Decided to come back, stop lurking and ask your opinions on something I recently changed my own opinion about, the touchy topic of suicide.


Issue number 1: Most people will tell u committing suicide is very egotistical, and there's no arguing with that from where I sit. But... isn't it a person's prerogative do decide what to do with their own life? Suicide is illegal in many countries, which I find ridiculous. Possibly it's only illegal so that the police can investigate whether or not it really was suicide, but I've heard some absurd stories about people charged with attempted suicide.

Also, it's often argued that the person thinking of committing suicide should consider the feelings of close ones, but shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the close ones consider and respect the suicidée's (is that a word?) wishes to end his or her own life, hard as it may be? I have one reservation to this, and that is if u are a parent. To me, if u have the responsibility of another human being who didn't choose to be there, then u need to take care of that before u consider your own feelings.

Issue number 2: It seems to be a common feeling that suicide is cowardly, a way of running away from your problems. I thought so too, until very recently. Now I instead feel that there is no braver thing, to face that realisation in your life, that u really want to die. There ARE problems that are monumental and in no way your fault, and if u decide that there is no other way of overcoming these problems than taking your life, so be it.



That was my points and feelings on it, can I please have yours?

If someone wants to kill themselves then there is nothing that anyone can do or say to stop them. The matter of responsibility, selfishness etc are not even part of the equation because suicide is something that is not quite textbook/explainable to those who are contemplating it.

OMG This is touchy!

First: Happy New Year Teacher! And sorry for not getting back to you, but you are still loved.

Second: I say a person should be able to end their life if that is what they really want.

Sometimes there is no real choice for that person, sad as it is. And that is their only way forward - a way out.

I totally sympathise for both the person AND their famliy.

It is heartbreaking for someone close to watch a loved one make that decision, knowing they cannot help, and will say it is cowardly etc etc and try to help as much as they can, but really nobody can help, if it does come to that.

I know many people will disagree with me here, either they have not had experience of this and do think suicide is selfish, or maybe they are angry and hurt cos they have lost someone close from suicide, but I can only give my opinion here.

There are some sources of help around...one should use them, but when that person has tried everything imaginable and on offer to them and nothing helps, unfortunately, their only cure is to say goodbye...
[This message was edited Sat Jan 10 11:28:37 PST 2004 by REDFEATHERS]

REDFEATHERS said:

That're my sentiments almost exactly. Nowadays.

I AM a bit cross with u for not getting back to me

Teacher said:

I have been really shit - sorry

It's not important.

Teacher said:

It isss...I have been shit with everyone...

Teacher's back!

Cloudbuster said:

Stay on topic

Cloudbuster said:

To examine this issue, it's important to consider the reasons behind the suicide.

Some want to commit suicide because of terminal illness. These people are not simply suffering from depression and about to take their own life due to mental illness. It's a touchy issue, but personally I support assisted suicide of fully cognizant people who are simply making a choice between going through the pain of a terminal illness and the pain of taking their own life.

All other suicides fall in the other category, in which suicide is caused by mental illness and/or addiction. Both can be treated with proper intervention, although it can be exceedingly difficult. The stigman attached to mental illness and addiction makes it difficult to intervene. Recently, the father of my best childhood friend committed suicide, to the surprise of everyone. He was a gambling addict and no one knew. When his debts became unbearable, he simply called his son and pulled the trigger as soon as as he heard him coming into the house.

There was no way to prevent this one because this man wouldn't get help. As long as mental illness and addictions are not really considered legitimate illnesses like cancer or AIDS and that connotations of selfishness, weakness of character and the likes are attached to them, suicide prevention will remain difficult. Adding to the difficulty is the built-in resistance to help that comes with depression and addiction. It takes a lot of courage to take the decision to get help, because the person must distanciate himself/herself long enough from the mindset of the mental illness or addiction. Often, years have gone by since they last escaped the clouded judgment that comes with those conditions. The damage they have done to their lives and opportunies also place tremendous stress. When this stress can be transformed into a motivation for change, there is great hope. When it remains a motivation for self-destruction, suicide is more likely.

I believe simply saying we should let people kill themselves ignores basic mental health principles. Depression and addiction can be treated. Some people cannot be helped enough to prevent suicide, but that's no different than cancer where some live and some don't. Every year, thousands of people choose to live due to treatment and intervention. They outnumber the suicides, though we'll never know exactly how much due to the "cry for help" theory of "manipulative" suicide threats.
[This message was edited Sat Jan 10 12:09:11 PST 2004 by Aerogram]

Angel, R U ok?

