I occassionally attend my ex-wife's church... mostly out of some sense of community with the family (with whom I'm still on really good terms) and to instill some sense of tradition in my 2-year-old. Afterwards, her family has made a bit of a ritual out of going to Sunday dinner. Her rich daddy pays for everyone.

Though I've never been a regular, lately I've stopped going to their church altogether, as I simply can no longer stomach the whole gay=abomination party line after a lifetime of being hammered with it. I haven't made a fuss. Haven't asked anyone else to stop going. Never leveled any theological challenges. I simply have decided to stay at home on Sundays.

Anyway, today my ex-father-in-law invites me to dinner with the family and during the course of the outing tells me in their trademark tongue-in-cheek, passive-aggressive, joking way that he won't be paying for any more of my dinners if I don't go to church. He joked, but I know he sorta meant it. This, despite the fact that: A) I never ask to go to dinner with them; B) I don't even enjoy going to Red Lobster (the friggin' White Castle of sea food) every other Sunday; and C) I always offer to pay for myself, anyway! I couldn't decide whether to get angry or bust out laughing inside.

Who the (truffle) does he think he is?! And where in either Biblical Testament is the link between my piety and my father-in-law's dispensation of free dinners mentioned?

I have zero problem with no more free greasy fish dinners. But it amazes me how arrogant and controlling some people assume they can be... especially where another person's personal spiritual beliefs are regarded.

1) Damn, sorry to hear this. That's pretty shity. Maybe U should tell them how you feel.

2) U can say fuck (we won't tell)

CAMILLE4U said:

I'll certainly tell him when next he brings it up. I like the guy, but they all can be the biggest jerks at times.

Pardon for asking (I don't know everone that well here) but are U gay? U mentioned about going to church and being fed up of the gay issue. Is it because it effects you personally or are U just sick of hearing about it?

Damn, that's pretty truffled-up, Lammastide! As if you can be bribed into a belief-system! ( though I guess that's exactly how relgious indoctrination happens as a child: a person is given rewards for memorizing Bible verses, for conformity of thought, etc.)

If I were you, I'd either not go anymore, or quietly start paying for your own meals from now on in order to not feel obliged in any manner.
[This message was edited Sun Nov 16 16:34:13 PST 2003 by AnotherLoverToo]

AnotherLoverToo said:

It's probaly because the old man wants his family close? (from how it sounds)

CAMILLE4U said:

Yes, I'm gay. The whole party line bugs me on both accords. I know better than to go to that church, but I try to out of some bizarre respect.

...Increasingly of late, I'm having trouble offering respect where I certainly get none in return.
[This message was edited Sun Nov 16 21:22:55 PST 2003 by Lammastide]

AnotherLoverToo said:

Yeah. Smart, ALT. I probably won't go that church anymore at all, except on holidays. And I'll definitely insist on paying for myself from now on.

CAMILLE4U said:

No, cause Lammastide is still going to dinner with them and spending time with his family. He's just not spending an hour in church with them. It sounds more like his ex's father is worried that L is challenging the message of the church, and he's trying to bring him back into the status quo by showing him what kind of family "punishment" awaits him if he doesn't return to the fold...

CAMILLE4U said:

Oh yes. He totally means well, I'm sure. I just wonder at what point does he stop to think about how the whole affair makes me feel.

It would be one thing if he grew up in some isolated, backwards village, but he was a total civil rights crusader in the 60s.

AnotherLoverToo said:

EXACTLY! I can understand him from a certain standpoint, but where has he been named the dispenser of earthly hell/purgatory?

Lammastide said:

That makes sence. That's such a shame. My faith is very important to me. Truth is I'm not a nice person, If I'm honest I'm dirty, U know. Perverted and intrested in stuff that isn't healthy. Anyway my point is, the church welcomes me but your probably a purer soul being a father and everything. Also I take church for grantage. I've not been for a few years now, I really should go. On second thoughts, after the scandel in my town right now I darn't show my face. Nothing I've done (my family are very embaresing and some shit been kicked up recently)

AnotherLoverToo said:

Actually that makes more scence. Sorry, I understand now. I guess I'm a bit nieve.

