DigitalLisa said:

conch5184 said:

I would like to see your source on that living six years longer because I have researched the subject and EVERY scientific study I came across said that there is no difference in life span due to meat consumption.

i'll try to find the source. i've read a lot about the subject so i can't always remember where i got what information. but like i said it's apparently based on the idea that a vegetarian diet is more plant-based. not as far as i know directly tied to the meat itself.


[then again there are those links between meat and heart disease and meat and colon cancer]
[This message was edited Fri Dec 26 13:27:17 PST 2003 by conch5184]

DigitalLisa said:

i needed that

here's a great source of a lot of info about atkins. take it with a grain of salt and consider carefully just like you would the argument for atkins. this is your health and you only get one body.

http://www.atkinsdietaler...sumer.html

so drink some fucking milk with it

actually milk has as much protein as anything else, so it would only add to the problem
but that does make milk a great option for vegetarians. in fact if you get as much milk as you're supposed to get for your daily calcium you also get forty percent of your protein at the same time. also you're supposed to get (USDA recommendations) 6-11 servings of grains a day, preferably whole grains. if you get 6 servings for those needs (fiber, folate, iron, niacin, etc) you also get about sixty percent of your [protein!] there. 40+60= 100. and i believe that getting too much protein is negative. so that's where it becomes very interesting that there is nothing you can get from any meat that you cannot get from other sources (minus the unnecessary protein). you can get b12 from those wheat servings (especially fortified cereals such as "total", etc etc), as well as iron. you can get the healthful omega 3s and amino acids from olive oil, flax seeds, flax oil instead of from fish.
it would seem to be that there really isn't room for meat in a well-balanced diet.
[This message was edited Fri Dec 26 14:07:42 PST 2003 by conch5184]

here's an interesting article i found about age and vegetarianism. sweet story too

http://www.theage.com.au/...m=storyrhs



Vegetarians have always claimed their lifestyle is healthier. Now new research supports it. Roger Dobson reports.


When a vegetarian, Marie-Louise Meilleur, was named as the world’s oldest person at 122, the usual hunt for the secret of her longevity ensued. Was it hard work, religion, having a lot of friends, a good man, a life of abstinence, being a non-smoker?


For the French-Canadian woman who took up fencing at 85, smoked until she was 95, still rode a bicycle at 100 and made a rap CD at 121, the reason for living so long was put down to a vegetarian diet, supplemented by modest amounts of olive oil, port wine and chocolate.

Meilleur, who died six years ago, was the latest in a long line of holders of the title as the world’s oldest person whose diets have been exclusively or largely vegetarian. Every now and then remarkably old people such as her emerge, although usually they are found among geographically isolated agrarian peoples whose diets are primarily vegetarian, such as the Hunzakuts of northern Pakistan and the mountain-dwellers of Turkey.

The notion that vegetarian diets lead to a healthier and longer life has been further supported from research based on World War II experiences of people in Scandinavia, where dietary restrictions virtually wiped meat off the menu. The loss of meat led to a drop in the mortality rate, and when diets returned to normal after the war, so too did the death rate.

Despite these observations, there has never been any definitive proof of just how much extra time on Earth a vegetarian can expect to get. Not, that is, until now. New research shows that being a vegetarian for 20 years or more adds almost four years to the average lifespan.

Dr Pramil Singh, who led the research at Loma Linda University in California, says: “We are the first to come up with a life-expectancy figure showing a very important increase in life expectancy for those who follow a vegetarian diet for a long period of time.”

Singh and other epidemiologists analysed long-term data from a group of Adventists who have been monitored for more than 40 years. They also reviewed data from six other studies, including two in Britain and one in Germany. One of the British studies showed a 20 per cent drop in mortality among vegetarians, while the German study suggested an even greater reduction.

Although the British and German data supported the principle of reduced mortality in non-meat-eaters, it was the 7100 people in the Adventist study who were the key to obtaining long-term accurate information from men and women who had been vegetarians for a considerable length of time.

Singh says: “What we have in the Adventists is a group of people who follow the recommendations of their church and who wind up being vegetarian for a long time. That is, enough people with which to make mortality comparisons.”

The researchers were also able to distinguish between those who had been vegetarian for more than 20 years, those who had lapsed, and those who were eating little or no meat for a shorter period of time.

They found considerable differences in the lifespans of the different groups. “Survival data indicate that long-term vegetarians do experience a significant 3.6-year survival advantage over short-term vegetarians,” the report said. The average life expectancy of people who had been vegetarian for 20 years or more was 86.5 years, compared with 82.9 for the short-term vegetarians.

The next big question facing researchers is why vegetarians live so much longer. Is it because they are exposed to fewer of any negative health effects that may be associated with meat eating? Is it because they benefit from the positive health effects of eating more vegetables? Or is it simply that people who choose to be vegetarians have lifestyles that differ in other ways that favour a longer lifespan?

“We simply don’t know,” says Dr Susan Jebb, the head of nutrition research at the Medical Research Council’s human nutrition research unit in Cambridge, in Britain. “Vegetarians may be exposed to more of the beneficial effects of fruit and vegetables simply because they eat more, or the lifestyle package that often goes with being a vegetarian could play a role, too. It may well be a little bit of each.”

Singh says more work is needed to discover what could be important, but he points out that positive effects for plant foods have been found. “Among Adventists, one of the things we found was that consumption of legumes, nuts and salads seemed, in separate analyses, to show independent decreases in risk. We have additional work which suggests that use of legumes reduces risk of death. Green salad or green vegetable also seem to decrease overall risk.”

Other research suggests that the range of antioxidants that are found in the pigments of fruit and vegetables are among the most effective health-enhancing compounds in vegetables. Antioxidants help to prevent the cellular damage caused by free radicals in the body.

