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Reply #30 posted 08/04/06 1:30am

Justin1972UK

You know, from what I know of Cuba, it isn't "Communist" in the same way as China is "Communist". Its economic system is evidently built upon Communist principles of trade, but its cultural climate appears to be more Socialist than anything else.
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Reply #31 posted 08/04/06 5:29am

SlamGlam

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LuxuryBrown said:

Cuba is poor mainly due to the 40+ years Economic Embargo Act the U.S. has put against them.



well then Castro's death is something to look forward to indeed.
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Reply #32 posted 08/04/06 6:43am

darkstranger52
1

Socialism:

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat."

So much of the hatred and vitrol directed at the Soviet Union during the Stalin period was because the formerly pampered classes were forced to get a job and become hardworking productive citizens.

Communism:

"From each according to his ability, from each according to their need."

Communism as a socioeconomic system, can only work and sustain itself under conditions of economic abundance. Scarcity is the material base for class privilege. Despite the good intentions of the socialist countries and international communist movement of the last 150+ years, technology was not developed enough to provide for everyone's needs in those societies. This, ultimately, was what led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. As they were ceaselessly attacked by the capitalist world, including the unprecendented slaughter of 27 million people at the hands of the Nazi's in WW2, they had to spend most of their resources building up their world-class military and propping up their socialist satellites in Europe who served militarily as a buffer against future Western aggression, which left very little capital for the developing their economy. Add to this the fact that when the Bolsheviks seized power in 1917, and then won the Russian Civil War in 1920, and then produced the economic miracles of the 5-year plans in the 1930s, VERY VERY many people who were hostile to the ideals of communism, hated the progress the Party had made, joined the Party anyway, intending to slyly destroy it through sabotage and intrigue from within. The Krushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev bureuacratic elements were EXACTLY these sort of people.

Today, the technological wherewithal for communism exists.

China for one its on its way to having a proper economic infrastructure that can adequately take care of its population according to the slogan,

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."

Look for vicious political fights in China in the years ahead over who is to benefit from their economic progress.

I would not rule out a US invasion.

The real thrust of both the Korean War and the Vietnam War were to gain a foothold in Southeast Asia in order to attack China and strangle the Chinese Revolution. Both times, things did not turn out so well for the US.

Attacking China is ALWAYS on the mind of the ruling class in America.
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Reply #33 posted 08/04/06 10:00am

dseann

SlamGlam said:

dseann said:

I have no problems with the man.


so you have no porblem with all the people he mudered? let me guess you also think Che Guevara was also a great man?


Hitler was a great man, Castro is a great man, Sadam is was a great man, Che Guevara also a great man.

Look up the definition of "great" in the dictionary and you will agree that these are great men also.

So I take it you have no problem with the rest of my post just the one sentence you singled out? How "big" of you.

eek
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Reply #34 posted 08/04/06 10:03am

dseann

SlamGlam said:

LuxuryBrown said:

Cuba is poor mainly due to the 40+ years Economic Embargo Act the U.S. has put against them.



well then Castro's death is something to look forward to indeed.


So is the fucking dunce of a president you have representing your country Bush.
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Reply #35 posted 08/04/06 10:05am

dseann

darkstranger521 said:

Socialism:

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat."

So much of the hatred and vitrol directed at the Soviet Union during the Stalin period was because the formerly pampered classes were forced to get a job and become hardworking productive citizens.

Communism:

"From each according to his ability, from each according to their need."

Communism as a socioeconomic system, can only work and sustain itself under conditions of economic abundance. Scarcity is the material base for class privilege. Despite the good intentions of the socialist countries and international communist movement of the last 150+ years, technology was not developed enough to provide for everyone's needs in those societies. This, ultimately, was what led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. As they were ceaselessly attacked by the capitalist world, including the unprecendented slaughter of 27 million people at the hands of the Nazi's in WW2, they had to spend most of their resources building up their world-class military and propping up their socialist satellites in Europe who served militarily as a buffer against future Western aggression, which left very little capital for the developing their economy. Add to this the fact that when the Bolsheviks seized power in 1917, and then won the Russian Civil War in 1920, and then produced the economic miracles of the 5-year plans in the 1930s, VERY VERY many people who were hostile to the ideals of communism, hated the progress the Party had made, joined the Party anyway, intending to slyly destroy it through sabotage and intrigue from within. The Krushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev bureuacratic elements were EXACTLY these sort of people.

