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Thread started 08/23/07 11:21am

SirPsycho

Do You think the Disciples did a Good job of Speaking for Jesus?

why? why not?
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Reply #1 posted 08/23/07 1:23pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

SirPsycho said:

why? why not?


Paul did not fully explain himself. Paul had some personal feelings that he was trying to run from, and he was a bit judgmental of others because of it. He said some things that were directed specifically toward certain groups of people, and it has been mistranslated to mean that he was speaking about everyone.

Sadly, many "Christians" are actually Hebrews and Paulites, rather than actual Christians.
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Reply #2 posted 08/23/07 1:24pm

SirPsycho

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

SirPsycho said:

why? why not?


Paul did not fully explain himself. Paul had some personal feelings that he was trying to run from, and he was a bit judgmental of others because of it. He said some things that were directed specifically toward certain groups of people, and it has been mistranslated to mean that he was speaking about everyone.

Sadly, many "Christians" are actually Hebrews and Paulites, rather than actual Christians.


Spong reader?
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Reply #3 posted 08/23/07 1:26pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

SirPsycho said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



Paul did not fully explain himself. Paul had some personal feelings that he was trying to run from, and he was a bit judgmental of others because of it. He said some things that were directed specifically toward certain groups of people, and it has been mistranslated to mean that he was speaking about everyone.

Sadly, many "Christians" are actually Hebrews and Paulites, rather than actual Christians.


Spong reader?


He has good stuff, but I study independently and write accordingly. wink
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Reply #4 posted 08/23/07 1:33pm

SirPsycho

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

SirPsycho said:



Spong reader?


He has good stuff, but I study independently and write accordingly. wink


i believe anyone who seeks shall find (so im not worried), but i do often wonder how well the dicsiples qouted jesus...considering how we've learned to literalize religious text
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Reply #5 posted 08/23/07 1:42pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

SirPsycho said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



He has good stuff, but I study independently and write accordingly. wink


i believe anyone who seeks shall find (so im not worried), but i do often wonder how well the dicsiples qouted jesus...considering how we've learned to literalize religious text


I think Paul did a great job with the message of Christ, but sometimes Paul shot from his "emotional hip", and there are many people out there that still consider that the "Word of God" when actually it was the word of Paul.
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Reply #6 posted 08/23/07 1:54pm

SirPsycho

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

SirPsycho said:



i believe anyone who seeks shall find (so im not worried), but i do often wonder how well the dicsiples qouted jesus...considering how we've learned to literalize religious text


I think Paul did a great job with the message of Christ, but sometimes Paul shot from his "emotional hip", and there are many people out there that still consider that the "Word of God" when actually it was the word of Paul.

do you feel this was only an issue with him?..what gospels did paul have by the time he began to write his letters?
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Reply #7 posted 08/23/07 2:04pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

SirPsycho said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



I think Paul did a great job with the message of Christ, but sometimes Paul shot from his "emotional hip", and there are many people out there that still consider that the "Word of God" when actually it was the word of Paul.

do you feel this was only an issue with him?..what gospels did paul have by the time he began to write his letters?


I believe Paul was a great teacher, and it was very noble of him to give up his past and accept Christ on the road. I think the Gospels were with Paul, it's just that he had that "thorn", and he let his personal emotions get the best of him.
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Reply #8 posted 08/26/07 3:28am

meow85

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If you mean Paul...then no. Paul ranted about the evils of faggotry, and said women should be made to shut up in church. Christ-like? Not unless there's a big missing chunk of the Bible wherein Jesus taught the subjugation of women and dismissal of non-straight people was God's way.
"A Watcher scoffs at gravity!"
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Reply #9 posted 08/26/07 8:31am

Mach

I would 1st have to actually have heard Jesus speak

2nd I would have had to actually heard his disciples speak as well

Before I would even invest time into thinking about that

written words are changed and manipulated by others

peace!
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Reply #10 posted 08/26/07 9:30am

lazycrockett

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Paul WASN'T a Disciple if you are speaking of the original 12.

