Why? Oh you ask Why?!

Well, why should a tool become the first thing you become enthusiastic about?

Macs...Windows machines...PC's, wait, PC=Personal Computer...Macs are Personal Computers...Macs=PC, that's another thread...

...Anyway, yes, if one who is creatively inclined, cherishes, places on a pedestal, loves, are a slave to a computer - OVER a musical instrument, which is not a tool, OVER an effing drawing pencil and paper, OVER an ACTUAL paint brush and canvas, OVER real natural curiosity, and one obsesses, enthuses over a tool, then one has lost touch with what is important creatively, in effect has dimished what is most important to create.

The tool becomes the what everything in the creative process follows, what music, art, visual and sonic, are now underneath the COMPUTER.

The focus is on a tool. The music and art in general suffers.

My advice, turn OFF your Mac next time you write a song. Turn OFF your MAC when you want to draw. Turn OFF your Mac next time you want to play an instrument.

It's a TOOL, NOT and INSTRUMENT.

Don't be afraid to scratch or dent your Mac either, those things are reserved for more delicate INSTRUMENTS. I don't care if my tools get all used up, but I do care when my guitar or violin gets a scratch or dent.

Go get an actual mixing board and multitrack recorders that don't have distracting stuff like eMail programs and Instant Messaging applications, and browsers and photo imaging apps, all that DISTRACTS the creative flow.

So don't go up on a stage in an effing APPLE COMPUTER STORE and tell me how wonderful a TOOL is. I want to hear how wonderful a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT IS, how it can lift you soul. Give you true happiness. Oh and by the way, Turn Off you TV while your at it too.

(I know, this could of gone in the Musicians Discussion, but I wanted the general public to read!)






.oOo.
[This message was edited Thu Jun 19 11:11:40 PDT 2003 by FlyingCloudPassenger]

OK!

I draw on my computer, so that would be impossible.

who ever said that a mac or a pc was an instrument?

there are plenty of people that can play a musical instrument, but still use a mac or pc to record/edit. prince, lenny, meshell, bjork, etc.

there are plenty of people who use a computer to record and edit and they don't have email or anything else installed.

i can understand where you are coming from, because i kinda felt the same way about 7 years ago until i actually took the time and saw the benefits of the digital domain.

i like to record and i like to do it fast. by tracking with pro-tools on my mac it allows me to do that. and it makes me very happy.

What a pile of steaming bullshit.

I'm a coder, I've been coding all my life. I don't know if I'm an "artist" but I'm certainly a "creator". I create technology, and I create videogames. Honestly, what kind of luddite thinking leads you to differentiate between one "instrument" of creativity and another? If someone uses any tool or instrument to create something, what's the difference?

In the right hands, a fucking Commodore 64 SID audio processor is as valid a "musical instrument" as a violin. So let's get past this po-faced luddite blinkered elitism of "art" please. An artist or a creative person will create with whatever instrument best suits there needs. Sometimes that means making a sculpture out of elephant dung, sometimes it means banging out a rhythm on a drum, sometimes it means creating a 3D animation in a computer animation package such as Maya.

Creativity is limited by the person doing the creating. The tools are just a medium. If a creator lets a tool or instrument become the means as well as the ends of their creation, that is no different to any of the indulgent art exercises that litter our great art galleries with "explorations of shadow and light" etc etc. It's all a part of evolving the medium.

ian said:

very well put ian!

djdredd said:

Thank you sir!

ian said:

OUR great galleries?! Music can be played anywhere. Hmm, computers...evolving medium...hmmm...okay, and then you can check your email as you are evolving and exploring new artistic creations with your latest Dell PowerLaptop 3000. Okay.


Now, I don't know why you got all offended by this. Got so worked up. Well...now come to think of it, I think I have an idea...because most computer enthusiasts take their machines/tools very seriously. In fact, very personally. The sad aspect of this is that it's just a machine.

It can do MANY multitasking like things, yes. But I think that computers are marketed to people with the idea that it can do MANY things. All in one machine.

But I think, I, me, that as a result, it can cloud a person to creatively get to where they are going creatively.