Today, the technological wherewithal for communism exists.

China for one its on its way to having a proper economic infrastructure that can adequately take care of its population according to the slogan,

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."

Look for vicious political fights in China in the years ahead over who is to benefit from their economic progress.

I would not rule out a US invasion.

The real thrust of both the Korean War and the Vietnam War were to gain a foothold in Southeast Asia in order to attack China and strangle the Chinese Revolution. Both times, things did not turn out so well for the US.

Attacking China is ALWAYS on the mind of the ruling class in America.



America doesn't have the balls to attack China. America won't attack countries who have the ability to fight back. In another 10 years though, China will be the only Super Power on this planet.
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Reply #36 posted 08/04/06 10:23am

LuxuryBrown

avatar

dseann said:

darkstranger521 said:

Socialism:

"He who does not work, neither shall he eat."

So much of the hatred and vitrol directed at the Soviet Union during the Stalin period was because the formerly pampered classes were forced to get a job and become hardworking productive citizens.

Communism:

"From each according to his ability, from each according to their need."

Communism as a socioeconomic system, can only work and sustain itself under conditions of economic abundance. Scarcity is the material base for class privilege. Despite the good intentions of the socialist countries and international communist movement of the last 150+ years, technology was not developed enough to provide for everyone's needs in those societies. This, ultimately, was what led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. As they were ceaselessly attacked by the capitalist world, including the unprecendented slaughter of 27 million people at the hands of the Nazi's in WW2, they had to spend most of their resources building up their world-class military and propping up their socialist satellites in Europe who served militarily as a buffer against future Western aggression, which left very little capital for the developing their economy. Add to this the fact that when the Bolsheviks seized power in 1917, and then won the Russian Civil War in 1920, and then produced the economic miracles of the 5-year plans in the 1930s, VERY VERY many people who were hostile to the ideals of communism, hated the progress the Party had made, joined the Party anyway, intending to slyly destroy it through sabotage and intrigue from within. The Krushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev bureuacratic elements were EXACTLY these sort of people.

Today, the technological wherewithal for communism exists.

China for one its on its way to having a proper economic infrastructure that can adequately take care of its population according to the slogan,

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."

Look for vicious political fights in China in the years ahead over who is to benefit from their economic progress.

I would not rule out a US invasion.

The real thrust of both the Korean War and the Vietnam War were to gain a foothold in Southeast Asia in order to attack China and strangle the Chinese Revolution. Both times, things did not turn out so well for the US.

Attacking China is ALWAYS on the mind of the ruling class in America.



America doesn't have the balls to attack China. America won't attack countries who have the ability to fight back. In another 10 years though, China will be the only Super Power on this planet.


There's no way in hell that happens. Why? Because America is the most skilled country in terrorism/war. Who do you think put castro in power? Saddam? Osama? Noriega? Yep, the good ole U.S. of A.! No one will surpass America in terms of destruction and war, that's what they live for.
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #37 posted 08/04/06 11:02am

dseann

LuxuryBrown said:

dseann said:




America doesn't have the balls to attack China. America won't attack countries who have the ability to fight back. In another 10 years though, China will be the only Super Power on this planet.


There's no way in hell that happens. Why? Because America is the most skilled country in terrorism/war. Who do you think put castro in power? Saddam? Osama? Noriega? Yep, the good ole U.S. of A.! No one will surpass America in terms of destruction and war, that's what they live for.



I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.

Where have you been?
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Reply #38 posted 08/04/06 1:24pm

darkstranger52
1

dseann said:

LuxuryBrown said:



There's no way in hell that happens. Why? Because America is the most skilled country in terrorism/war. Who do you think put castro in power? Saddam? Osama? Noriega? Yep, the good ole U.S. of A.! No one will surpass America in terms of destruction and war, that's what they live for.



I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.

Where have you been?


