In honor of Supa I am going to ask you to analyze the dream that I had last night
It was so interesting that it made me wake up late...

It was a beautiful sunny, but hazy summer morning...I was at my mom's house (the house I grew up in) and was looking out in the garden (I work in the garden a lot over there) and I saw little dark brown horses (about the size of a cat) and they were talking to each other...they were mother and daughter...talking about how they didn't want to be seen by humans...and all of a sudden they both unfurled wings -- the same color as their fur -- and flew over the fence and over the neighbor's yard.
The rest of the dream I spent trying to understand what I saw and telling my relatives...

Hmmm...
It was a very happy dream.

applekisses said:

maybe you need to lay off the premarin!

irresistibleb1tch said:

OMG...I didn't know about this Premarin business until you mentioned it.
This is horrible.
Those poor horses...

What is Premarin(e)?

Premarine stands for Pregnant Mares' Urine (PREgnant MARes' urINE); PMU for short (we spell it both ways, with an 'e' which is the older, original name used in Canada, and without -- which is the more popular recent spelling, and the one that is trademarked). Premarin™ (including Prempro, Premphase, and Prempac) is a drug made up of conjugated estrogens obtained from the urine of pregnant mares -- put out in many forms (pills, creams, injections, patches) and is used to reduce the symptoms of menopause in women or women who have had a hysterectomy. It is also prescribed to nearly eliminate the risk of osteoporosis (the brittling of bones) and reduce the chance of heart disease in women over 50.

What Are the Living Conditions of the Mares?


Since there are approximately 439 producing PMU farms at this time, and not having visited each one, HorseAid can only generalize based on the ones we have visited (our last visit was to Canada by our HorseAid founders in May and June of 1999, that included a side visit to Minnesota).

Pro-PMU people focus on the fact that the mares live out in 1,000+ acres pastures with their foals for up to six months of the year (on most PMU farms, mares are 115 - 125 days pregnant when the collection period begins. Estrogen production starts to peak between day 200 - 275 of pregnancy then decreases to parturition. Mares are collected for a period of 150 - 160 days with the collection period being from October 1 to March 31). PMU farmers work to maintain a constant urine volume to meet both their quota requirements and the urine grade. Mares usually produce 90 - 100 gallons of urine throughout the collection season. On a daily basis, a pleasure horse type mare will produce about 0.5 - 0.6 gallon per day while a draft type mare will produce up to 0.75 gallon per day.

Anti-PMU people focus on the fact that the pregnant mares are kept tied up indoors for at least six months out of the year. To produce Premarin, these mares are impregnated, fitted with a UCD and normally kept throughout their normal pregnancy of 11 months in stalls just 8 feet long, by 3 1/2 feet wide, by 5 feet high! Just before foaling they are taken "off line" and allowed to foal in outside paddocks (90% of the mares will carry a foal full term).

In most cases they are impregnated by natural cover (artificial insemination has even been tried in the past to "streamline" the operation) within two weeks of foaling and returned to the PMU production line again (mares that do not become pregnant within a very short time, cannot be returned to the collection barns, and probably will be sent instead to the slaughterhouse). Foals who are removed from the mare, are sometimes fattened, and then sold for slaughter (the Foals of August). (A filly foal has a less than one in 10 chance of not going to slaughter, a colt foal, less than one in 50!)

As far as the use of catheters is concerned, PMU supporters say that they are no more (and in fact our research shows they were never used industry wide) -- now "urine collection devices" (UCD's) are used. But the UCD's are not very hygienic for the mares, since it allows their urine to soak the skin of the vulva, sometimes causing severe infections and painful lesions.

As for the actual living space they have, current PMU farm guidelines state (strictly "voluntary" guidelines that have no consequences, and are not enforceable in any way -- HorseAid has carefully reviewed the guidelines and found them insufficient to protect the wellness of the mares and the thousands of foals they produce. Further, we have learned in our latest investigations, that even these inadequate guidelines are not being followed) that for horses weighing under 900 lbs. the width of the stalls should be no less than 3.5 feet in width; for horses over that weight, the width is increased to 5 feet.

This may well be large enough for the horses to lie down -- but so is a coffin for a person. Would you like to sleep in one? While pro-PMU people, PMU farm vets included, say that it's enough room to lie down and sleep, some have contradicted themselves in print by saying that "horses can sleep standing up anyway." Horses can lock their legs and doze, but they must lie down for their essential 'deep sleep' period (in the wild and in pasture, horses lie down approximately three hours for every twenty-four). As for exercise, the guidelines leave that up to the discretion of the farm manager or / and farm employees.

Pro-PMU people say, "It's 20 below zero out there in the winter, which is when the mares are confined. It's more humane to keep them inside." However, no indoor arenas or turn-out pens were observed in any of the farms we visited. There are an estimated 125 producing mares on each farm (averaged across all farms - 150, if you include reserves, "hires" and foaling/nursing mares), and to hire employees to hand-walk each one even once a day would not be cost-effective (and so, usually not done). As a result, the already too-fat mares have problems with stocking up, soreness and hoof/wall separation. At almost EVERY farm we visited, there was some form of respiratory distress evident in the mares "on-line".

In addition to the physical stresses, mentally -- horses cannot be compared to other constantly penned, tethered livestock (such as dairy cattle).