Sure they can get there faster with all the processor stuff and megahertz that, but it is a tool that allows one to do many things, ie- image processing, emailing, communication, video editing, music sequencing, sound design, graphic design, accounting, writing, etc. but doesn't allow mastering of any.

But you still have to read a bunch books, go to school, spend hours with manuals because you think that if you know every part of the software you will use your $500 investment at it's fullest.

Computer makers, you know all the makers, and platforms, they've succesfully convinced people that without their expensive, brand loyaling (because you have to buy their upggrades), over bloated software and computers, you will NOT be able to be all you can be. False.

I rather do this than do this

Go do more of this over this and I think you may understand. Just try it.

Oh and maybe a little of this afterwards will release the tension!

djdredd said:

I've been using a PC for what 10 years now, and there was a time that I defended a certain platform over another, that I would protect my computer from any little scratch. Now I don't, as long as it runs and I can see things clearly on the screen, tis all good. Don't care if gets scratched, if it's the latest model. Or if I have to live the "Digital Lifestyle", please. Lately I've been thinking about this.

I think too many kids and people in general are obsessed with brands, platforms and labels, PS2, Sega, Windows NT, Mac, X-Box...rather than the actual creating.

Anyway, back to one point you made "there are plenty of people who use a computer to record and edit and they don't have email or anything else installed.", YES, BUT you still have the OS, the OPERATING SYSTEM to deal with, latency, recording resolutions, freezes, crashes...system tweaking, glitches...it gets all in the way!

Which computer do you think Prince uses now to make music? In Graffiti Bridge he was shown using one, but they were much simpler and he still created great music, but that was the movies...I'm sure he still uses those fabulous boards, it's what works, what allows one to concentrate and put ideas down fast, or create something without hassles or distractions.

VinaBlue said:

Cute! Mind if I use it?

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

Uh, we're not all musicians.
I am a dancer and a graphic artist. I choose to create my art on a computer and wouldn't have it any other way.

I really don't know what point you are trying to make here FCP. Oh well.

Any anti-technology stance regarding creativity is nonsensical - there was a time when paint and brushes was considered high technology, and there was a time when the piano was a scary new piece of hardware that people had to get used to. In the right hands, those tools of creativity created some incredible art. The same goes for any other technology used for creative purposes.

For me, computing technology is the instrument of my creativity. For my wife however, it is merely something she types up letters on and checks email with. Similarly, if I pick up a saxophone I can make some ugly squawking noises - it is effectily just a big lump of metal that makes noise, but to some musicians that lump of metal comes alive and is the means by which they are creative. I don't see any difference.

since it seems your argument is dependent upon the distinction between a tool and an instruement, you need to define why one thing can be defined as an instrument and not a tool, and vice versa.

Websters defines an instrument as 1:a thing by means of which something is done (thus a PC can be an instrument), and 2: a tool or implement.

and tool is defined as any hand implement, instrument etc used for some work, thus a quitar can be a tool.

in short, the two words can be used interchangeably and don't need to be differntiated.

your argument is merely a semantic rambling which trips over its own meanings but in the end it doesn't have one.

dumbass said:

Phew! I thought I was the only one who couldn't extract any meaning in all that... well said.

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

You already did!

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

My first demos (4 years ago) were made with a MacSE30, which was about 10 years old at the time. I borowed a 4track to record the vocals. At that time, I had no internet, so no email checking while working on music.

Recently I had major problems with my soundcard, latency, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah and it SUCKED ASS! At that time I remembered the power of my voice to make music. I realized that the music was in ME, not the computer.

In Graffiti Bridge, Prince looks to be using the same computer I used 4 years ago, which was the latest in 1991. He probably has the latest one now too, but we all know he can pick up any musical instrument and record into a tape deck. I remember a documentary for the symbol album where Levi said Prince would bring in his ideas on a crappy boom box and they would learn the songs off that and record them.

