it comes to what goes on in either communities. I believe many Caribbean Blacks harbor ill feeling towards American Blacks, and vice versa, all due either of them not making enough effort, to learn about one another, but won’t hesitate to believe stereotypical nonsense, before learning the facts.
Well, I’ll have to stop here for now, as I am getting ready to leave for a family reunion and you can bet I’ll be dancing to some Caribbean music while I’m there. It’s been great conversing with you on this issue, JJ.

(Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors, as I was rushing to type my response and will clean it up later on).


2elijah- I enjoy debating the issues, and it was a pleasure dealing with somebody rational and reasonable, even if we didn't always agree. Actually, I think we may have agreed on more things than we disagreed...

I've been around lots of different people in my life, and believe me, the American Black /West Indian Black conflict is certainly not the only intra-racial dudt-up out there. Among whites, there are conflicts between Jews and Italians. With Asian, the chinese don't like the japanese who don't like the Koreans. And forget Hispanics; Puerto ricans,Mexicans, Dominicans, Ecudoreans, Cubans are always at each others throats (In fact, here in the NY area, we've had a few bias crimes, where Mexicans were attacked by groups of youths that included other Latinos)


Agree. I have to say I truly enjoyed conversing with you. Rarely do I get to exchange opinions on that particular topic. I also agree with you about the other cultural disparities between other ethnic groups, as I live in NYC as well. Once again, it's been a pleasure sharing my opinion with you and receiving yours as well, regarding this topic. It's not often one can converse on a topic here in this forum, and yet able to keep the respect flowing, whether there are agreements or disagreements on a particular matter up for discussion. Thanks again. Until next time... biggrin
[Edited 9/11/09 14:26pm]
Rest in Power Elijah Cummings. Thank you for your fight for human rights/justice. Your legacy will never die in vain.
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Reply #28 posted 09/12/09 3:56pm

JayJai

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I'm readin all this feelin a bit offended and abit defensive too, although most of it may be the truth.
I'll have to respond to this another time though...kinda busy now.
I swear the words "HATER" is wayyy over-rated...smh
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Reply #29 posted 09/12/09 5:38pm

Madison88

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If someone hurts me physically, emotionally or in any way shape or form and I can't rise above it...it will continue. It's time for everyone to try to lead by example to the best of their ability and I bet they mess up as well trying to. That's life. You can only control yourself not others...If you don't like things only you can change them, don't wait on someone else...it's giving all of your power away...be strong everyone....we need each other..
peace.... prince heart
Help others get ahead. You will always stand
taller with someone else on your shoulders.
--Bob Moawad
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