Horses are not cows!

Horses are by nature wanderers, and although it is also not right for the privately owned horse to be cooped up in a box stall day after day, this is a completely separate issue: These mares are actually tied up in front and strapped in behind. They absolutely cannot turn around or take more than two or three steps forward or backward.

As for feeding, the horses are more than adequately fed -- most farms feed hay, grain and oats, which is in excess of what the sedentary mare requires. PMU detractors say that this is to keep them in slaughter-weight for when they break down.

Guidelines state that horses should be offered water no less than twice per day. Although the volume is less, PMU farmers supposedly prefer to water as little as possible, thereby increasing the concentration of estrogen in the urine -- which is what it's all about (the farmers are under contract to Ayerst for a certain volume of urine per collection season. They are paid based on the concentration of estrogen in the urine shipped). Farmers, the low-men on the economic totem-pole in this business, are paid up to $11.00 U.S. dollars per one gallon of PMU (about $0.00275 per gram of estrogen collected).


Are the Foals Really Sent to Slaughter?

Some of the farms observed do breed quality draft and Quarter horses (and obviously care about the welfare of the horses they breed), while some use a combination (Appaloosas, Belgians, "Generics", Percherons, and Thoroughbreds) of registered and unregistered animals of pleasure and draft type purchased at local auction (the most common breed being the Quarter horse, which is coincidentally the most desirable horse breed slaughtered for human consumption). The offspring from the former are sometimes sold for show purposes and sometimes fillies are raised to go 'on line' as soon as they're able to conceive (usually at the age of 20 - 24 months), but mostly they go to slaughter.


What Can I Do?

If you are currently taking estrogen-replacement drugs, find out from your doctor or pharmacist if they are organic or synthetic. If the former, you can demand that your medication be switched to the synthetic (which reportedly have less side-effects than PMU-based ones anyhow). Many women have also been successful in using "natural" estrogen replacement approaches to hormonal shifts, and the new SOY protein studies are proving very promising (ALWAYS check with your medical doctor or health practitioner before starting or changing any estrogen replacement therapy!).

If you are truly concerned about the issue, write to the Canadian Minister of Industry and tell him how you feel. After all, the possible loss of tourism dollars may rival that of Premarine income. (Minister of Industry, House of Commons, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada KIA 0A6. Or phone: 613/995-9001).

You can also write the Canadian government: Minister, Department of Western Diversification, House of Commons, 418-M Center Block, Ottawa, Ontario KIA 0A6, and the Manitoba government to protest their funding of Ayerst's expansion plans in Canada: Premier of Manitoba, 450 Broadway, Winnipeg, Manitoba R3C 0V8.

Also write to the Department of Agriculture, P.O. Box 23394, Washington, D.C., 20026), and of course the Premarine patent holder, Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories (product control), 555 E. Lancaster Avenue, St. David's, PA 19087, 800.666.7248 (and Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories, PO Box 8299, Philadelphia, PA 19101).

You may also wish to write to: Director, Women's Health Initiatives, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892. Protest their use of Premarin in women's medical studies.

Lastly, help spread the word and let other horse lovers know about this billion dollar industry based entirely on the suffering of horses. As we ask you to do, weigh the pros and cons, and let your friends decide for themselves whether they wish to become involved in the Premarine issue...



---


The solution is really quite simple...

There are currently 9 million women taking Premarin. Educating those 9 million women (and their doctors) as to how Premarin is actually produced, and having them use one of the many synthetics now available as a substitute, will eventually dry up all the profits from Premarin production:

ZERO women taking Premarin equals ZERO Premarin produced!

link: http://www.premarin.org/
[This message was edited Tue Jul 1 7:36:38 PDT 2003 by applekisses]

How dare your dream be contaminated with thoughts of Premarin!

I love happy dreams like this. Don't you ever feel like sometimes these places are heaven?

Do you know if the horses knew that you saw them?

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

i thought this thread was the return of the scissorbaby dream when i saw it first

cborgman said:

Ahhh...scissorbaby. That would make a great evil character in a movie!

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

paging tim burton...

The little horses are you and someone close to you. Someone that you don't want people to find out about or someone that you are not in contact with anymore. Secret love? old crush? child out of wedlock? maybe an abortion? Mom's death? A divorce that left you with your father?

And being that they 'flew' away and did not 'run' away, they would be impossible to catch. This is something you can not get back.

It was not raining or snowing so it was not meant to frighten. The sun shining makes this loss OK, there are no re-dos, but thats fine with you. You have to except it, make the best and move on.

I wish you the best, you will be fine

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I don't think they did...and YES...I love dreams like this...they are so much like heaven

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

OH NOOO...not scissorbaby!

jthad1129 said:

That's sweet thanks

It WAS such a wonderful dream...just a sense of love and wonderment (did I make this word up? ) and happiness.
I didn't feel any loss...I was happy seeing that this type of thing (something so mystical and unexpected) actually existed.

applekisses said:

It sounds like a beautiful calming dream...

What am I, a psychologist?!

jthad1129 said:

---
Thad, You're way too good at this dream analyzin' thing. I should send you my dreams. They're real doozies , especially when I take Nyquil or other cold medicines. Hee Hee.
PS Our birthdays are two years and one day apart. Cool.