See, though, in a way, the wars in Afganistan and Iraq right now are proxy wars against China. They are wars designed to control China's future access to oil, for the very reasons you have already outlined. I would not rule out the United States going after China, because, again as you pointed out, the US ruling class has its back to the wall. We were VERY close to nuking China during the Korean War. Only our fear of what Russia might do stopped us. Very close. Of course, a war against China cannot be won, and may well end life on Earth. But the ruling class in the United States will NEVER quietly give up it's top dawg status. I firmly believe they would sacrifice all life on Earth to maintain their privileges, if they felt that was necessary. Their privileged status is all that they live for. We should not attempt to be TOO logical. From our perspective it is madness to attack China, from the ruling class' perspective something HAS to be done about China NOW. The war in Iraq is going very badly. The country is on the verge of Civil War. How will the US get the oil out? How will the US use Iraq as a base of operations for further military expeditions into Iran and *especially* the Caspian Sea region of Russia? These areas were very much part of the Iraq plan from the beginning, but accessing them militarily was predicated upon a stable situation in Iraq, which has yet to, and may never, materialize. So the US strategy to contain China isn't working, which we've known all along it couldn't. The folks who unleashed the war in Iraq are well aware. They have other options. Nuking china is certainly one of them.
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Reply #39 posted 08/04/06 1:28pm

LuxuryBrown

avatar

dseann said:

LuxuryBrown said:



There's no way in hell that happens. Why? Because America is the most skilled country in terrorism/war. Who do you think put castro in power? Saddam? Osama? Noriega? Yep, the good ole U.S. of A.! No one will surpass America in terms of destruction and war, that's what they live for.



I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.

Where have you been?

As long as the U.S. has the best military and weapons, they will remain the #1 Superpower. Hands down. Economics don't come into play as long as U.S. remains an ally to nations with oil. China won't become ahead of America for one major reason - Their shitty Human Rights history won't allow them to advance ahead of the U.S. and it's ridiculous to think so. That's where I've been, how about you?
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #40 posted 08/04/06 1:31pm

darkstranger52
1

I should also add that a war with China would not just come out of the blue, like we get up tomorrow and see it on the news. It could very rapidly come about under the circumstances of a major world crisis, such as Iran going to war with Israel, and dragging in the European countries, or a stock market meltdown that spreads across the world leading to chaos. Under extremely unstable world conditions, and we are likely to see such conditions sooner rather than later, there are very powerful elements who would push for war with China and use the chaos to make it happen. It could happen very quickly, but things on the world stage would need to rapidly deteriorate first.
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Reply #41 posted 08/04/06 1:41pm

darkstranger52
1

LuxuryBrown said:

dseann said:




I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.

Where have you been?

As long as the U.S. has the best military and weapons, they will remain the #1 Superpower. Hands down. Economics don't come into play as long as U.S. remains an ally to nations with oil. China won't become ahead of America for one major reason - Their shitty Human Rights history won't allow them to advance ahead of the U.S. and it's ridiculous to think so. That's where I've been, how about you?


China can mobilize an army of 300 million troops virtually overnight. The Chinese are extremely nationalistic and proud. They have the oldest continuous national culture on Earth. The period from 1812-1949 when they were colonized by foreign powers is a very deep psychological scar in the collective Chinese mind. They hate the West for what they did to China in the past, they have not forgotten, nor have they forgiven. Everyone in China is taught about the crimes committed on their soil by Westerners and by the Japanese. They are not like us in America who know precious little about our own history. I say this to say, we could nuke all the major Chinese cities, but we'd have to have a ground invasion. This ground invasion would not stand a chance in hell. We have more military technology then does China, but no way could we beat them in a fight. It's not possible. We nuke them, they nuke us, whoever is left fights it out old-school style. The Chinese win this fight - no question. The Chinese have UNITY. They have deferred to a central authority for 5,000 years, it is what they know. In America it's every person for themselves - the exact opposite of unity. Who's gonna win a nasty post-nuclear ground fight under these conditions? China.
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Reply #42 posted 08/04/06 1:50pm

namepeace

dseann said:

I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.


China's rate of economic growth is higher than virtually other nation in the world. The reforms instituted by Deng Xiaopeng are, after 2 generations, beginning to pay off in spades. They are now the biggest creditor or second-biggest creditor of the United States of America.

Their military prowess is formidable but there's little chance they'll eclipse the USA's military machine in "a few years." It will take another generation at least for China to do so.

China's insatiable thirst for energy could be the X factor. They're desperate to get first dibs on the oil supplies. That's the wild card that sends the whole thing flying or crashing for them.

