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Reply #30 posted 05/09/03 1:16am

Teacher

I believe, but am not certain, that the US is the only country that it's legal in, all other countries that I know of has banned declawing a long time ago.
From what I can see on this thread, most people think that it has to do with the cat scratching the furniture up and that's the only thing they "fix" by declawing, but like Azure proved with the water gun that's fixable without torture. The cat needs its claws for any number of things -grabbing a hold if it falls or slips, scratching itself, if you as the owner or keeper of the pet throws it down from somewhere like the kitchen counter the cat uses a small part of the claw to steady itself when it lands. Without its claws the cat could get hurt a lot.

And now I get a little nasty: For the dumb fuckers who say that they never saw or heard any complaint or pain from the cat either on the day of the torture or after, u should get some other pet than a cat cos u obviously don't know jack shit about them. The cat is the proudest animal on earth, it would never stoop to show pain to its torturer. Also, any show of pain or weakness is an invitation to be damaged or killed in the animal society. If u think it's ok to declaw your cat, go to a hospital and have ONE of your nails pulled out. Get back to me when u're done. Assholes mad
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Reply #31 posted 05/09/03 1:47am

Marrk

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Teacher said:

I believe, but am not certain, that the US is the only country that it's legal in, all other countries that I know of has banned declawing a long time ago.
From what I can see on this thread, most people think that it has to do with the cat scratching the furniture up and that's the only thing they "fix" by declawing, but like Azure proved with the water gun that's fixable without torture. The cat needs its claws for any number of things -grabbing a hold if it falls or slips, scratching itself, if you as the owner or keeper of the pet throws it down from somewhere like the kitchen counter the cat uses a small part of the claw to steady itself when it lands. Without its claws the cat could get hurt a lot.

And now I get a little nasty: For the dumb fuckers who say that they never saw or heard any complaint or pain from the cat either on the day of the torture or after, u should get some other pet than a cat cos u obviously don't know jack shit about them. The cat is the proudest animal on earth, it would never stoop to show pain to its torturer. Also, any show of pain or weakness is an invitation to be damaged or killed in the animal society. If u think it's ok to declaw your cat, go to a hospital and have ONE of your nails pulled out. Get back to me when u're done. Assholes mad


well said! I have two cats and the fact people do this to preserve their bloody precious furniture really bloody angers me.

Don't get a frigging Cat if your couch means more to you.disbelief
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Reply #32 posted 05/09/03 8:56am

pejman

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AzureStar said:

More information on this:

Unlike most mammals who walk on the soles of the paws or feet, cats are digitigrade, which means they walk on their toes. Their back, shoulder, paw and leg joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and nerves are naturally designed to support and distribute the cat's weight across its toes as it walks, runs and climbs. A cat's claws are used for balance, for exercising, and for stretching the muscles in their legs, back, shoulders, and paws. They stretch these muscles by digging their claws into a surface and pulling back against their own clawhold - similar to isometric exercising for humans. This is the only way a cat can exercise, stretch and tone the muscles of its back and shoulders. The toes help the foot meet the ground at a precise angle to keep the leg, shoulder and back muscles and joints in proper alignment. Removal of the last digits of the toes drastically alters the conformation of their feet and causes the feet to meet the ground at an unnatural angle that can cause back pain similar to that in humans caused by wearing improper shoes.








Azure, I am impressed. This is more serious than what I imagined. I hate it when any animal has pain inflicted on them for any reason. I love animals! Thanks for the info.
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Reply #33 posted 05/09/03 9:05am

applekisses

AzureStar said:

Good... because it can be extremely painful for some cats. If people get their cats declawed after they are a year or two old, they run a chance of the cat not getting back feeling in their paws or run the risk of the cat always being very sore in those areas.

For that reason, I have never declawed a cat... I won't even consider it. They were meant to have them, if you can't handle them acting natural or training them to not do certain things (scratching, clawing on furniture, etc)... then maybe a cat isn't for you. There is always the option of clipping the cat's nails, too... I do Izzy's once every two weeks.

Poor kitties! sad


I KNOW sad I'm glad it's outlawed there too...I wish it was outlawed everywhere and people would just get off their lazy butts and try to train their cats.
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Reply #34 posted 05/09/03 10:04am

pejman

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applekisses said:

AzureStar said:

Good... because it can be extremely painful for some cats. If people get their cats declawed after they are a year or two old, they run a chance of the cat not getting back feeling in their paws or run the risk of the cat always being very sore in those areas.

For that reason, I have never declawed a cat... I won't even consider it. They were meant to have them, if you can't handle them acting natural or training them to not do certain things (scratching, clawing on furniture, etc)... then maybe a cat isn't for you. There is always the option of clipping the cat's nails, too... I do Izzy's once every two weeks.