Researchers at Glasgow University found that some fruits and vegetables have more of one type of antioxidants — flavonols — than other crops. They have also found differences between similar fruit and vegetables. Tiny cherry tomatoes, for example, have many more of the chemicals than bigger tomatoes. Red onions are full of flavonols, while the white version has almost none.

Colour is important, too. Researchers from a number of countries say that the more vibrant the colour of the vegetable, the higher its antioxidant level.

Dr Luke Howard of Arkansas University says: “There are literally thousands of compounds in vegetables that may be health-protective, and we need to eat a wide variety. We also need to look at breeding fruits and vegetables that contain higher levels of health-protective substances.”

As is the way with these things, of course, not all the evidence supports enhanced lifespan. One British study into longevity and diet based on 4600 people found no difference.

Another difficulty is that not all those people who show great longevity are vegetarians. When Meilleur died, her title passed to a 117-year- old American woman who hated vegetables. Relatives said that she had eaten chocolate, crisps, pretzels and sweets while avoiding anything remotely resembling a vegetable.

And then there’s the strange case of Yukichi Chuganji, who inherited the mantle of the world’s oldest person in January last year, at the age of 112. He bucked the apparent trend in a big way. It isn’t just that the retired silkworm breeder from the island of Kyushu, in Japan, hated vegetables. The real blow is that one of his passions was eating meat.

- The Independent
[This message was edited Fri Dec 26 14:18:22 PST 2003 by conch5184]

well...ok...I think I'm more confused now than ever. I'm not concerned about osteoporosis. Its about the only disease that Black women aren't the lead in. Now obesity, heart disease, hypertension, HIV, breast cancer (we die from breast cancer more than any other group), diabetes and huh...well if I think of anything else I'll add it, are diseases/infections that I need to worry about.

Rhondab said:

If you don't do Atkin's at least make a conscious effort to reduce your carb intake. Eliminate sugar as much as possible. Splenda is splendid! And get more excercise. If you're worried about calcium or other vitamins and minerals, take a suppliment.

It's not that I think vegetarians cannot get all the protein they need, it's just I don't see why a well balanced diet cannot include things like lean meat. There are always pros and cons to certain products.

As far as my lifestyle goes, a vegetarian diet simple won't cut it.

BTW, I think fruits are overrated. One or two pieces of fruit a day is more than enough. Veggies are more important.

I have and am going back on the CARBOHYDRATES ADDICTS diet>> It is soo much easier than the Atkins diet. I lost like 20 lbs a couple of years ago on this diet.. It really works..
[This message was edited Fri Dec 26 17:05:33 PST 2003 by BabyCakes]

Diets come & diets go, but the TRUE way 2 go is 2 CUT DOWN & EAT IN MODERATION & EXERCISE. The heavier U R the faster U will lose it. Then U come 2 a plateau & will need 2 EAT LESS & EXERCISE more.I recently lost lots of weight & am continuing to do so. I feel great. I also want 2 B a vegetarian. I used 2 LOVE meat, but now I'd rather just eat HEALTHY & thank God I'm NOT a sweets craver. Good Luck 2 ALL U dieters!!!

1) there are significant findings to see a link between atkins and heart disease. see http://www.atkinsdietaler...sumer.html

2) most people do need to cut back on white sugars and simple carbs. they are not healthy in anywhere near the amounts americans get them; the body does need fats and sugar but not that much. what i do strongly believe to be important is a diet with 6-11 daily servings of Complex carbs (brown rice, wheat bread, etc) and a minimal amount of animal fat.

hell if you're going to try atkins you might as well at least TRY being vegetarian for six months or so First. don't forget taste buds do adapt to a new diet in about 8 weeks.

remember that colon cancer is the number three killer of americans. the less fiber you get, the more your chances of colorectal cancer.

3) apart from the 14 pounds you would probably lose through vegetarianism (and which 99 percent of doctors who are up on the research will tell you is probably the single best thing you can do for your health- unlike atkins),

be sensible in weight loss. there's a reason dieting is a huge industry: people have to keep coming back. eat a nutritionally well-balanced diet and exercise. i hate to "exercise" but i have found some things enjoyable. swimming, dance (check out the new york city ballet's book of stretches- it's awesome), getting a three-foot wide trampoline (which if i remember correctly burns as many calories as jogging but is much easier on the joints), etc. find Something you can have fun with.

4) the USDA recommends about 2 servings of fruit and 3 servings of vegetables a day. we agree, j0ey!




[5) and perhaps most importantly- speak with your physician before undergoing any dramatic dietary change! ]
[This message was edited Sat Dec 27 11:12:44 PST 2003 by conch5184]

Has anybody mentioned that the Atkins diet makes your breath stink like a putrid turd yet?

because it does! after a month or so, you might look better but you'll find people will be avoiding you at all costs.

Marrk said:

Didn't happen to me!

LittlePill said:

you can't smell your own breath!

there are three women in my office all on this damn diet, It's December, freezing cold and i have to open the damn windows to let the smell out.

" for breakfast again?"

that may or may not be beginning symptoms of gout. one of the most talked-about long term risks involved in atkins.

So there's no confusion, I'd like to clarify that I'm not talking about a vegan diet like IAmTheTouch is. I believe that dairy products are important to good health (although getting the hormone-free brands is definitely favorable).

[P.S. Whoever was talking about concern about breast cancer, the estrogen in animal products may or may not be a factor. You should look into that.

And everyone, please don't forget the low fiber intake link to colon cancer (which is the third biggest killer of Americans) ]
[This message was edited Sat Jan 3 11:53:43 PST 2004 by conch5184]

conch5184 said:

there are all kinds of variations of vegetarianism, and i agree that everybody should do whatever they feel comfortable with. i, like most vegans, was a lacto-ovo veg for many years before going vegan.