As I was reading applekisses' apology and thinking about the correspondence between myself and rdhull over today and yesterday, many thoughts came to me. If they come across muddled, I apologize but I think you guys will get the gist of what I'm saying.

In my previous incarnation on the Org as Stymie, I was accussed by select orgers and some who used different screen names to try and insult me, one of which has tried to use my words against me on another site, of being an Uncle Tom, of not being black enough, of being a self-loathing black woman, etc. Some of these same people spouted hateful words towards persons of another race, some kind of tit-for-tat bullshit, you call me a racist and I'm gonna call you one back, yada yada. Some of the things I said in the past were said out of my own ignorance. I can admit that. I am a work in progress whose eyes were recently opened with the other site drama.

Whether or not people choose to believe it, I am not a sell-out or any other deroggatory term my own people have chosen to call me. I choose to see the person and not the color of his or her skin, and when I refer to my friends, I don't say 'my white friend Chris' or 'my Hispanic friend Richard'. They are Chris and Richard to me and I really should not have let the words of a few people affect me so much, especially when they have to hide behind multiple screen personalities to do so. As far as my dating preference, as I am sure that will be tried to be used against me yet again, when I made the comment I should have given an explanation as to why I feel the way I do or maybe I shouldn't have. Evryone has reasons as to why they are attracted to a certain type of person. Does that make me self-loathing? Don't know. Don't give a fuck anymore.

There are a lot of times where I feel that I am in the middle on something. If I agree with someone who happens to be white, I get accused of being a sell-out, so I stay on the sidelines and say nothing. And that's one of the problems on the Org: Staying on the sidelines. Racism and homophobia is wrong no matter who spouts it. I do not believe with my whole being that rdhull is a homophobe. I believe the issues he had with Chris were trying to prove a point: There are racists things said on the Org that go unchecked. But that's on both sides, though. If someone who's white starts a bait thread and says something hateful, someone black will strike back with something equally hateful, which is, in my opinion, counterproductive and juvenile. This works both ways, by the way.

I really don't believe we need a report to moderator button but more moderators. One for each forum as some of the shit I read on here is unbelievable. I would love to actually be able to have a real conversation on the Org about race relations in here, but as long as black and white people on this site lower themselves to below the belt comments, that ain't gonna happen.

As far as the main offenders on that other site, I would like to express my disappointment as I was one of the people who was sure that those people would not say such racist things. As far as applekisses is concerned, there was a thread here on the Org where one of the offenders used the phrase and knew how angry it made a lot of people here on the Org, people of all colors. There are a lot of outdated words that still anger people. BUT Apples, I have made a lot of mistakes in my life and I would never group you with those other people. I apologize if my comments on threads here have hurt you.

I am choosing to rise above the bullshit.

P.S. Teacher, I have so much respect for you, you wouldn't believe it.

hi Stymie! Thanks for your Orgnote and I can't wait to finally meet you when I get to Chicago

DavidEye said:

Hey David! This shit didn't look this long when I was typing it out!

You're black??... :O

You're female??... :O

































You're right.

IMO, this issue has been brewing for years... There are some members that you can discuss race issues with rationally and others you simply cannot no matter how carefully you approach the subject.

David, you are gonna have to report back to me. Stymies my girl and I can't wait to get my ass out to Chitown so I can meet some of the coolest orgers on the planet

.
[This message was edited Tue Feb 10 13:29:20 PST 2004 by SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy]

tofka, you said a lot just then! all of this racist crap was the reason i took a nice long break. i'm glad you spelled it out so well!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

If both of you show up in Chicago at the same time, am gonna have a heart attack!!! But back on topic, I hate that it makes people leave and I have that when someone speaks up on the issue, they get accused of being racist.

DavidEye said:

uh oh...you're coming to chi-town? i'ma hide my madonna stuff!

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

Chicago! Don't they have those delicious cheesesteaks!?

2the9s said:

that's philly

Hey, since we can't seem to stay on topic, Can someone start a thread for me in the Prince forum? PP9 just posted this on the NPGMC site:


Prince and the NPG will be playing The Fillmore in San Francisco on Saturday, February 14th. We will post the details 2 the member sale shortly. Tell a friend.

SassierBritches said:

...
[This message was edited Tue Feb 10 13:43:30 PST 2004 by DavidEye]

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

you know, that's exactly what happened to me a while back. i don't even remember what the topic was but it turned into a race issue and because i was not in agreement, i was labeled a racist by several people. there was one person in particular who went on to be really derogatory (yet, i was the racist) and that's when i was like "whatever, man. this is supposed to be fun. if i want a debate i'll go to class."

things have gotten a little better but i also tend to stay away from the p&r forum.

DavidEye said:

nope. not a one.

j/k

there's plenty.
[This message was edited Tue Feb 10 13:43:38 PST 2004 by SassierBritches]

I see nothing wrong with The Org is a microcosim of different races, different personalities, different hairdos, different opinions, different shoe sizes, different preferences, different countries, different styles of posting, different, different..

We learned alot, and hopefully we can take our experience from the past week, and turn it into something positive.. I think we are big enough to do that.

SassierBritches said:

Doesn't Chicago have that delicious gumbo?!

Very impressive post. You bring up a whole lot of good points, as well as some possible explanations as to what created the climate of the other site.