Lammastide said:

It's called patriarchy, darling

Seriously, though, he's got the money and (in his mind) the power and right to affect lives. This is my guess, as I don't know the guy. He probably thinks of himself as quite loving, but if someone messes with his comfort-zone: watch out!

CAMILLE4U said:

Does the scandal involve you?

Lammastide said:

No. My sister has done / is doing something really stupid, and my dad seems to think it's ok. It happens in full view of the church every Sunday. I hate to think what the people are saying. It reflects badly on me because I'm part of the family, but what can I do?
[This message was edited Sun Nov 16 16:49:05 PST 2003 by CAMILLE4U]

CAMILLE4U said:

Well, I wish you well.

Cheers. You to.

CAMILLE4U said:

Camille4u, that's very strong wording to use about yourself. Dirty? Stuff that isn't healthy? If you don't hurt or upset people, you ain't dirty.

daned said:

Cheers. Thanks man.

I supose I'm not a bad guy in the scence that I don't hurt people, hate minority groups or anything like that. I just meant in perspective. Lammastide could be more of a model christian than me yet he's the one that the church isn't excepting simply due to his sexuality. I'm not saying I shouldn't be either, I think the church should welcome anyone who wishes to worship God.

CAMILLE4U said:

...Well, except that I'm not Christian. (I've just always gone to Christian churches.)

But thanks. I know what you mean.
[This message was edited Sun Nov 16 17:32:24 PST 2003 by Lammastide]

This is a very complicated situation becuase of your 2 year old. Is there a possiblity you could invite them to your home and make food for them ~ sort of change the playing field while still keeping the connections intact? Are there other things you could do with your ex~wife's family to create the traditions and sense of belonging for your child?

Lammastide, I don't think you should let people dissuade you from worshipping God. What you do is between you and God. Even if you were doing something wrong, you wouldn't be in an exclusive club -- gay and straight people are equally guilty in their sins. And people with muddy feet have no right to tell you to take a bath, if you get my drift.

Be well.

namepeace said:

But why should he go to a house of worship where they attack his way of loving and being loved? He can find somewhere that makes him feel more welcome, which does not appear to be the place his ex and her family attend.

bratchildsfriend said:

Oh yes, we still do tons of things together and remain on good terms. I hope I haven't given the impression they're totally exiling me.

This particular situation just bugs me because it involves something as deeply personal as faith. And I certainly haven't done anything similar to strong arm them.

namepeace said:

Believe me, they're nowhere near dissuading me from my spiritual path. Aside from this matter, my personal tendencies have been to acknowledge the Divine more solitarily, or in less traditional "congregations," anyway. I've visited their church not so much for my own benefit, but for that of family ties.

What's interesting is, though I don't share their religious path, I'm far more a student of theology than any of them has ever been -- and on occassion I still school them on certain things pertaining to Christian history, doctrine, scripture, etc. And I've even been respectful enough not to inject anything that might be called "liberal theological revisionism" in what I've taught them. Oh well.

Anyway, I agree with you on all counts, namepeace. Maybe I should give you my father-in-law's cell phone number, so you can remind him of this stuff.

In the Bible, several people wouldn't take favors from others just so no one could say they owed them anything. Check out Abraham with Abimelech (twice). And I don't think it's biblical to put someone in position like that... so what? So you can have some kind of power or control over them? Very sad.

Anyway, don't let it affect your view on what you know is right. Don't let it keep you from Jesus. For one thing, check this: Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. So don't get hung up on that too much either. God knows the heart. Trust in Him that He sees you for who you are. Just keep loving Him and seeking Him.

Heck, if I were in your shoes, I'd most likely choose to go to a different church and then go out somewhere else for Sunday lunch/dinner -- if they want to join you, then it's on them. Get outside of that control so you can truly appreciate biblical principles in action.

Peace! By the way, props to you for thinking about and wanting to do some good for your 2-year old!

edit: typo
[This message was edited Sun Nov 16 21:18:49 PST 2003 by Jasziah]

AnotherLoverToo said:

My point was, he shouldn't let a few bad apples discourage him from visiting the orchard again. But you're right, maybe he could find a friendlier "orchard," so to speak.

Lammastide said:

All that is good to hear. And as for your f-i-l's cellie, keep that in the pocket for a while . . .