Please bear with me. I want to understand. Because it baffles me somewhat. Ive sen it in bulet time and real time..and throughout my time online I have known some pretty cool guys who were gay and have befriended them. Some very well respected and some despicable. Names will be saved for later. But they always told me…racism runs rampant in the gay community. Ive sen this in real time as well , vapors of it..I was semi shocked because I’ve always stood for non discrimination, fairness, integrity etc as much as humanly possible. Heres part of the story..please bear with me:

I attended a religion based grad school (not by choice but because it has a program that was available to me) and I’ve jeapordized my stay there for sticking up for the rights of others that are looked down upon my the background of the school etc.

I remember in class one day...a person from a different continent than I stated that “and now they have gays on television now...even ordinary television” etc. I spoke up with another person and said “Are u kidding me? Do you heart what you are saying?”

And then he began to speak of his distaste for it on television (gay programming etc) because he has a daughter and did not want her watching it etc. I said “Do u realize they said the same ting about blacks and Hispanics etc . That the same could be said for that? All u have to do is replace the word “gay” with “black” or any other group and it means the same thing. I’m not overtly patriotic but u came to this country because evidently it has opportunity... and people have rights to be what they want to be...what if u were denied for who you are ?” etc…Me and another student were very vocal during this class and the teacher sat and watched as this man tried to deliver but in the end became belittled for having this discriminatory view. No t knowing how others in the room felt about homosexuality etc BUT knowing that I was preaching acceptance for something that is rather looked down upon or at the very least hushed up, I still said it even though I could have been reported etc by those offended by gay etc. I put my future well being on the line because of something that turns my stomach—prejudice and discrimination. I did not care if someone reported me or felt I was a gay sympathiser(?) for whatever reasons...and still don’t.

And that’s how I feel...I cant feel at ease discriminating or being prejudiced against anybody. When I hear folks say “ahh fuck them ___”, I say “Ya know..all u have to do is replace that word with whom you are..and that’s how it used to be ..so how you gonna deny someone else?” etc. Its that easy to say something about someone’s culture, ethnicity etc but think about replacing whom one is being deragatory about, and put ones own being in place..

Which brings me to the querie...why…is there…racism rampant in the gay community?—specifically the gay white community...I said before I was shocked but not to overwhelmed and that was because I sort of got a heads up...from Meshell Ndege’ocello no less. She had an article in the L.A. weekly some years back where she discussed that she is not accepted as part of the gay culture ..err...mainstream gay culture. Or white gay culture . Said it doesn’t accept her so the gay rights etc fight doesn’t really speak for her per se because the feminist movement etc is largely a “white thing” so to speak.

I see some gay people clinging to those with racist views etc but decry anything that hints at homophobia…here and in the real world. Why is this. I mean is it a “IM gay but I still aint no nigger, spic…etc” type of thing? I don’t get it. Is it a “oh well, I don’t have to worry about that shit because it aint me” thing? As long as its not in my backyard thing? Maybe Im too idealistic thinking that there gotta be a utopia somewhere...but it really isn’t even that...its more of a ..how can u be down about a group etc and cling to the racist style of others , if you yourself is a person who receives deep prosecution, prejudice, discrimination etc? I don’t get it..I’m of the mind body and soul of “If you are going to hate inequality-prejudice-discrimination-failure to respect basic human rights….hate all of it. Not just what effects you.” So that’s why Im asking…the org gay mafia…just anyone gay…what’s the deal? What’s the take on this. It is really disheartening to know these things. It makes me sometimes wonder…oh well...you don’t give a damn about what happens to my kid why should I give a damn what happens to yours...but I cant be that way. I’m not wired that way (thank god or whomever, mom, dad, my maker etc).

Like I’ve said…it kind of trips me out to see this…but is that the way of the world? I am naïve maybe but help me understand the perspective. Is there a racist undertone to the gay white male world…and how do black gay males feel etc?

HELLOOO is anybody out there?

I dunno...I can't really speak to this, because I don't feel like a participant in "mainstream" gay culture. I've never really seen a lot of really blatant racism in the culture, other than perhaps the fetishization of certain races - and even then, the gay men of color tend to enable that kind of thing, because they're in a position to be seen as objects of desire.