Bottom line: China has certain strateguc advantages over the US, and you're right that it is unlikely that the US would ever consider military action against them a la Iraq, but it's not probable that your prediction of China overtaking the US will come true in "a few years." There's too much ground to cover and too many variables in the way

twocents
Good night, sweet Prince | 7 June 1958 - 21 April 2016

Props will be withheld until the showing and proving has commenced. -- Aaron McGruder
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Reply #43 posted 08/04/06 1:56pm

LuxuryBrown

avatar

darkstranger521 said:

LuxuryBrown said:


As long as the U.S. has the best military and weapons, they will remain the #1 Superpower. Hands down. Economics don't come into play as long as U.S. remains an ally to nations with oil. China won't become ahead of America for one major reason - Their shitty Human Rights history won't allow them to advance ahead of the U.S. and it's ridiculous to think so. That's where I've been, how about you?


China can mobilize an army of 300 million troops virtually overnight. The Chinese are extremely nationalistic and proud. They have the oldest continuous national culture on Earth. The period from 1812-1949 when they were colonized by foreign powers is a very deep psychological scar in the collective Chinese mind. They hate the West for what they did to China in the past, they have not forgotten, nor have they forgiven. Everyone in China is taught about the crimes committed on their soil by Westerners and by the Japanese. They are not like us in America who know precious little about our own history. I say this to say, we could nuke all the major Chinese cities, but we'd have to have a ground invasion. This ground invasion would not stand a chance in hell. We have more military technology then does China, but no way could we beat them in a fight. It's not possible. We nuke them, they nuke us, whoever is left fights it out old-school style. The Chinese win this fight - no question. The Chinese have UNITY. They have deferred to a central authority for 5,000 years, it is what they know. In America it's every person for themselves - the exact opposite of unity. Who's gonna win a nasty post-nuclear ground fight under these conditions? China.



Not even close. The U.S. is far more advanced in their weaponry than China and China KNOWS this. The U.S. CREATES wars JUST to test their new toys. Also, who are China's allies? THAT'S the kicker. They can mobilize all they want, the U.S. has allies that will go to war with them on even the stupidest shit (See the Iraq War) so eventually China would get overwhelmed. All the nationalism and war history won't mean a damn thing after that. America may be every person for themselves but it will be the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines that will be fighting and the U.S. KNOWS how to brainwash their military men into killing machines, trust me on that. China gets beat by a Nation built on destroying others. China isn't as savage as the U.S.

America LIVES for war. It's how they've obtained damn near EVERY piece of America and its outlaying territiories.
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #44 posted 08/04/06 3:30pm

Lammastide

avatar

SlamGlam said:

LuxuryBrown said:

Cuba is poor mainly due to the 40+ years Economic Embargo Act the U.S. has put against them.



well then Castro's death is something to look forward to indeed.

Yeah, because the embargo was against Castro; not the nation of Cuba and its entire socialist regime. nutty
[Edited 8/4/06 15:32pm]
Ὅσον ζῇς φαίνου
μηδὲν ὅλως σὺ λυποῦ
πρὸς ὀλίγον ἐστὶ τὸ ζῆν
τὸ τέλος ὁ χρόνος ἀπαιτεῖ.”
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Reply #45 posted 08/04/06 7:31pm

PurpleJedi

avatar

LuxuryBrown said:

Cuba is poor mainly due to the 40+ years Economic Embargo Act the U.S. has put against them.


nod nod nod
By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
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Reply #46 posted 08/05/06 9:14am

KoolEaze

avatar

LuxuryBrown said:

darkstranger521 said:



China can mobilize an army of 300 million troops virtually overnight. The Chinese are extremely nationalistic and proud. They have the oldest continuous national culture on Earth. The period from 1812-1949 when they were colonized by foreign powers is a very deep psychological scar in the collective Chinese mind. They hate the West for what they did to China in the past, they have not forgotten, nor have they forgiven. Everyone in China is taught about the crimes committed on their soil by Westerners and by the Japanese. They are not like us in America who know precious little about our own history. I say this to say, we could nuke all the major Chinese cities, but we'd have to have a ground invasion. This ground invasion would not stand a chance in hell. We have more military technology then does China, but no way could we beat them in a fight. It's not possible. We nuke them, they nuke us, whoever is left fights it out old-school style. The Chinese win this fight - no question. The Chinese have UNITY. They have deferred to a central authority for 5,000 years, it is what they know. In America it's every person for themselves - the exact opposite of unity. Who's gonna win a nasty post-nuclear ground fight under these conditions? China.



