I've just watched a harrowing but necessary documentary about FGM on children in Africa.
Having read Alice Walkers fantastic Possessing the Secret Of Joy, i already knew of the archaic practices of this so called "tradition"
it galls me that its women who will insist on the practice for the sake of the family name.
anyway...i could go on.
i read another book on the matter a few years ago about a girl who fled to the states and won a land mark ruling to be able to claim asylum for reason of sexual persecution and female rights.(after suffering many years in jail due to no one believing her) I was wondering if anyone else had read this book or knows of the case as i'm trying to locate the title etc.
i'm not sure if this is in the right forum but i ain't getting political ir religious here
thanks.

that is a part of your sig right?

i just noticed after all this time

I dont know the book or the case bu tthe femme mutilation thing in Africa is horrifying and I saw a docu on it that gave me nitemares.

AnotherLoverToo can tell you some stories about her clients.. Would break your heart.

sag10 said:

Yes...having sex and then giving birth are torture for most of these women. I just about passed out just looking at pictures.

I've read stories about women being sewn up and not having the sutures removed until they were married. The stories about mutilations are horrendous, one of the reasons they gave for justifying this practice was that it made their wives fatihful, talk about insecurity.


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[This message was edited Mon Aug 18 20:07:09 PDT 2003 by sinisterpentatonic]

sinisterpentatonic said:

more proof men are evil

Sweeny79 said:

Women are angels.

sinisterpentatonic said:

Of course

I'm evil, but not that evil.

shausler said:

you know I to have always wanted to look like a 12yr old girl.

Actually, the practice is now so ancient that it's the female elders who perform the cutting, etc. (I refuse to call it surgery when there are no medically trained people, clean instruments or painkillers). The practice originated in wanting to keep women from enjoying sex (and straying from her husband), but has now become something women do to each other.

That's always how a dominant group subjugates the lower group--make them hate themselves and hurt each other, so they can no longer accuse you of wrongdoing.

I read something really cool in Marie Claire magazine. They're trying to educate the men of these countries, so they go around and show them movies of the procedure being done. It makes the men cringe and feel sick...shock value! Maybe this type of education will help change occur with the guys, too?

AnotherLoverToo said:

I saw something with Diane Sawyer about this. They showed a videotape of a young girl being mutilated to a group of American doctors (it was so horrible) and the men were crying and the women were like "whatever" They showed the tape to let these doctors know they may get some patients who have had this done and they may request being sown back up after giving birth or whatever other thing that would cause them to be opened. The men said theyt would refuse to sow a woman back, while the women daoctors were like "If that's what she wants, who am I to interfere." Sometimes, women have less compassion than men in certain situations

Janfriend said:

watching the documentary...we saw a group of female elders mutilating two 8 year old girls. it was horrific...however i don't think they did the full cut as the girls were able to walk staight away. the elders had been pressured, by the dad of the kids to only cut a bit. They would have preferred to carry outthe whole procedure. the children were then given gifts. The reason the older woman gave was for "obedience" and "control of sexual urges" and "cleanliness".

i think this is now out of the control of men but in the minds of female elders.
it is changing though.

i really need to find that book i originally spoke about...its a facsinating story of courage and survivial of this young girl.

I know that it's not at the same level but 1000's of men are circumcised (mutilated?) against their will at the request of their parents, yet this practice is permitted for reasons or religion and "hygiene".


I saw the shocking documentary too, this is totally different I appreciate but I thought I would add a bit of fuel to the fire of discussion.

I read the Alice Walker book several years ago. I'm a huge fan of Alice's and I love all her books. "Possessing the secret of joy" almost broke my heart to read. I think this practice is barbaric and it only adds to my long list of why I hate religion and religious practices. These poor girls don't understand what is happening to them and they must be in great pain too. Could you imagine going through life like that? It's so cruel and it makes me sick.

PREDOMINANT said:

feale circumcision is a very different practice to male circumcision. the removal of the foreskin does not affect sexual feeling and cause pain during sex.

circumcision on a women is female genital mutilation. the removal of the clitoris and the sewing up of the "holes" is to remove sexual desire. the pain cannot be compared.

i am sure circumcision for the man is a religious issue cos the female practice sure ain't. and usually for men, as far as i know, this happens when they are babies. the trauma felt will be very different to an 8 year old girl. there was a girl in the documentary who broke my heart after she spoke a poem she had written after the event. she blamed her mother for the pain she endured.

Shit... you guys are making me post.

BUT

Some women want to go through the procedure. It is part of their culture and they do not feel like "women" without it. Then the touchy question comes into play of who are we to tell them what is right, what they can and cannot do?

By all means I am not saying I agree with this. I'm just playing devil's advocate... giving ya'll food for thought.

I'm outtie.

msserendipity said:

I'm going to split hairs here and ask who exactly you are referring to, as you would be surprised at how many cases of female genital mutilation do indeed have to do with cultural and/or religious beliefs.

This topic is so heartbreaking...I've seen documentaries and read many articles about this. I only hope that through education and the passage of time that this butchery passes into history.

Another horrific side to this is that when the elders do this, they usually bind the girl's legs together afterward, as a way to keep the stitches from being torn. Infection sets in, and many girls die from the infection, or are so ill and have so much damage that they are "unsuitable" for marriage. In some cultures, the practice extends to after having sex, the women are sewn up again, as the husband likes the "tightness". Often if the women do not agree to this, or they have broken the stitches (so they are not tight), they can be accused of adultery and killed, or ostracized and thrown out of their communities. And, in most of what I have read, it is a woman who always does the mutilation to the other young girls. In that Marie Claire article, when the men saw what was happening, the groom whose soon to be wife said she would not go through with it agreed with her. The two families were very angry with them, but the couple wore some kind of sign on their necks stating they would not go through that torture, and hundreds of people showed up (young people no less) wearing signs around their necks in agreement and solidarity. SILENCE is a killer in so many ways.

Natsume said:

culture is VERY different to religion. ppl get the two mixed up far too often
FGM is a culteral tradition.

msserendipity said:

Eeerm, yea it does. Clearly not pain (by the time the wound has healed there should be no pain) but sensitivity and sexual sensation is "significantly" reduced for those who are circumcised.

I was just trying to make the point that we see something as unusual or "mutilating" and it horrifies us when there are accepted practices that are in theory not that far removed and we don't even bat an eyelid.

I believe that whatever the practice, be it religious or cultural it should be up to the individual what he or she does with their body.

PREDOMINANT said:

i only wish it was up to the individual

children who have run away have been caught and mutilated on the spot. its about family honour...not choice.

msserendipity said:

Me too, the program was very saddening. I just added my because it reminded me of the last programme that infuriated me about taking such liberties: An episode of Horizon on Briss and circumcision!!

PREDOMINANT said:

i appreciate everyones 2 cents.

Natsume said:

They want it done only because they are taught that is has to be done and that they have to. I don't see how anyone can possibly think it;s right except an insecure man and a brainwashed woman

Natsume said:

It's not religious at all