I agree in so many ways with Aerogram.
I am presently in touch with someone who is really wanting to die
to escape psychological pain.
Fact is though, some days the person feels good, and is happy he is alive.
Then...boom...spiraling back down to the depths of dsepair.

He is once again suicidal.
His pain is unbearable he says.
The darkness is too dark.
The burdens too heavy.
He prays to not wake up.

The diagnosis: Bi-polar mood disorder.

Is there help?

Yes...but no cure.

Should he end his life?

I don't think so.

Why not?

Because so many who have been in the same space have been helped
...with medication and theraphy.

And for others, time had produced changes.
Some have entered long periods of remission
where life has been good for themselves and those who love them.

I must admit that when this one is in the throes of despair,
death does seem a reasonable solution.
They can almost tates the freedom of never having to feel the pain again.

I really feel for those who suffer such deep mental
(or physical) distress, that they just want out.

But I keep hoping and praying that somehow they will
find a different solution that will bring them peace.

Death will come in its own time.

Melody

Aerogram said:

So, let me get this straight: U are saying that anybody who's not physically terminally ill and still wants to take their own life, is mentally ill? I don't buy that for a minute. U are then presuming that EVERYBODY who feels that their life has so little or no worth that they don't want to go on with it are depressed. I would say that's true sometimes of course, but not always. I would call them clearsighted then, not necessarily mentally ill. Even if they ARE depressed, why should their wishes not be respected? U can treat the depression, but not all the possible original reasons for the depression.

KAMILLE said:

Not even close. Was wondering how long it would take for somebody to ask me that.


Now, get back on topic.

I lost one of the most important people in my life almost a year ago.

My cousin Gavin in Ireland was found hanging from a beam in the family garden shed.

I/we are still reeling from the shock of what happened, and we all have our own ideas and thoughts about what may or may not have made him take that route. But it doesnt help really - sure, talking about it helps some, but u ALWAYS come back 2 the same place every damned time: that there is NO answer.

I guess if there was a note, at least that would have given us all some way 2 rationlise/reason with his actions - but we're just left with more questions, and NO answer whatsoever.

The one thing that always troubles me and eats away at me is that the nite this happened, I thought of ringing him - and I never did. THAT just fucking sucks. People tell me I shouldnt think that way - but it's impossible NOT 2 think of something like that in light of such a thing.

We were very close, which made/makes it all the more hard 2 comprehend at times. He was more like the big brother I never had, and we used 2 just have the best fun 2gether.

The one thing I AM glad I did was the last time I saw him - I gave him a big hug before flying back home and told Him I loved Him. It's a small comfort, but a comfort all the same.

Not a damned day goes by where I dont think of him, and Im gonna get my very 1st tattoo done on his birthday in march of this year 2 mark it in some way - so that I can try and move on from it. I've designed something personal, and special 2 me FOR him. Im gonna have it done on my upper left arm so that's he's always close 2 my heart.

I HAVE 2 find some way 2 deal with it - I guess we all do. We all have 2 find our own way of lessening that pain. because suicide just isnt like a normal death where u can come 2 terms with the fact in the cold light of day in a number of more natural ways, and go through the grieving process. But HOW are u supposed 2 do that with suicide? I dont know - I still dont, and I doubt I ever will.

I never thought in a million years that Gavin would do such a thing - EVER. Hell, It never even crossed my mind that I'd ever be attending funeral of ANYBODY that I knew through suicide (who does?) - much less a member of my family.

Sometimes I get angry and hate him 4 what he's done, other times I feel it took a lot of courage 2 do what he did - sometimes, pain can be so intense that rationality flies outta the window, and that becomes a very attractive option just 2 stop it.

There is NOTHING I would not freely give 2 have him back...NOTHING.

I dont know...I dont have an answer.

But I so wish I did.
[This message was edited Sat Jan 10 12:31:10 PST 2004 by bananacologne]

bananacologne said:

I remember reading about this before, and I am sorry to hear about your cousin. I appreciate your sharing this with us. May I ask u if u think it would feel better if he HAD left a note explaining it, or would u just have felt that much more angry cos u would have liked to try to help him?

Teacher said:

I wish I could answer that too. Who knows?

edit
[This message was edited Tue Jan 20 19:07:55 PST 2004 by crazyhorse]

I had a very good friend commit suicide a year ago. Brillant guy! One of the funniest people I've ever met. Always making jokes and huge fun to be around. Every since his divorce he wasn't the same, but still possessed the same qualities that made me love the guy. Had 2 beautiful children, you just never thought that he was capable of commiting suicide because he loved life so much.