My only real experience has been in large cities like NYC and Chicago...but I think as long as any guy of any color assimilates to whatever behaviors, looks, trends du jour are popular in mainstream gay culture, I would venture to say that there won't be a huge problem with non-acceptance.

Anxiety said:

You haven't?

It's imple rd. Gays are just like other people. Discrimination is prolly some sort of human 'nature'. I've known some Nigerians who just baffled me with their racism; while they themselves where frequently subject of it !?!?!
It seems that every (sub)culture, sect, geographical bound group or whatever it is what binds people, has a fear of anything differing from their own point of view.
Easiest, though not the best, way to deal with fear is to deny it; discriminating others.

Humans, go figure

Great post, rd, and well worth discussing.


I feel the same as you, and while I don't think that there's rampant racism in the gay community, as I haven't heard of or witnessed that many accounts of it (possibly because, like Anxiety, I don't think I'm probably considered part of the mainstream gay lifestyle and culture), when I have encountered it among gays, I've found it baffling. And I mean true, explicit redneck racism.


Ignorance is ignorance, though, I guess. Because the times I've tried to talk about it with those select few individuals, I've come out even more baffled than I was initially.


No amount of explanation and comparison between discrimination of gays and discrimination of other minorities has ever had any sway on them. They will, at best, admit that they feel bad for feeling the way they do, but I've found that discussing matters of race with anyone, people have their opinions, either way, and they stick to them, until they're confronted in a shocking, personal way with an alternative way of thinking.

Minority groups often attack other minority groups. I guess to feel better about themselves.

Cloudbuster said:

which is really freakin' assbackwards as hell... it stands to reason that if all of these various minority groups worked together, then they would have a much better chance in their fight against their oppressors... there's strength in numbers...

EllisDee said:

Indeed.

i thought the org gay mafia died right along all the "drama"?


i still dont understand why people wanted to label themselves something like that...

at anyrate, being the only queer sf'r here i'd like to share my experiences with racism...and i wouldnt really even call it that, its more like selective segregation and closeminded prejudices...

growing up in buttfuck stockton (which is considered the arm-pit of california) dating amoungst different races (errr, cultures, err ethnicity?) was common practice...you think a guy's cute, you ask him out...no drama...

in the bay area you get a lot of this, "oh, your cute but...i dont date black men"...in stockton there is one gay bar where hicks, thugs and fieldworkers all co-exist...in sf, you have your latin themed bars...your one black bar, your club asia for those who are asian and the white men who love them...and then you have Castro...The most "gap"affied and scaries street on the planet... Castro is kinda like "Friends" played out in reality...sad!!!

whats the solution to selective segregation? i dont know...is it hate? no...just ignorance...so i contemplate moving back to the arm-pit of california...wait, let me say...now that i live in oakland...oaklands kinda cool...its got a great multi-cultural vibe to it...havent been here long enought to pass judgement though...hopefully its not as segegrated as the rest of the bay...

Reading this amazes me. You would think after one has caught so much shit they would be more understanding to anothers plight. This shit must run really deep in the veins. What is even sadder is they usually use the black experince as an example to make their political progress?










Can't relate edit
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 7:21:07 PST 2003 by CtheUncanny]

Writing in the mid-20th century, James Baldwin wrote this essay called "The Price of the Ticket" where he wrote that part of the immigrant experience of becoming "American" included accepting the baggage of bigotry that was part and parcel to that American identity.

Specifically he argued that historically European immigrant groups could come to America and shed their ethnic identity (Irish, Italian, Jewish, Polish, etc.) and they became "white" / "mainstream American" by buying into all that whiteness entailed, including constructing an "Other" against which to frame "white" identity. That "Other" in this case was "Black" which facilitated the existence of "White" identity because whiteness could be everything that was not Black and all that the stereotypes of Blackness connoted.

While it is a little bit different today, some of this still comes into play for other immigrant groups as well, even some who would be considered "Black." Illustrating this phenom, there is a running joke that upon coming to America the first word that everyone learns is "Nigger."

Many folks take great pains to distance themselves from Black Americans because in part it helps them position themselves economically and politically as "not one of those people." It's the price of the ticket to establishing what some would consider a respectable space for themselves in American political culture. "Don't group us with them, we are different from them, etc."

This problem has plagued relations between Black Americans and other Black ppl from Africa and the Caribbean, so it would not surprise me that it would plague the relations across other "minority" relations.