Back to me. I still have windows 98, no matter how many people look at me funny and say "Why?". Kiss my ass! It works and I'm not gonna mess with something that works. I tried to upgrade my motherboard a few months ago and that was a DISASTER. I have a 600mHz processor. I'm still learning Cakewalk Pro Audio 9. I will grow at my own pace. No windows XP for me! I've seen it at my mom's house and I don't like it.

djdredd said:

BJORK! :WORSHIP:

VinaBlue said:

Phew! I thought I was the only one who understood the difference in letting the computer/geek machine rule your work/life rather than using the analog and letting it you get on with your work... well said.



.
[This message was edited Thu Jun 19 16:12:43 PDT 2003 by FlyingCloudPassenger]

dumbass said:

Hey! You forgot a more detailed defenition, here you go:
tooln.
A device, such as a saw, used to perform or facilitate manual or mechanical work.

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

But I will confess, I know nothing (or VERY little) about analog recording. I learned to record my musical ideas on sequencers first.



And that is making it difficult to learn digital audio, since its based on analog recording, it's just virtual. I've used a 4-track only a few times and I took 2 semesters of recording in college verses 6 electronic music courses in college and high school, and having that at home to work on. I wish I knew more about analog recording.

So for me, even a 4 track can get in the way, because I dont know how to use it. I can sing, and play keyboard parts and know how I want to put them together, and that's what I meant, the music comes from me.

I love my computer, when it works.

I like to make rhythms by hitting two laptops together.

Cha, cha, cha...

rhythm-shmythm
[This message was edited Thu Jun 19 16:58:11 PDT 2003 by mcmeekle]

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

Use whatever gets the job done, whatever works for you. There is no case to be made for or against newer technology in this instance - there is no point in any of this. A crusty old Atari ST ran my home recording studio for over 10 years before I replaced it. How "old" does my equipment have to be before it is considered "artistic" and "non geeky" by the luddite brigade?

Hey Vina... Win 95/98 is a pile of shite, completely unstable and unreliable. But if it works for you, great. Whatever helps you get the job done.

Hear that? It's the sound of the purpose of this thread, crashing down around our ears...

FlyingCloudPassenger said:

That's not a full or appropriate definition when discussing computing technology. Additionally, since there is no difference between a "tool" and an "instrument" - they are both "things that you use to get something done" - your point makes no sense whatsoever.

So all the new synths and samplers are not instruments either right?
I guess to you, woodwinds, strings and percussions are the only things that could be called instruments.

Why don't you try and tell that to Korg, Roland, E-MU, Akai and all the other companies who until today thought they manufacture musical instruments.

VinaBlue said:

You talk about problems with latency, so why not change to winXP? it'll reduce the latency of your sound card

MissCute said:

What?

No, no, no...those are instruments, of course...those are specific instruments that are self contained and serve one purpose...ONE purpose, to make music. I'm not a purist, I'm just saying, don't let the computer lead you. Let the music and the musical instruments, anolog and digital take you were you should.

ian said:

The purpose of my thread crashing around my ears...your point makes no sense...ludite this ludedite that..thanks. Thanks for not getting it.

Oh well, you know, I don't sit here and go through my posts like an essay or term paper...I just post what I think at that moment and let it wirte itself. I stand by what I posted at the very top.

Simply, again, don't let the computer overtake your creativity. It's a tool. It is what it is. Musical instruments, analog or digital, are specific to a purpose, to create music, that's wonderful. Let them help you reach that higher level to another place.

Cool though that I got a discussion going, no matter if a few decided to bounce on the other. Tis cool. This is not a defining thing for me. Leter, time to turn of the computer. It's cold just like it's users.

I have a Commodore 64, does that count?

MissCute said:

I don't have latency problems anymore. I figured out my soundcard, and it's 2 years old, so I worry about it not being compatible with windows xp. Lots of people have told me that Windows 98 is the best OS for music making. No one has all the answers.

ian said:

Yes, this pile of shite works for me. Has been pretty stable and reliable. I just didn't know how to use my soundcard right. I made room on my hard drive, which was causing the latency problem.

This article here outlines what you need to create music on your computer:

http://www.tascam.com/sup.../index.php

This includes a section on operating systems.