I lost contact with him for about a year, but it was always on my mind to make contact with him. Well, I received a call from my ex-girlfriend who was a mutual friend of his and she told me he was killed in a fire. I was devestated! Shortly after an investigation was done, it turned out that he had committed suicide before the fire had started. This blew my mind! Andy committed fucking suicide! That SON OF A FUCKING BITCH! How could he do some stupid shit like that?! He wasn't terminally ill, no was he in any other kind of trouble that anyone knew of. Why would he go out like that!?

This broke my heart even more for it was premeditated.

My philosophy is that you can't quit the game, you have to be taken out.

Personlly I feel it was selfish, sure everyone is entitled to do what they want with their life. I would've preferred him to have a self destructive lifestyle with an inevitable tragic ending rather than going out with a wimper.

sinisterpentatonic said:

Teacher said:

You have to ask yourself how did they came to feel so useless and worthless. Did they find themselves in a situation over which they had no control? It can happen, but most of the time, mental health has been a factor in creating the situation that is becoming increasingly intolerable. People make poor choices because they think little of themselves or become overconfident due to compulsion, and it accumulates over months and years. The person might not feel truly depressed for a long time, because the habits that are slowly underdoing them also provide temporary relief from the stress they feel.It can be many things. You can choose to stay in an unhappy relationship for financial reasons. You can spend your money on partying and cars and live in financial insecrutiy. You can feel powerless toward improving your education or professional situation. All of life's challenges take a degree of motivation, and we are not equally motivated for very complex and varied reasons. Yet we know that people have gotten out of the worst holes and regained a feeling of self-worth with the proper assistance. Feeling worthless is a symptom of depression, and if indeed it's true that the person is of little importance to anyone, it's almost always because they removed themselves from any situation where they might feel worthwile and have decided not to take advantage of opportunities they would have seized had they felt more confident.

Depression is not always laying down on the couch all day. It takes many forms and it is sneaky. Some people are profundly depressed about their lives but can crack jokes all day long. They compartimentalize their suffering and lack of self-esteem and let the problems grow in the background while they escape anxiety through activities that gives them fast, temporary relief while exacerbating the situation (such as doing drugs, maxing credit cards, gampling, drinking, etc.).


In short, I do believe that mental health is involved in most suicides, especially those based on a person's view of his own worth. We are often the worst judge of our character, and that is never more true that in the case of depression. The depressed person often thinks his outlook is Reality with a capital R, when in fact it is altered by the person's self-image.

I think that our natural instincts as human beings is to preserve life rather than destroy it or see it destroyed. I think that if society viewed suicide as a viable option, What value is there on life? I think we should concentrate on treating the mindset of the potentially suicidal person rather than attemting to say "It's okay if you want to, we don't mind," because WE SHOULD CARE and do our utmost to prevent it from happening. If someone is intent on commiting suicide we have a responsibilty to help them, because suicide stems from depression, which can be treated. It's an emotive issue.

Aerogram said:

Where does it say that a person's self image is only the "right" one if they feel ok or good about themselves? To me, it SHOULD be my right to view me as I see fit, who says that image is wrong?

I think that shrinks and do-gooders need to accept that some people don't want to go on with life, and deal with THEIR self image instead.

Teacher said:

I agree

Teacher said:

If they feel ok about themselves, then why is it necessary to end what is "ok"? That's not feeling "ok". When a person wants to die, even situations that can be solved look unsovable or not worth solving. Depression deforms perception, and the afflicted person is not fully aware of the extent of this distortion, because that's what they truly perceive through their mental prism. I didn't know my sight was blurry until I got glasses -- I thought everyone saw like that.

If you don't believe in this stuff, I cannot convince you. I've explained what I know about this topic. There are other schools of thoughts, but I can tell you what I just told you is absolutely textbook and accepted by 99 % of mental health and addiction professionals, and backed up with thousands of case studies.

Aerogram said:

Aerogram said:

U misunderstood what I wrote. I said that it's only acceptable if they ALREADY FEEL ok or good, not otherwise. That's the problem I feel, some things are just not meant to be fixed... that it's possible doesn't mean it should be done.
Also, of course the mental health and addiction professionals say this, this is the common view on things. I'm speaking of a different view altogether.

I'm just gonna ask--enough of the hypotheticals.

Jen, is this just purely a philosophical discussion, or are you considering suicide for yourself?