I'm working hard to make up for my part in the whole debacle, but I can't say that this hasn't helped me to grow as a person. Many issues have been brought up in the last week that have really made me re-examine how I interact with others. IAmTheTouch and Byron really helped me to see a whole lot as to how my comments were being perceived, no matter what my intention was behind them. I'm also questioning the way I always deal with things through humour. Sure, it can be a healthy thing, but not if it's at the expense of someone's feelings.

Moreover, I'm realising that words are very powerful. I've always had black friends sling terms like "N***a" around, and I see how they use that as an empowerment tool. Likewise, they often tell "black" jokes to me, and I see how they are having a bit of fun at their own expense. The problem comes in when a white boy (like me) tries to do the same thing. Amongst my friends, they know its just a joke, but that's because they know where my heart truly lies. On the internet, there is no way to see this. My words are laid out bare, with no way for the reader to know my intention. This creates pain in the reader, since (to them) its a sensless attack on who they are. Perception is that individual's reality, and their perception is that anyone saying these things is a racist a**hole.

I've used humour to deal with much of the pain of my past. This is also okay, so long as I know where the line is, i.e. the point that I'm dredging up painful memories in others who don't deal with these issues in the same manner.

So it all comes down to communication, does it not? We need to choose our words carefully, since this is a medium of nothing but words. Does this mean we can't make jokes or give each other a bit of a hard time? Of course not, but we need to be RESPONSIBLE about it. We need to start examining our racial, political and social issues in an intelligent manner, instead of making lame jokes and calling each other names. We need to talk with one another on an adult level. Most of all, we need to respect each other.

I know some may be reading this and snickering, since I did participate in the goings on at the other site. Well, I understand if you are sceptical of me, but I guess I'll just have to prove it to you over time.

Once again, I apologise for my part in things. I think this sums everything up that I'm feeling right now, so I don't plan on discussing this any further. If we are to leave this behind, then I shouldn't keep bringing it up. Peace.

sag10 said:

Luv, you didn't have to spell half that stuff out, except maybe for your own catharsis. We all know where you're coming from, and your confidence & eloquence come through in everything you contribute. You temper your anger and passion with humor and balance, and you're always fair-minded and emotionally generous with your point of view.

You might have recently decided to "rise above the BS", but you were already way above it from the start.

I think what we can really learn from recent events - and from "heated debate" on the Intrawebs in general - is that such incidents tend to take on the same pattern and the same semantic tricks and twists and turns - and when we boil down all the name calling and defense mechanisms, what's left? Anything of any substance? Anything we can learn from? More often than not, the answer is a big, fat NO.

But still, it's all too easy to get sucked into the shitstorm, isn't it?

It's a little on the mauve side. could do with a dash more red with white polka dots.

yoo hoo! Ben!

Excellent post Stymie, and the same to JediMaster.

I was going to try and post something with a similar vibe
a few days ago, but I just couldn't seem to get it together
in a form that properly expressed what I was trying to say.
(I'm not the most articulate when it comes to serious stuff).

I guess I've been very lucky, I've always had many friends
from many ethnic backgrounds, and lived in a fairly racist-
free environment. Like JediMaster, I'm quite used to some of
my black friends telling 'black' jokes, and me telling 'local
people' jokes (which are akin to Redneck jokes). I'm a Brit
so I guess I'm more used to, and accepting of, self-
depreciating and dark humor.

Anyway, one thing I have learned is that even though here in
the UK we certainly still have race issues, things are
definitely far more acute in the US. And therefore many
attitudes and 'isms' are still to real and prevelant to be
taken lightly.

TheOrgerFormerlyKnownAs said:

hey..im there...where the white women at?

sosgemini said:

okay..dumb joke..but i was feeling the spirit of Clevon Little..Its still okay to reference Mel Brooks movies right?

seriously though..who is going to this jamm?

and...great thread tofka!!

aww. i missed the whole org drama. i mean, i tuned in for a few days and it was raging and i guess there's fall out now?


anyway about prince in SF ~

those lucky bay people!

XxAxX said:

Babycakes, Ive seen u really grow this past year as a person - may u keep on growing, and may I continue 2 have the honour of seeing this work in progress take shape 4 many more years 2 come. Seriously, the change in u has really been an amazing positive turnaround.

MORE POWER 2 YA. U know how I feel about ya. I dont need 2 S-P-E-L-L it out.

Now pass the sickbucket someone will ya?

bananacologne said:

I will second this. I remember the Stymie who expressed sadness in relation to her sexuality and now she's budding and blooming more sure of herself and who she is. I love you Stymie

The problem is denial. Everybody wants to forget what happened and move on as long as it didn't affect them.
That's how slavery and racism have thrived so long in this country. I hold anger to none of yall, but as far as being friends or even remotely cool(you've got to be kidding) :LOL: Also i hear that the other(black side) makes racist remarks also. Can anybody point these out or are they just speculation? Cause the shit i got is from the horses mouth printed in black and white.

The problem is denail. You can only follow what you want to follow...

As for examples, all the banter back and forth in the "gay minstrel" thread discussing these kinds of tacicts should suffice, but being that a black orger saying she encountered this aint enough for ya I suppose there's no sense in proving anything