Natsume said:

Good points, Natsume...

This ritual is primarily done now to ensure that a woman makes a good marriage. In the countries where it's performed, marriage is just about the only way a woman can survive, since she doesn't work outside of the home or earn money. Luckily, more and more women and men are realizing how barbaric and unnecessary the custom really is and some governments are banning it (though in the more rural areas, it's more likely to still be occuring)

(Damn, I'm in Professor Carrie Mode again! )

AnotherLoverToo said:

for once the law is on the side of the female. its the only way this is going to stop. it is worse for the mother/father to be jailed then to have their daughter "uncut"

Janfriend said:

Actually, it is religious. In most primitive cultures almost everything is religion related, and certainly these kinda practices. Male circumcision is also religion related, although no longer in all cases these days. Now it's plain mutilation.

SpcMs said:

There is no faith that I know of that suggests female circumcision. Jewish and Christian faiths do suggest male circumcision for cleanliness. A clitoris and a penis are not the same

PREDOMINANT said:

I totally agree with you. Male circumcision may not be as brutal as female, and it is done under more sanitary conditions these days, but it's still wrong. It's just a wrong that is acceptable in our culture. Just as female mutilation is acceptable in some other cultures. Cultures can be wrong.

Janfriend said:

Clitoris and penis are exactly the same (or as close to the same as you can get between sexes) The Glans of the penis and the clitoris both originate from the same organ during development. Both are highly vascular, very sensitive and are responsible for the majority of sexual stimulation.

Janfriend said:

Well, how familiar are you with the tons of religions and gods that you can find in Africa?

tackam said:

Absolutely. It blows my mind that otherwise liberal-thinking individuals living in America think that male circumcision is an acceptable practise. It's an appalling thing to do to a child, for any reason religious or otherwise. I guess it was some kind of fad in the US even for non-Jewish people?

Actually I heard this topic discussed in a chatroom once... what particularly made me laugh was moronic American women who said "I'd never date a guy who wasn't circumcised". Great, so you insist upon males mutilating their genitalia to better please your warped sense of aesthetics, but still find time to complain about the "pressures of society on women" to be slim, fit and healthy

And before anyone comes back with an equally vapid "but it's cleaner" comment, I think you'll find that actually washing yourself regularly is a better way to manage your personal hygiene, as opposed to chopping bits off... hehe.

AnotherLoverToo said:

Yes, and this is the biggest difference between male circumcison and female mutilation...
Men who are circumcised, although their sensitivity may be reduced (haven't heard that one myself, but for the benefit of the doubt), don't go though TORTURE while having sex or procreating. What we are talking about is the female equivilent of someone chopping off a man's penis with an unsanitary blade with no pain medication and then sewing up the wound with thorns. These women will NEVER have pleasure from sex and it is more than just the absense of pleasure...it's TORTURE each time they allow their husbands to use their bodies.
There is a BIG difference between western male circumcision and female mutilation.

ian said:

'Moronic American women'? Haven't you forgotten about 'moronic' jewish women around the world?

PREDOMINANT said:

Yes, however, the clitoris is smaller and has a much higher number of nerve endings (is even more sensitive) than the glans. Also, female "circumcision" often involves more than just the clitoris being removed--it involves the inner and outer labia (lips) being removed and sometimes the vagina being sewn to the point that there is only enough opening to allow a vaginal blood flow...

A female circumcision is much more akin to chopping off the entire head of the penis, not just the foreskin.

But I don't want this to turn into a "which is worse" conversation--they're both medically unnecessary and painful, to say the least.

AnotherLoverToo said:

Thank you...this was my point too. Both are medically unnecessary, but they are very different.

No one ever said they wee the same, even when I raised the issue of circumcision I made a point of saying that the link was tenuous. I just think that the shock value of hearing about female mutilation is made worse because it is unknown to us. Imagine the same African tribe watching a documentary on western male circumcision. They would probably be having an equally enthusiastic discussion about how in the western world they chop pieces of the men’s genitalia off, how unnecessary.

For the record they don’t use anaesthetic for a western male circumcision!

PREDOMINANT said:

Read the posts again, please. It's not just 'shock value' that makes this procedure horrifying.

PREDOMINANT said:

They have been using anesthetic, actually, usually in the form of a topical gel that numbs the area...