It goes both ways of course... the recent flag waving and anti-Arab sentiment while not as widespread in the Black community as the rest of the country, still had its share... because in part it provided a rare opportunity for Black people to be seen and identified with the rest of America--which for some is a desirable yet elusive goal.

In terms of Black-Gay community political relations I see some of these same issues coming into play. For gay white men--to the degree that they are marginalized from white America, allying themselves with another marginalized group only heightens their estrangement from the political mainstream. On the other hand, highlighting racial identity de-emphasizes the straight-gay tensions while maintaining the "white" pass. "Hey we may be gay, but at least we are not one of them." The price of the ticket.

On the other hand, I do not sense the Black community's tensions with the gay community to be necessarily an attempt to be more American than white gays by highlighting sexual identity differences. For the Black community the tension does seem to be rooted in the moralistic traditions of the Church, as well as the political and economic attacks on black masculinity that push those expressions of masculinity into cultural expressions that refuse to grant any open or public space to homo-anything.

This is generally speaking of course in terms of collective group identity and relations. There are of course individuals who refused to pay the price of the ticket.

There are some other issues as well, in terms of the objectification of black men as hypermasculine phalluses in some gay culture that only feeds racist stereotypes, ignorance about each other's plight, etc.

To bring it all home, I have often been disappointed at this site to see some of the past racist and race-baiting posts not only go unchallenged, but see the offender openly celebrated or defended; yet the silence is broken should a hint of homophobia be expressed. Guess we got folks here at the org who purchased their tickets too.

price of the edit.
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 7:59:52 PST 2003 by NuPwrSoul]

great essay there, Nu. one could further illustrate the constructing of an "other" to fear and marginalize with the treatment the Irish received in America at one time, even by other immigrant groups. for that matter, Italians, and Asians, etc., all looking down on one another, perpetuating the same racist culture at the microcosm level.




as for the part at the end that you highlighted, i'd like to say in defense of myself, since i've often been labelled as one of those who defended the "race-baiters", whether you were including me as well, that i don't jump into the homophobia debates either.


in both the race-baiting and homophobia threads, my arguments have been on a meta level. arguing about the argument, and responding to the reactions on both sides (in the race and sexuality knock-down drag-outs), rather than defending, per se, or attacking someone for their views.

NuPwrSoul said:

I have heard Somoli immigrants tell me this is true. Upon their entry into this country, they are shown negative video tapes depicting Black Americans as racist slanted stereotypes...Divide & Conquer. I used to wonder why they seemed so distant, but now I know why...they've been brainwashed.

Headshake edit
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 8:22:10 PST 2003 by Blackcat]

Blackcat said:

yeah...there have been some instances at high schools here in mpls where there have been fights between blacks and somalis. it's a damn shame too, if they're bein brainwashed like that.

AaronUniversal said:

Thanks.



Precisely. David Roediger has written tons on this. Check out some of his recent stuff here:

http://www.history.uiuc.e...ediger.htm

or here

http://www.frontlist.com/author/106939

His most popular book is "The Wages of Whiteness" (that whole price of the ticket thing)




Well yes, you at least you are consistent by staying at the meta level. I have at times disagreed with that approach cuz I think it's sometimes important to weigh in with some value judgment. Thanks for the clarification.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Yes of course it's a dead end game for everyone involved cuz the immigrants need to draw from our experiences and civil rights gains in America--when African immigrant Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times here in New York... it wasn't cuz he was from Africa... his community had never really dealt with this issue so they had to turn to civil rights leadership to cope.

And from the American side, there is something we can learn from immigrants who are coming from a country where there is majority Black government and business ownership. Even with issues of corruption where it may exist, there is something about growing up where your leadership is Black that removes the glass ceiling from our imaginations of what is possible.

Handclapsfingasnapz said:

Just go to one and ask them, the younger ones -- they will tell you.

NuPwrSoul said:

So true, and the funny thing is, the corrupted governing entities are fighting hard to maintain this wedge, therefore awareness among all oppressed people is of the utmost urgency.

NuPwrSoul said:

cool, i'll check those links out.