I see Paul as the first administrator of the church who's job was to control and bring together the different fractions of the jesus believers.

Personally I don't believe that jesus every spoke to or through paul.
The Most Important Thing In Life Is Sincerity....Once You Can Fake That, You Can Fake Anything.
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Reply #11 posted 08/27/07 8:55am

SirPsycho

i appreciate this guys....but why the focus on paul? (a voice in my head say's why not, but i'd rather not assume) i was asking about the 12...
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Reply #12 posted 08/27/07 3:06pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

SirPsycho said:

i appreciate this guys....but why the focus on paul? (a voice in my head say's why not, but i'd rather not assume) i was asking about the 12...


I should have clarified.

From what is written, Paul is the only disciple that I have an issue with. The others are okay.
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Reply #13 posted 08/27/07 3:07pm

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

SirPsycho said:

i appreciate this guys....but why the focus on paul? (a voice in my head say's why not, but i'd rather not assume) i was asking about the 12...


I should have clarified.

From what is written, Paul is the only disciple that I have an issue with. The others are okay.


But as someone pointed out, he was the replacement for Judas and was not one of the originals.
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Reply #14 posted 08/27/07 8:25pm

meow85

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lazycrockett said:

Paul WASN'T a Disciple if you are speaking of the original 12.

I see Paul as the first administrator of the church who's job was to control and bring together the different fractions of the jesus believers.

Personally I don't believe that jesus every spoke to or through paul.

Guess it depends which interpretation of disciple you mean. I took it to refer to any of the early folks who claimed to be spreading Jesus' message. And since so many modern churches base their approach so heavily on Paul's writings, I think it's valid to include him.
[Edited 8/27/07 20:26pm]
"A Watcher scoffs at gravity!"
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Reply #15 posted 08/27/07 8:43pm

bluesbaby

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JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



I should have clarified.

From what is written, Paul is the only disciple that I have an issue with. The others are okay.


But as someone pointed out, he was the replacement for Judas and was not one of the originals.



Barnabas or someone replaced Judas. Not Paul.
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Reply #16 posted 08/27/07 9:18pm

SensualMelody

Yes I think they did a great job.
Why?

13 Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus;
14 and as they were looking at the man that had been cured standing with them, they had nothing to say in rebuttal.
15 So they commanded them to go outside the San′he·drin hall, and they began consulting with one another,
16 saying: “What shall we do with these men? Because, for a fact, a noteworthy sign has occurred through them, one manifest to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
17 Nevertheless, in order that it may not be spread abroad further among the people, let us tell them with threats not to speak anymore upon the basis of this name to any man at all.”

18 With that they called them and charged them, nowhere to make any utterance or to teach upon the basis of the name of Jesus.
19 But in reply Peter and John said to them: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to YOU rather than to God, judge for yourselves.
20 But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.”

40 At this they gave heed to him, and they summoned the apostles, flogged them, and ordered them to stop speaking upon the basis of Jesus’ name, and let them go.

41 These, therefore, went their way from before the San′he·drin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy to be dishonored in behalf of his name.
42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.

7 Consequently the word of God went on growing, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much; and a great crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.

So...how's everybody doing? smile
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Reply #17 posted 08/27/07 9:21pm

bluesbaby

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bluesbaby said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



But as someone pointed out, he was the replacement for Judas and was not one of the originals.



Barnabas or someone replaced Judas. Not Paul.

matthias, I think
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Reply #18 posted 08/28/07 12:19pm

myfavorite

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JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

SirPsycho said:


do you feel this was only an issue with him?..what gospels did paul have by the time he began to write his letters?


I believe Paul was a great teacher, and it was very noble of him to give up his past and accept Christ on the road. I think the Gospels were with Paul, it's just that he had that "thorn", and he let his personal emotions get the best of him.