Not even close. The U.S. is far more advanced in their weaponry than China and China KNOWS this. The U.S. CREATES wars JUST to test their new toys. Also, who are China's allies? THAT'S the kicker. They can mobilize all they want, the U.S. has allies that will go to war with them on even the stupidest shit (See the Iraq War) so eventually China would get overwhelmed. All the nationalism and war history won't mean a damn thing after that. America may be every person for themselves but it will be the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines that will be fighting and the U.S. KNOWS how to brainwash their military men into killing machines, trust me on that. China gets beat by a Nation built on destroying others. China isn't as savage as the U.S.

America LIVES for war. It's how they've obtained damn near EVERY piece of America and its outlaying territiories.



I´ve been following this interesting debate between the two of you. I know very little about the military power of China or the USA but I remember a conversation I had with a Chinese businessman from Shanghai , we talked about Taiwan and I naively asked why a big and powerful nation like China doesn´t just take back what they think belongs to them , and he said that China isn´t powerful enough and that having a huge army doesn´t equal military power.
This conversation took place in 2001.
" I´d rather be a stank ass hoe because I´m not stupid. Oh my goodness! I got more drugs! I´m always funny dude...I´m hilarious! Are we gonna smoke?"
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Reply #47 posted 08/05/06 10:21am

LuxuryBrown

avatar

KoolEaze said:

LuxuryBrown said:




Not even close. The U.S. is far more advanced in their weaponry than China and China KNOWS this. The U.S. CREATES wars JUST to test their new toys. Also, who are China's allies? THAT'S the kicker. They can mobilize all they want, the U.S. has allies that will go to war with them on even the stupidest shit (See the Iraq War) so eventually China would get overwhelmed. All the nationalism and war history won't mean a damn thing after that. America may be every person for themselves but it will be the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines that will be fighting and the U.S. KNOWS how to brainwash their military men into killing machines, trust me on that. China gets beat by a Nation built on destroying others. China isn't as savage as the U.S.

America LIVES for war. It's how they've obtained damn near EVERY piece of America and its outlaying territiories.



I´ve been following this interesting debate between the two of you. I know very little about the military power of China or the USA but I remember a conversation I had with a Chinese businessman from Shanghai , we talked about Taiwan and I naively asked why a big and powerful nation like China doesn´t just take back what they think belongs to them , and he said that China isn´t powerful enough and that having a huge army doesn´t equal military power.
This conversation took place in 2001.


Exactly. You have to have more than just "numbers". You need the conquest gene that makes you think you're entitled to ANY damn thing and the U.S. surely has that gene and the allies to go and start war wherever they choose. In fact, the U.S. is SO fucked up in the head about war, they will lie to the U.N. about why it wants t go to war and sometimes just go against them and do whatever the fuck they want. China doesn't have that resolve.
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #48 posted 08/05/06 1:29pm

PurpleJedi

avatar

LuxuryBrown said:

KoolEaze said:




I´ve been following this interesting debate between the two of you. I know very little about the military power of China or the USA but I remember a conversation I had with a Chinese businessman from Shanghai , we talked about Taiwan and I naively asked why a big and powerful nation like China doesn´t just take back what they think belongs to them , and he said that China isn´t powerful enough and that having a huge army doesn´t equal military power.
This conversation took place in 2001.


Exactly. You have to have more than just "numbers". You need the conquest gene that makes you think you're entitled to ANY damn thing and the U.S. surely has that gene and the allies to go and start war wherever they choose. In fact, the U.S. is SO fucked up in the head about war, they will lie to the U.N. about why it wants t go to war and sometimes just go against them and do whatever the fuck they want. China doesn't have that resolve.


I disagree with that comment.
China certainly HAS the "conquest gene" (see: Tibet) but they can't just invade Taiwan on a whim. MAINLY because it would draw the ire of the West (namely the United States). Why do you think that they never "took back" Hong Kong? It would have been a piece of cake for the Chinese army to overrun the city. But then Great Britain would have sent in the big guns.
By St. Boogar and all the saints at the backside door of Purgatory!
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Reply #49 posted 08/05/06 3:05pm

LuxuryBrown

avatar

PurpleJedi said:

LuxuryBrown said:



Exactly. You have to have more than just "numbers". You need the conquest gene that makes you think you're entitled to ANY damn thing and the U.S. surely has that gene and the allies to go and start war wherever they choose. In fact, the U.S. is SO fucked up in the head about war, they will lie to the U.N. about why it wants t go to war and sometimes just go against them and do whatever the fuck they want. China doesn't have that resolve.