Poor kitties! sad


I KNOW sad I'm glad it's outlawed there too...I wish it was outlawed everywhere and people would just get off their lazy butts and try to train their cats.




they started the no smoking thing here and it seems like it spread nationwide...I'm sure the animal rights folks will be all over this.
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Reply #35 posted 05/09/03 10:09am

Essence

What about laws against ear and tail cropping? So sad seeing a happy dog with it's little stump tail trying to wag...
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Reply #36 posted 05/09/03 10:24am

pejman

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Essence said:

What about laws against ear and tail cropping? So sad seeing a happy dog with it's little stump tail trying to wag...



I totally agree essence! I used to breed pit bulls and I never cut their ears! Most peopledo that to make their pits look hard and mean... me I like their cute floppy ears and imagine the pain they go thru when this is done especially as pups...it ain't like piercing a babies ears that's fa sho!!
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Reply #37 posted 05/09/03 10:46am

Essence

pejman said:

Essence said:

What about laws against ear and tail cropping? So sad seeing a happy dog with it's little stump tail trying to wag...



I totally agree essence! I used to breed pit bulls and I never cut their ears! Most peopledo that to make their pits look hard and mean... me I like their cute floppy ears and imagine the pain they go thru when this is done especially as pups...it ain't like piercing a babies ears that's fa sho!!


You didn't mention their tails man, I've never seen a bull terrier with a tail. It's an amputation of a limb, not like piercing nah...
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Reply #38 posted 05/09/03 11:06am

pejman

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Essence said:

pejman said:

Essence said:

What about laws against ear and tail cropping? So sad seeing a happy dog with it's little stump tail trying to wag...



I totally agree essence! I used to breed pit bulls and I never cut their ears! Most peopledo that to make their pits look hard and mean... me I like their cute floppy ears and imagine the pain they go thru when this is done especially as pups...it ain't like piercing a babies ears that's fa sho!!


You didn't mention their tails man, I've never seen a bull terrier with a tail. It's an amputation of a limb, not like piercing nah...



that's even worse!!! I hate the word AMPUTATION let alone the action of it... I bred pits and it's not common for others to cut their tails but as far as Bull terriers, Boxers, Rotties, Pinchers those commonly get their tails chopped once again for looks... I don't like it either way...What if somebody cut our limb off and we were walkin around with half an ass cheek or sumfin, that would suck... disbelief
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Reply #39 posted 05/09/03 11:21am

applekisses

Essence said:

What about laws against ear and tail cropping? So sad seeing a happy dog with it's little stump tail trying to wag...


There should be laws against that too.
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Reply #40 posted 05/09/03 11:37am

Essence

pejman said:

Essence said:

pejman said:

Essence said:

What about laws against ear and tail cropping? So sad seeing a happy dog with it's little stump tail trying to wag...



I totally agree essence! I used to breed pit bulls and I never cut their ears! Most peopledo that to make their pits look hard and mean... me I like their cute floppy ears and imagine the pain they go thru when this is done especially as pups...it ain't like piercing a babies ears that's fa sho!!


You didn't mention their tails man, I've never seen a bull terrier with a tail. It's an amputation of a limb, not like piercing nah...



that's even worse!!! I hate the word AMPUTATION let alone the action of it... I bred pits and it's not common for others to cut their tails but as far as Bull terriers, Boxers, Rotties, Pinchers those commonly get their tails chopped once again for looks... I don't like it either way...What if somebody cut our limb off and we were walkin around with half an ass cheek or sumfin, that would suck... disbelief


You know the amputee puppy is in pain for it's owners preference yeah. In the UK the winner of dog show Crufts was rumoured to of had plastic surgery to be perfect to "pedigree" rules of purity.

The dogs bred too purely end up with breathing problems (Bad noses, bad mouths, saggy cheeks), go blind, heart problems etc. all to adhere to a rulebook...
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Reply #41 posted 05/09/03 12:07pm

pejman

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Essence said:

The dogs bred too purely end up with breathing problems (Bad noses, bad mouths, saggy cheeks), go blind, heart problems etc. all to adhere to a rulebook...


That disgusts me.
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Reply #42 posted 05/09/03 7:18pm

TheMax

My kitty, the one pictured in my avatar, was declawed by her previous owner. In her previous life, she lived with her litter-mate sister, and they were inseparable. After they were declawed, they turned against one another, and the original owners were forced to separate them. I was then offered the chance to adopt one of the kitties. She was 3 years old at the time.