I agree to a certain extent, but enough people weigh in on the topics with value judgements, that adding fuel to the fire, or piling on is utterly useless, as the last several months here will bear out. When there is an opportunity to take a moment and ask the question "is this really racist? is this really homophobic?" to get people to actually look at what is said (including the intent behind it) and ask themselves if it's a knee-jerk reaction to say that it is or if it really is appropriately labelled as such is what I will add.


I assume, perhaps naively, that everyone involved in these arguments are making their comments in order to broaden the minds of others. That's not always the case, I know, but it is hopefully the overall intent to do so in these seemingly brutal and pointless screaming matches that we orgers have enjoyed lately. My own way of doing the same, is to point out things and ask if they are what we're saying they are. The answer can be YES THEY ARE, or NO THEY AREN'T. The personal conclusion that each of us comes to is probably different, but I feel it's often important to at least ask it. To stand back and look at it before jumping headlong into debates that go round and round in circles and never end up resolved or changing anyone's mind.

AaronUniversal said:

I used to believe this at a time when my posts were as long as my first post in this thread. I am not so sure anymore

And sometimes it is sufficient to call a spade a spade and a muthafucka a muthafucka and leave it at that, esp when everyone knows the deal and its a friggin pink elephant in the room that everyone is tryna finesse and dance around.

NuPwrSoul said:

I completely understand the sentiment. I used to post some long-ass shit too, seemingly in vain

AaronUniversal said:

or vanity?

sosgemini said:

sure, why not. i guess i do feel better about myself when i write well thought-out posts.



so to your intended zinger

Blackcat said:

I work with a lot of Somalis, and attend community meetings in their children's school systems. We recently had a good presentation about this very issue. To a large extent, the problems between some black Africans and black Americans is about the media, and how America exports its racism to other countries.

When they arrive here, refugees aren't shown secret racist videos on how nasty and poor and criminally minded black Americans are (they ARE shown how to use the stoves, toilets, how to shop, etc.). But they've already heard certain biased information back home, and when they arrive here they especially observe and respond to negative media messages about the black American culture. Because they are new and trying to achieve economic security, they tend to try to distance themselves from the oppressed and economically disadvantaged populations.

Somali youth will also tell you that their misconceptions are furthered when some black American youth call them Tarzan or Kinta Kunte or joke about them living in the jungle...this causes a lot of fights at school. It's a vicious cycle of misconceptions.

I'll try to dig up some websites/online articles later...
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 9:02:42 PST 2003 by AnotherLoverToo]

As always, NuPwrSoul graces us with history and wisdom. Thanks again.

I’ll chime in…

I’m a gay black man, and I find blatant racism not vastly, but definitely more rampant in the homosexual “community” than vice versa.

I wish I had a dime for all the times men of all ethnicities have been all over me in anonymous online chatrooms, for example, because they loved my sensibilities, articulation, interests, academic and professional experience, etc. I’ve been asked out on dates, fixed up with close friends, etc., all based solely on the content of my (cyber) character. Nice, eh? And then I mentioned my ethnicity…

Usually, it all went out the window there -- sometimes with a pseudo-apology; other times with a complete abrupt end to the exchange. What’s really amusing, though, is that often I caught these same guys later suggesting they’d again like to meet me after having changed their screennames and receiving my photograph under a new, unassumed moniker. When I called them on it, like clockwork, the stock comment was “Duh… Well, you’re not like most black guys.” I kid you not. And needless to say, those guys got no more of my time.

To some extent, I think this simply demonstrates the extent to which people of all groups – even those who have bitterly suffered it – are never above inflicting bigotry and discrimination themselves. I’ve certainly been called a “faggot” by other black people. Perhaps it’s a universal human flaw; perhaps it’s something actually more present in groups that have suffered oppression. (i.e., some learned defense of elevating themselves by trodding on others.)

On the other hand, one theory – a criticism, actually – I have regarding the gay male community specifically (and I’ll no doubt offend some fellow gay orgers. My [somewhat] apologies ahead of time) is that we are extraordinarily visually oriented and gullible to notions of what is “fashionable,” “luxurious,” “instantly gratifying,” “aesthetically best,” “fabulous.” It’s a sick stereotype, but I think it comes from some seed of truth. With that, like a BMW, a lakefront condo, good Italian shoes, a full-bodied Merlot or an exotic pet, we too often pick our friends, lovers, even neighbors, based on vain, superficial material notions. They’re essentially trophies before much else, and since white men have been sold for centuries as the “top of the line” where males are concerned, it follows that men of other ethnicities must endure declining ranks among the hierarchy of human value – with the darkest of us falling lowest, except in instances, as Anxiety pointed out, that we are "fetishized." Of course, this dynamic isn’t one exclusive to the gay community, but we seem to make an art of everything.