I disagree with that comment.
China certainly HAS the "conquest gene" (see: Tibet) but they can't just invade Taiwan on a whim. MAINLY because it would draw the ire of the West (namely the United States). Why do you think that they never "took back" Hong Kong? It would have been a piece of cake for the Chinese army to overrun the city. But then Great Britain would have sent in the big guns.

But that's just it, they haven't obtained nearly HALF as much as America has, that's why I say they don't have that "Conquest Gene" like the U.S. has.
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #50 posted 08/05/06 3:08pm

darkstranger52
1

PurpleJedi said:

LuxuryBrown said:



Exactly. You have to have more than just "numbers". You need the conquest gene that makes you think you're entitled to ANY damn thing and the U.S. surely has that gene and the allies to go and start war wherever they choose. In fact, the U.S. is SO fucked up in the head about war, they will lie to the U.N. about why it wants t go to war and sometimes just go against them and do whatever the fuck they want. China doesn't have that resolve.


I disagree with that comment.
China certainly HAS the "conquest gene" (see: Tibet) but they can't just invade Taiwan on a whim. MAINLY because it would draw the ire of the West (namely the United States). Why do you think that they never "took back" Hong Kong? It would have been a piece of cake for the Chinese army to overrun the city. But then Great Britain would have sent in the big guns.


When the Southern US states seceded from the Union in 1861 (actually, technically, they attacked the Union, aiming to turn the ENTIRE country into one large slave empire, secession was merely the formal first step) what was the response of of the Union under the leadership of Lincoln? Use any and all force to bring the renegade states back into the union. Tawian was a part of China for thousands of years. All of a sudden, because the US says so, Taiwan is no longer a part of China? Bullshit. China has every intention of bringing Taiwan back into the fold, just as Lincoln had every intention of bring the CSA back into the fold - and did. It's a question of timing. They will wait as long as it takes. They've been around for 5,000 years and they are patient.

Also, I am not arguing China could invade America and win a war. No, they don't have resources for that. China will be able to resist an invading American force successfully, though, that is my point.
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Reply #51 posted 08/05/06 3:17pm

dseann

LuxuryBrown said:

dseann said:




I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.

Where have you been?

As long as the U.S. has the best military and weapons, they will remain the #1 Superpower. Hands down. Economics don't come into play as long as U.S. remains an ally to nations with oil. China won't become ahead of America for one major reason - Their shitty Human Rights history won't allow them to advance ahead of the U.S. and it's ridiculous to think so. That's where I've been, how about you?



America has persevered with a shitty human rights record as well.
They are now covering up their shitty abuse of rights in Iraq and Cuba with their "interegational practices"(torture), which if applied to Americans would be made to seem like the worst thing on God's earth.
Military weapons don't mean shit to China, they have extensive nuclear capabilities which they aren't afraid to use and America knows this. It's the only reason America hasn't tried to do shit to them to date.
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Reply #52 posted 08/05/06 3:20pm

dseann

darkstranger521 said:

dseann said:




I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.

Where have you been?


See, though, in a way, the wars in Afganistan and Iraq right now are proxy wars against China. They are wars designed to control China's future access to oil, for the very reasons you have already outlined. I would not rule out the United States going after China, because, again as you pointed out, the US ruling class has its back to the wall. We were VERY close to nuking China during the Korean War. Only our fear of what Russia might do stopped us. Very close. Of course, a war against China cannot be won, and may well end life on Earth. But the ruling class in the United States will NEVER quietly give up it's top dawg status. I firmly believe they would sacrifice all life on Earth to maintain their privileges, if they felt that was necessary. Their privileged status is all that they live for. We should not attempt to be TOO logical. From our perspective it is madness to attack China, from the ruling class' perspective something HAS to be done about China NOW. The war in Iraq is going very badly. The country is on the verge of Civil War. How will the US get the oil out? How will the US use Iraq as a base of operations for further military expeditions into Iran and *especially* the Caspian Sea region of Russia? These areas were very much part of the Iraq plan from the beginning, but accessing them militarily was predicated upon a stable situation in Iraq, which has yet to, and may never, materialize. So the US strategy to contain China isn't working, which we've known all along it couldn't. The folks who unleashed the war in Iraq are well aware. They have other options. Nuking china is certainly one of them.


