No. Things are only predestined by cumulative natural selection and nothing else. There is no destiny as ordained by a god and there is also very little chance. There is no need for God when we can already explain how we got here with a great deal of accuracy.

mrdespues said:

Chance plays a large part in evolutionary science, don't forget.

As to the question though, I do believe in fate to some extent, yes. Not that we're all relentlessly walking our own pre-determined lines, but to some extent i do.

TheFrog said:

No, read the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. This is what most creationists get wrong...they think evolutions flaw is that it is all down to chance, which it is definitely not....evolution is CUMULATIVE and the only element of chance is mutation. Chance in fact does play a part, but a VERY SMALL PART. Very, very, very small.

mrdespues said:

Sorry Mrdespues, but that's not true. Chance plays a big part in evolutionary theory and mutation is certainly NOT the only element of chance!! Goodness. Chance due to environmental events causing catastrophic extinctions - chance every day when we walk out onto the street and a drunk plows into one of us when we don't look. Natural selection and chance play off each other all the time. Mutations are one aspect only. I'm not a creationist in the sense of disputing Darwinism - I don't (although I do believe in God). I'm an avid adherent of evolutionary theory. And i appreciate Richard Dawkins as a commentator and I have read his material. If we're nominating books, I suggest you read anything by Ernst Mayr who's been at the forefront of evolutionary theory for decades.

TheFrog said:

well according to dawkins, chance is slight in comparison to the comparitavely smaller numbers (ie less chance) which come in to play due to the way in which natural selection works and can only possibly work, which is cumulatively. probablilites add up and less chance is involved in fact.

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[This message was edited Mon May 24 3:44:52 2004 by mrdespues]

Are things Predestined and do Things Happen because God said it Shall be?

mrdespues said:

Actually, i want to retract what i said about being hit by a drunk driver, because that's a stupid example, since the unit in relation to which evolution is generally measured is on the scale of Populations, not individuals. But even within homo sapiens, (although of course proponents of evolutionary theory disagree) there are pretty strong arguments to be made (see Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel") that chance environmental factors have played a substantial role in the development of man.

But it's hard to distinguish chance and "pure" natural selection sometimes. I really think the two go hand in hand, although I agree - i'm not for a moment suggesting chance has a greater influence than "pure" natural selection. But i do think it goes beyond mutation (although again, i acknowledge the important of mutations).

crapspellingedit
[This message was edited Mon May 24 3:56:48 2004 by TheFrog]

TheFrog said:

looks like we agree after all.

mrdespues said:

Think that deserves a beer. I'm off to the pub.

when u know how ur gonna die, it tends to give u less stress. i already know how i'm gonna die, so i don't let the silly things bother me.

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[This message was edited Mon May 24 4:12:18 2004 by NEWPOWERBABY]

NEWPOWERBABY said:

er REALLY?

how about if you've got cancer. that would stress me out a fair bit actually!

or being in a plane that is going to crash? ditto. big stressss.

mrdespues said:

cuz everytime i get into a situation i'm like ..... hey wait a minute this ain't the way i'm supposed to die !!!! every time

when u know how ur gonna die, it tends to give u less stress. i already know how i'm gonna die, so i don't let the silly things bother me.

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[This message was edited Mon May 24 4:12:18 2004 by NEWPOWERBABY]

NEWPOWERBABY said:

really? how often?

sounds like you think you're going to die a lot! do you live in the middle of an airport runway or something?

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[This message was edited Mon May 24 4:18:13 2004 by mrdespues]

mrdespues said:

[color=blue:903ccf0c0d]No, she just lives in LA
[/color]

well according to dawkins, chance is slight in comparison to the comparitavely smaller numbers (ie less chance) which come in to play due to the way in which natural selection works and can only possibly work, which is cumulatively. probablilites add up and less chance is involved in fact.

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[This message was edited Mon May 24 3:44:52 2004 by mrdespues]

Does anyone have any genital herpes cream i could borrow?

Personally, I believe in God's will, but I believe its up to us to decide whether we want to follow it or not. In other words, God may have a plan for us, but we have the free will to chose whether or not we go along with it.