It seems likely that the procedure was responsible for the change in their behavior toward one another. The procedure may have occurred too late in their lives (or as others have suggested, it should never be performed at all). Ask any man who was circumcised as an infant, WITHOUT ANESTHESIA, how it felt - you'll get a blank stare. There is no memory of it whatsoever. Then ask other men who had the same operation, WITH anesthesia, performed as a child or young adult - completely different answer, I assume the same would be true for kitties.

"Amputation" is a loaded term. None of us wants to have a limb or appendage "amputated." But unlike the mountain climber who recently cut off his own arm to save his life, those who undergo the procedure electively benefit from the magic of general anesthesia. The same is true for kitties. During the operation, general anesthesia is used, and there is no pain. The concerns about postoperative pain are very legitimate, but good caretakers can minimize pain after surgery.

Sure, declwing is generally performed to prevent cats from damaging furniture. These cats are rendered defenseless and MUST be kept indoors, away from predators including cruel humans. If cats could talk, I'm sure most would refuse the procedure. But I strongly suspect that proud tomcats would decline bilateral orchiectomy (removal of their testes - so-called "neutering") and female cats would pass on total hysterectomies (including their ovaries - "spaying") if asked in advance.

We, and the humane societies, willingly perform these other surgeries to prevent cat overpopulation, right? Well, then why not perform simple vasectomies and tubal ligations? These surgical procedures address fertility ONLY. Instead, we remove ALL reproductive organs. The reason is simple - we don't like sexual behavior in our pet cats - such as spraying, howling, "heat," etc - just as we don't like clawing on furniture. Is there a double standard being applied here? What would our cats prefer?

In any event, I prefer compassion. If you are entrusted with the care of an animal, make compassionate decisions for them. If declawing will improve your compatibility with your new kitty, insist on early, skilled management with a qualified kitty surgeon. Don't wait until the cat is an adult - it seems unfair. The same applies to sterilization operations.

In my opinion, it is no more immoral to declaw a kitty as it is to remove all of their sexual organs. Timing, generous use of anesthetics and analgesics, and subsequent protection and love of the animal are what matter most to me. My sweet kitty has learned to adjust to life without claws. She plays, "claws" anything she wants without scratching, and enjoys a serene indoor life. It could be worse for her.
"When they tell me 2 walk a straight line, I put on crooked shoes"
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Reply #43 posted 05/10/03 5:59pm

TheMax

Speaking of surgery on those unable to provide consent, what do my fellow orgers think about male circumcision?
chainsaw
[This message was edited Sat May 10 18:00:43 PDT 2003 by TheMax]
"When they tell me 2 walk a straight line, I put on crooked shoes"
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Reply #44 posted 05/10/03 8:17pm

AzureStar

TheMax said:


Sure, declwing is generally performed to prevent cats from damaging furniture. These cats are rendered defenseless and MUST be kept indoors, away from predators including cruel humans. If cats could talk, I'm sure most would refuse the procedure. But I strongly suspect that proud tomcats would decline bilateral orchiectomy (removal of their testes - so-called "neutering") and female cats would pass on total hysterectomies (including their ovaries - "spaying") if asked in advance.

We, and the humane societies, willingly perform these other surgeries to prevent cat overpopulation, right? Well, then why not perform simple vasectomies and tubal ligations? These surgical procedures address fertility ONLY. Instead, we remove ALL reproductive organs. The reason is simple - we don't like sexual behavior in our pet cats - such as spraying, howling, "heat," etc - just as we don't like clawing on furniture. Is there a double standard being applied here? What would our cats prefer?



I have heard that part of the reason for complete removal of the reproductive organs, expecially the uterus in female cats, is so that it is not a source of infection over time... after the surgery. However, I am not clear on that.

But, as far as doing a complete operation to make the cat sterile, there isn't as much risk of, if any, that the prodecure will harm the cat emotionally. And, the pain during recovery isn't anything compared to what a cat goes through after being declawed. I also feel that if we are going to take our cat in to make them sterile, to prevent overpopulation, we may as well remove all reproductive organs since they're in there anyway, to prevent those other things you mentioned, the spraying, being in heat, etc.. if they were left, like you said, they would still have the instinct to breed, etc... so, it's not like we're just taking the cats in to have the operation to prevent those things and making them sterile to prevent overpopulation comes second. You know?

Anyway... as far are the male circumcision... I had a hard time deciding whether or not to have the procedure performed on my son when he was born. I did decide to go ahead with it... but I had a difficult time with it prior to and afterwards, especially knowing they perform it without any anesthesia. That was really very hard for me.

(I didn't realize that was your kitty... she's very pretty).
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