Interesting and informative post, tanx for opening my eyes to the situation a little more.
I agree and as you said, war with China can't be won and will end life on earth.

cool
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Reply #53 posted 08/05/06 3:23pm

dseann

namepeace said:

dseann said:

I wasn't talking about war or terrorism.
China is emerging as the major economic force in the world, along with their milltary capabilities, they will be the only superpower in a few years.
The American government knows it and is powerless to do anything about it unless they start a war with them which they haven't got the balls to do.

This is no secret, every country knows this to be true.


China's rate of economic growth is higher than virtually other nation in the world. The reforms instituted by Deng Xiaopeng are, after 2 generations, beginning to pay off in spades. They are now the biggest creditor or second-biggest creditor of the United States of America.

Their military prowess is formidable but there's little chance they'll eclipse the USA's military machine in "a few years." It will take another generation at least for China to do so.

China's insatiable thirst for energy could be the X factor. They're desperate to get first dibs on the oil supplies. That's the wild card that sends the whole thing flying or crashing for them.

Bottom line: China has certain strateguc advantages over the US, and you're right that it is unlikely that the US would ever consider military action against them a la Iraq, but it's not probable that your prediction of China overtaking the US will come true in "a few years." There's too much ground to cover and too many variables in the way

twocents


I respect your opinion and will leave it at that.
Peace and be wild.
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Reply #54 posted 08/05/06 3:26pm

dseann

LuxuryBrown said:

darkstranger521 said:



China can mobilize an army of 300 million troops virtually overnight. The Chinese are extremely nationalistic and proud. They have the oldest continuous national culture on Earth. The period from 1812-1949 when they were colonized by foreign powers is a very deep psychological scar in the collective Chinese mind. They hate the West for what they did to China in the past, they have not forgotten, nor have they forgiven. Everyone in China is taught about the crimes committed on their soil by Westerners and by the Japanese. They are not like us in America who know precious little about our own history. I say this to say, we could nuke all the major Chinese cities, but we'd have to have a ground invasion. This ground invasion would not stand a chance in hell. We have more military technology then does China, but no way could we beat them in a fight. It's not possible. We nuke them, they nuke us, whoever is left fights it out old-school style. The Chinese win this fight - no question. The Chinese have UNITY. They have deferred to a central authority for 5,000 years, it is what they know. In America it's every person for themselves - the exact opposite of unity. Who's gonna win a nasty post-nuclear ground fight under these conditions? China.



Not even close. The U.S. is far more advanced in their weaponry than China and China KNOWS this. The U.S. CREATES wars JUST to test their new toys. Also, who are China's allies? THAT'S the kicker. They can mobilize all they want, the U.S. has allies that will go to war with them on even the stupidest shit (See the Iraq War) so eventually China would get overwhelmed. All the nationalism and war history won't mean a damn thing after that. America may be every person for themselves but it will be the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines that will be fighting and the U.S. KNOWS how to brainwash their military men into killing machines, trust me on that. China gets beat by a Nation built on destroying others. China isn't as savage as the U.S.

America LIVES for war. It's how they've obtained damn near EVERY piece of America and its outlaying territiories.



Nuclear weapons cancels any advantage in weaponry my friend.....You fire your nukes, I fire my nukes.....no one can win.
What it comes down to is who has the balls to push the button. America would like to but are afraid of the consequences. China doesn't give a shit about consequences, their mentality is shoot at me, I'm shooting back no matter what.
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Reply #55 posted 08/05/06 5:31pm

LuxuryBrown

avatar

darkstranger521 said:

PurpleJedi said:



I disagree with that comment.
China certainly HAS the "conquest gene" (see: Tibet) but they can't just invade Taiwan on a whim. MAINLY because it would draw the ire of the West (namely the United States). Why do you think that they never "took back" Hong Kong? It would have been a piece of cake for the Chinese army to overrun the city. But then Great Britain would have sent in the big guns.


Also, I am not arguing China could invade America and win a war. No, they don't have resources for that. China will be able to resist an invading American force successfully, though, that is my point.