Indeed he did....
THE B EST BE YOURSELF AS LONG AS YOUR SELF ISNT A DYCK[/r]

**....Someti
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Reply #19 posted 08/28/07 12:22pm

myfavorite

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lazycrockett said:

Paul WASN'T a Disciple if you are speaking of the original 12.

I see Paul as the first administrator of the church who's job was to control and bring together the different fractions of the jesus believers.

Personally I don't believe that jesus every spoke to or through paul.





That's a possibility, but we know that the bible, including the truths therein was inspired by the "living" spirit of God.

Paul I think was an effective teacher in that the people he approached, he did with compassion. It wasn't the fear and tormented vibe I tend to see fromt he old testament.
THE B EST BE YOURSELF AS LONG AS YOUR SELF ISNT A DYCK[/r]

**....Someti
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Reply #20 posted 08/28/07 5:13pm

Uhope

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From Dictionary.com:

dis·ci·ple
1. Religion.
a. one of the 12 personal followers of Christ.
b. one of the 70 followers sent forth by Christ. Luke 10:1.
c. any other professed follower of Christ in His lifetime.

2. any follower of Christ.
3. (initial capital letter) a member of the Disciples of Christ.
4. a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower: a disciple of Freud.


I am a disciple of Christ. smile

Paul most certainly qualifies under that second definition. Although he was not one of "The 12", he is referred to in the Scriptures as an "apostle to the nations" (Romans 11:13).

Galatians 1:1 refers to the fact that Paul was, indeed, chosen by Christ for this assignment. Acts 9:1-22 (written by Luke) describes Paul's conversion and the wary disbelief of it by Christians at the time -- even of the disciple Ananias, whom Jesus directed to go see about Paul. In fact, Paul’s apostleship was disputed by some in his day (just like today), making it necessary for him to declare frequently his appointment from the Lord. (1 Cor. 9:1, 2; Acts 1:22; 1 Cor. 15:8-10; 2 Cor. 12:12).

Acts 9:1-22:

1 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.

3 Now as he was traveling he approached Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He said: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 Nevertheless, rise and enter into the city, and what you must do will be told you.” 7 Now the men that were journeying with him were standing speechless, hearing, indeed, the sound of a voice, but not beholding any man. 8 But Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were opened he was seeing nothing. So they led him by the hand and conducted him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he did not see anything, and he neither ate nor drank.

10 There was in Damascus a certain disciple named An·a·ni´as, and the Lord said to him in a vision: “An·a·ni´as!” He said: “Here I am, Lord.” 11 The Lord said to him: “Rise, go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man named Saul, from Tarsus. For, look! he is praying, 12 and in a vision he has seen a man named An·a·ni´as come in and lay his hands upon him that he might recover sight.” 13 But An·a·ni´as answered: “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many injurious things he did to your holy ones in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to put in bonds all those calling upon your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him: “Be on your way, because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I shall show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”

17 So An·a·ni´as went off and entered into the house, and he laid his hands upon him and said: “Saul, brother, the Lord, the Jesus that appeared to you on the road over which you were coming, has sent me forth, in order that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes what looked like scales, and he recovered sight; and he rose and was baptized, 19 and he took food and gained strength.

He got to be for some days with the disciples in Damascus, 20 and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God. 21 But all those hearing him gave way to astonishment and would say: “Is this not the man that ravaged those in Jerusalem who call upon this name, and that had come here for this very purpose, that he might lead them bound to the chief priests?” 22 But Saul kept on acquiring power all the more and was confounding the Jews that dwelt in Damascus as he proved logically that this is the Christ.


From the above passage, it appears that Jesus did speak to Paul. Therefore, any issues or disputes about the validity of Paul's teachings would be the going against what is included in the Holy Bible.

I think it's crucial that whenever someone who claims to put faith in the Bible has a problem with something in it, that they recall this statement from Ezekiel 18:25:

25 “‘And you people will certainly say: “The way of Jehovah is not adjusted right.” Hear, please, O house of Israel. Is not my own way adjusted right? Are not the ways of you people not adjusted right?