((Our OB/GYN uses it when she performs them, and I have a list of others in the area who do.))

applekisses said:

I love the way people try their hardest to take offense to something before they even read it properly.

If you read my post, you'll see I was referring to some very specific American women that I encountered, in a chatroom, that were indeed "moronic". Any inferences you may draw from that are your own

And I feel that I've stated my views on the matter very clearly. I believe the practice is unacceptable, regardless of the reasons (religious or otherwise).

ian said:

Then why didn't you say the moronic women in the chatroom?

applekisses said:

I did, really. You misinterpreted my words. Your problem. Anyway now I have clarified my statements for you and resolved your confusion, such pedantry can be dropped and we can get back to the topic of the thread.

applekisses said:

I know, I have read the whole thread, saw the documentary, been to a couple of talks and read articles (I am sure I am digging a deeper hole for myself) but I have never said female mutilation is a great thing, it is an unforgivable practice. I just wanted to make people see that there are some pretty awful things that are similar (not more awful, or less awful, or the same) that go on in the western world, and no-one says much about them.

In any situation it has to be wrong to take away a piece of a human being without their consent.

Anotherlovertoo: Really? I didn't know (apologies) I bet the poor little buggers still cry though

ian said:

We're going to continue to disagree about this...so, let's just drop it. I see that you've made a blanket statement and you see it differently. But, it actually fits with other 'blanket' comments from you in the past.
I'll leave it at that.

ian said:

Oh, Ian..stop editing your posts to include your condescending comments.

Come here...let me kiss your bald head...

hug&kiss edit
[This message was edited Thu Aug 21 8:55:34 PDT 2003 by applekisses]

PREDOMINANT said:

this is not a recent issue...it has been going on for a long time. the only difference is that it is being picked up by the western media. its not about shock value...its basic human rights. yep there are many other causes out there just as brutal...but as a woman...FGM has been an issue that i personally have taken on. just as the effect of the women suffering for decades under the Taliban regime (until the west finally decided it was time to do something.)
we all have cause...female human rights is mine.

Not to worry, there are lots of non-moronic American women who would much prefer an uncircumcized man (or at the very least, not give it a thought if the man she loved wasn't). There are also lots of us who aren't circumcizing our sons anymore, too! We more than make up for the American morons in the chatroom

Enough of the male vs. female dynamic, please? I have a feeling that msserendipity never meant for this to be a competition, just to raise awareness and voice her concerns.

AnotherLoverToo said:

You're just awesome...

Sorry msserendipity...

AnotherLoverToo said:

did any of you know that female circumcision was performed in America as well?

I read an article once several years ago about women who had their clitoris' removed because they masterbated as children and were considered "oversexed". I will look it up and post it.

I too read Alice Walker's masterpiece a long time ago ((early 90's) and that made me research the topic. I was and still am horrified by the practice and was shocked to know that some American parents gave consent to their doctors to perform these surgeries on their children.

here is something:

The American and British medical professions have in the past practiced FGM to varying degrees. There are reports of clitoridectomies having been performed as recently as the 1950s, to cure nymphomania and melancholia in girls. In the nineteenth century both clitoridectomies and female castration (removal of the ovaries) were practiced by British and American physicians, as cures for melancholia, masturbation, nymphomania, hysteria, lesbianism, and epilepsy. The American medical profession stopped performing clitoridectomies decades ago, only to find itself today confronting the practice in patients from cultures that perform FGM.

applekisses said:

Firstly, I'll ignore that childish insult regarding "blanket comments" because I'm really not interested in engaging in that kind of nonsense with you.

Secondly, there is nothing to disagree on. You misunderstood what I said, and I have now clarified what I thought I said quite clearly but obviously not clearly enough for you.

If you re-read the original comment I made, you may ask yourself why I would even mention the chatroom at all if I was attempting to make a blanket statement. Furthermore, feel free to actually respond to what I said with some point of your own, or at least something that isn't this tedious, pedantic nitpicking and wilful misinterpretation of a simple comment.

Further questions about the way I use the English language may be addressed to me by Orgnote.

ian said:

Yes, SIR!
Now, did you read my other post?

AnotherLoverToo said:

I don't doubt it AnotherLoverToo, and I'm glad to hear it. It is a most peculiar fad though, with circumcision taking on a more secular form, almost as a fashion accessory. Worthy of discussion, I felt, since we were discussing the barbaric practise of female circumcision.