But your error is thinking that it would JUST be the U.S. invading. The U.S. allies would also be in on it and that would easily overwhelm China.
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #56 posted 08/05/06 5:33pm

LuxuryBrown

avatar

dseann said:

LuxuryBrown said:


As long as the U.S. has the best military and weapons, they will remain the #1 Superpower. Hands down. Economics don't come into play as long as U.S. remains an ally to nations with oil. China won't become ahead of America for one major reason - Their shitty Human Rights history won't allow them to advance ahead of the U.S. and it's ridiculous to think so. That's where I've been, how about you?



America has persevered with a shitty human rights record as well.
They are now covering up their shitty abuse of rights in Iraq and Cuba with their "interegational practices"(torture), which if applied to Americans would be made to seem like the worst thing on God's earth.
Military weapons don't mean shit to China, they have extensive nuclear capabilities which they aren't afraid to use and America knows this. It's the only reason America hasn't tried to do shit to them to date.


Get real. The U.S., as shitty as they are, STILL does WAY better on human rights than China, so don't even try it.

And again, name China's allies that would help fight the U.S.?
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #57 posted 08/05/06 5:36pm

LuxuryBrown

avatar

dseann said:

LuxuryBrown said:




Not even close. The U.S. is far more advanced in their weaponry than China and China KNOWS this. The U.S. CREATES wars JUST to test their new toys. Also, who are China's allies? THAT'S the kicker. They can mobilize all they want, the U.S. has allies that will go to war with them on even the stupidest shit (See the Iraq War) so eventually China would get overwhelmed. All the nationalism and war history won't mean a damn thing after that. America may be every person for themselves but it will be the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines that will be fighting and the U.S. KNOWS how to brainwash their military men into killing machines, trust me on that. China gets beat by a Nation built on destroying others. China isn't as savage as the U.S.

America LIVES for war. It's how they've obtained damn near EVERY piece of America and its outlaying territiories.



Nuclear weapons cancels any advantage in weaponry my friend.....You fire your nukes, I fire my nukes.....no one can win.
What it comes down to is who has the balls to push the button. America would like to but are afraid of the consequences. China doesn't give a shit about consequences, their mentality is shoot at me, I'm shooting back no matter what.


If you think China doesn't give a shit about nuclear consequences then there's no reason to continue this diuscussion with you. For some strange reason you think China is this savage nation and has zero fear of anything, to which you couldn't be further from the truth.
~This brown experience made me the man that I was meant to be~
~So what you see is what you see, can't be nobody else but me~ -Luxury Brown
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Reply #58 posted 08/05/06 7:43pm

jone70

avatar

I found it curious that the Cubans immigrants living in Miami whom I saw interviewed on TV were excited because they were looking forward to being able to visit their families still in Cuba (if Castro dies). None of them mentioned being excited about the possibility of moving back to Cuba.

Something about them staying in the US and not even considering moving back to help rebuild/shape a new Cuba (if Castro dies, if there are gov't changes) seemed off to me.

Admittedly I'm no political expert, but it just seemed odd to me.

twocents
The check. The string he dropped. The Mona Lisa. The musical notes taken out of a hat. The glass. The toy shotgun painting. The things he found. Therefore, everything seen–every object, that is, plus the process of looking at it–is a Duchamp.
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Reply #59 posted 08/05/06 8:39pm

darkstranger52
1

LuxuryBrown said:

dseann said:




Nuclear weapons cancels any advantage in weaponry my friend.....You fire your nukes, I fire my nukes.....no one can win.
What it comes down to is who has the balls to push the button. America would like to but are afraid of the consequences. China doesn't give a shit about consequences, their mentality is shoot at me, I'm shooting back no matter what.


If you think China doesn't give a shit about nuclear consequences then there's no reason to continue this diuscussion with you. For some strange reason you think China is this savage nation and has zero fear of anything, to which you couldn't be further from the truth.


The Chinese are not savages, but they ARE fearless. I think you would gain some insight if you gave the history of the Korean War a bit of study. In this conflict, the Chinese showed the whole world exactly how low their balls hang. It is really not an open question.

The other thing you fail to consider is if China were attacked, she would be aided by at a minimum India and likely Russia. If China were attacked by the US, we are talking WW3, and China would have plenty of allies - PLENTY. The majority of the world HATES the American government and the corporate ruling class they whore for right now - China would not have to look far for friends.
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