Pretty much, we're the ones who have to be readjusted -- not God.
[Edited 8/28/07 17:14pm]
Go to the source: http://www.jw.org/en

Thanks! biggrin
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Reply #21 posted 08/28/07 5:17pm

Uhope

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And to answer the question --

I think the disciples did an EXCELLENT job of speaking for Jesus. nod

Anyone who claims to be speaking for Christ today as one of his disciples should pray to do half as good a job! smile
Go to the source: http://www.jw.org/en

Thanks! biggrin
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Reply #22 posted 09/01/07 7:10am

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

bluesbaby said:

JDODSONandFlashpointe said:



But as someone pointed out, he was the replacement for Judas and was not one of the originals.



Barnabas or someone replaced Judas. Not Paul.


Not in esoteric circles. There's a reason Paul is 13.... eek
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Reply #23 posted 09/01/07 7:13am

JDODSONandFlas
hpointe

meow85 said:

If you mean Paul...then no. Paul ranted about the evils of faggotry, and said women should be made to shut up in church. Christ-like? Not unless there's a big missing chunk of the Bible wherein Jesus taught the subjugation of women and dismissal of non-straight people was God's way.


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Reply #24 posted 09/01/07 7:27am

raddahone

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hopefully, their actions of love spoke louder than their words..i don't remember being there so i am not qualified to comment on this. however, i have seen one embodied today that seems to have been one of the disciples by watching his devotion and commitment of love, prayer, and service to the Divine. there is so much beauty in the present time...
~honey is b-ing 1 with the 1~
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Reply #25 posted 09/01/07 8:11am

WellInever

As far is a know, NONE of the Books (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John or Acts) were written by any of the Original 12 Disciples who's names were used for the "books." They were all written long after they were dead. They may be the sources of the stories which were passed down in the oral tradition but they were not written down for many years.
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Reply #26 posted 09/01/07 10:23am

LittleRedCorve
tte

I think the Bible teaches God's Word very well, regardless of who the actual authors are. I think it is interpretation of that Word which does not do a good job of speaking for Jesus.
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Reply #27 posted 09/01/07 10:13pm

bluesbaby

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JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

bluesbaby said:




Barnabas or someone replaced Judas. Not Paul.


Not in esoteric circles. There's a reason Paul is 13.... eek



whats the eek for.
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Reply #28 posted 09/01/07 10:35pm

Lammastide

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Frankly, because we have no examples of text directly written by Jesus, we've nothing against which to measure the accounts in books attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, the only four of the original 12 who are traditionally ascribed authorship of parts of the canonized New Testament. That is to say, whether, in fact, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John actually did write their own books, or others penned them later, attaching the names of these respected men to lend an air of credibility (as was common practice throughout the Hellenized world), 100 percent of what we know about Jesus by way of scripture, we know through second or, possibly, third, forth (...etc?) parties.

This is not at all to say that Jesus' counsel necessarily got "screwed up" in generational transmission, though. We can arrive with pretty reasonable intelligence at certain ideas he'd very likely have upheld or challenged given 1) what traditions/teachings he would have had at his own disposal (the Tanakh, for example), and 2) what agreement exists in accounts that follow him (and there is a respectable body of agreement).

Yet this is strictly a literary approach. There is the matter of inspiration. And those who abide by notions of a divine oversight that runs through the entire Bible are not without assurances in the text that the whole of the Bible is of utmost integrity. (2 Timothy 3:16)

In the end, this is a matter of personal inquiry.
[Edited 9/1/07 22:41pm]
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #29 posted 09/01/07 10:39pm

Lammastide

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JDODSONandFlashpointe said:

bluesbaby said:




Barnabas or someone replaced Judas. Not Paul.


Not in esoteric circles. There's a reason Paul is 13.... eek

Matthias is 13th, J. (Acts 1:21-26)

...And hi, BTW! wavelol Haven't chatted with you in awhile, man.
[Edited 9/1/07 22:45pm]
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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