Here I must acknowledge that 1) certainly not all gay men behave this way (I know many); and 2) there are obviously experiences other than mine. But the above is a pattern and theory I’ve personally recognized over years of my own observation.
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 10:57:27 PST 2003 by Lammastide]

here's a question, taking into account comments by SkletonKee and Lammastide:





is there a difference between racism and just not being attracted to certain races?



love is color blind, but is physical attraction?






.
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 9:04:54 PST 2003 by AaronUniversal]

AaronUniversal said:

There's absolutely a difference. I, for example, think most Asian men I've seen are gorgeous, but I'm not physically attracted to them.

Where I think the line gets blurred is when a person precludes you from being a Platonic friend -- or merely continuing what had been an amazingly thriving conversation that they admittedly enjoyed -- simply because they find out you're not a given ethnicity or race.

I've got a couple more improtant examples in answering your question, Aaron, but I wanted to offer this quick response. I'll add more in a bit.
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 10:11:17 PST 2003 by Lammastide]

Lammastide said:

thanks. but about your middle paragraph... i've noticed in online encounters over the years, that if you're having a gay old time on the net or on the phone, and, i dunno, you suddenly see a picture of them, or they say something you don't click with... a lot of them end seemingly in mid-stream, so i don't think that's indicative of race. from reading what you said previously, i know that some of your encounters ended because of it, but it's been my experience on both the giving and receiving end that a lot of what could end up friendly, if not romantic, relationships end, because one or both people are looking for a hookup or are looking for a romantic relationship, so the first roadblock is where it stops, even if one of them might want to go on just being friends.

AaronUniversal said:

You're absolutely right. And if 1) I hadn't been routinely careful with these guys to find out and communicate what both our intentions were quite early; and 2) this had been the case with, say, only a few men, I wouldn't suspect anything otherwise. Sheer numbers and recurring patterns speak, though. And if race was not a factor, why would they come back after having seen my picture, telling me I was now somehow the exception to their "most black men are different" rule?

As it were, not all my experiences here have been limited to Internet experiences...


Story One:
There was one guy I’d known for about six months. He was a Jewish neighbor of mine, and had some bizarre obsession with black men. He would routinely invite me over to “top” him, and I always rebuffed his advances, even though he was really, really attractive.

One day I engaged him in a conversation about his obsession, and he couldn’t really articulate what he felt. He told me, though, that while he loved being reemed by black guys, because they were powerful and well-endowed, he would never have a relationship with one. What the hell is that all about?

Story Two:
I dated a white guy four years older than me for about two years. We went through thick and thin. I helped him with law school papers (he was a poor writer and not very sharp legally), psychological fallout from being molested as a kid and physically abused by his family, feelings of alienation from being closeted, etc. Several times – perhaps in jest I now wonder -- he asked me to marry him, and even took me three states away to meet his family, whom he warmed me were virulent racists. He said it was the first time he’d taken a guy home. (Incidentally, his father seemed to really like me, and though he didn’t really know his son was gay, he asked me to take care of him back in Cleveland and told me to come visit anytime... with or without his son.)

Well, through conversations with this guy, I learned he harbored some of the most disgusting ideas and feelings about black people I’d ever heard face-to-face. He told me that black men usually smelled funny; that he doesn’t like black hair and features (my dad was Irish, so my hair is loosely curled and some of my features are more angular), that if I ever changed my name to some Islamic or African name, I’d be “cut off,” and that my daughter’s eyes should be blue. Now I could take this type of thing from some ignorant backwoods hick I’d known only about 10 minutes, but from a grad school-educated upstate New Yorker I’d known for two years? No way.

Epilogue
…Incidentally, I later found out the guy from story one had been asking for sexual details about me from the story two guy for about a year. I don’t know the details of their conversations, but it pissed me to no end that I’d be the guinea pig in either of their racial experiments.
[This message was edited Mon Nov 17 10:29:10 PST 2003 by Lammastide]